Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 129

Thread: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

  1. #1
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Okay so, here's my feeling, as someone who wasn't raised religiously:

    One of the things I find odd about most forms of Christianity is this whole thing where Jesus KNEW he was the son of God and that he HAD to die that day on the cross to wash man clean of all its sin...

    But isn't it really a more inspiring story if he was just a guy?

    Just a regular guy, didn't believe he was God's son destined to die, but just really passionate about God--maybe had some visions or shit--and saw some stuff in the Church he didn't like and started raising hell about it. And it was SO FUCKING BALLSY that he raised hell about it, because to do so was to pretty much guarantee he would die for his principles. You can't grow up in a place the Romans are running and think you're gonna cause a whole bunch of trouble and call out the people running your church and preach this whole other feel-good concept and not think that you're gonna suffer for it. It even got so far, the Romans were BEGGING him to just cave in and renounce what he'd said and he was all, "... nah, fuck that." And he fucking DIED on that principle. For what he thought felt like the right version of God, to him.

    THAT'S some gutsy shit. To be divine and make it so he knew this was what he had to do... not really as gangsta.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  2. #2
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The Mission
    Posts
    12,098

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    The thing is you still have that story. The apostles were just ordinary people and almost all of them were martyred doing just that, running around and preaching and causing trouble. Plus they spend most of the gospels questioning Jesus and being timid and weak. Then Jesus dies and they show more weakness. Then Jesus comes back and they change and grow. And end up bold leaders of the early church and dying for what they believe in.

    There are plenty of other martyr stories, too. What sets Jesus apart is that he was God; he was already in paradise... and gave that up to walk amongst us, heal us, teach us, try and help us. And then he gave that up to die for us. That was still a choice. Look at Gethsemane. It was a constant, conscious choice because he was still God, because he at any given time still had the power to stop it. That takes a stronger will; most people would have second thoughts. This was the last temptation of Christ.


    [I grew up religious but am not religious. I am talking about the story, not claiming it is true or that anybody should do anything about it.]
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

  3. #3

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Honestly, if Catholicism actually preached Jesus' ideals, I probably wouldn't mind it so much. Love thy neighbor would be an acceptable motto for anyone to have.

    Pope Francis is doing good things. Let's hope the rest of the religion follows his example.

  4. #4
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    The thing is you still have that story. The apostles were just ordinary people and almost all of them were martyred doing just that, running around and preaching and causing trouble. Plus they spend most of the gospels questioning Jesus and being timid and weak. Then Jesus dies and they show more weakness. Then Jesus comes back and they change and grow. And end up bold leaders of the early church and dying for what they believe in.

    There are plenty of other martyr stories, too. What sets Jesus apart is that he was God; he was already in paradise... and gave that up to walk amongst us, heal us, teach us, try and help us. And then he gave that up to die for us. That was still a choice. Look at Gethsemane. It was a constant, conscious choice because he was still God, because he at any given time still had the power to stop it. That takes a stronger will; most people would have second thoughts. This was the last temptation of Christ.


    [I grew up religious but am not religious. I am talking about the story, not claiming it is true or that anybody should do anything about it.]
    God had a conscious choice to stop doing the thing he had decided he needed to do? That required will? Doesn't the nature of being God--even if you're somehow also a human incarnation--make the entire issue of him possessing moments of self-doubt seem... well... unGodlike?

    Also, anyone else find the massive differences between the Old Testament Jehovah and the New Testament Jesus really fascinating? Not so much in the sense that they're contradictory and that it therefore makes one less likely to be true, but does anyone else ever think... maybe he evolved? The young God in the Old Testament acted almost like an adolescent granted omnipotence--consumed with being worshipped, vengeful, putting his creations through tests just for the fuck of it... then he kinda disappears for a while in the history and he reappears as a human preaching an entirely different set of values. Wouldn't it be cool if God had a change of heart? Realized he'd been acting like a real dick for several thousand years and went into his room to think about what kind of deity he really wants to be when he grows up, comes back with a new approach and decides to go down to Earth and put on his first big show in a long time to usher in the new set of thoughts and attitudes?

    I dunno. It feels to me like either you need to embrace the fallibility and development of God and his thoughts in the same way that Jesus had a crisis of faith when he realized how much it was going to hurt to carry out his plan of becoming human and sacrificing himself, or you need to say that he always knew what to do at all times... in which case what Jesus went through was easy. Shit, tell me at 33 that I could be martyred for all eternity and become like the most important thing in human history and I'll hop up on that cross.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  5. #5

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

  6. #6
    old school Drewski27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California's Elbow
    Posts
    5,283

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    God had a conscious choice to stop doing the thing he had decided he needed to do? That required will? Doesn't the nature of being God--even if you're somehow also a human incarnation--make the entire issue of him possessing moments of self-doubt seem... well... unGodlike?
    Growing up Catholic, this was what always bugged me. Among other things, that is. And I like the idea of the Old Testament as the story of God as a child, only going off somewhere to grow up. That would make for something more believable if you were to teach me as a kid in Sunday school.
    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyCM View Post
    ICYMI: Today the two board members with the most questionable approach to music held mirrors up to each other; no one learned a thing and nothing will change.

    September 24 - Modest Mouse - Vina Robles Amp.
    October 3/4 - Desert Stars - Pioneertown
    October 17 - Massive Attack - SB Bowl
    November 8 - Slowdive - Theater at Ace
    November 9 - Slowdive - Theater at Ace
    April 10/11/12 - Coachella wknd 1 - Indio

  7. #7
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The Mission
    Posts
    12,098

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    The other part is a deeper conversation so I am going to focus on this bit for now because I can cut/paste.

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Also, anyone else find the massive differences between the Old Testament Jehovah and the New Testament Jesus really fascinating? Not so much in the sense that they're contradictory and that it therefore makes one less likely to be true, but does anyone else ever think... maybe he evolved? The young God in the Old Testament acted almost like an adolescent granted omnipotence--consumed with being worshipped, vengeful, putting his creations through tests just for the fuck of it... then he kinda disappears for a while in the history and he reappears as a human preaching an entirely different set of values. Wouldn't it be cool if God had a change of heart? Realized he'd been acting like a real dick for several thousand years and went into his room to think about what kind of deity he really wants to be when he grows up, comes back with a new approach and decides to go down to Earth and put on his first big show in a long time to usher in the new set of thoughts and attitudes?
    There is certainly the idea that the Bible actually tells of a series of gods/conceptions of god. (In my not-believing-any-of-it state that is what I tend to think; there's inconsistency because there's no real god that everything is based on).

    But there are also those that work to reconcile the story and see God in the way you are proposing. See, say, God: A Biography by Jack Miles. He talks about just such of a change of heart, suggesting that it happened after the Job incident.

    I am going to quote what someone else said about it (in part because I have not actually read Miles' book)

    I've always hated the Book of Job because I thought the lesson was ruined by letting Job get all his stuff back.

    Then I read Jack Miles' interpretation of it in "God: A Biography" in which he demonstrates that the Bible's precedent for clever wordplay means that the ending cannot be taken at the face value it currently is.

    For example, the RSV has Job recanting by saying:

    "I know that thou canst do all things,
    and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted.
    'Who is this that hides counsel
    without knowledge?'
    Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
    'Hear and I will speak:
    I wil question you, and you declare to me'
    I had heard of the by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees thee;
    therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

    Which God finds suitably humble and returns all his stuff. (Except the dead kids.)

    Miles puts a lot of detail into why this passage should actually be translated in a compltely different way. After God thunders and fumes, Job has nothing to say but:

    (paraphrased)

    "You know you can do anything.
    Nothing can stop you.
    You ask, 'Who is this ignorant muddler?'
    Well, I said more than I knew, wonders quite beyond me.
    'You listen, and I'll talk,' you say,
    'I'll question you, and you tell me.'
    Word of you had reached my ears,
    but now that my eyes have seen you,
    I shudder with sorrow for mortal clay."

    Job does what no man had ever done: he stands in judgment of God. God is so shamed by this judgment that he restores all of Job's health and wealth (but not the dead kids). And then from the end of the Book of Job to the end of the Tanakh, God is silent: he never speaks directly to humankind again.

    And when he does surface, it's later, as Christ, a figure through which God can experience human suffering and attempt to redeem it. So it looks like the real lesson in all this was learned by God, not Job. So in this light,its actually my favorite Book.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

  8. #8
    Banned marooko's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In your mouth!
    Posts
    19,687

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    this didn't actually start off as a rational discussion of, but more of a marvel "what if...." discussion.

  9. #9
    old school ThatGirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,208

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Krellish View Post
    Honestly, if Catholicism actually preached Jesus' ideals, I probably wouldn't mind it so much. Love thy neighbor would be an acceptable motto for anyone to have.

    Pope Francis is doing good things. Let's hope the rest of the religion follows his example.
    You don't often find a lot of God in church unfortunately.
    Quote Originally Posted by M Sparks View Post
    It's all riding on this. You've got big dreams to ride to the top of the Flash Mob world. Well internet fame costs. And right now is when you start paying for it...in sweat.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    hey. get your own colonoscopy thread, bitch.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    It always bothers me that Jesus is worshipped as God. Technically, he is a prophet that God sent and he still retains some humanness. Why believe that he is God? Jesus refers to God as his father, therefore God is a separate entity. I know it's nit picky, I just can't get around it.
    Oh look it stopped snowing...

  11. #11
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    I always want to call bullshit on Catholicism claiming its a monotheism. The whole Holy Trinity thing is a cop out. You are polytheistic, dammit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Hell, there's actually something of a nice poetic element to the idea that there are two forms of the power--a form that cannot exist in any perceivable way on this human plane, and another form that exists only on this human plane. Perhaps after creating humanity and seeing all the wild shit that went on, God decided he needed a presence here on Earth in a human form so that he could actually interact with us--I operate under the assumption that what "God" is, it does not exist anywhere within the boundaries of what we consider to be sight, sound, touch, etc., and thus our only contact with it is that almost impossible to quantify SENSE that there's somebody up there.

    And why bother with the Holy Ghost? Why the fuck can't God just make her pregnant? He used to do all kinds of shit. Why bother with the Trinity?

    I kinda like to imagine that the real truth is so bizarre and complicated, God decided long ago that there's no way he could ever communicate it properly to us, so every religion that springs up is just another experiment of sorts by him. He reaches his noodly appendage out to touch the head of someone from each culture (prophets) and due to a variety of cultural differences, differences in language, etc., we ended up with all these unique interpretations. Each of his prophets gets zapped with a big bolt of truth but there's still ALL the questions of the world left to answer, and they do their best to just fill it in with some rationalizations that sound like a good call.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  12. #12

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    I kinda like to imagine that the real truth is so bizarre and complicated, God decided long ago that there's no way he could ever communicate it properly to us, so every religion that springs up is just another experiment of sorts by him. He reaches his noodly appendage out to touch the head of someone from each culture (prophets) and due to a variety of cultural differences, differences in language, etc., we ended up with all these unique interpretations. Each of his prophets gets zapped with a big bolt of truth but there's still ALL the questions of the world left to answer, and they do their best to just fill it in with some rationalizations that sound like a good call.
    That sounds pretty accurate to me, although I never pictured God as being "noodly".
    Oh look it stopped snowing...

  13. #13
    Coachella Junkie SoulDischarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Vampire State Building
    Posts
    16,203

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Okay so, here's my feeling, as someone who wasn't raised religiously:

    One of the things I find odd about most forms of Christianity is this whole thing where Jesus KNEW he was the son of God and that he HAD to die that day on the cross to wash man clean of all its sin...

    But isn't it really a more inspiring story if he was just a guy?

    Just a regular guy, didn't believe he was God's son destined to die, but just really passionate about God--maybe had some visions or shit--and saw some stuff in the Church he didn't like and started raising hell about it. And it was SO FUCKING BALLSY that he raised hell about it, because to do so was to pretty much guarantee he would die for his principles. You can't grow up in a place the Romans are running and think you're gonna cause a whole bunch of trouble and call out the people running your church and preach this whole other feel-good concept and not think that you're gonna suffer for it. It even got so far, the Romans were BEGGING him to just cave in and renounce what he'd said and he was all, "... nah, fuck that." And he fucking DIED on that principle. For what he thought felt like the right version of God, to him.

    THAT'S some gutsy shit. To be divine and make it so he knew this was what he had to do... not really as gangsta.
    Obligatory (6:25 for the relevant part)

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Thanks for giving us the opportunity to not give a fuck again.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Never Nude
    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

  15. #15
    Loveable Curmudgeon TallGuyCM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Doc Sportello's hood
    Posts
    20,079

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    "The notion that your destination in the afterlife is based upon what you *believe* is so preposterous that only mankind would be dumb enough to create it, and only mankind would be dumb enough to believe it."
    12/04 - Angel Olson - El Rey (?)
    12/06 - Dr. John - Royce Hall (?)
    12/14 - Cat Stevens - Nokia
    12/20 - Stevie Wonder - Forum (?)
    1/10 - Flesh Eaters - Echoplex (?)


    Quote Originally Posted by getbetter View Post
    I finally made it through a listen of Sun Kil Moon - Benji and had put it on maybe 4 times til I could finally feel mentally like, "just fuck it just let this guy blabber on" while I'm doing paperwork .
    last.fm, if you care

    Twitter, if you dare

  16. #16
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Ugh, I fucking hate hearing David Cross talk about religion. I've seen that special. Naturally, that would be your fucking contribution to the thread, you content-less jerkoff.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  17. #17
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The Mission
    Posts
    12,098

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeaks View Post
    It always bothers me that Jesus is worshipped as God. Technically, he is a prophet that God sent and he still retains some humanness. Why believe that he is God? Jesus refers to God as his father, therefore God is a separate entity. I know it's nit picky, I just can't get around it.
    If you're going to accept that there's a magical sky being and that Jesus was his son I don't see it as more trouble to accept Jesus' claims to be one with the father. What I am saying is you seem to be taking this all very literally, considering everything from a very down to Earth perspective... which is going to cause problems all around.

    But of course there are plenty of people who did not accept that Jesus was god. There are also plenty of modern Christian leaders and denominations that deny or question the divinity of Christ.


    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    I always want to call bullshit on Catholicism claiming its a monotheism.
    Congratulations, you're 54,798,147th on the list.


    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    I kinda like to imagine that the real truth is so bizarre and complicated, God decided long ago that there's no way he could ever communicate it properly to us, so every religion that springs up is just another experiment of sorts by him. He reaches his noodly appendage out to touch the head of someone from each culture (prophets) and due to a variety of cultural differences, differences in language, etc., we ended up with all these unique interpretations. Each of his prophets gets zapped with a big bolt of truth but there's still ALL the questions of the world left to answer, and they do their best to just fill it in with some rationalizations that sound like a good call.
    That's nice and poetic but it really doesn't account for the significant, completely incompatible differences in beliefs. I don't see a convincing argument that there's actually something behind it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

  18. #18
    MENACING Courtney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    15,889

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    But there are also those that work to reconcile the story and see God in the way you are proposing. See, say, God: A Biography by Jack Miles. He talks about just such of a change of heart, suggesting that it happened after the Job incident.

    I am going to quote what someone else said about it (in part because I have not actually read Miles' book)
    I highly, highly recommend reading God: A Biography. I might be biased because I worked as a research assistant for Jack, and he is by far the smartest, most spot-on thinker about religion that I have ever encountered. I mean, the thing won a Pulitzer.

  19. #19
    Coachella Junkie fatbastard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Pasadena
    Posts
    12,285

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Who killed him?
    Whiskey Sour

    2 oz blended whiskey
    Juice of 1/2 lemon
    1/2 tsp powdered sugar
    1 cherry
    1/2 slice lemon

    Shake blended whiskey, juice of lemon, and powdered sugar with ice and strain into a whiskey sour glass. Decorate with the half-slice of lemon, top with the cherry, and serve.

  20. #20
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    That's nice and poetic but it really doesn't account for the significant, completely incompatible differences in beliefs. I don't see a convincing argument that there's actually something behind it all.
    ... a convincing argument that there's actually something behind it all? Meaning a convincing argument for God's existence? Well I mean, Descartes proved it in Meditations a long ass time ago, as I'm sure you've heard me already recount on this board already. But the basic proof goes like this:

    1. Man has imagination, but his imagination is limited to things of which he possesses a priori knowledge. He cannot conceive of anything which he has not experienced with his five senses already. Man thinks up a unicorn, he can only do so because he has already seen (a) a horse and (b) a horn, then he combines them.

    2. Throughout all human history (that we can examine, at least) man has been compelled to conceive of gods.

    3. The nature and quality of God(s) almost always includes several aspects which do not exist anywhere in nature. Only in the conception of gods does a quality like omniscience or omnipresence appear.

    Therefore: man must have at some point experienced sensory interaction with God(s) to create an a priori basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  21. #21

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    proved it


    basic proof goes like this



    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

  22. #22
    Coachella Junkie stinkbutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    9,656

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by TallGuyCM View Post
    "The notion that your destination in the afterlife is based upon what you *believe* is so preposterous that only mankind would be dumb enough to create it, and only mankind would be dumb enough to believe it."
    *tips fedora before leaving the room
    Quote Originally Posted by roboto View Post
    And stinkbutt leaving a motorhead set when you know he's dying just to talk shit ? Your a shitty person as well .please let mja give you an anal love disease .

  23. #23
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Zip City
    Posts
    7,487

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Well I mean, Descartes proved it in Meditations a long ass time ago
    And Hume and Kant successively showed why the argument was meaningless almost as long ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    awwww damn.. those homies proved that his proof was weeeeeeeeak !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

  25. #25
    old school kvnty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Sodom & Gomorrah
    Posts
    3,612

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    Okay so, here's my feeling, as someone who wasn't raised religiously:

    One of the things I find odd about most forms of Christianity is this whole thing where Jesus KNEW he was the son of God and that he HAD to die that day on the cross to wash man clean of all its sin...

    But isn't it really a more inspiring story if he was just a guy?

    Just a regular guy, didn't believe he was God's son destined to die, but just really passionate about God--maybe had some visions or shit--and saw some stuff in the Church he didn't like and started raising hell about it. And it was SO FUCKING BALLSY that he raised hell about it, because to do so was to pretty much guarantee he would die for his principles. You can't grow up in a place the Romans are running and think you're gonna cause a whole bunch of trouble and call out the people running your church and preach this whole other feel-good concept and not think that you're gonna suffer for it. It even got so far, the Romans were BEGGING him to just cave in and renounce what he'd said and he was all, "... nah, fuck that." And he fucking DIED on that principle. For what he thought felt like the right version of God, to him.

    THAT'S some gutsy shit. To be divine and make it so he knew this was what he had to do... not really as gangsta.

    If Jesus Christ really were the son of God, why did He curse you with such a baby dick?
    Quote Originally Posted by fakekvnty View Post
    As awkward as the time I force-felched you?
    Quote Originally Posted by fakekvnty View Post
    You bitchez will all CUM-ba-ya when y'all see my pee-shooter.
    Quote Originally Posted by fakekvnty View Post
    All you ladybois want inside this pink slip

  26. #26
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    And Hume and Kant successively showed why the argument was meaningless almost as long ago.
    Please cite this supposed proof? Hume was generally pretty flawless, but largely because all he ever did was poke holes in other people's postulates and never made any of his own. I recall reading a couple of his pieces that refuted some other attempts at "proving" God's existence, but I don't remember ever seeing one specifically about the a priori argument at its heart. Descartes, in that same section of Meditations, unfortunately did not stop where I stop--he went on to make a bunch of very Christian-specific assertions about the qualities that God must possess. I think I vaguely recall reading Hume reaming Descartes out for those logical failures, but just because Descartes was wrong for 20 percent of the piece doesn't mean you can just dismiss the other 80 percent that preceded it.

    Kant, frankly, is a cunt. Never impressed me. Also, have no knowledge of this supposed refuting of Descartes' argument--cite it?



    or, better yet, instead of just sitting back and saying "so-and-so disproved that," how about you actually use some words to make it seem like you read, comprehended, and retained any of the information you're spouting off about?
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

  27. #27
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The Mission
    Posts
    12,098

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    ... a convincing argument that there's actually something behind it all? Meaning a convincing argument for God's existence? Well I mean, Descartes proved it in Meditations a long ass time ago, as I'm sure you've heard me already recount on this board already. But the basic proof goes like this:

    1. Man has imagination, but his imagination is limited to things of which he possesses a priori knowledge. He cannot conceive of anything which he has not experienced with his five senses already. Man thinks up a unicorn, he can only do so because he has already seen (a) a horse and (b) a horn, then he combines them.

    2. Throughout all human history (that we can examine, at least) man has been compelled to conceive of gods.

    3. The nature and quality of God(s) almost always includes several aspects which do not exist anywhere in nature. Only in the conception of gods does a quality like omniscience or omnipresence appear.
    1. I take issue with your limits on the imagination. Also just like we can go from the flooding of a river to the flooding of the entire world we can go from the leader of our village to the high ruler of our tribe to the king ruling over all the world to the God ruling over all the kings. King + more is an entirely reasonable extrapolation.

    Or, historically, this often actually went Tribe leader < Local deity < Ruler of the gods. And then various people (first powerful one we know of is Akhenaten) said their god wasn't just the most powerful of the gods but the only one. Again, none of this is beyond the imagining.

    We would also have to allow so many other bizarre things from other myths, religions and stories. Fantasy and science fiction writers give priests a run for their money.

    2. Ahh, circular reasoning, my old friend. And for when you reword it, bullshit.

    3. Omniscience and omnipresence are both Thing + More. And neither make any sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

  28. #28
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Zip City
    Posts
    7,487

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    or, better yet, instead of just sitting back and saying "so-and-so disproved that," how about you actually use some words to make it seem like you read, comprehended, and retained any of the information you're spouting off about?
    a) do you seriously believe in the ontological argument, and b) are you interested in actually discussing this, or is this just an opportunity to argue for the sake of arguing?
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  29. #29
    Daft Punky Junkie BROKENDOLL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    15,667

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts


  30. #30
    Banned thelastgreatman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Wasteland (LA)
    Posts
    13,012

    Default Re: Let's Have One Rational Conversation About Jesus And See How Long It Lasts

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    1. I take issue with your limits on the imagination. Also just like we can go from the flooding of a river to the flooding of the entire world we can go from the leader of our village to the high ruler of our tribe to the king ruling over all the world to the God ruling over all the kings. King + more is an entirely reasonable extrapolation.

    Or, historically, this often actually went Tribe leader < Local deity < Ruler of the gods. And then various people (first powerful one we know of is Akhenaten) said their god wasn't just the most powerful of the gods but the only one. Again, none of this is beyond the imagining.

    We would also have to allow so many other bizarre things from other myths, religions and stories. Fantasy and science fiction writers give priests a run for their money.

    2. Ahh, circular reasoning, my old friend. And for when you reword it, bullshit.

    3. Omniscience and omnipresence are both Thing + More. And neither make any sense.
    2 is not circular reasoning whatsoever. You need to revisit what you think that term means. The concept of gods have popped up in pretty much every society in documented human history, no? These people didn't get the premise from each other. Different cultures from all over the world--none of whom possibly crossed paths for the most part until the last few thousand years--all were somehow "inspired" to believe that there were deities. So your position is that all these different people separated by thousands of miles of land, from completely different backgrounds, completely different colors of skin, climates, etc., all independently took to worship because... why? Is God some kind of unavoidable inherent delusion built in to humanity? If every type of human from all these various backgrounds all found themselves conceiving of this same thing, why is your assumption that it's a delusion?

    3. I reject that premise with omnipresence. That's like saying that seeing a glass of water is the same thing as seeing the ocean.
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
    Look, your parenting is yours and Randy's business alone.
    Fans of TheLastGreatMan Accessory Shop

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-09-2013, 01:36 AM
  2. Need lasts minute camping week1? We have room.
    By FerrisWheel in forum Camping/Lodging
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-12-2012, 09:30 PM
  3. PLEASE BE RATIONAL AND RESIST BUYING NOW
    By ludimali in forum Passes
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-12-2011, 04:38 PM
  4. Can you not have a normal conversation?
    By listitrist in forum Misc. Lounge
    Replies: 150
    Last Post: 01-23-2009, 10:58 PM
  5. A conversation with bugonyourlip
    By Stefinitely Maybe in forum Music Lounge
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-13-2007, 07:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •