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Thread: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

  1. #61
    Coachella Junkie heart cooks brain's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    does anyone know if any of the guys commiting these mass murders had a CCW?
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    The only thing that can change this situation is for enough people to organize politically in favor of more gun regulation to the extent that the asymmetrical political advantage enjoyed by the NRA and its allies finally diminishes. In other words, it will take a period of national trauma on par with how bad prohibition was.
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    It's hard to argue with that.

  3. #63

    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by heart cooks brain View Post
    does anyone know if any of the guys commiting these mass murders had a CCW?
    most states only allow CC for handguns and most of these shootings aren't limited just to handguns, so I would assume no.

    Connecticut's policy:
    Open Carry?
    No (long guns)/Yes (handguns)
    May carry openly with permit/license.
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    Also, is there a single rational argument for owning a handgun? Can anyone provide me with one?
    Rattlesnakes.
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    A real man catches a rattler by the tail and then uses a shovel to cut its head off. Then skins the snake to make a killer belt.
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  6. #66
    Chest Rockwell Gribbz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Yeah, John. Get with it.


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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    And something I've long thought would be common sense legislation: why don't we require every single weapon to be registered to its user? Then if the weapon changes hands, it would have to be registered by the new user. We do this with cars and nobody bats an eye, and that process provides some level of accountability. If your weapon is stolen or lost, you must immediately report it. If you don't and it's used in a criminal act, you are held liable as an accessory for providing a weapon to a criminal.
    It would create a massive bureaucracy that would be more difficult to maintain and enforce than with car registration.

    Guns are a lot smaller than cars and they aren't only used on roadways. I don't need to have registration for my antique car on blocks in my backyard* or the one I only use on my property around the farm*. Would I need to register the antique guns* in a display case on my wall? They, like the car on blocks could be made to work if cleaned and serviced well.

    I cannot even imagine the process of forcing every gun to be registered. It's one thing to do newly bought guns but there are so many guns out there already you wouldn't see any tangible effect for a long, long time.

    People steal cars to use in crimes and then abandon them, or is that just in fiction? As the supply of unregistered guns stashed away dried up and when the black market could not provide we'd see this happen with guns. It'd be a little more difficult... though since there would be databases of who has guns and where they live it could certainly happen.


    I really don't know what to think. I am not sure I am against total gun registration but it would certainly not be easy, cheap or perfectly effective at identifying guilty parties other than newly created classes of guilty parties.




    * I do not actually own such items but I know people who do.
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  8. #68
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by nathanfairchild View Post
    The thing is, most gun owners are very responsible. The .1% that do shit like this shouldn't lead to the 99.9% of responsible owners getting penalized.
    The same thing could be said of thermonuclear devices.

  9. #69

    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    don't we already have a cut of date WRT to gun sales and bans? I don't see why we couldn't have the same policies when it comes to registration.
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    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by VigoTheCarpathian View Post
    Tom, "repeal the second amendment" is a big statement. elaborate please..
    You pass another amendment repealing the target amendment. 21 repealed 18. 28 can repeal 2. Yes I know this is a pipe dream. That doesn't make it any less the correct answer.

    I am not saying "do away with all guns". I am saying do away with treating gun ownership a right. If driving a car is a privilege then so should gun use, possession, and ownership be. WHEN DRIVING A CAR IS A CRIME ONLY CRIMINALS WILL DRIVE CARS.
    Last edited by TomAz; 12-14-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  11. #71
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    The only thing that can change this situation is for enough people to organize politically in favor of more gun regulation to the extent that the asymmetrical political advantage enjoyed by the NRA and its allies finally diminishes. In other words, it will take a period of national trauma on par with how bad prohibition was.
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    It would create a massive bureaucracy that would be more difficult to maintain and enforce than with car registration.
    Again, difficulty should not be an excuse to not do something.

    I don't need to have registration for my antique car on blocks in my backyard* or the one I only use on my property around the farm*. Would I need to register the antique guns* in a display case on my wall? They, like the car on blocks could be made to work if cleaned and serviced well.
    First, the car is a different thing because its uses are multivaried. Guns are used to kill things, or to prepare to kill things.

    As far as the antiques though, the UK's anti-gun legislation from 1997 covered that well. If it was an antique, even if it could use modern ammunition, then it was exempt from the law. Pre-1917 make. After that, then sorry. You have a nice family heirloom, but that family heirloom is designed to inflict serious harm and sometimes sacrifices should be made.

    I cannot even imagine the process of forcing every gun to be registered. It's one thing to do newly bought guns but there are so many guns out there already you wouldn't see any tangible effect for a long, long time.
    I can. You give a grace period of a year where people can register their weaponry for free. If they can prove long and safe ownership of a weapon, maybe they can grandfather in more weapons than would otherwise be allowed. After that, if you are caught with an unregistered weapon, it's a serious crime. I'm not in favor of more people in prison, but this is a situation where i would support tough punishment.

    People steal cars to use in crimes and then abandon them, or is that just in fiction? As the supply of unregistered guns stashed away dried up and when the black market could not provide we'd see this happen with guns. It'd be a little more difficult... though since there would be databases of who has guns and where they live it could certainly happen.
    But, as with my hypothetical, if your car is stolen you report it. Sure, maybe we don't know where the gun is or who stole it, but the police are now aware that a specific firearm is out there with someone who took it. If they use it, then that's a tragedy. If they try to sell it to someone else, then the registration system either picks it up during that transaction or it gets discovered at a point when it is used. One easy way to do that would be to have people place their gun registration number on a file when they use it at a shooting range, or register their number when they sign up for a hunting license. If a stolen gun shows up there, voila. And if someone is caught using an unregistered or stolen gun, obviously that would be a crime.

    The ease of implementing such a system should not be the only reason for doing something.
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    You pass another amendment repealing the target amendment. 21 repealed 18. 28 can repeal 2. Yes I know this is a pipe dream. That doesn't make it any less the correct answer.

    I am not saying "do away with all guns". I am saying do away with treating gun ownership a right. If driving a car is a privilege then so should gun use, possession, and ownership be. WHEN DRIVING A CAR IS A CRIME ONLY CRIMINALS WILL DRIVE CARS.
    Ok, 2nd amendment reads:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    With what language would you amend this law so to make guns a privilege and not a right, while at the same time guaranteeing their legality? Bryan? Message Board?

  14. #74
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Why do we need to guarantee their legality? derp. There's no constitutional amendment guaranteeing the legality of automobiles.

  15. #75
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by VigoTheCarpathian View Post
    Ok, 2nd amendment reads:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    With what language would you amend this law so to make guns a privilege and not a right, while at the same time guaranteeing their legality? Bryan? Message Board?
    I'd do away with it. We don't need a militia, seeing as how the founding fathers envisioned us keeping a people's militia rather than a standing army. And the argument that individual gun ownership protects against tyranny is crap: do you think that any of the people who believe that would be able to fight against the largest, most well-equipped army in the world if they actually felt that they were going to resort to systematic, militaristic tyranny against the populace?

    Gun ownership, like ownership of every other non-essential item in the world, should be a privilege and not a right.
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    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    Again, difficulty should not be an excuse to not do something.
    Bryan you are damaging the cause with your impeccable logic and your split infinitives.

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    old school ods..'s Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    I'd do away with it. We don't need a militia, seeing as how the founding fathers envisioned us keeping a people's militia rather than a standing army.
    This times 1 million

  18. #78
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    That's why I hate the stupid 2nd amendment argument. If even the most seasoned Constitutional scholars don't agree on its meaning or interpretation, why should this thing be the end-all be-all for our conversations? Not to mention the fact that, as some have acknowledged around here, it was drafted for a very different world, and most of the founding fathers envisioned a constitution that was re-drafted every few years or so.

    These conversations make me so dejected that I wish I could just move somewhere where people don't constantly push for the right to have such a deadly object. There have to be other countries where more people share my views on weapons and where this sort of shit doesn't happen twice in a week.
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  19. #79
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Whether or not they would, owning the guns would give the people the option to.

  20. #80
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    Again, difficulty should not be an excuse to not do something.
    Agreed. But the goal is not registering all guns, the goal is cutting down on violence and keeping people safe. So difficulties in implementation and limitations thereof are relevant to the conversation. Resources could be thrown into registering guns and tracking them and enforcing this if those resources could, possibly, be better applied.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    First, the car is a different thing because its uses are multivaried. Guns are used to kill things, or to prepare to kill things.
    I have fired a lot of guns a lot of times. Only a small fraction of those shots have been in an attempt to kill anything (an animal). In only one instance did I actually kill something (a quail) and I ate it that evening.

    But that's not what I was talking about, really. You brought up car registration as a reference point. I will touch on more of what I meant later in this response.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    I can. You give a grace period of a year where people can register their weaponry for free. If they can prove long and safe ownership of a weapon, maybe they can grandfather in more weapons than would otherwise be allowed. After that, if you are caught with an unregistered weapon, it's a serious crime. I'm not in favor of more people in prison, but this is a situation where i would support tough punishment.
    A year seems optimistic; there are more (privately held) guns in the U.S. than people. But, again, you could throw a whole lot of money at processing all of this, distributing forms, getting the word out, etc. The question is what do we get out of this outlay.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    But, as with my hypothetical, if your car is stolen you report it. Sure, maybe we don't know where the gun is or who stole it, but the police are now aware that a specific firearm is out there with someone who took it.
    Yeah, but the stolen car drives on public roads in front of cameras and cops and under helicopters. One could walk around the streets holding several stolen (or legal) guns and no one would know. A stolen gun could be stashed any number of places in a car not to mention a house.

    You need something like a garage to hide a stolen car whereas a jacket would work to hide a gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    If they use it, then that's a tragedy. If they try to sell it to someone else, then the registration system either picks it up during that transaction or it gets discovered at a point when it is used. One easy way to do that would be to have people place their gun registration number on a file when they use it at a shooting range, or register their number when they sign up for a hunting license. If a stolen gun shows up there, voila. And if someone is caught using an unregistered or stolen gun, obviously that would be a crime.
    But this would catch people trying to abide by the laws, people doing reasonable things. If someone knows their gun is stolen they aren't going to file the change of title when they sell it; if they don't know the gun is stolen they're not a guilty party... other than due to these new laws. And going to a shooting range is a very good thing; more gun owners should do so more often to become and remain familiar with the safe operation of their weapon.

    It'd be like someone stealing a car and then going to get the emissions checked right off; it's not going to happen. But, yes, this is one thing that strict gun registration laws would do, cut down on private transactions to include grey and black market goods.


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    If they use it, then that's a tragedy.
    Yeah, that's the thing. A tragedy that gun registration did nothing to stop. And now I'm going to be charged with accessory because someone stole my gun to use in a crime because they saw my name and address on a list of gun owners?

    Also, are car owners charged with accessory if their car is stolen and used in a crime?


    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    The ease of implementing such a system should not be the only reason for doing something.
    The side effects of gun registration may be convincing some current and potential gun owners that ownership isn't worthwhile, that there are too many hassles and it's all too expensive. And there are a lot of ways you can get charged with some sort of violation, misdemeanor, crime, whatever if you're not real careful. And some folks would get some real nice gun safes to hold their weapons (which would be a good thing) so they don't get charged with accessory (but a bad reason).

    And meanwhile we transition from gun violence being committed with legal guns to illegal guns but that's just a definition. Occasionally the police find a basement full of thousands of guns that have been slowly doled out for use in various crimes and thrown away but there always seem to be more unregistered guns around. Sure, there'd be some problems for those that wish to use guns to commit crimes but it'd be minor for a long, long time.

    Full gun registration laws are not common sense because it is not clear how they stop any class of lawbreakers other than the ones created by the laws themselves. Resources put into gun registration and enforcement of gun registration could be put to better use combating root causes, educating the public, making counseling more available, etc. Helping people - including gun owners - is a better way to go rather than marginalizing them further.
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  21. #81
    old school sonnyboy11's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    The Onion pretty well nailed my feelings for me on today's tragedy

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuc...adline:default
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence


  23. #83
    old school sonnyboy11's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Steve Winwood| Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds| Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds| Echo and the Bunnymen| Echo and the Bunnymen| Paul McCartney| Foxygen| FYF Fest| NIN/Soundgarden| Elvis Costello| Swans| Buzzcocks| King Crimson| Elton John| Kasabian| Massive Attack| Massive Attack| Slowdive| Tame Impala| DFA 1979| Fleetwood Mac| A Winged Victory for the Sullen

  24. #84
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    The fuckwad defense blaming the victims for not being armed calls for those dicks to put their money where their mouths are. If you want armed security everywhere, then a violence protection tax should be put on all weapons and ammunition. That tax would go to the hiring of armed guards everywhere. The guards will be trained and educated through this tax as well. The salaries and requirements should be as high as imaginable to only attract the best and the sane. The amount of tax is whatever will pay for this. If it's $1000 a gun, fuck you, pay. The tax should also cover any damages and compensations to the victims and communities.

  25. #85
    old school buddy's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    There's people blaming the victims for not being armed? That's more than insane.

  26. #86
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    When someone says these tragedies could have been minimized or avoided if someone in the theater or a teacher had been armed, they are blaming those who aren't armed for the carnage. They want a society where everyone lives in mutual destruction mode. If that's what they want, they need to pay for it.

  27. #87
    old school buddy's Avatar
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    There's no arguing with idiots like that, so it's better off not to, because they won't listen to reason.

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  29. #89
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    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    I wish you luck

  30. #90

    Default Re: In which we discuss: Guns, Second Amendment, Weaponry, and Violence

    Quote Originally Posted by McDunnough View Post
    Just noticed this news item. A bit uncanny how this happened about twelve hours before the tragedy in Connecticut:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910
    This coupled with the Connecticut shooting (which took place about 5 minutes away from where my parents just moved, btw) should prove to everybody that we need gun control. A Chinese man stabs 22 kids, none die. If he a had a gun they all die, plus more. Can knives be dangerous? Yes, but you can't go on a stabbing spree and kill 50 people with a knife. People bring up Tim McVeigh. That happened in this country, what...once? Shootings happen every day, and big shootings like this are happening more frequently.

    I don't favor banning guns. People should have the right to own guns in their homes and protect their property. But there's no reason anyone needs an assault rifle. There's no reason anyone needs more than one or two guns. We ban drugs because they lead to violence...guns lead to...what? Peace? I keep hearing the solution is for responsible peaceful gun owners to stop gun violence. When has this happened? When has a gun lover pulled out his gun and stopped a mass shooting? Besides, the solution isn't to have people shoot other people. The solution is to stop the initial shooting, you can't shoot someone without a gun.
    Last edited by Bons222000; 12-14-2012 at 08:48 PM.

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