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Thread: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

  1. #61

    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by JebusLives View Post
    Your apathy is a real breath of fresh, unique air, jackstraw. People should definitely not complain about stuff until things get 3rd world bad.
    Really? Really?

  2. #62
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    But seriously, Congress really needs to create some sort of bill clarifying how the fuck we should treat corporations, because assuming that they're people with the full panoply of litigation rights that entails is just bizarre (at least to me.)

    Yeah, these kids are not going to help get that done, most likely, but dammit if the SCOTUS didn't get that decision completely wrong.
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  3. #63
    Coachella Junkie MissingPerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    The corporations-as-people thing just seems to me like one of the weirdest ideas ever to take root.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    if they weren't they couldn't sue or be sued. it's to give them the same legal rights as everyone else.
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  5. #65
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    The problem is that they are NOT treated as people. You can fine a corporation but the whole point of it existing is the fact that you're only doing small (or sometimes large) harm to everyone involved in that corporation, instead of the small number of people responsible for the decisions that caused the harm. I get that a company on a grand scale can do more damage than you can reasonably expect one individual to cover, but you to do something to put more fear into the people responsible for guiding the ship. Bryan's right, you have to make more distinctions between what actions of a company are the personal responsibility of individuals rather than the entity.

    That'll strip them of some of their corporationness, make them less corporationey anat.

    but that still doesn't really answer to the "concerns" of these kids on their neato wall st. slumber party. They're just disillusioned over the fact that the american dream that their parents raised them under is a lot harder then they thought it was going to be. Findin' out the rent is too damn high.
    Last edited by jackstraw94086; 10-03-2011 at 06:31 PM.

  6. #66
    The Fro PassiveTheory's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    I think the reason that they've decided to protest Wall St. instead of Congress is under the mislead line of thought that since politicians are bought you need to take some kind of mass instigating action against something that symbolizes all corporations (or a location where some corporate entities tangibly mingle in some way or another) that they'd be killing two birds with one stone.

    Planning a two-fold attack on both Wall St. and Congress would have been more symbolic (and possibly more effective, but I have my doubts) because of what jackstraw has said, among other things. This is almost akin to trying to cut the heads off of a hydra. You can't fucking try to wipe out something that is as nuanced like the current plight of the country by just tackling the problem in one spot at a time.
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  7. #67
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    That's exactly the problem with treating a corporation as a "person" when the very term implies they are a grouping of individuals. A corporation could do nothing without the individual constituents, and the fact that the current state of law seems to blindly ignore this is confounding.
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  8. #68
    Coachella Junkie MissingPerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    One thing worth throwing out there is that I can tell you pretty much for sure that if they protested outside Congress it would get zero useful international coverage. People are supposed to protest outside Congress because it's Congress. The sun will rise, the seas will churn, and somebody will be yelling about something outside of fucking Congress.

    Protesting on Wall Street is something of a novelty, and this is receiving at least some coverage purely on that basis. It's a shame these folks haven't got a more pointed, unified message, but that doesn't mean they're not getting a blunter, hazier one across.
    Last edited by MissingPerson; 10-03-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  9. #69
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    I just think it's kind of sad that us americans have to be seen as only complaining about the money. And hopefully the international press isn't drawing any of the moronic analogies to middle east protests that some folks here are fantasizing about.

    If these protests were designed with an intention to catch international attention then that would truly be pathetic.

  10. #70
    Coachella Junkie MissingPerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    They're more often compared to the Greek and Spanish austerity protests, but generally presented as their own thing.

    It's worth remembering, in Ireland at least, to most folks' mind, the catalyst that heralded the onset of our economic woes was the Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac crisis. The protest in Wall Street is not seen as just a bit of economic hissyfitting by a few Williamsburgers with time to kill, because everyone everywhere is now very painfully aware of how much of an effect a decision made on Wall Street can have in their own neighbourhood.

    I'm 26. I was born during a severe depression, grew up during the recovery, lived through the biggest boom the country's ever known, and saw it all collapse in on itself pretty much overnight. I know as well as anybody else of my vintage that money and wealth aren't just abstract concepts, they are very real factors in the quality of life and environment you can have for yourself or offer your family.

    There's no comparison between, for instance, facing down tanks and water cannons in Cairo and taking a bit of verbal abuse from a cop in New York, but that doesn't make the latter automatically meaningless. Protests about money aren't necessarily trivial, because we don't live in a society where money is trivial.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by MissingPerson View Post
    They're more often compared to the Greek and Spanish austerity protests, but generally presented as their own thing.

    It's worth remembering, in Ireland at least, to most folks' mind, the catalyst that heralded the onset of our economic woes was the Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac crisis. The protest in Wall Street is not seen as just a bit of economic hissyfitting by a few Williamsburgers with time to kill, because everyone everywhere is now very painfully aware of how much of an effect a decision made on Wall Street can have in their own neighbourhood.

    I'm 26. I was born during a severe depression, grew up during the recovery, lived through the biggest boom the country's ever known, and saw it all collapse in on itself pretty much overnight. I know as well as anybody else of my vintage that money and wealth aren't just abstract concepts, they are very real factors in the quality of life and environment you can have for yourself or offer your family.

    There's no comparison between, for instance, facing down tanks and water cannons in Cairo and taking a bit of verbal abuse from a cop in New York, but that doesn't make the latter automatically meaningless. Protests about money aren't necessarily trivial, because we don't live in a society where money is trivial.
    i think the part that's trivial is that these wall st. protesters are likening their protest to protests in libya and other middle eastern countries that are fighting for their freedom. people in libya have been slaughtered for protesting, meanwhile some hipsters get pepper sprayed and want the world to see their "struggle."
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  12. #72
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Of course a few protestors are going to make those sorts of stupid comparisons. It doesn't mean that by and large the entire movement is. It means that certain media outlets are going to capitalize on these silly comparisons as a way to undercut many of the other things being (symbolically) protested.

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  13. #73
    Coachella Junkie MissingPerson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by nathanfairchild View Post
    i think the part that's trivial is that these wall st. protesters are likening their protest to protests in libya and other middle eastern countries that are fighting for their freedom. people in libya have been slaughtered for protesting, meanwhile some hipsters get pepper sprayed and want the world to see their "struggle."
    It's easy to put this stuff in its place from a distance, but in close-up, it's really easy to lose perspective. Facing down a line of uniformed cops with state-appointed power over you - even good cops with good intentions and cool heads - is a really charged experience that can bring out the idiot in the very best of us. It's scary and exhilarating, and it gets really easy to believe that you're going to be the one to wave the flag from the battlements and punch the Queen off her horse before riding one of the hostages off into the sunset.

    It's a silly comparison to make in the cold light of day, but an understandable one to make from the pavement, where scuffles look amplified, injuries look magnified, and rumours of all kinds of nefarious cop wrongdoing can travel like wildfire. Dumb comparisons are not going to endear the protesters to anybody, sure, but I don't think a loss of perspective as a result of natural tunnel vision is a valid reason to dismiss the movement - or whatever you might call it - entirely.

  14. #74
    Member ramblinon's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw94086 View Post
    The problem is that they are NOT treated as people. You can fine a corporation but the whole point of it existing is the fact that you're only doing small (or sometimes large) harm to everyone involved in that corporation, instead of the small number of people responsible for the decisions that caused the harm. I get that a company on a grand scale can do more damage than you can reasonably expect one individual to cover, but you to do something to put more fear into the people responsible for guiding the ship. Bryan's right, you have to make more distinctions between what actions of a company are the personal responsibility of individuals rather than the entity.

    That'll strip them of some of their corporationness, make them less corporationey anat.

    but that still doesn't really answer to the "concerns" of these kids on their neato wall st. slumber party. They're just disillusioned over the fact that the american dream that their parents raised them under is a lot harder then they thought it was going to be. Findin' out the rent is too damn high.
    Totally agree with most everything you've said before, but this HAS been addressed....by Sarbanes-Oxley. It made corporate officers (CEOs, CFOs, et al) have to sign off on their financial statements, with material misstatements punishable with prison. And it's worked.

    The problem is the protesters don't know a goddamned thing about what they're protesting. Greed will never end...it is as part of the evolutionary progression as the desire to fuck. What these hipsters and hippies don't get is that the problem that they could potentially (read: not likely, but more possible) fix is in Washington.

    But you can't fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is, right? Outside of a myriad of issues, the '08 meltdown would not have happened if it weren't for two major occurrences: 1) the repeal of Glass-Steagall, which enabled "Too Big To Fail", and 2) the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which deregulated and allowed the TBTF banks to completely obfuscate all those crazy derivatives that nearly led to a global meltdown clusterfuck. Both bipartisan by Congressional votes, both signed by Clinton. Look them up.

    But hey, let's get angry at rich people because Ed Schultz and random bloggers told us to. We can feel like we made a difference too! Woo!!

    What a fucking joke. It's too bad that any semblance of resistance has to come from such a group of willfully ignorant lemmings.

    /rant
    Last edited by ramblinon; 10-03-2011 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #75
    Member biggfoot17's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Protesting Wall St is a symbolic gesture. While the people of this nation carry the risk of Wall St, those who work there are able to share in the profit without facing any of the risk/consequences when their actions fail. Yes, there are plenty of people there who have no idea what the intention of all this is, and the real change is not going to happen there, but the whole point is to bring accountability upon those who helped to bring this economy to where it is today.

    And anybody who compares these protests to what's going on in the middle east is an idiot. Get real.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    I agree with most of you that say that the occupy movement needs to have set goals and demands because this is what is hurting the movement. It's starting to spread to fast without clear intentions that are just going to undermine the movement. But this is what's hard about these protests because it deals with structures that are pretty fucking complex. Its easier to understand and justify civil rights protests or protests for some sort of democracy.The average joe might not know what they are protesting in the Occupy protest's but it doesn't take a genius to realize something isnt right. And its their right to protest for change so that eventually someone that knows what the fuck is going on can do something about it. The idea that people are protesting because life is harder then they thought would be is pretty stupid. Its not really about jobs. Its about the de-regulation of corporations in this country and their power over the politicians that are supposed to regulate them (So many tangents to go off here. Big money has changed and influenced the legislative process for so long and will probably never end) The complete disregard of some corporate CEO's has helped drive this nation in a complete shitty path. I would recommend anybody to watch Inside Job. The documentary probably still only scratches the surface but it still shows the clear picture of how a hand full of corporation have lead us to where we are now.
    There has to be line drawn somewhere. Capitalism should never be deeply ingrained in democracy. I can go on a long rant of why i hate capitalism, i do support capitalism, but all i got to say on thr topic is that capitalism is going to go to shit when there is no longer anyone left to be taken advantage of.

    And thanks M sparks for posting some good videos. This thread was kind of an emotional response to seeing what was happening on the livestream and then switching to CNN where the shows description was "broadcasting breaking news as it happens." They were showing the weather while 700 people were being arresting in mere hours.

  17. #77
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by ramblinon View Post
    Totally agree with most everything you've said before, but this HAS been addressed....by Sarbanes-Oxley. It made corporate officers (CEOs, CFOs, et al) have to sign off on their financial statements, with material misstatements punishable with prison. And it's worked.
    I was assisting SOX audits on my company back in 03 and 04, and they were mostly a joke. Plus at that same job the company was charged with backdating stock options, the CEO bought his way out of the indictment and the CFO was convicted and just fined.

    I wouldn't say that sox has entirely solved corporate accountability. It only makes them accountable for financial statements and business process documentation but it lots of immoral practices are still not covered.

  18. #78
    old school JebusLives's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    You know, a few years ago we had reporters going down to make fun of the clueless teabaggers and their silly ideas. Now they have congress by its balls.

    I'm glad to see hipsters finally standing for something, ultimately effective or not. Apathy accomplishes nothing.
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  19. #79
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by JebusLives View Post
    You know, a few years ago we had reporters going down to make fun of the clueless teabaggers and their silly ideas. Now they have congress by its balls.

    I'm glad to see hipsters finally standing for something, ultimately effective or not. Apathy accomplishes nothing.
    That you could draw that analogy is astounding.

    Does it completely escape you how the tactics of the tea party and these kids differ? What the fuck have we been saying here?

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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Well, seems like everthing is going to plan for TPTB ....protests,mass protest next??rioting?? and then martial law??

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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    BTW,
    Are these people protesting the Wall St. Banksters the ones helping to fight the drug wars too, the cats out the bag dudes ? You Wall St. Bankers & C.I.A are the biggest drug runners on the planet. How are your poppy's doing in Afghanistan, you know the poppy fields that our troops are sacrificing their lives and limbs to protect, so you can smuggle your poison all over the world and destroy the family unit even more,till its non-existant!

  22. #82
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Remedial English.

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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Remedial English.
    Well then sharpen up your reading comprehension skillz MR. GUEDITA.

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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    you're insufferable
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    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    poppy's

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  26. #86
    old school Stickjohn's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Bernanke speaking to Joint Congressional Economic Committee
    Mr. Bernanke was also asked about recent protests in New York and other cities against Wall Street and corporate greed. He signaled some sympathy for the demonstrators, saying people are blaming "with some justification the problems in the financial sector for getting us into this mess."

    "At some level, I can't blame them," he said, pointing to an unemployment rate that remains above 9.0%.

    Americans are "dissatisfied with the policy response here in Washington," Mr. Bernanke told lawmakers.

  27. #87
    Coachella Junkie jackstraw94086's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    ME NO WANT SYMPATHY


  28. #88

    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw94086 View Post
    That you could draw that analogy is astounding.
    grass. roots.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw94086 View Post
    Does it completely escape you how the tactics of the tea party and these kids differ? What the fuck have we been saying here?
    Yeah those kids down there need to tie some sort of symbol to their hats and carry more signs with the image of hitler on them =/
    Quote Originally Posted by bug on your lip View Post
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    Coachella Junkie nathanfairchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starraven View Post
    Yeah those kids down there need to tie some sort of symbol to their hats and carry more signs with the image of hitler on them =/
    they're not terribly different. you just don't agree with one so you feel the need to make one look more ridiculous.
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    Default Re: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (U.S Protests)

    This occupy wallstreet momement may grow into a "far left" platform for some batshit hipster candidate.. but that's pretty unlikely. I'm just agreeing that it has as much potential as those grannies on the side of the road once did.
    Quote Originally Posted by bug on your lip View Post
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