Which Board Member's Head Would You Most Like To Go Upside Of?

[mountmccabe]

I took the comments from algunz as motivation to not care about what, particularly, my comments had to do with any current conversation.

Not that any blame, if any should be assigned, should go to algunz.

I'm not saying that women authors are better. I just was irked by various comments that there were no good women authors. I'd put Woolf up with Joyce and Pound and Proust. And I love those motherfuckers.

I love to death everything I've read by Acker and Carson. I like Morrison a lot but she has gotten a lot of press/notice for what she's done. She's got some great stuff, though.

I don't really know Maya Angelou.

The wikipedia page on Hempel links to three complete shorts. I will bookmark and read. At some point.

[thelastgreatman]

Here is what you need to read from Ms. Hempel. The last line is, IMO, one of the most perfect final sentences ever written.

Weekend by Amy Hempel

The game was called on account of dogs--Hunter in the infield, Tucker in the infield, Bosco and Boone at first base. First grader Donald sat down on second base, and Kirsten grabbed her brother’s arm and wouldn’t let him leave third to make his first run.

“Unfair!” her brother screamed, and the dogs, roving umpires, ran to third.

“Good power!” their uncle yelled, when Joy, in a leg cast, swung the bat and missed. “Now put some wood to it.”

And when she did, Joy’s designated runner, Cousin Zeke, ran to first, the ice cubes in his gin and tonic, clacking like dog tags in the glass.

And when Kelly broke free from Kirsten and this time came in to make the run, members of the Kelly team made Tucker in the infield dance on his hind legs.

“It’s not who wins—“ their coach began, and was shouted down by one of the boys, “There’s first and then there’s forget it.”

Then Hunter retrieved a foul ball and carried it off in the direction of the river.
The other dogs followed--barking, mutinous.

Dinner was a simple picnic on the porch, paper plates in laps, the only conversation a debate as to which was the better grip for throwing shoes.

After dinner, the horseshoes were handed out, the post pounded in, the rules reviewed with a new rule added due to falling-down shorts. The new rule: Have attire.

The women smoked on the porch, the smoke repelling mosquitoes, and the men and children played on even after dusk when it got so dark that a candle was rigged to balance on top of the post, and was knocked off and blown out by every single almost-ringer.

Then the children went to bed, or at least went upstairs, and the men joined the women for a cigarette on the porch, absently picking ticks engorged like grapes off the sleeping dogs. And when the men kissed the women good night, and their weekend whiskers scratched the women’s cheeks, the women did not think "shave," they thought: "stay."

[ewiggy]

[mountmccabe]

I've not read anything by her but I almost did for a halfassed online bookclub. It turned out to be wholeassed. Or assless, depending on what that saying is supposed to mean.

[roberto73]

Well fucking said. My mom was a teacher's coach for an all-hispanic elementary school just outside of Bakersfield and the entire atmosphere at the school has changed dramatically since the inception of No Child Left Behind. They do not distinguish between schools that are comprised primarily of native English speakers and those that are compromised of nearly all ESL students. They both are held to the same standards. And the administrators are becoming downright hostile and unforgiving of teachers that they're all bordering on breakdowns. The new, more profound influence of requiring standards be met regardless of a school's demographics and/or funding position just makes me fucking sick to my stomach.

Yeah, that's something I didn't even touch on, how all students are measured by the same standards and assessments, including English language learners and special education students. All in the name of equity in education, of course.

One more final word about all the very thoughtful posts from Yabs and roberto--I don't see you guys as being disagreeing with me, actually. We're all in agreement that the system is fucked up and needs drastic changes. All I'm saying is that even before No Child Left Behind, the quality of teaching in general was shitty.

We do agree on some points, but the big difference seems to be that you appear to view teachers in the same absolute terms you condemned in Post #202 – all lazy, all cruel, all incompetent, all worthless, all worthy of being rebelled against – while I generally see teachers as being victims of a system that seems hell-bent on grinding them down. If anything, the atmosphere for teachers has gotten worse, especially for young, new teachers. They're entering the profession when there's more pressure on them than ever before, yet they're the ones who, by virtue of their youth, energy, and idealism, have the most potential to make a real change. Incidentally, the current California standards were in place three years prior to NCLB, and before that there was a different framework in place that was at least as bad as the current one. Government has been bad for education for a long time. Rather than attacking teachers (many of whom, sorry, are intelligent, caring, hard-working people trying to make the best of a shitty system), it seems much more productive to start attacking the politicians and bureaucrats who mandate curriculum and assessment, but who don't actually know a goddamn thing about education.

On another issue entirely, I use Hempel's "The Harvest" with my college writing class. I always manage to rope in a few new fans.

[thelastgreatman]

We do agree on some points, but the big difference seems to be that you appear to view teachers in the same absolute terms you condemned in Post #202 – all lazy, all cruel, all incompetent, all worthless, all worthy of being rebelled against – while I generally see teachers as being victims of a system that seems hell-bent on grinding them down. If anything, the atmosphere for teachers has gotten worse, especially for young, new teachers. They're entering the profession when there's more pressure on them than ever before, yet they're the ones who, by virtue of their youth, energy, and idealism, have the most potential to make a real change. Incidentally, the current California standards were in place three years prior to NCLB, and before that there was a different framework in place that was at least as bad as the current one. Government has been bad for education for a long time. Rather than attacking teachers (many of whom, sorry, are intelligent, caring, hard-working people trying to make the best of a shitty system), it seems much more productive to start attacking the politicians and bureaucrats who mandate curriculum and assessment, but who don't actually know a goddamn thing about education.

I'm not dealing with Subbass anymore, but you inspired me to do some research here, Robert, and I'm very glad you did so.

No, it's not technically the individual teachers' fault that the enforced curriculum's are shit. I have said several times that I lay that blame with those who deserve it, although I'm still slightly unclear about who that is exactly--is it just the highest echelons of the school system itself, like a state-level equivalent of a town's Board of Education? Or are we strictly blaming politicians for the ruination of our schools?

I ask all of this because I fail to grasp how the teachers are voiceless pawns in this game. I figured I ought to do a little research to back up my knowledge of just how powerful the teachers' unions are, and here's what I came up with: http://www.educationpolicy.org/files...ok0003.htm#I15

Here's a pertinent section: "The CTA is widely regarded as the most powerful and biggest spending lobby in California. Insofar as cash contributions foster influence, this conclusion is obvious. According to the California Secretary of State, the CTA spent $2,125,472 lobbying in first quarter of 1993, four times the amount spent by the next highest special interest group, the California Medical Association. In 1991-92, the CTA spent over $7.4 million on political campaigns and lobbying. Legislators who support the NEA/CTA positions are typically rewarded with contributions in the next election cycle.

In 1990 CTA-endorsed candidates won in 95 percent of their primary races with the highest winning percentages in state legislative and Congressional candidate races. CTA-endorsed candidates for state senate won 16 of 16 races, and Assembly candidates won 52 of 53. In the 1990 June primary 83 percent of ballot measures endorsed and supported by CTA were approved (CTA Action, 1990).

According to California Common Cause, in the 1989-1990 election cycle, the top ten PACs gave more than $6,000,000 to legislative candidates and causes. CTA PAC was the top contributor, giving more than $1,000,000 to legislative candidates and key ballot measures (American School Board
Journal, 1991). PACs representing trial lawyers, real estate agents, hospitals, labor unions, dentists, optometrists, and restaurant owners were among the other top contributors. Quantifying how much influence the contributions buy is very difficult, but CTA opponents as well as supporters agree that legislation opposed by the CTA is very unlikely to be enacted."

See, this is where my confusion comes in: the teachers all join the unions (three of them, actually, counting the AFT and NEA), they vote for the leaders, their dues are also taken directly out of their checks and handed over to the unions (who up the dues as they please when a ballot initiative that supports any alternative to public schools comes up), and the unions are a commanding force of the Democratic Party, which pretty much owns Californian politics except for Arnold. Are we saying it's all Arnold's doing?

The unions turn out in droves any time an attempt is made to provide tax incentives for private schools, even increasing their dues to pay for these large campaigns that might make it easier for people to actually get a decent education for their kids. So where the fuck are they when all these supposedly crippling laws are being passed?

It would seem that teachers are just as sheep themselves as they are part of the fucked-up system that does everything it can to turn our children into sheep. They have a tremendously powerful union, maybe they should try using it for something other than defeating ballots that would provide tax incentives for parents that want to send their kids to private schools where they might receive a decent education.

[Alchemy]

What the hell did this thread turn into?

[thelastgreatman]

Dude, I have no idea. None of my threads ever stay on topic for more than like two pages before I'm arguing with everyone for some reason. Logically speaking, the factor they all have in common is... everyone else. Yeah, they keep provoking me. I'm sticking with that.

[SubBass49]

Although I still maintain that sociologically speaking, I'd feel more comfortable with students lashing out violently against authority figures (lord knows I had a couple in my life that I would've liked to make taste a barrel) than against each other. Rebelling against adults is what youth is for, it's what it's supposed to do, and my generation hasn't been doing it so far in any way--they've just been rebelling against each other, and that's worrisome to me.

You can a rebel without violence...look at Ghandi, MLK, etc. Weaponry is the means of the weak and impotent...how appropriate you should espouse it's use. If you actually are gifted with the ability to think and be creative, you can rebel quite effectively with non-violent acts. Not sure why I would expect you of all people to understand this though. Violent rebellion usually leads to the person involved looking like a nutjob and not accomplishing anything remotely close to their goal...plus they're usually killed or locked away afterwards...how effective. Do you even bother to think before you post shit like that?

[thelastgreatman]

Do you even bother to read before you post shit like that? The position was not that kids should be shooting teachers, but that if they're going to be shooting someone in the school it would be better if it were teachers than students. Somehow I went over that like three fucking times, but you didn't catch it once.

Oh, except for you. You I just wish would get shot. That hasn't changed either.

What fucking subject do you even teach?

[SubBass49]

I read what you wrote...I just think it was foolish, misguided, and pointless. How would kids shooting teachers make ANYTHING better? All it would do is create a HUGE backlash against kids, and fuck things up worse. Moron.

But regardless...when I started teaching, I spent two years teaching remedial English to kids who averaged a 3rd grade reading level (and they were in 9th & 10th grade). I raised their reading scores by an average of about three grade levels within a year's time.

Currently I teach Art and Ceramics, which is probably the only reason I even have the time within a class period to address social issues with individual students.

[thelastgreatman]

Create a huge backlash against kids? So your contention is that if kids were shooting more adults THEN people would cry for something severe to be done, but as long as they're just murdering 30 or so fellow students the backlash is being withheld? Not like that was remotely relevant in the first place, but that's... so... fuck it, nevermind, I don't even think I need to comment on that.

I would rather the kids be shooting teachers because whether or not that specific teacher is actually personally responsible for the unfair bullshit system that's driving all these kids to the point of wanting to shoot a bunch of people, at least that teacher is (a) a symbol of the system, (b) there by choice, not by force, (c) a fully developed mind and accountable for their responsibility as part of the system, and (d) just because it's an adult, not another child.

I'm glad that you seem to prefer innocent children at the start of their lives than middle-aged holders of Master's Degrees, but I personally find that awfully insensitive of you, SubBass. =)

Also, let's make a deal--I'll completely pretend to ignore the fact that you used to teach remedial English and now teach arts and crafts if you just go away. I'll never even bring it up, or ask how many of your male students you managed to pork so far this year, or anything.

[SubBass49]

Create a huge backlash against kids? So your contention is that if kids were shooting more adults THEN people would cry for something severe to be done, but as long as they're just murdering 30 or so fellow students the backlash is being withheld? Not like that was remotely relevant in the first place, but that's... so... fuck it, nevermind, I don't even think I need to comment on that.

Have the drugs done irreparable damage to your brain? The backlash against children shooting the people that torment them (classmates AND teachers) has already occurred in many places, but imagine what it would be like if students just started shooting teachers as a means of rebellion. A backlash doesn't just have to consist of metal detectors at the front gate, or random searches by teams of administrators & police with dogs...a backlash would also consist of less people wanting to become teachers. As if the job isn't crazy enough, you add some misguided, selfish, immature moron shooting teachers so they can rebel against the system? Teachers would quit in droves if more than one event like that took place. And good luck finding new teachers to hire unless there were extreme measures taken to ensure their safety. Your argument is just an extension of your pattern of immature and unthinking combination of nihilist philosophy and egotism.

I would rather the kids be shooting teachers because whether or not that specific teacher is actually personally responsible for the unfair bullshit system that's driving all these kids to the point of wanting to shoot a bunch of people, at least that teacher is (a) a symbol of the system, (b) there by choice, not by force, (c) a fully developed mind and accountable for their responsibility as part of the system, and (d) just because it's an adult, not another child.

(a) How is a teacher a symbol of a system that oppresses when many of them teach kids how to help change the system for the better? How is a teacher a symbol of the system if they seek to educate and empower their students?

(b) Teachers don't join the education profession to become part of an evil oppressive system...the overwhelming majority join because they care about children, the future of the nation, and/or have a passion for the subject matter they teach and want to share it with others.

(c) See comment (b).

(d) Nobody should be shooting anyone...kids OR adults you moron. Now that you're an adult, should someone see it as OK to murder you because you're milking the welfare system? You're doing your part to fuck things up for other people...you're now a part of the system yourself (like it or not)...should it be OK to kill you?

Even though I think you're complete SCUM, I still wouldn't want someone to shoot you. I'd rather you offed yourself through drugs or your own stupidity. It would be more poetic that way.

I'm glad that you seem to prefer innocent children at the start of their lives than middle-aged holders of Master's Degrees, but I personally find that awfully insensitive of you, SubBass. =)

I'm starting to suspect that you're a masochist. You say some of the most ridiculous things I could imagine in an attempt to have more people hate you. I never said that anyone should be shot...in fact...if you were really as intelligent as you are so desperately trying to convince everyone that you are...you would have read that part I wrote about violence being ineffective and stupid. But nice try dipshit. Did you shoot-up right before you typed this?

Also, let's make a deal--I'll completely pretend to ignore the fact that you used to teach remedial English and now teach arts and crafts if you just go away. I'll never even bring it up, or ask how many of your male students you managed to pork so far this year, or anything.

First, I'm not gay, nor am I a molestor, so nice try. I'm not going to dignify your accusations about that with anything more than this.

Second, what are you trying to say about the subjects I have taught and currently teach? You imagine yourself to be some sort of artist in that you want to be involved in film, yet I GUESSING your insinuating that these are not worthy subjects to teach? Yeah...I guess in your world we would just abandon everyone who doesn't suckle on Amy Hempel's teats right? Some of the remedial English kids I taught are now in college studying for worthy careers...but maybe we should have left them to be beligerant bums and drug addicts like you. Some of the art students that have passed through my courses are now graduating from the Art Institute and getting JOBS in the film industry...wow...jobs...REAL jobs..in the film industry...graphic designers also...not leeches of the welfare system.

Yet here you are...high-school loser/dropout who couldn't even manage to make their way through a forest of assholes (supposedly) bent on your destruction (narcissistic megalomaniac anyone?)..."college" educated blowhard who seems to project his insecurities about his miserable life upon anyone with enough common sense to disagree with him...oh yeah...and you're a junkie. Must be a lovely life. No wonder you're such a cranky little bitch.

Why don't you do everyone a favor and use the gun from your avatar?

[thelastgreatman]

If I did, it would have to be to shoot a teacher. =)

You just keep going around and around in circles and it doesn't bother you in the least. I'm afraid I can't keep up with you anymore though, I'm gonna bow out of this repetitive jerkoff session. Have fun shaping the youth by teaching them to shape bowls.

[SubBass49]

Have fun being a megalomaniacal scumbag that does nothing but spout his underdeveloped ideas about everything on a messageboard all day...oh yeah...and do drugs.

[Down Rodeo]

Um, yeah, you guys have fun teaching junior high for the rest of your lives while I enjoy unemployment, do lots of drugs, make movies, and have more influence on the youth of our nation than 1000 of your fellow babysitters.

If you have any influence on the youth of our nation, our generation is truly fucked.

[algunz]

Honestly, I really don't think LGM has any influence on anybody.

[SubBass49]

On his drug dealer's bank account he has a rather POSITIVE effect..

[algunz]

It may be lucrative, but it ain't positive.

[fatbastard]

Who voted for Ewiggy?

[kreutz2112]

zzz, foi, and hannah

[thelastgreatman]

I want to go upside Hannah's head with smooches.

[kreutz2112]

I was answering Fatbastards question.

[TomAz]

If I hadn't voted for myself I'd've wound up tied with ewiggy. that's really disappointing, everyone likes ewiggy.

[algunz]

I'm shocked FOI only got one vote.

[Wheres the beef?]

I'm shocked FOI only got one vote.

Why did you bump this thread? The last post was 15 months ago.

[bballarl]

Why did you bump this thread? The last post was 15 months ago.

Clearly she bumped it because she was saying, in her own way, that she wants to go upside RT's head.

[algunz]

Thanks, b.

[Monklish]

It's both ridiculous and a testament to my lovable/hateable duality that I somehow didn't win in a landslide.

[Wheres the beef?]

It's both ridiculous and a testament to my lovable/hateable duality that I somehow didn't win in a landslide.

Considering 1/2 the people that did vote for you probably did it out of sarcasm.