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Thread: Hillary love-fest 2016...

  1. #1

    Default Hillary love-fest 2016...

    ...the thread in which we discuss all things Hillary and why this country is ready to make history.



    *you're welcome bobert

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    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    David Gilmour approves this message. #ImWithHer

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/it...e-658888259754

    James Carville made a good point last night, "Why would the Democrats nominate someone who's not even a Democrat?" he asked. We've had two successful two-term presidents and sandwiched in between, a disastrous Republican president. Why change course now?

    Besides, give me one good example of a successful socialist country. I doubt if you can. Sure, some countries have implemented socialized medicine and a few other reforms which might be seen as socialist, but socialism, as defined by wiki:

    "Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;[7] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.[8] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these.[9] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[10] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

    obviously Socialism as a central form of govt is much broader than a few govt controlled services, and, has never been successful anywhere, ever, and, runs counter to our founding principles.

    And, scares the hell out of folks thereby making Bernie a tough sell in a general election, lets be honest.

    Hillary might not be the perfect candidate (has there ever been one ever, really?) but she's a seasoned pro and someone who will keep us moving forward on the positive trajectory we've been on under Obama.

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    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    ...the thread in which we discuss all things Hillary and why this country is ready to make history.
    Proceeds to discuss Bernie Sanders.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    haha, actually contrasting why Hillary makes more sense but point taken.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/it...e-658888259754

    James Carville made a good point last night, "Why would the Democrats nominate someone who's not even a Democrat?" he asked. We've had two successful two-term presidents and sandwiched in between, a disastrous Republican president. Why change course now?

    Besides, give me one good example of a successful socialist country. I doubt if you can. Sure, some countries have implemented socialized medicine and a few other reforms which might be seen as socialist, but socialism, as defined by wiki:

    "Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;[7] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.[8] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these.[9] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[10] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

    obviously Socialism as a central form of govt is much broader than a few govt controlled services, and, has never been successful anywhere, ever, and, runs counter to our founding principles.

    And, scares the hell out of folks thereby making Bernie a tough sell in a general election, lets be honest.

    Hillary might not be the perfect candidate (has there ever been one ever, really?) but she's a seasoned pro and someone who will keep us moving forward on the positive trajectory we've been on under Obama.
    Ugh. This is the stupidest argument. A dictionary (or whatever) definition of socialism doesn't matter at all. Bernie Sanders has a long history as an elected official, and has a lot of clear positions and policy proposals. If he was elected president he would not try to seize the means of production. Bernie Sanders being elected president would not mean Full Socialism Now! or anything close to it. The elements of socialism supported by Bernie Sanders (and much of the Democratic party) are common and successful in many other countries.

    And Bernie Sanders would be no more of a tough sell during the general election than Hillary Clinton will be. Many, many Republicans have been hating Clinton for at least 25 years, while many people have not really had much of an awareness or opinion of Sanders until last year.

    I get that the Democratic Party is concerned about itself and not that interested in nominating someone who hasn't put in their time propping up the Democratic Party... but that is not something you want to highlight. I don't support Democrats for their milquetoast, centrist positions, but that's all Carville is selling.

    Hillary Clinton is far better than that, and a legitimate strong candidate. Push that, not this nonsense.
    I don't think I'm hosting a 2016 collaborative playlist.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Whether Bernie intends to go full Hugo Chavez or, tinker around the edges with socialist reforms, the Republicans would have a field day with his Socialist world view (in a general election) and would scare the hell out of folks with their relentless fear mongering, as they did when they tried for years to paint Obama as a Socialist, which may have tipped the balance in the mid-terms.

    Fortunately, at this point in the race, Hillary still looks like the solid front runner...

    Bernie Sanders isn’t catching Hillary Clinton. Because, math.

    By Chris Cillizza April 5

    "Hillary Clinton has a lead of nearly 230 pledged delegates  —  and with each passing week, it’s becoming increasingly unlikely that Senator Sanders will be able to catch up. In order to do so, Sanders has to win the four remaining delegate-rich primaries —  New York, Pennsylvania, California, and New Jersey  —  with roughly 60 percent of the vote. To put that in perspective: Sanders has thus far won only two primaries with that margin: Vermont and New Hampshire. Needless to say, the size and demographic makeups of New York, Pennsylvania, California, and New Jersey are decidedly different than Vermont and New Hampshire. And these figures don’t even include superdelegates, where Clinton has an overwhelming lead.

    Here's that paragraph visualized:

    https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...ead.jpg&w=1484

    (Philip Bump / The Washington Post)

    That Clinton lead may not look all that daunting until you remember this: There are no winner-take-all primaries or caucuses on the Democratic side. Every contest allocates delegates proportionally. What that means in simple terms is that it's hard for a front-runner to pull away and very hard for an underdog to close the gap."

  8. #8
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    Whether Bernie intends to go full Hugo Chavez or, tinker around the edges with socialist reforms, the Republicans would have a field day with his Socialist world view (in a general election) and would scare the hell out of folks with their relentless fear mongering, as they did when they tried for years to paint Obama as a Socialist, which may have tipped the balance in the mid-terms.
    But that's incredibly stupid. Republicans are going to call most Democratic candidates "socialist" and mean it as an attack. Since we have a major candidate that is an unapologetic socialist one option would be to stand with that and explain why "socialist" shouldn't be a dirty word. That the old strict definition doesn't have anything to do with how the term is used in modern politics. That social programs have wide support and are fantastic for this country and our people, and should be supported and expanded.

    You could be moving the Overton window, but no, it slightly helps Hillary Clinton right now (even though she is going to win the nomination) to buy in to the ridiculous Republican rhetoric game and reinforce the idea that "socialist" is a bad word. It hurts the left, it hurts progressives, it hurts Democrats that are going to get accused of socialism for supporting basically any government assistance or regulations.
    I don't think I'm hosting a 2016 collaborative playlist.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    And the midterms went for the Republicans because they tend to shift away from the party in power and because that's how Republican-controlled states have it gerrymandered. Republicans called Obama a socialist, yet he still won his two terms.

    Democrats should not feel afraid to support social programs. That doesn't make them Communists. That doesn't mean they're trying to foment revolution and destroy the country.

    One of the reasons Bernie Sanders is doing so well is that there are a lot of actual fucking leftists in this country, that support social services, that support the modern type of socialism that he is promoting.

    Another reason the Republicans tend to do well in midterm elections is that Democrats are not as good at listening to, supporting, and firing up their base. One way to do that would be for Democrats to not be so scared of being leftists.
    I don't think I'm hosting a 2016 collaborative playlist.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    But that's incredibly stupid. Republicans are going to call most Democratic candidates "socialist" and mean it as an attack. Since we have a major candidate that is an unapologetic socialist one option would be to stand with that and explain why "socialist" shouldn't be a dirty word. That the old strict definition doesn't have anything to do with how the term is used in modern politics. That social programs have wide support and are fantastic for this country and our people, and should be supported and expanded.
    Good luck explaining to average Joe the difference between "the old strict definition" and "how the term is used in modern politics." The latter, of course, is so vague and ambiguous that it's wide open for interpretation and ripe for political exploitation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    You could be moving the Overton window, but no, it slightly helps Hillary Clinton right now (even though she is going to win the nomination) to buy in to the ridiculous Republican rhetoric game and reinforce the idea that "socialist" is a bad word. It hurts the left, it hurts progressives, it hurts Democrats that are going to get accused of socialism for supporting basically any government assistance or regulations.
    Democrats are doing fine advancing social reforms, progressive social positions, environmental protections, etc., etc., without having to embrace the socialist moniker. The Affordable Care Act, same-sex marriage, supreme court nominations, etc., all areas where we're seeing progress, no need to run further to the left at this stage, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    Democrats should not feel afraid to support social programs. That doesn't make them Communists. That doesn't mean they're trying to foment revolution and destroy the country

    One of the reasons Bernie Sanders is doing so well is that there are a lot of actual fucking leftists in this country, that support social services, that support the modern type of socialism that he is promoting.
    Democrats already support social programs, that should be obvious. What's far less obvious is "the modern type of socialism that he is promoting." I'm all for social programs, support and welfare for the poor and creating opportunity for kids through lowering the cost of a college education, etc., but there are always costs associated with these programs/services and, I'm not too keen on tax increases either, or staggering national debt and, these gov't programs are fraught with peril, often don't work and, there's a shit ton of waste and incompetence and bureaucratic bullshit. I should know, I've spent the past 30 years working in social services here in Santa Clara County. The waste and incompetence is staggering.

    Plus, I've never much cared for radical right or radical left wing politics, I'm a left of center moderate Democrat. Bernie is just a little too far out on the left wing for me and I doubt seriously that many of his proposals would fly/see the light of day anyway. Especially without control of the houses.

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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    Good luck explaining to average Joe the difference between "the old strict definition" and "how the term is used in modern politics." The latter, of course, is so vague and ambiguous that it's wide open for interpretation and ripe for political exploitation.
    Have you ever considered the possibility that many “average joes” have the intellectual capability to understand modern socialist policies just fine and it might actually be you who is stumbling with the concept?

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    Democrats are doing fine advancing social reforms, progressive social positions, environmental protections, etc., etc., without having to embrace the socialist moniker. The Affordable Care Act, same-sex marriage, supreme court nominations, etc., all areas where we're seeing progress, no need to run further to the left at this stage, imo.
    This belief is totally understandable and I don't think you are out of your mind. At this point in the primary nothing anyone says will probably change the opinion of voters like yourself. But for those reading this who are still somewhat hazy and/or mixed between the two democratic candidates we should understand the real philosophical contrast that has been developing within the democratic party over the past several years. It should now be clear that within the larger umbrella of the “American Left” there are real consequential differences between progressive idealism and centrist neoliberalism. And the general political climate among the American electorate independently evolves over time. In the 1990s President Clinton did what he had to do because the GOP still controlled much of the populist narrative left over from 1980s Reagan Morning In America™ bullshit nostalgia. This was still a time when just being publicly labeled as a “progressive” or a “liberal” while a democratic representative was an embarrassing and dirty insult. So President Clinton had to say things like “the era of big government is over!” and did other bad neoliberal conservative stuff like repeal Glass–Steagall Legislation, welfare reform, and the 3 strikes law. So ok fine that was then, but the 1990s were a long time ago and the country is a lot different now. Democrats don’t have to pretend like they aren’t progressive liberals anymore. Look at recent polling. In 2000 only 27% of democrats self-identified as progressive. In 2015 that number rose to 42%. That is a dramatic shift in a relatively short amount of time.

    There's multiple factors at play here: 8 years of the historically disastrous Bush admin, then contrasted with another 8 years of a relatively successful Obama admin, coupled with dramatic changes in racial demographics in the population, while #millennials are coming of age. These are all elements that mixed together to genuinely move this country to the left. Even the fact that Obama’s presidency is mostly perceived as successful among the mainstream public, but majorly came up short and disappointed many progressives has added even more fuel to this movement. Additionally, the chronic stagnated wages for over a decade experienced within the working and middle class has organically created a climate just ripe for some economic populism (also driving trump's rise on the authoritarian right as an unfortunate side effect). In the last 40 years there has never been a more opportunistic time to really shoot for another quasi-FDR New Deal approach to government (but without the racism this time around) Especially while the GOP is currently self-destructing and going absolutely shit house.

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    Plus, I've never much cared for radical right or radical left wing politics, I'm a left of center moderate Democrat. Bernie is just a little too far out on the left wing for me and I doubt seriously that many of his proposals would fly/see the light of day anyway. Especially without control of the houses.
    This false equivalency shit is arguably the most frustrating common feature of centrists/establishment democrats. The progressive constituency of the democratic party is not the inverse equivalent of the tea party in the GOP. The right and the left are not evenly matched sports teams competing in a regulated league. There’s infinite complexities and nuances to political thought in all civilizations that goes beyond the simplicity of the Yankees / Red Sox rivalry. The tea party is made up of theocratic, reactionary bigots. There's no opposite party equivalent to that in the United States. Sanders proposals are not unheard of even from this country. Before Governor Reagan, public university was free in California. HRC is a modern representation of what Republicans used to be before their party went crazy. Bernie Sanders is what a Democrat used to be before they sold out.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    On the poverty and homelessness problem, I guess I'd respond by saying I see poor folks now who get free housing through the federal government (HUD), free transportation (qtrly transit pass) through the transit authority, free food through the food stamp program, free phone though the free phone program, free healthcare through various gov't programs, and help with their electric bills and a monthly SSI income of about $900/month.

    These are folks who often have all sorts of addictions and illnesses for which they may or may not receive any treatment, its not required. One guy (who received a brand spanking new apt) just died in a truly bizarre fashion from his meth addiction, another drank himself into oblivion and now resides in a chronic care facility, and no longer recognizes me.

    I think we pour a fair amount of money into social problems already, it's how that money gets spent that seems to be the problem. How we get various govt agencies to work together, and so on. Social problems are complex. Our State mental health system in recent years added a tax on the wealthy and has plenty of money coming in, but they still struggle to deal with these complex issues.

    As for kids and tuition, I was a student here when community college went from free to $50 a semester, that was the issue that got me into student govt so I appreciate how ridiculous tuition has become, I also paid back student loans for 10 years. I do think we need to make college more affordable and accessible. I think Hillary believes that too.

    I also believe in self determination though and personal responsibility, all the handouts in the world won't get folks to a better life if they aren't interested in making the effort or dealing with whatever issues are holding them back.

    It's simply not true for a minute that Democrats have sold out. We're talking about complex issues that most folks have no interest in dealing with beyond throwing money at the problem and then complaining as the consequences of inaction become apparent.

  14. #14
    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    The love in this thread is palpable.

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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    On the poverty and homelessness problem, I guess I'd respond by saying I see poor folks now who get free housing through the federal government (HUD), free transportation (qtrly transit pass) through the transit authority, free food through the food stamp program, free phone though the free phone program, free healthcare through various gov't programs, and help with their electric bills and a monthly SSI income of about $900/month.
    The wide variety in programs ends up wasting time and money on both sides. Those I know who use these programs end up spending loads of time jumping through hoops, filling out forms, and making calls to overburdened call centers just to keep the money and/or services coming. This takes time away from job hunting, and makes keeping a job very difficult. Add onto that stuff like probation, court dates, etc. and you've got a system where the poor have very little chance of escape.
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...


  17. #17

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by meyouseek View Post
    The wide variety in programs ends up wasting time and money on both sides. Those I know who use these programs end up spending loads of time jumping through hoops, filling out forms, and making calls to overburdened call centers just to keep the money and/or services coming. This takes time away from job hunting, and makes keeping a job very difficult. Add onto that stuff like probation, court dates, etc. and you've got a system where the poor have very little chance of escape.
    that's true, our systems are far from perfect. trouble is, many of the best and brightest don't want to get into social services or treatment services at any level. they know the pay is poor and the petty bureaucratic bullshit, endless. my point is, it's not always a resource issue or a "Democrats sold out" issue...it's also a how-the-resources-are-used issue. I've sat in the office of one of our county supervisors and had her bemoan the fact that we're having to close programs to keep up with our mammoth lump sum pension obligations. fact is, so much of the work done directly by gov't employees could be contracted out, saving the good tax paying folks millions.

  18. #18
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    It's simply not true for a minute that Democrats have sold out.
    Understand that the amount of left leaning voters who sincerely hold your belief is shrinking more and more every day as the establishment wing of the party gets more exposed. Win or lose, Sanders has already accelerated a major generational shift within the Democratic party.

    “Sanders has triggered dynamics that could reshape his party for years. Most important, his campaign is crystallizing the political emergence of the massive Millennial Generation, which is poised to pass the Baby Boom by 2020 as the electorate’s largest voting block... Sanders is on track to win more total votes, and a higher percentage of the primary vote, than any insurgent Democrat in the modern primary era."

    I’m almost afraid to ask, but what is your opinion of current DNC Chair and Florida Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz?

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    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    I see that the Hillary Clinton thread predictably became another repository of Bernie Sanders copypasta within its first page.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
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    It's hard to argue with that.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Sandwich View Post
    Understand that the amount of left leaning voters who sincerely hold your belief is shrinking more and more every day as the establishment wing of the party gets more exposed. Win or lose, Sanders has already accelerated a major generational shift within the Democratic party.




    I’m almost afraid to ask, but what is your opinion of current DNC Chair and Florida Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz?
    What you're peddling is insidious, amigo. reminds me of when the teabaggers hijacked the Republican party, chased away the sensible Republicans and branded any Republican who didn't share their extremist views a RINO (Republican in name only). As Democrats, or leftists or Socialists, we should rise above the temptation to create division, distrust and dislike among people who generally share our ideas and vision for the future.

    and Debbie, she seems okay. Average Democrat as far as I can tell.

  21. #21
    Coachella Junkie paulb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    she seems ok? really? She campaigned for Hillary in 2008, they had over 20 debates, and now she is head of the DNC and there are initially only 6 debates and of those six they were scheduled during football playoffs, last saturday before Christmas, now they ask for a debate during the NCAA championship game and one on Good Morning America at 9am on a Saturday, they are seriously trying to protect Hillary and limit Bernies national exposure. Do you not think there is a correlation? As soon as he won New Hampshire, a new debate was scheduled the following day.
    Last edited by paulb; 04-07-2016 at 08:53 PM.
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    Chest Rockwell Gribbz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    I think it's funny that Bernie Sanders supporters expect the DNC to roll out the red carpet for someone that isn't a democrat, will never be a democrat, and hasn't done anything for the party.

    "The DNC picks who they like!"

    Well... yeah.

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    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    Debbie, she seems okay. Average Democrat as far as I can tell.
    whoa buddy... she's the HEAD of the DNC. Were you not aware that Debbie supports shitty payday lenders and that this is a problem. and in case you needed a crash course in why: predatory lending is bad

    more:
    Another Reason to Hate Debbie Wasserman Schultz: Her War on Medical Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    What you're peddling is insidious, amigo.
    Dude, take a breath. This is what primaries are for. I’m sure you and I have plenty in common when it comes to the overall ethos of society and idea of general empathy and community. Take comfort in the fact that we can both high five over the GOP circling the downward spiral of oblivion in front of our very eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by breathewithme View Post
    reminds me of when the teabaggers hijacked the Republican party, chased away the sensible Republicans and branded any Republican who didn't share their extremist views a RINO (Republican in name only)
    cool. You need to stop looking at political parties in America as “teams” playing in the same sport.

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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    Quote Originally Posted by SepaGroove View Post
    You shouldn't feel uncool for not going to EDC, you should feel uncool because you are uncool.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    I yelled "I'm with her!!" at a bunch of Bernie people with signs hanging out on a random street corner in Indio on my way into the fest this weekend! #doingmypart
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  27. #27

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/us...nton.html?_r=0

    this election is quickly coming down to which candidate, Hillary or Donald, will do a better job of uniting their respective party.

    god help us if it's not Hillary.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    ahhhhhh, much better vibes in here.

    just need some good vibe music to keep this Hillary party rollin'...



    ..."she's got everything I need...doo do doo sunshine daydream"...

    feel the love, people.

    Hillary 2016

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    oof

  30. #30

    Default Re: Hillary love-fest 2016...

    fantastic.

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