Someone explain to me why it's ethical to force-bundle certain tickets w/the shuttle

[Archie Bunker]

Okay, so Coachella has an overpriced shuttle now for $50. Great. It was actually needed, and those who find it worth to pay $50 for it, I can understand and Goldenvoice should charge what they feel the free market will support.

HOWEVER...

WHY are a certain percentage of tickets force-bundled with the shuttle, to where you can only buy passes WITH the shuttle included?

Shouldn't the shuttle always be an OPTIONAL add-on?

Since it's not an optional add-on, you are forced to buy it when you don't need it when the "regular" tickets sell out, and then waste your time trying to sell the shuttle passes back to others.

Even worse, Front Gate was forcing people to buy Weekend 2 passes WITH shuttle this morning, yet you can get Weekend 2 passes WITHOUT shuttle since about 1pm!!

WTF?!

This looks like an unethical way to force people to buy something they don't need.

[aphrael]

Indio demands that x% of the attendees use shuttles. The forced bundling is a hack to get around the fact that too many people would prefer to drive.

If GV wanted to be real dicks about it, they could switch to a model where they charge for parking.

[gaypalmsprings]

No one is forced to buy anything.

[omerta]

Indio demands that x% of the attendees use shuttles. The forced bundling is a hack to get around the fact that too many people would prefer to drive.

If GV wanted to be real dicks about it, they could switch to a model where they charge for parking.

Good point about the community's demand.
Plus, they need certain amount of money to run shuttles as smoothly as they've been doing.
I have worked with some festival organizers here in Korea and the shuttle thing was a huge pain in the ass.
I was so impressed by coachella's shuttles.
It might be unethical but inevitable, i guess.

[JustSteve]

You are a miserable pest, Archie.

You've started 8 dumb threads in the last 24 hours or so, none of which add any value to this community. The worst.

[Dbaked]

weekend 2 GA passes are still available. When you don't have a job an extra $50 is a lot on top of an already pricey Ticket. Weekend 1 GA ticket $400 / with shuttle pass i won't use, or weekend 2 GA $350. Weekend 2 it is..

I think its stupid, and shuttle passes should be optional

[shaggyduck]

It's obviously that it's a hack, as aphrael stated.

Otherwise you have a huge clusterfuck of people trying to park and realizing afterward... "derrrrppp we shoulda maybe tryd to use the shurtles."

[Bumblebee]

I thought the wristband/shuttle/car camping package was a bit of a slap in the face.

[guedita]

When "ethics" is misconstrued as "economic annoyance": The Archie Bunker Tale

[Hannahrain]

Force-bundling is the only way to make succulent shuttle pass foie gras.

[omerta]

Can we make a thread about the no outside food/beverage policy with ethical approach now?

[blackhatspydog]

You are a miserable pest, Archie.

You've started 8 dumb threads in the last 24 hours or so, none of which add any value to this community. The worst.

Arrogant hipster cunt.

[bmack86]

weekend 2 GA passes are still available. When you don't have a job an extra $50 is a lot on top of an already pricey Ticket. Weekend 1 GA ticket $400 / with shuttle pass i won't use, or weekend 2 GA $350. Weekend 2 it is..

I think its stupid, and shuttle passes should be optional

I hate to say it because I'm in the same position, but if you don't have a job and $50 is a concern maybe you should rethink Coachella.

[insbordnat]

I've always liked you bmack.

[Archie Bunker]

When "ethics" is misconstrued as "economic annoyance": The Archie Bunker Tale

No.

Economic annoyance is when something is just too expensive for your taste.

I mentioned "ethics" here because it looked like an obnoxious way to force certain people to buy a service they completely don't need if they want to attend the festival.

This runs counterintuitive to the whole purpose of the shuttles -- to lighten traffic/parking issues. If many people purchasing the bundled shuttle passes are not going to use them, or if they simply sell them to others who were otherwise going to buy them anyway, then this has accomplished nothing besides fattening Goldenvoice's already fat wallet and inconveniencing people.

Aphrael is likely correct that this was done because Indio requires a certain percentage of people to use the shuttles, but like many well-meaning government policies, this fails and just costs the average consumer more.

Perhaps charging for parking and lowering the shuttle fee might be a better solution. At least it would be fair, and wouldn't penalize the people who couldn't get the first batch of tickets an extra $50.

[lehorne]

start a thread selling it. Put that thing's ass out on the street.

[bmack86]

Aphrael is likely correct that this was done because Indio requires a certain percentage of people to use the shuttles, but like many well-meaning government policies, this fails and just costs the average consumer more.

Perhaps charging for parking and lowering the shuttle fee might be a better solution. At least it would be fair, and wouldn't penalize the people who couldn't get the first batch of tickets an extra $50.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

[Radtechnique]

When "ethics" is misconstrued as "economic annoyance": The Archie Bunker Tale

Purrfect

[guedita]

No.

Economic annoyance is when something is just too expensive for your taste.

I mentioned "ethics" here because it looked like an obnoxious way to force certain people to buy a service they completely don't need if they want to attend the festival.

Annoyance/Obnoxious -- thank you for clarifying.

[Miroir Noir]

I think the Coachella shuttle pass mandate is an unconstitutional violation of the Commerce Clause.

[aphrael]

> I mentioned "ethics" here because it looked like an obnoxious way to force certain people to buy a service they completely don't need if they want to attend the festival.

Would you also argue that it's unethical for Microsoft to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows? I mean, I don't want IE, the first thing I do when I get a new machine is install a better browser, and some amount of what I pay for Windows is paying for the development and maintenance of IE.

Or how about airplane tickets and baggage? Is it unethical for airlines to choose to not charge you for baggage, but instead to build the price of that into the ticket?

Goldenvoice has decided to bundle the cost of parking in with the ticket and make everyone pay it, and it's chosen to only sell certain tickets with an add-on for shuttles. I don't think either of them is *unethical*; they have the ethical freedom to offer their product in bundles of their choice, and since their product is in no way a *necessity*, failure to unbundle doesn't strike me as even having the potential to raise ethical concerns.

[georgeorwell]

> I mentioned "ethics" here because it looked like an obnoxious way to force certain people to buy a service they completely don't need if they want to attend the festival.

Would you also argue that it's unethical for Microsoft to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows? I mean, I don't want IE, the first thing I do when I get a new machine is install a better browser, and some amount of what I pay for Windows is paying for the development and maintenance of IE.

Or how about airplane tickets and baggage? Is it unethical for airlines to choose to not charge you for baggage, but instead to build the price of that into the ticket?

Goldenvoice has decided to bundle the cost of parking in with the ticket and make everyone pay it, and it's chosen to only sell certain tickets with an add-on for shuttles. I don't think either of them is *unethical*; they have the ethical freedom to offer their product in bundles of their choice, and since their product is in no way a *necessity*, failure to unbundle doesn't strike me as even having the potential to raise ethical concerns.

excellent post. nice to see some good logic without low end sarcasm/name calling

[Archie Bunker]

> I mentioned "ethics" here because it looked like an obnoxious way to force certain people to buy a service they completely don't need if they want to attend the festival.

Would you also argue that it's unethical for Microsoft to bundle Internet Explorer with Windows? I mean, I don't want IE, the first thing I do when I get a new machine is install a better browser, and some amount of what I pay for Windows is paying for the development and maintenance of IE.

Or how about airplane tickets and baggage? Is it unethical for airlines to choose to not charge you for baggage, but instead to build the price of that into the ticket?

Goldenvoice has decided to bundle the cost of parking in with the ticket and make everyone pay it, and it's chosen to only sell certain tickets with an add-on for shuttles. I don't think either of them is *unethical*; they have the ethical freedom to offer their product in bundles of their choice, and since their product is in no way a *necessity*, failure to unbundle doesn't strike me as even having the potential to raise ethical concerns.

Perhaps "ethical" was the wrong word. I think the better term is "fair". I referred to ethics because I meant ethics regarding how the longtime Coachella fanbase is being treated by Goldenvoice.

I would be totally fine if Goldenvoice charged a little bit more for each ticket and made the shuttle cheaper (or free), thus satisfying the need to provide enough shuttle service to keep Indio happy. This would also legitimately reduce traffic at Coachella, as more people would actually take the shuttle.

Ticket prices always figure in the cost of everything -- the cost of the performers, the cost of the venue, the cost of the help, etc.

In this case, the forced-bundling of the shuttle was arbitrary and punished people who either didn't know about the 8-month-old presale or weren't randomly picked by the system back then to get a ticket for Week 1. People were also "forced" to buy shuttle tickets for Week 2 during the first few hours of the general sale, despite tens of thousands of non-bundled tickets still being available. (I am guessing GV consciously did this, worrying Week 2 wouldn't sell out and they would have far too few shuttle tickets sold.)

It just looked like they turned the whole shuttle thing from a good idea to alleviate traffic into an arbitrary way to hit random people for an extra $50 and not accomplish the goal of the shuttle in the first place. If you have a shuttle pass and are with 3 friends WITHOUT such passes, are you going to ride with them in the car, or take the shuttle by yourself? Obviously you know the answer. Forcing people to buy shuttle passes only alleviates traffic if EVERYONE in the group has one. This is why the random requirement to make certain people get shuttle passes and not others fails to accomplish traffic alleviation.

I just hated the way GV handled this. The city of Indio says to them, "We're requiring this year that a certain percentage of people need to ride the shuttle", and they conclude, "What a pain in the ass. Let's just make certain people buy the passes even if they don't need them, and that will be good enough to tell Indio we did what they wanted."

[mountmccabe]

I would be totally fine if Goldenvoice charged a little bit more for each ticket and made the shuttle cheaper (or free), thus satisfying the need to provide enough shuttle service to keep Indio happy. This would also legitimately reduce traffic at Coachella, as more people would actually take the shuttle.

What makes you think this isn't happening? What makes you think the funds to run the shuttles comes entirely from the shuttle pass fees?

Ticket prices always figure in the cost of everything -- the cost of the performers, the cost of the venue, the cost of the help, etc.

Food, festival t-shirts, water, a camping spot, access to VIP. It's great that festival pass prices cover everything!

In this case, the forced-bundling of the shuttle was arbitrary and punished people who either didn't know about the 8-month-old presale or weren't randomly picked by the system back then to get a ticket for Week 1.

Are the people who didn't manage to get any pass for the festival being arbitrarily punished? Or did they have the same opportunity as everyone else?

People were also "forced" to buy shuttle tickets for Week 2 during the first few hours of the general sale, despite tens of thousands of non-bundled tickets still being available. (I am guessing GV consciously did this, worrying Week 2 wouldn't sell out and they would have far too few shuttle tickets sold.)

OK this, if true, seems rather squicky. But "tens of thousands" seems way off, especially with all week two passes selling out within a day. I am sure there were some unbundled passes available after they were reported as Sold Out but that is mostly due to orders not going through, credit cards denied and such. Where are you getting that "tens of thousands" number from? It is also possible that there was some sort of error from Front Gate (which, I know, is hard to believe).

I also find your rather uncharitable guess ridiculous as I can't imagine they had any real worry about Week 2 not selling out.

If you have a shuttle pass and are with 3 friends WITHOUT such passes, are you going to ride with them in the car, or take the shuttle by yourself? Obviously you know the answer. Forcing people to buy shuttle passes only alleviates traffic if EVERYONE in the group has one. This is why the random requirement to make certain people get shuttle passes and not others fails to accomplish traffic alleviation.

Yeah, you convince your friends to buy shuttle passes on the secondary market because if there were that many people who were forced to buy bundled shuttle passes they will be readily available, and for less than $50.

Or if you really want to drive you sell your shuttle pass and consider whatever you lose to be your parking/late pass purchase fee.

That is to say since people paid money for these passes they're going to try to make use of them (driving to a shuttle lot or finding lodging near the shuttle line) or reselling them to those who can. I know when I was considering lodging for 2012 I looked at places convenient to the shuttle lines (though I did end up staying walking distance instead).

I just hated the way GV handled this. The city of Indio says to them, "We're requiring this year that a certain percentage of people need to ride the shuttle", and they conclude, "What a pain in the ass. Let's just make certain people buy the passes even if they don't need them, and that will be good enough to tell Indio we did what they wanted."

People won't value the shuttle if it's free.

And I don't know the details of what Indio required, the finances or usage statistics of the shuttle system and neither do you.

You got stuck with a shuttle pass because a whole lot of people bought tickets before you. Early bird specials and better seats going first are perfectly normal, acceptable things in other situations, I don't see how this is all that different. Except that what you paid for as an extra has value.

[Archie Bunker]

The Coachella sale process isn't "early bird gets the worm".

This is because their order in allocating tickets is apparently random, and NOT first-come-first-served.

Even the pre-sale isn't necessarily rewarding early birds, because many people don't get ANY tickets despite desperately trying -- especially for Week 1.

But that's not really the issue here.

The issue is that the shuttle-bundling is an abritrary add-on to only SOME of the tickets, and does very little to alleviate traffic if many shuttle pass holders don't want or use them.

I have no problem with Goldenvoice charging what they feel is optimal for ticket prices. They're a business. They are here to make money, and I understand that.

But it looks like the shuttle costs are being arbitrarily passed on disproportionately to certain people, and they're not even accomplishing what Indio is trying to force them to do regarding traffic alleviation.

I have no idea what you mean by "people won't value the shuttle if it's free". Of course they will. The ones that value the shuttle are people who don't want to hassle with the driving/parking situation. However, I bet a lot of people are choosing to hassle with it simply because shuttle prices are so high. If it was cheaper/free, MORE people would use it, not fewer. And if lower shuttle prices wouldn't support the shuttle system, then raise all of the ticket prices to compensate -- but don't unfairly burden a certain random percentage with the cost.

That's my point.

BTW, just saying that people can sell their shuttle passes on the secondary market isn't a good solution. It's a pain in the ass, and Coachella patrons shouldn't be forced to do this just because of Goldenvoice's stupid bunding system.

Let's say that Indio requires them to sell 1 shuttle pass for every 10 admissions sold.

If the shuttle pass is $50, they can just raise the price by $5 on all tickets (something most people will barely notice when the ticket price is already $349), and run the shuttle for free. Then I bet a LOT more people will use the shuttle (knowing it's included), and traffic will be a lot lighter.

Everybody wins.

But this makes too much sense for Goldenvoice to actually do.

[euphonicfiend]

$5 is a small amount. Fuck that I am not using the shuttle and I am not driving, I am camping so traffic is a non issue for me. Why should I have to pay for the people who need shuttles? even if its only $5, I work hard and even though I make more than minimum wage - that's more than half of a persons hourly rate and in some states that is minimum wage. That poor guy at McDonalds had to work an hr more just to cover his extra $5 fee, "so everyone wins".. REALLY? This is really not a big deal. I had to buy a bundle last year, I sold my shuttle pass for cost. I met a girl a block away from my house at Starbucks, and gave her the pass and she gave me money. It was painless. If I wanted to be an ass, I could have raised the prices and made money. I had a ton of people interested in it. People who buy tickets from a 3rd party, or buy GA and then realize they are staying at a hotel. Jeez, there is always gonna be something that doesn't work for everyone. Why waste your energy?

[Archie Bunker]

$5 is a small amount. Fuck that I am not using the shuttle and I am not driving, I am camping so traffic is a non issue for me. Why should I have to pay for the people who need shuttles? even if its only $5, I work hard and even though I make more than minimum wage - that's more than half of a persons hourly rate and in some states that is minimum wage. That poor guy at McDonalds had to work an hr more just to cover his extra $5 fee, "so everyone wins".. REALLY? This is really not a big deal. I had to buy a bundle last year, I sold my shuttle pass for cost. I met a girl a block away from my house at Starbucks, and gave her the pass and she gave me money. It was painless. If I wanted to be an ass, I could have raised the prices and made money. I had a ton of people interested in it. People who buy tickets from a 3rd party, or buy GA and then realize they are staying at a hotel. Jeez, there is always gonna be something that doesn't work for everyone. Why waste your energy?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there were a lot more "force bundled" shuttle passes sold this year, so I believe people will have trouble selling them, especially anywhere near face.

LOL @ saying that an extra $5 is going to be a hardship for someone attending an expensive festival like Coachella.

Yeah, I'm sure that McDonald's guy you're talking about would much rather have to pay $50 extra for a shuttle pass he doesn't need than $5 plus getting free use of the shuttle if he feels like it.

[euphonicfiend]

How do you know "more" people had to buy a "forced bundled" shuttle pass? Its sold out.. Have you talked to the thousands attending? I'm sure the people who were "forced" don't give a fuck (they are happy to just be going to the festival) and will sell it or keep it. again not a big deal. And yes McDonalds guy does care, coachella payment plans - letting poor folk enjoy the festival with layaway. ANNNDD my McDonalds guy knows when to make a buck and will buy his bundle and re sell his shuttle pass for more and make $10-$25 back, cause he is an asshole who works at McDonalds.

[wonder_woo]

I was forced.

[mountmccabe]

re: Archie,

So what you'd like is for the average consumer to be paying more so that you, the late-purchaser, can pay less.

And you think that the average festival goer will want to use the shuttles when they realize that they're paying for a ride anyway. Except that the whole problem here is that YOU don't want to use the shuttles even though you've paid for a pass.


Two other points:

1. Neither of us know what Coachella's shuttle-related requirements are. Speculating that they are required to sell 1 shuttle pass for every 10 admissions and then further speculating that they'd be compliant if they sold NO shuttle passes is moronic.

2. Right now they know how many potential shuttle riders there will be and can thus plan how many shuttles they will need. Sure, at peak times (say, the end of the festival) the answer will be as many as possible but know how long those peak conditions will last (that is how many riders you will have) will be important to planning. With your proposed system they would have no way of knowing how many riders they may have and no reason to expect it to be even close to constant from day to day.