Oslo bombing and Utoya massacre, Norway.

[ramblinon]

And yet he killed a bunch of non-Muslim, non-immigrant kids....?

[Hannahrain]

No, it clearly is an extension of them:



He is quite simply a byproduct of what these right wing anti-Muslim douchebags have manifested itself into.

His views of Muslims, multiculturalism, Islam, immigration, and leftists resonate with a large section of not just Europe but also in America as well. Let's not deny that there isn't a problem with the rampant hate directed towards Muslims and those they feel in the Left that supposedly appease Islam and Muslims. As a Muslim myself living in the U.S. who has done the very same fucking thing these bigots whine about (integrating and adopting Western culture, after I am on a Coachella board talking about music 99% of the time) I feel they will never accept me no matter what, and the stuff I read from Europeans that refer to us as subhuman and want us dead make me feel that no matter how much I try to integrate I will never be accepted because I'm just another Muslim trying to take over Europe supposedly :

I didn't mean he didn't maintain right-wing beliefs. He obviously did. But holding a group at large accountable because one person acted out terrible shit in their name only serves to make the guy into a hero for his cause. He's not a conservative conduit, he's a fucking lunatic who acted out his own aggression on people who believe differently. It's not the right wing's fault he killed a bunch of people any more than it'd be the left wing's fault if you or I decided to go shoot everybody who skewed too far to the right for our tastes. He is accountable for this. They are not collectively accountable for this.

[Electrotek]

And yet he killed a bunch of non-Muslim, non-immigrant kids....?

Some of the victims were immigrants, but yeah to the anti-Islamic "counter-jihadis" they view Leftists as "appeasers of Islam and dhimmitude". Just go on Pamela Geller's web site and see what these retards espouse on a regular basis

Anyone still surprised this would happen even though this was bound to occur due to the environment the continent put itself into?

[Electrotek]

I didn't mean he didn't maintain right-wing beliefs. He obviously did. But holding a group at large accountable because one person acted out terrible shit in their name only serves to make the guy into a hero for his cause. He's not a conservative conduit, he's a fucking lunatic who acted out his own aggression on people who believe differently. It's not the right wing's fault he killed a bunch of people any more than it'd be the left wing's fault if you or I decided to go shoot everybody who skewed too far to the right for our tastes. He is accountable for this. They are not collectively accountable for this.

Funny how it doesn't apply to normal Muslims who have nothing to do with the actions of extremists, huh?

Do you ever go on the sites he goes to? You know the same delusional assclowns who want to deny Muslims in the U.S. their religious freedom (i.e. Tea Party, majority of the GOP, Hermain Cain, the retards opposing the Park51 Community Center)? Ever heard of the English Defence League and the crap they often do on a regular basis? Or Vlaams Belang? The Kohn League? The same group of dipshits who also deny the Bosnian Genocide and make the Serbs out to be victims in the Balkans even though they are the ones that started the wars while advocating a forced "Reconquista" of Anatolia, aka modern-day Turkey to repopulate it with Christians?

Make no mistake, this guy's hatred, ideas, and warped worldview does resonate with a lot of people in Europe and in the U.S. when it comes to the right wing. They allowed this culture of hatred and intolerance to grow unopposed and now the lives of innocents were slaughtered because of this byproduct of anti-Muslim and right-wing intolerance.

And last I checked, the Left does not in any way condone or make excuses for the acts of far-leftist retards. The Right, on the other hand, is trying so hard to make excuses and downplay his actions as those of a "loner", but the more information that is coming out the more these same assholes who called for wiping out Muslims on news sites will be forced to take a good look in the mirror and see how they are not much different from the monster that we see in Norway right now.

[ramblinon]

It seems that you're not making the distinction between "full of misplaced anger" and "psychotic".

[Electrotek]

It seems that you're not making the distinction between "full of misplaced anger" and "psychotic".

Okay.

Is this an example of it being "full of misplaced anger"? Wanting Muslims forcibly deported from Europe (including those that are indigenous like the Bosnians, Lipka Tatars in Poland, Bulgarian Turks, ethnic Greek Muslims) is "misplaced anger" now? Are you old enough to remember the horror and massacres that happened in Bosnia? It didn't happened 60-70 years ago, it happened 20 years ago. People need to see what happens when you leave blind hatred of ethnic and religious groups unabated.

And the impulsive reaction of violence is a unique trait of the far-right, let's not kid ourselves here.

[Hannahrain]

Funny how it doesn't apply to normal Muslims who have nothing to do with the actions of extremists, huh?

You're making a hell of an assumption about me here and I'd really like to see you back it up before you consider it relevant to our conversation.

Do you ever go on the sites he goes to? You know the same delusional assclowns who want to deny Muslims in the U.S. their religious freedom (i.e. Tea Party, majority of the GOP, Hermain Cain, the retards opposing the Park51 Community Center)? Ever heard of the English Defence League and the crap they often do on a regular basis? Or Vlaams Belang? The Kohn League? The same group of dipshits who also deny the Bosnian Genocide and make the Serbs out to be victims in the Balkans even though they are the ones that started the wars while advocating a forced "Reconquista" of Anatolia, aka modern-day Turkey to repopulate it with Christians?

Make no mistake, this guy's hatred, ideas, and warped worldview does resonate with a lot of people in Europe and in the U.S. when it comes to the right wing. They allowed this culture of hatred and intolerance to grow unopposed and now the lives of innocents were slaughtered because of this byproduct of anti-Muslim and right-wing intolerance.

"A lot of people" is not the same as the entire right wing. I was only responding to your quote here:

Anyone see how desperate right wingers are trying to deflect any connection with the guy?

Which made no distinction between the right wing in general and individual groups which condone violence and intolerance. I have no doubt that there's rampant hatred and idiocy prevalent in Europe and the US and that members of hate groups seek to propel others toward extremism. The right wing as a whole is not an embodiment of that nor a massive alliance of unadulterated evil straight out of your favorite Marvel volume.

[Electrotek]

You're making a hell of an assumption about me here and I'd really like to see you back it up before you consider it relevant to our conversation.

It was a general statement, nothing to do with you.

"A lot of people" is not the same as the entire right wing. I was only responding to your quote here:



Which made no distinction between the right wing in general and individual groups which condone violence and intolerance. I have no doubt that there's rampant hatred and idiocy prevalent in Europe and the US and that members of hate groups seek to propel others toward extremism. The right wing as a whole is not an embodiment of that nor a massive alliance of unadulterated evil straight out of your favorite Marvel volume.

But you have to admit, the right-wing have done a rather piss-poor job of policing their own adherents. Ideas that were once thought to be far-right have now gained mainstream acceptance. When you have a dumbass like Tom Tancredo calling for nuking two of Islam's holiest cities 4 years ago while running for the Republican nomination, and very few within his own party rebuke him for it, I think it is necessary to point out how extremist ideas are tolerated and fostered in certain circles of the right. I'm glad he was far from winning out the nomination but that was mostly due to other factors that would be best left for another topic.

Where do you draw the line there?

[Hannahrain]

I'd draw it pretty crisply between people who think it's okay to shoot up an island full of teenagers and people who don't.

[MissingPerson]

As wholly condemnable as I often find right-wingers, it's not really fair to look at this guy as an extension of them. This isn't someone taking standard right-wing beliefs just a little too far. This is one violent lunatic acting on his own.

That's true. As has been rightly noted in a few corners though, if he was a Muslim dude, you'd hear plenty about the communities he came from and his "links" to other organisations and radical Imams and ideologies and blah blah blah. He's white and right-wingish though, so he's just a mass murderer.

[Hannahrain]

I'm not going to deny that by any means. I'm just trying to make a distinction between blaming extremism (in any form and through any group) and blaming the entirety.

[ramblinon]

Okay.

Is this an example of it being "full of misplaced anger"? Wanting Muslims forcibly deported from Europe (including those that are indigenous like the Bosnians, Lipka Tatars in Poland, Bulgarian Turks, ethnic Greek Muslims) is "misplaced anger" now? Are you old enough to remember the horror and massacres that happened in Bosnia? It didn't happened 60-70 years ago, it happened 20 years ago. People need to see what happens when you leave blind hatred of ethnic and religious groups unabated.

And the impulsive reaction of violence is a unique trait of the far-right, let's not kid ourselves here.

You talk as if today's Islam doesn't have pockets of craziness that would be happy with an elimination of Western society.

To speak of the ills of right-wingers without at least acknowledging that "your side" doesn't have it's share of crazies is very intellectually disingenuous. What about what happened nearly a decade ago? Even closer in time than Bosnia.

[Electrotek]

You talk as if today's Islam doesn't have pockets of craziness that would be happy with an elimination of Western society.

Yeah you're right...considering that I have a family member that was nearly killed in the London bombings 6 years ago by fellow Muslims, I'm totally unaware of the craziness amongst Muslims.

Plenty of Muslims have been killed by other Muslims since they see us (you're forgetting that I am immersed in Western culture, the fact that 99% of my posts on here are music related should be proof to you on that) as treacherous to them. Go look at how many Shi'ites have been butchered by Sunni fanatics, or the Turks killed 8 years ago in Istanbul, or the Jordanians who were slaughtered by their own 6 years ago?

To speak of the ills of right-wingers without at least acknowledging that "your side" doesn't have it's share of crazies is very intellectually disingenuous. What about what happened nearly a decade ago? Even closer in time than Bosnia.

What makes you think I don't acknowledge the fact that there are extremist shitheads within the Muslim world? I'm from Pakistan originally, I was aghast and horrified when Salman Taseer, a politician with the PPP who made it his passion to get the bullshit blasphemy law removed and defended a Christian woman falsely accused of it, was brutally murdered by someone who was part of his security guard, not to mention the disgust I held when many Pakistanis called this asshole a hero and was refused a funeral. I despise what my country of birth has become with the advent of right-wing religious extremists who are so bigoted with their worldview that nothing can change them, which is why I am well integrated. You won't ever see wanting to go back to Pakistan, but then there are anti-Muslim douchebags who can't differentiate between normal Muslims like me who simply want to live on with life and extremist assholes who live off the fat of the land who still think I don't belong here.

Oh, nice attempt at downplaying the worst atrocities in Europe since the Holocaust there. Go talk to some survivors and refugees of the Bosnian conflict (not all are Muslim, if that's your concern, since Croats were also targeted too) and see how it still affects them to this day. If you don't think the ethnic cleansing and massacres of Bosnians helped pave the way for Islamic extremism then I don't know what else to say to you.

[Hannahrain]

In somewhat unexpected news, turns out the guy was pretty alright with Judaism. Each murderer truly is a unique and singular snowflake.

[Electrotek]

In somewhat unexpected news, turns out the guy was pretty alright with Judaism. Each murderer truly is a unique and singular snowflake.

Not really unexpected when one sees how the far-right seem to have a hard on for Israel in Europe.

The guy cites Geert Wilders as his inspiration for his views for crying out loud.

The comments though, they should tell you something in that link.

Shit, look at the comments in this link, which brought a strong reaction from this Norwegian:

Jpost-talkbackers celebrating the Oslo bombing?
After having experienced the largest terror attack in my hometown since WWII, I am quite frankly shocked to read the talkbacks in Jpost. You people seem happy for the attacks. You dance on the graves of the innocent victims. If these talkbacks are symptomatic of the opinions of the majority of Israelis these days, I can only say this: May you all rot in Hell. You have just removed the last vestiges of sympathy for your failed and tragic state. You inhuman racists don't deserve a state. Never in my life will I again defend Israel.
Karl , Oslo, Norway (07.23.11)

[malcolmjamalawesome]

oh my god you are a bore

[Hannahrain]

Not really unexpected when one sees how the far-right seem to have a hard on for Israel.

Somewhat unexpected given how much attention has been paid to his affiliation with neo-Nazis. They're not usually too keen on us Jews. I'm done now, though. Have a good day.

[Electrotek]

Somewhat unexpected given how much attention has been paid to his affiliation with neo-Nazis. They're not usually too keen on us Jews. I'm done now, though. Have a good day.

This is the new far-right in UK/Europe now.





Neo-Nazis have been targeting Muslim immigrants at a higher pace nowadays to take advantage of the discontent against immigration.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" logic still applies even with the most hardened neo-Nazis in Europe.
And don't forget this woman is the one spearheading the initiative none other than Pamela Geller, a right-wing Jew who thinks liberal Jews who have the "sickness in their souls".

[hawkingvsreeve]

Please stop.

[MissingPerson]

For a lot of white supremacists, the more immediate enemy isn't so much Muslims or minorities themselves. Rather it's "traitorous" white multiculturists and whatever. Seems to be the case here, see the shoulder patch.

[getbetter]

well I guess this last time i look at this thread for awhile.

[Electrotek]

For a lot of white supremacists, the more immediate enemy isn't so much Muslims or minorities themselves. Rather it's "traitorous" white multiculturists and whatever. Seems to be the case here, see the shoulder patch.

Yep

And so much for the "lone wolf" theory:

So much for the lone wolf theory. According to Norwegian journalist @ketilbstensrud, Breivik's lawyer says his client belongs to an international network of right-wing extremists. He planned his actions for a long time, and has requested his hearing on Monday be open to the media so that he can "reveal all". There's also strong suspicion that Breivik was funded by an international network.

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/bat020/~DqCoY

[MissingPerson]

I have my doubts about that, to be honest. I suspect he may have had a few online acquaintances and maybe a loose network of equally dicky bastards in his phonebook. I would seriously doubt he represents the sharp end of anything much more organised than that, though he surely might have aspired to be, and it might suit the others to further the notion.

But we'll see.

[ramblinon]

Yeah you're right...considering that I have a family member that was nearly killed in the London bombings 6 years ago by fellow Muslims, I'm totally unaware of the craziness amongst Muslims.

Plenty of Muslims have been killed by other Muslims since they see us (you're forgetting that I am immersed in Western culture, the fact that 99% of my posts on here are music related should be proof to you on that) as treacherous to them. Go look at how many Shi'ites have been butchered by Sunni fanatics, or the Turks killed 8 years ago in Istanbul, or the Jordanians who were slaughtered by their own 6 years ago?



What makes you think I don't acknowledge the fact that there are extremist shitheads within the Muslim world? I'm from Pakistan originally, I was aghast and horrified when Salman Taseer, a politician with the PPP who made it his passion to get the bullshit blasphemy law removed and defended a Christian woman falsely accused of it, was brutally murdered by someone who was part of his security guard, not to mention the disgust I held when many Pakistanis called this asshole a hero and was refused a funeral. I despise what my country of birth has become with the advent of right-wing religious extremists who are so bigoted with their worldview that nothing can change them, which is why I am well integrated. You won't ever see wanting to go back to Pakistan, but then there are anti-Muslim douchebags who can't differentiate between normal Muslims like me who simply want to live on with life and extremist assholes who live off the fat of the land who still think I don't belong here.

Oh, nice attempt at downplaying the worst atrocities in Europe since the Holocaust there. Go talk to some survivors and refugees of the Bosnian conflict (not all are Muslim, if that's your concern, since Croats were also targeted too) and see how it still affects them to this day. If you don't think the ethnic cleansing and massacres of Bosnians helped pave the way for Islamic extremism then I don't know what else to say to you.

tl;dr


PS - this thread again reiterates to me how becoming agnostic was among the best decisions of my life.

[MissingPerson]

Ooooooh, don't start that.

[Electrotek]

I have my doubts about that, to be honest. I suspect he may have had a few online acquaintances and maybe a loose network of equally dicky bastards in his phonebook. I would seriously doubt he represents the sharp end of anything much more organised than that, though he surely might have aspired to be, and it might suit the others to further the notion.

But we'll see.

I can see why you would have doubts on that, but here's the thing: his rants are shared by a large segment of people out there. Look at the rise of far-right populist groups in Europe, and tragic events was bound to occur. Check out his manifesto, fuck it's disturbing as shit.

[Electrotek]

tl;dr


PS - this thread again reiterates to me how becoming agnostic was among the best decisions of my life.

Adderall isn't a hard drug to acquire.

PS - I'm non-practicing.

[ramblinon]

Looking back on my days as an evangelical Christian, we were programmed into a bit of an "us vs. them" ethos...major persecution complex, our side is the just and holy side, the other side is shit, etc etc... and damn, if I don't see it in most any religious person I meet these days when they talk about current events and politics. It's as if adherence to a holy book precludes you from being able to see anything from an objective 3rd person perspective.

[Electrotek]

Looking back on my days as an evangelical Christian, we were programmed into a bit of an "us vs. them" ethos...major persecution complex, our side is the just and holy side, the other side is shit, etc etc... and damn, if I don't see it in most any religious person I meet these days when they talk about current events and politics. It's as if adherence to a holy book precludes you from being able to see anything from an objective 3rd person perspective.

Jesus, you were once an Evangelical? I can't say the same for myself since I never really practiced it much to begin with.

Shit, I really don't blame you for being an agnostic.

And yeah, spot on with what you just said. Look, I agree with a lot on what you say, but I just disagree that the right does not have their share to blame.

[MissingPerson]

Check out his manifesto, fuck it's disturbing as shit.

It is, but it's in a large part cribbed from the Unabomber and various other screeds. It also makes a reference to Jews running Ireland, which is a new one on me I confess.