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Thread: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

  1. #61

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Last

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    Oh you people would just love that.
    Who you calling "you people"?
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Also, regarding the Descartes theory - I suppose my stance is this: accepting for the sake of argument the prong that says man can only conceive of that which he's experienced (or however it was more eloquently stated prior), couldn't the track record of cultures believing in "gods" stem from the fairly universal shared experience of having parents (or at least a parent)? Every person is exposed to the concept of living things creating more living things - we all are born understanding the concept of living things having a "creator" entity. It doesn't seem to me to take too drastic a stretch of the imagination to think that at some point people started to question the origin of the world, and, absent the capacity for big bang-style theorizing, decided the world as they knew it had a "mother" or "father" as they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by ruetheday View Post
    I don't fucking care. I don't even know who the hell Dave Wang is.
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    you used to be that guy that just Dave Wang's everybody. that guy. he's gone now, and whoever you really are showed up, and that was utter disappointment.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Last

    What did Descartes have to say about DMT bb?
    Quote Originally Posted by ruetheday View Post
    I don't fucking care. I don't even know who the hell Dave Wang is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devin the Dude View Post
    you used to be that guy that just Dave Wang's everybody. that guy. he's gone now, and whoever you really are showed up, and that was utter disappointment.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    Also, regarding the Descartes theory - I suppose my stance is this: accepting for the sake of argument the prong that says man can only conceive of that which he's experienced (or however it was more eloquently stated prior), couldn't the track record of cultures believing in "gods" stem from the fairly universal shared experience of having parents (or at least a parent)? Every person is exposed to the concept of living things creating more living things - we all are born understanding the concept of living things having a "creator" entity. It doesn't seem to me to take too drastic a stretch of the imagination to think that at some point people started to question the origin of the world, and, absent the capacity for big bang-style theorizing, decided the world as they knew it had a "mother" or "father" as they did.
    It's not a stretch to imagine this because it's patently obvious that this is exactly what happened. Everywhere. People deny this because it's too painful for them admit how obvious it is. Some religious folks simply practice cognitive dissonance. The most hardcore (i.e. Ken Ham or Kent Hovind) lean into it and actually relish the opportunity to maintain their faith in the face of overwhelming evidence against their beliefs because it makes their faith that much more spectacular.
    Last edited by jackstraw94086; 12-16-2013 at 10:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Seems unnecessarily hostile.
    Quote Originally Posted by ruetheday View Post
    I don't fucking care. I don't even know who the hell Dave Wang is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devin the Dude View Post
    you used to be that guy that just Dave Wang's everybody. that guy. he's gone now, and whoever you really are showed up, and that was utter disappointment.

  6. #66
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Tell that to women trying to protect reproductive rights or teachers trying to protect textbooks in Texas

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    This one time, at Coachella, this super drunk bro wondered into the Mojave while I was waiting for GY!BE. He asked me if I believed in Jesus. I told him I was an Atheist and it got kinda awkward.
    Luckily, someone found a beach ball and threw it away from the stage. He ran to it like a dog does a bone, and then I had a great weekend.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw94086 View Post
    It's not a stretch to imagine this because it's patently obvious that this is exactly what happened. Everywhere. People deny this because it's too painful for them admit how obvious it is. Some religious folks simply practice cognitive dissonance. The most hardcore (i.e. Ken Ham or Kent Hovind) lean into it and actually relish the opportunity to maintain their faith in the face of overwhelming evidence against their beliefs because it makes their faith that much more spectacular.
    some would argue that it's obviously obvious
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    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasma Del Mar View Post
    This one time, at Coachella, this super drunk bro wondered into the Mojave while I was waiting for GY!BE. He asked me if I believed in Jesus. I told him I was an Atheist and it got kinda awkward.
    Luckily, someone found a beach ball and threw it away from the stage. He ran to it like a dog does a bone, and then I had a great weekend.
    You should have said "of course, It's clear someone's been doing the landscaping"

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    Also, regarding the Descartes theory - I suppose my stance is this: accepting for the sake of argument the prong that says man can only conceive of that which he's experienced (or however it was more eloquently stated prior), couldn't the track record of cultures believing in "gods" stem from the fairly universal shared experience of having parents (or at least a parent)? Every person is exposed to the concept of living things creating more living things - we all are born understanding the concept of living things having a "creator" entity. It doesn't seem to me to take too drastic a stretch of the imagination to think that at some point people started to question the origin of the world, and, absent the capacity for big bang-style theorizing, decided the world as they knew it had a "mother" or "father" as they did.
    But the nature of Gods being the creators of mankind isn't necessarily a consistent trend. Prevalent in the Judaic-derived religions, sure, but not so much in the others.

    Buddhists felt the touch of god too, created a story for it, and theirs doesn't involve any Creator mythology I don't believe. No idea how the Hindus did it. The Norse and the Egyptians... who the fuck knows.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    All of those traditions you mention have a creation myth that involves the universe (and then man directly or indirectly) sprouting from some sort of "mother" entity.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Buddhism doesn't.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Regardless--there is always going to be some kind of creation story. Creation though is not the defining aspect of the God sense. It is something we feel compelled to go in and backfill as it is a natural curiosity. No one "feels" the tale of creation--they weren't around for it.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Buddhism doesn't have a creator God because it isn't theistic.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Buddhism doesn't.
    That's because buddhism isn't really a religion in the same way as the others. It's the only one that concerns itself more with your current predicament rather than an eternal afterlife. They don't have a coherent mythos and don't pretend to. However all the traditions that predate and spawned the Buddha did. Buddhism is not really worth discussing in the context of religious deities and higher powers because they don't really claim to believe in any.



    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Regardless--there is always going to be some kind of creation story. Creation though is not the defining aspect of the God sense. It is something we feel compelled to go in and backfill as it is a natural curiosity. No one "feels" the tale of creation--they weren't around for it.
    There's always a creation story because man's not comfortable simply not knowing. So they make something up. Then you get enough people to believe it and all of a sudden it's a religious tradition. Of course nobody was "around for it". They are convinced by an authority figure and their own unwillingness to tolerate ambiguity.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Even Sam Harris is cool with Buddhism.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Right, and the nature of the creator story--as it relates to Malc's comment that perhaps the explanation is that we've all experienced being created and thus apply our father/mother perceptions onto God--is largely irrelevant. Our interactions with God are not of that nature, so any rationalization of what we experience as the power of God as being something that also created all the universe is a thought after the fact about what else it might be capable of.
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    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Right, and the nature of the creator story--as it relates to Malc's comment that perhaps the explanation is that we've all experienced being created and thus apply our father/mother perceptions onto God--is largely irrelevant. Our interactions with God are not of that nature, so any rationalization of what we experience as the power of God as being something that also created all the universe is a thought after the fact about what else it might be capable of.
    Just because our notion of God is more profound than a simple mom and pop doesn't mean it couldn't have been dreamed up.
    Omniscience does not necessarily have to exist for us to have a conception of it.

    By "interactions with god" are you talking about simply thinking about him (or HER) or are you talking about some sort of metaphysical experience of him? If the latter, please give an example.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Feeling God is hard to explain. Doesn't fit into the five senses. Sounds like crazy talk. Regardless, it happens.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Feeling God is hard to explain. Doesn't fit into the five senses. Sounds like crazy talk. Regardless, it happens.
    again I'm convinced you believe your senses completely define reality, but the truth is reality is a construct in your brain as it interprets your sensory input, and sometimes it doesn't interpret it exactly the way it's happening. It's perfectly normal to experience something that your five senses didn't necessarily construct on their own, and it in no way implies god.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    It's all a question of how much you trust that particular impulse.

    All I'm saying is that if it is a hallucination, it is one that has been had en masse by billions of people throughout human history. Which begs the question.
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  22. #82

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    So I'm curious, how can you prove that it doesn't imply God?
    Oh look it stopped snowing...

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    It's all a question of how much you trust that particular impulse.

    All I'm saying is that if it is a hallucination, it is one that has been had en masse by billions of people throughout human history. Which begs the question.
    The ubiquity of these transcendental type of experiences you're talking about is completely reasonable given that they're all working with basically the same hardware. Add a few charismatic individuals (either genuinely self-deceived or disingenuous) in the mix of generally impressionable ones and you've got religion.
    Last edited by jackstraw94086; 12-17-2013 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaks View Post
    So I'm curious, how can you prove that it doesn't imply God?
    You can't prove a negative claim. It's up to someone who says there is a god to prove that there is one.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    You can't prove a claim that exists outside of the five senses, either. The onus reverts back to you.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Right, and the nature of the creator story--as it relates to Malc's comment that perhaps the explanation is that we've all experienced being created and thus apply our father/mother perceptions onto God--is largely irrelevant. Our interactions with God are not of that nature, so any rationalization of what we experience as the power of God as being something that also created all the universe is a thought after the fact about what else it might be capable of.
    Well who says our interactions with God are not of that nature? One, I'm not sure that we can generalize all interactions with God of being of any shared "nature." Second, just going off of a kind of infantilized notion of "interacting with God", I'd say there are lots of obvious parallels to the parent/child relationship - asking for guidance or assistance, the child abiding by a set of rules prescribed by the parent..

    I mean, unless the different nature that you are speaking of is that my dad didn't create the universe but God did.
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    I may have just duplicated a point jack straw made. I just most likely said it better and I didn't name drop Richard Dawkins.
    Quote Originally Posted by ruetheday View Post
    I don't fucking care. I don't even know who the hell Dave Wang is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devin the Dude View Post
    you used to be that guy that just Dave Wang's everybody. that guy. he's gone now, and whoever you really are showed up, and that was utter disappointment.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    Well who says our interactions with God are not of that nature? One, I'm not sure that we can generalize all interactions with God of being of any shared "nature." Second, just going off of a kind of infantilized notion of "interacting with God", I'd say there are lots of obvious parallels to the parent/child relationship - asking for guidance or assistance, the child abiding by a set of rules prescribed by the parent..

    I mean, unless the different nature that you are speaking of is that my dad didn't create the universe but God did.
    I can qualify having been in my father's presence with a series of elements that fit into the five senses--I know what he looked like, what he smelled like, what he sounded like and felt like.

    If you know you have been in the presence of something else, something greater than yourself, and it held no physical form, its sound emanated from no visible location, had no smell, and despite no visible evidence that it was touching you, you could feel a sensation pass through your body that held no similarity to anything you'd ever touched with your hand before...
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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Well a ghost fucked me once. It was kind of like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ruetheday View Post
    I don't fucking care. I don't even know who the hell Dave Wang is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devin the Dude View Post
    you used to be that guy that just Dave Wang's everybody. that guy. he's gone now, and whoever you really are showed up, and that was utter disappointment.

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    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Similarly, personally speaking I've felt people who were close to me long after they were dead. In fact, if I want to focus on it, I can still summon them. But I know what they felt like.

    When you feel something that has nothing in common with anything you've encountered in reality... I don't see any other logical deduction unless you decide you're just crazy.
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