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Thread: Fuck Capitalism ☭

  1. #1
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Fuck Capitalism ☭

    thread to discuss Marxist theory and the possibilities in a post-capitalist system that can, perhaps, help radicalize socialist-curious liberals and/or answer some of their questions about why we want to seize the means of production. While full communism may always be the ultimate goal, socialism must be the prerequisite in order to successfully phase us out of the current capitalist system. And just like it took centuries for capitalism to establish its secure footing in the world, so too will it take substantial time to establish true democratic socialism.

    All workers everywhere,

    your freedom is a synthetic enterprise, not a natural gift.

    demand full automation
    demand universal basic income
    demand the 3 day work week
    demand the future

    you have nothing to lose but your chains.

  2. #2
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    some short introductory videos



    Marx would absolutely cringe at the thought of simply "reforming" capitalism, but nevertheless this is a pretty decent short video explainer for newcomers to Marxist theory

  3. #3
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    I would like to know more about the 3 day work week. How would that work for professions that serve some of the 24/7 needs of people - hospitals/hospice/in-home care, etc, etc.

    2/21: Parquet Courts, Meg Baird @ The Fillmore
    2/22: Japanese Breakfast, Jay Som, Hand Habits @ Gray Area Theater
    2/23: Tune-Yards, Thao and the Get Down Stay Down, Sudan Archives @ The Fox
    2/24: Octo Octa @ F8
    3/2: Florian Kupfer, Privacy @ f8
    3/7: Thunderpussy @ BoH
    4/5: Kevin Morby @ The Fillmore
    5/2: Khruangbin @ The Fillmore
    5/13: Ezra Furman @ The Independent


  4. #4
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    I can give you a more detailed answer that i can link to later.

    but basically this can be explained by the fact that current productivity is at a level of incredible and unprecedented surplus. Even necessary jobs like nursing, childcare, etc. can have those responsibilities better organized and more efficiently distributed. Economists 80-100 years ago were already debating the idea of reducing the 40 hour work week, and productivity has only increased since then. Many jobs will just be eliminated outright.

    Untimely we will have to let go of the idea of "full employment". We are going to see the effects of automation more and more. Thus far, automation has only benefited the capitalists and screwed over the industrial, agricultural, and service workers. What to do when all of these menial jobs are replaced with automation? Soon the entire trucking industry will be wiped clean of human drivers. The warehousing industry is being completely transformed as we speak. This is where concepts like Universal Basic Income (UBI) and a dramatically reduced work week come in to play. These programs create what leftists like to refer to as positive freedoms (as opposed to negative freedoms loved by libertarians, like the "freedom" to starve to death or the "freedom" to not have access to healthcare).

    a dirty secrete capitalists don't want you to know is that financial crisis are caused by over production, not by scarcity.
    Last edited by Baby Sandwich; 05-08-2017 at 08:14 PM.

  5. #5
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Yea, I agree completely re: UBI + shorter workweeks for almost every industry - I just haven't read enough to know about how it would theoretically work for "necessary" jobs (I don't love the quotes around that, but can't think of the better term).

    Also and this is just a personal, practical concern: how would I pay for all of the drugs I'd want to do 5 days a week? Would the price of street drugs drop dramatically? I know this is a very low concern for the DSA but just want to put it on the agenda for consideration.

    2/21: Parquet Courts, Meg Baird @ The Fillmore
    2/22: Japanese Breakfast, Jay Som, Hand Habits @ Gray Area Theater
    2/23: Tune-Yards, Thao and the Get Down Stay Down, Sudan Archives @ The Fox
    2/24: Octo Octa @ F8
    3/2: Florian Kupfer, Privacy @ f8
    3/7: Thunderpussy @ BoH
    4/5: Kevin Morby @ The Fillmore
    5/2: Khruangbin @ The Fillmore
    5/13: Ezra Furman @ The Independent


  6. #6
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    AND DON'T TELL ME THAT THE ONLY REASON I DO DRUGS IS TO COPE WITH THE CRUSHING OPPRESSION OF LIVING IN A CAPITALIST SYSTEM

    2/21: Parquet Courts, Meg Baird @ The Fillmore
    2/22: Japanese Breakfast, Jay Som, Hand Habits @ Gray Area Theater
    2/23: Tune-Yards, Thao and the Get Down Stay Down, Sudan Archives @ The Fox
    2/24: Octo Octa @ F8
    3/2: Florian Kupfer, Privacy @ f8
    3/7: Thunderpussy @ BoH
    4/5: Kevin Morby @ The Fillmore
    5/2: Khruangbin @ The Fillmore
    5/13: Ezra Furman @ The Independent


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    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    heh good question. maybe i should mention that at the next healthcare committee meeting. I'm thinking co-ops.

    Miya Tokumitsu just wrote a good essay printed in New Republic on reducing the work week and UBI, etc, but also on how corporations and our employers are playing a role that increasingly resembles feudal lords in this phase of late stage capitalism that we're currently in.
    Last edited by Baby Sandwich; 05-09-2017 at 12:19 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    lol this thread. capitalism is more entrenched now than ever. Americans love capitalism and just elected a brand new capitalist-in-chief...

    ..."full communism" lololololololol!

  9. #9
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    What's that mantra? "Boomers will someday soon die?"

    2/21: Parquet Courts, Meg Baird @ The Fillmore
    2/22: Japanese Breakfast, Jay Som, Hand Habits @ Gray Area Theater
    2/23: Tune-Yards, Thao and the Get Down Stay Down, Sudan Archives @ The Fox
    2/24: Octo Octa @ F8
    3/2: Florian Kupfer, Privacy @ f8
    3/7: Thunderpussy @ BoH
    4/5: Kevin Morby @ The Fillmore
    5/2: Khruangbin @ The Fillmore
    5/13: Ezra Furman @ The Independent


  10. #10

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    What's that mantra? "Boomers will someday soon die?"
    ha! that may be true. but we were all young and idealistic at one point. some of us have been around long enough to see that 3rd party spinoffs tend to just weaken our (Democrats and left leaning people everywhere) chances of winning important elections. yes, the nader effect. I'd argue that we saw some of that in this past election too. a splintered party with critical votes being squandered on pointless 3rd party candidates who never had a prayer vs unified party that might've been able to push Hillary over the top. If Baby Sandwiches' super duper communist peoples revolutionary party ever got any real traction, the most they would do is splinter the party and pave the way for the next trump, kind of like the #neverhillary folks did when they helped trump get elected.

  11. #11
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    this thread is supposed to be about Marxist theory and some related digressions. please stay on topic. thank you.

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    zeezus amyzzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    How do keep the leaders of such a movement from being corrupt and hoarding all the wealth?
    I miss talking to TomAz.

    We all do. I live in the same city as him (unless he relocated) and rumor has it that at 3:15am if you listen closely and its really really quiet you can hear him telling you to go fuck yourself.

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    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    as opposed to the small amount of people hoarding the wealth in our current system?

    that's sort of the entire point of marxism. to redistribute the concentration of wealth and power.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Now accepting distributions.

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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭


  16. #16

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Sandwich View Post
    "Employees could still be fired for being members of organizations they know advocate for overthrowing the government by force or violence."

    no problemo, Californians can easily be wooed over to Communism through careful explanation and examination of the limitations of capitalism and a righteous effort to convince the wealthy in our beloved state to part with a bit more of their wealth for the benefit of the greater good. Trotsky would be pleased. viva la peaceful non-violent revolución!

  17. #17
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    have you been to the black panther museum in oakland, breathwithme?


  18. #18

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby Sandwich View Post
    have you been to the black panther museum in oakland, breathwithme?

    I would refer you to post #11.

  19. #19
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    the black panthers are marxist

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Dissolved
    1982

    how is this relevant?

  21. #21
    Member Baby Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    the black panthers were destroyed by the state because they were becoming more successful in mobilizing the working class against capitalism. you would probably know this if you had been to the museum which is why I asked.

    many black panther leaders were assassinated by the FBI and local police, but some are still alive and very influential such as Angela Davis


  22. #22

    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    I went to UCSC (where she taught for almost 20 years), earned a degree in politics there, took classes taught by self proclaimed socialists, I'm well aware of radical left wing politics. but there's never been a time in US political history when ultra leftists held any real power. not in CA, certainly not on a national level. hell even CA is still electing people like Issa. I admire what seems to be your overarching goal which seems to be tackling these obscene levels of income inequality and promoting wealth redistribution...and Bernie was probably the closest we will ever get to having a socialist leader, but that was largely because he was keeping quiet about the S word and the Republicans hadn't got their mitts on him yet...but they were primed and ready and would've certainly fear-mongered the hell out of everybody had he become the candidate. I really don't know what the solution is, and its much easier taking pot shots at your youthful idealism than offering a realistic solution of my own, admittedly...but I don't see the Democrats or Americans lurching far-left in an effort to counter the current horror show. there's such a tiny portion of people really who are willing to embrace radical left wing politics.
    Last edited by breathewithme; 05-09-2017 at 01:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Has anyone here ever actually stepped foot in a socialist country? Spent any time in China, Cuba, Venezuela?

    Are are you all romanticizing something you have never experienced from the safety of your capitalist constitutional republic?

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    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by craigoneil View Post
    Has anyone here ever actually stepped foot in a socialist country? Spent any time in China, Cuba, Venezuela?
    Craig. Sweet Craig. First off, I've been to China. It's not a socialist country. Second, these are the kinds of lazy straw man arguments I heard constantly during Bernie's campaign. I know that half of America is too stupid to realize there is a difference between Socialism and Social Democracy, but there were plenty of people who were just being deliberately obtuse when they conflated the two. Like when your friends describe you as a capitalist and you have to clear your throat and remind them that you're an anarcho capitalist, that's an important distinction. Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland. All Social Democracies. All countries with a much higher standard of living than the average American enjoys - one might even call them wealthy countries. If the word Socialism is what's got people spooked I'm fully in favor of a new name.

  25. #25
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    My vote goes to renaming it anarchocraigism!

    2/21: Parquet Courts, Meg Baird @ The Fillmore
    2/22: Japanese Breakfast, Jay Som, Hand Habits @ Gray Area Theater
    2/23: Tune-Yards, Thao and the Get Down Stay Down, Sudan Archives @ The Fox
    2/24: Octo Octa @ F8
    3/2: Florian Kupfer, Privacy @ f8
    3/7: Thunderpussy @ BoH
    4/5: Kevin Morby @ The Fillmore
    5/2: Khruangbin @ The Fillmore
    5/13: Ezra Furman @ The Independent


  26. #26
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Baby Sandwich, just out of curiosity (not arguing or setting you up for anything), do you consider yourself a social democrat in the style of Bernie Sanders, northern Europe, etc., or are you now a proponent of straight-up revolutionary Marxism?
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    Craig. Sweet Craig. First off, I've been to China. It's not a socialist country. Second, these are the kinds of lazy straw man arguments I heard constantly during Bernie's campaign. I know that half of America is too stupid to realize there is a difference between Socialism and Social Democracy, but there were plenty of people who were just being deliberately obtuse when they conflated the two. Like when your friends describe you as a capitalist and you have to clear your throat and remind them that you're an anarcho capitalist, that's an important distinction. Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland. All Social Democracies. All countries with a much higher standard of living than the average American enjoys - one might even call them wealthy countries. If the word Socialism is what's got people spooked I'm fully in favor of a new name.
    If the average standard of living is these countries are better, then why do people from those countries come to America?

    The answer from their own mouths, is opportunity.

    If you want to live a more comfortable mediocre life, those countries are great, if you want to make something of yourself, America is where its at.

    So I dont care if the average standard of living is better, im not trying to be average and I have little use for people that are.

    And Bob, what the fuck are you still doing here if being there is better?

    China's particular brand of socialism is unique, I'll give them that, but by their own statements its socialism

    @guedita

    I Love Anarchocraigism, thanks.

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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    Baby Sandwich, just out of curiosity (not arguing or setting you up for anything), do you consider yourself a social democrat in the style of Bernie Sanders, northern Europe, etc., or are you now a proponent of straight-up revolutionary Marxism?
    Is there sidebets going on if Baby Sandwich lives at home with his parents?

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    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by craigoneil View Post
    If the average standard of living is these countries are better, then why do people from those countries come to America?
    I don't know, to see the Grand Canyon?

    Quote Originally Posted by craigoneil View Post
    The answer from their own mouths, is opportunity.
    Oh, gotcha. Didn't realize that was rhetorical. I would have also accepted "freedom."

    Quote Originally Posted by craigoneil View Post
    If you want to live a more comfortable mediocre life, those countries are great, if you want to make something of yourself, America is where its at.

    So I dont care if the average standard of living is better, im not trying to be average and I have little use for people that are.

    And Bob, what the fuck are you still doing here if being there is better?
    Lol, if you love Sweden so much why don't you marry it? Isn't this pretty much the "love it or leave it" argument? The last refuge of delusional patriots? Pretty lame, Craig. Pretty average.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigoneil View Post
    China's particular brand of socialism is unique, I'll give them that, but by their own statements its socialism
    China has been on all fours at the capitalist gang-bang for decades I don't care what the party line is. They've got the one-party, authoritarian government, sure. They've also got Alibaba and the biggest gambling industry in the world. Don't be delusional.

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    Default Re: Fuck Capitalism ☭

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    I don't know, to see the Grand Canyon?



    Oh, gotcha. Didn't realize that was rhetorical. I would have also accepted "freedom."



    Lol, if you love Sweden so much why don't you marry it? Isn't this pretty much the "love it or leave it" argument? The last refuge of delusional patriots? Pretty lame, Craig. Pretty average.



    China has been on all fours at the capitalist gang-bang for decades I don't care what the party line is. They've got the one-party, authoritarian government, sure. They've also got Alibaba and the biggest gambling industry in the world. Don't be delusional.
    So you evaded the first question entirely.
    The reality is that people from Social Democratic countries come here for the chance to do really well, vs be capitated at earn so much.
    People like what America has to offer, they know that it may mean they might fail but they also know that they have one of the greatest upsides anywhere on the planet.

    Im not telling you to love it or leave it, im saying if you see some place that has what you want, why not go there vs change the economic system that made america great, that created the all the great advancement you enjoy here. If you see something else you like, why not embrace it? Go try it out.

    Capitalism where the wealth is held within the government isnt capitalism. There is clearly a unqiue approach here, but its entirely centrally planned, centrally controlled and there is no opportunity for the average chinese person to participate in this capitalism.

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