Ferguson

[Packer]

I wasn't implying all that Jack. I was just trying to say that cops shouldn't be trained to use lethal weapons in a non lethal manner.

[jackstraw94086]

I wasn't implying all that Jack. I was just trying to say that cops shouldn't be trained to use lethal weapons in a non lethal manner.

I wasn't necessarily aiming it at you. Just in general.

Your point about them not taking knee shots because they probably shouldn't be taking any shot at all is valid.b But Jeff's point that as long as the shot is going to be taken why does it it seem to be a money shot is also valid. The suicide by cop guy with the knife probably could have been put down relatively easily.

[Packer]

Well, maybe I was kind of implying what you said. Point taken anyways.

[Listening]

Eric Holder op-ed in the St. Louis Dispatch

http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion...567f27a0d.html

Since the Aug. 9 shooting death of Michael Brown, the nation and the world have witnessed the unrest that has gripped Ferguson, Mo. At the core of these demonstrations is a demand for answers about the circumstances of this young man’s death and a broader concern about the state of our criminal justice system.

At a time when so much may seem uncertain, the people of Ferguson can have confidence that the Justice Department intends to learn — in a fair and thorough manner — exactly what happened.

Today, I will be in Ferguson to be briefed on the federal civil rights investigation that I have closely monitored since I launched it more than one week ago. I will meet personally with community leaders, FBI investigators and federal prosecutors from the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division and the U.S. Attorney’s Office to receive detailed briefings on the status of this case.

The full resources of the Department of Justice have been committed to the investigation into Michael Brown’s death. This inquiry will take time to complete, but we have already taken significant steps. Approximately 40 FBI agents and some of the Civil Rights Division’s most experienced prosecutors have been deployed to lead this process, with the assistance of the United States Attorney in St. Louis. Hundreds of people have already been interviewed in connection with this matter. On Monday, at my direction, a team of federal medical examiners conducted an independent autopsy.

We understand the need for an independent investigation, and we hope that the independence and thoroughness of our investigation will bring some measure of calm to the tensions in Ferguson. In order to begin the healing process, however, we must first see an end to the acts of violence in the streets of Ferguson. Although these acts have been committed by a very small minority — and, in many cases, by individuals from outside Ferguson — they seriously undermine, rather than advance, the cause of justice. And they interrupt the deeper conversation that the legitimate demonstrators are trying to advance.

The Justice Department will defend the right of protesters to peacefully demonstrate and for the media to cover a story that must be told. But violence cannot be condoned. I urge the citizens of Ferguson who have been peacefully exercising their First Amendment rights to join with law enforcement in condemning the actions of looters, vandals and others seeking to inflame tensions and sow discord.

Law enforcement has a role to play in reducing tensions, as well. As the brother of a retired law enforcement officer, I know firsthand that our men and women in uniform perform their duties in the face of tremendous threats and significant personal risk. They put their lives on the line every day, and they often have to make split-second decisions.

At the same time, good law enforcement requires forging bonds of trust between the police and the public. This trust is all-important, but it is also fragile. It requires that force be used in appropriate ways. Enforcement priorities and arrest patterns must not lead to disparate treatment under the law, even if such treatment is unintended. And police forces should reflect the diversity of the communities they serve.

Over the years, we have made significant progress in ensuring that this is the case. But progress is not an endpoint; it is a measure of effort and of commitment. Constructive dialogue should continue — but it must also be converted into concrete action. And it is painfully clear, in cities and circumstances across our great nation, that more progress, more dialogue, and more action is needed.

This is my pledge to the people of Ferguson: Our investigation into this matter will be full, it will be fair, and it will be independent. And beyond the investigation itself, we will work with the police, civil rights leaders, and members of the public to ensure that this tragedy can give rise to new understanding — and robust action — aimed at bridging persistent gaps between law enforcement officials and the communities we serve. Long after the events of Aug. 9 have receded from the headlines, the Justice Department will continue to stand with this community.

As we move forward together, I ask for the public’s cooperation and patience. And I urge anyone with information related to the shooting to contact the FBI by dialing 800-CALL-FBI, option 4.

Eric H. Holder Jr. is attorney general of the United States.

[JustSteve]

Also, why can't cops figure out how to shoot to incapacitate as opposed to shooting to kill?

That is not the purpose of a gun. Imagine trying to hit a moving leg or flailing arm vs. the chest? You aim for the biggest target. The only time you pull out and fire a gun is for lethal purposes, a last resort.

[Packer]

The suicide by cop guy with the knife probably could have been put down relatively easily.

Some homeowner tried this on 44/seashore a couple weeks back and the cops pumped him full of lead but he didn't die and now he's looking at two decades behind bars.

[york707]

That is not the purpose of a gun. Imagine trying to hit a moving leg or flailing arm vs. the chest? You aim for the biggest target. The only time you pull out and fire a gun is for lethal purposes, a last resort.

Fair, but there are other non-lethal uses of force available.

[york707]

Billy Bragg came into town for a last minute show (with Joe Purdy) at The Royale, a local public house (and definitely not a music venue, although I used to DJ there about 7 years ago) owned by a very civic-minded person, to play a show in solidarity with the people of Ferguson.

[Packer]

Here you go

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=e94_1408294281

[BlueDevil50]

Fair, but there are other non-lethal uses of force available.

You never want to be below the suspect on the ladder of force. Would you try to taser someone that had a weapon that could kill you?

[york707]

You never want to be below the suspect on the ladder of force. Would you try to taser someone that had a weapon that could kill you?

I guy with a knife can't be tasered?

[Gribbz]

CNN host: Nat. Guard said ‘you never know’ what Ferguson ‘n*ggers’ are going to do

[betao]

So a CNN host heard from someone that apparently heard from someone else that heard a Nat'l Guard person say the n-word.

Does anyone else think that the only thing that article is going to do is stir people up even more?

[Gribbz]

The article states that a National Guardsman said that to a CNN producer. I mean, I guess Lemon and/or the producer could be lying... but I doubt it.

[betao]

I don’t think that anyone is necessarily lying, but I just see it as lazy reporting with only the intent to provoke more people. “Some guy told used the n-word infront of someone else that works for us”. I mean, seriously?

Reporting like this is going to start turning people against the Nat’l Guard. All because of what one person may have said. It’s going to further divide the sides, and I don’t think we need that to happen.

[Gribbz]

Welcome to network news. Anyway, I'm sure the citizens of Ferguson have heard worse in the past week. Doubt violence will escalate because of one racist shitbag. However, I think this story counters the "Oh, the National Guard are coming in, everything's going to be okay" narrative I've been seeing here and there. I wish the producer would have gotten the Guardsman's name and exposed him.

[jackstraw94086]

That is not the purpose of a gun. Imagine trying to hit a moving leg or flailing arm vs. the chest? You aim for the biggest target. The only time you pull out and fire a gun is for lethal purposes, a last resort.

killing people that don't pose an immediate threat to personal harm is not the purpose of a gun (which a man with a knife at a distance does not yet). You know why you can't imagine hitting a moving limb? Because you're not trained to, they are. I know cops from two different cities who confirmed that they undergo periodic retraining on this very thing. They said they don't pull out a gun unless the potential for it ending in lethal force is understood, but it doesn't necessarily mean they put a bullet in the chest immediately if they feel they have time to fire another shot if the first does not put the person down.

[chairmenmeow47]

Welcome to network news. Anyway, I'm sure the citizens of Ferguson have heard worse in the past week. Doubt violence will escalate because of one racist shitbag. However, I think this story counters the "Oh, the National Guard are coming in, everything's going to be okay" narrative I've been seeing here and there. I wish the producer would have gotten the Guardsman's name and exposed him.

exactly.

[Listening]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us...isit.html?_r=0

Shooting Accounts Differ as Holder Schedules Visit to Ferguson

-Some of the accounts seem to agree on how the fatal altercation initially unfolded: with a struggle between the officer, Darren Wilson, and the teenager, Michael Brown. Officer Wilson was inside his patrol car at the time, while Mr. Brown, who was unarmed, was leaning in through an open window.

Many witnesses also agreed on what happened next: Officer Wilson’s firearm went off inside the car, Mr. Brown ran away, the officer got out of his car and began firing toward Mr. Brown, and then Mr. Brown stopped, turned around and faced the officer.

-But on the crucial moments that followed, the accounts differ sharply, officials say. Some witnesses say that Mr. Brown, 18, moved toward Officer Wilson, possibly in a threatening manner, when the officer shot him dead. But others say that Mr. Brown was not moving and may even have had his hands up when he was killed.

-Contrary to what several witnesses have told law enforcement officials, Mr. Bosley said that the officer then reached out of the window with his left hand and grabbed Mr. Brown by the throat.

-However, law enforcement officials say witnesses and forensic analysis have shown that Officer Wilson did sustain an injury during the struggle in the car.

-According to his account to the Ferguson police, Officer Wilson said that Mr. Brown had lowered his arms and moved toward him, law enforcement officials said. Fearing that the teenager was going to attack him, the officer decided to use deadly force. Some witnesses have backed up that account. Others, however — including Mr. Johnson — have said that Mr. Brown did not move toward the officer before the final shots were fired.

-The F.B.I., Mr. Bosley said, pressed Mr. Johnson to say how high Mr. Brown’s hands were. Mr. Johnson said that his hands were not that high, and that one was lower than the other, because he appeared to be “favoring it,” the lawyer said.

-James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown’s hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.

“I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him,” Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. “The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.”

[mountmccabe]

I don’t think that anyone is necessarily lying, but I just see it as lazy reporting with only the intent to provoke more people. “Some guy told used the n-word infront of someone else that works for us”. I mean, seriously?

Reporting like this is going to start turning people against the Nat’l Guard. All because of what one person may have said. It’s going to further divide the sides, and I don’t think we need that to happen.

Yeah, talking about the racists in the National Guard are going to make people think there are racists in the National Guard.

This must be why the police are trying to keep the media from doing their jobs, because otherwise the media will report the horrific things the police are doing and saying. If the media would go away the police could spend more time calming down the situation by shooting tear gas at people.

[betao]

Yeah, talking about the racists in the National Guard are going to make people think there are racists in the National Guard.

This must be why the police are trying to keep the media from doing their jobs, because otherwise the media will report the horrific things the police are doing and saying. If the media would go away the police could spend more time calming down the situation by shooting tear gas at people.

You and I see a bit differently, I guess. I just see this as reporting for the sake of future ratings. I'm trying to see it from a perspective of hopefully calming everyone down (everyone meaning the people that are rioting dangerously and not any peaceful protestors) until we hear all of that facts, as opposed to a phrase that may/may not have been said from one person that's may just continue to stir things up even worse. To me, that's not worth more rioting.

[Listening]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/m...e04d027d1.html

-"We will have no comment about any evidence or statement from witnesses that are presented to the grand jury," said Ed Magee, a spokesman for McCulloch's office. "All evidence from both the St. Louis County police investigation and the FBI's will be presented to the grand jury."

-Magee said if the grand jury does not indict Wilson, all evidence and statements will be released immediately. If he is indicted, the evidence will be presented at trial.

[Gribbz]

Until we hear all of that facts, as opposed to a phrase that may/may not have been said from one person that's may just continue to stir things up even worse.

I'm not sure why you're doubting that the statement was made. Such a statement makes sense when you look at how law enforcement and the local government has handled this. Like I said, it's certainly *possible* that Lemon and the aforementioned CNN producer made it all up... it just doesn't seem likely.

[heart cooks brain]

let's be real. there's at least one member of the missouri national guard who would say that. thinking otherwise it stupid. which is why i'm with batao that it's not news.

[Gribbz]

Yeah, no big deal. Who gives a shit if cops, soldiers, politicians, anyone who's sworn to protect the general public, people with power, etc. are racist. Move along and say thank you.

[guedita]

Yeah, no big deal. Who gives a shit if cops, soldiers, politicians, anyone who's sworn to protect the general public, people with power, etc. are racist. Move along and say thank you.

And ladies, be flattered when men scream obscenities are you on the street! It's just how things are!

[Miroir Noir]

This is all so stupid. So called "law-and-order" right wing racist rednecks go on talk radio and complain about how violent and lawless black people are. Lefty internet white knights go on Twitter and blab on and on about how everything the police do is racist or stupid or evil. I feel so bad for Mike Brown and his family -- we've heaped a whole travesty of a circus on top of the travesty of his death.

I also think that at this point, both the protesters and the police are playing up their assigned roles in this farce because there are so many cameras and aimless reporters wandering around looking to document any outrage, real or imagined, by either side. It's beginning to remind me of when the second month of Occupy Wall Street stopped being about income inequality and corporate greed and criminality, and started becoming protests about protests.

[heart cooks brain]

Yeah, no big deal. Who gives a shit if cops, soldiers, politicians, anyone who's sworn to protect the general public, people with power, etc. are racist. Move along and say thank you.

And ladies, be flattered when men scream obscenities are you on the street! It's just how things are!

it's one fuckin' guy. if he's an officer, rallying troops to get the darkies then yeah, it's a problem, but one guy saying some racist shit is not in and of itself indicative of systemic racism. that's not to say he shouldn't be relived of his duty, whoever he is.

[Packer]

[Gribbz]

it's one fuckin' guy. if he's an officer, rallying troops to get the darkies then yeah, it's a problem, but one guy saying some racist shit is not in and of itself indicative of systemic racism. that's not to say he shouldn't be relived of his duty, whoever he is.

I probably wouldn't be that open about my racism if my peers/co-workers were against it. He said this to a TV producer. I mean, "allegedly"...