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Thread: Health Insurance

  1. #601

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Drewbles View Post
    Yup, if there's credit on my credit card - it must mean I'm not broke!! Borrow, borrow, borrow. Extend debt ceiling six months at a time.. Don't pass a budget for 3+ years. Keep kicking that can down the road.. We are spending $$ we don't have for this.

    The markets are bullshit right now. Fed is pushing $85 million/month into this economy. Once QE ends we will see a correction.

    Job #s are not increasing and overall wages are not increasing. Fewer are contributing to the tax basis. More are jumping on the dole for help (record #s on food stamps).

    Yes, I am a fascist because I believe in fiscal responsibility and I don't need any more govt in my life.
    Amen, brother, amen. ....and another post (above) said [paraphrasing]: "...The U.S. Government is borrowing well within its means." Isn't that the whole point? We should not be borrowing at all! The country needs to learn to live within its means. I liked Bill Clinton. We had a balanced budget under Clinton. Why is that so hard to do now?
    "Some people just need a hi-five in the face."

  2. #602
    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Tom, you're more informed on this subject than anyone on this forum. When the president promised that people who like their current health plans would be able to keep them under Obamacare, do you think he was actually unaware that this wouldn't be the case for a significant number of Americans? Or was this just a standard political promise? Because this isn't just few random anecdotes that the opposition is blowing out of proportion. Millions of Americans had their policies canceled. After all of the bullshit this country has had to endure to get this law on the books it's absolutely mind-boggling how badly the administration fucked up its implementation.

  3. #603

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    Tom, you're more informed on this subject than anyone on this forum. When the president promised that people who like their current health plans would be able to keep them under Obamacare, do you think he was actually unaware that this wouldn't be the case for a significant number of Americans? Or was this just a standard political promise? Because this isn't just few random anecdotes that the opposition is blowing out of proportion. Millions of Americans had their policies canceled. After all of the bullshit this country has had to endure to get this law on the books it's absolutely mind-boggling how badly the administration fucked up its implementation.
    I, for one, could not agree with you more. Think about what happened: There was a bill that was, what, over two thousand pages long that, virtually, nobody read and it got voted upon, and the elected officials actually voted "Yes" on a document that many of them admitted that they had barely glanced-over let alone read? Figure that one out. I can't. It does make one wonder what ELSE they don't read but vote on! Scary stuff.
    "Some people just need a hi-five in the face."

  4. #604
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by RODGERRAMJET View Post
    "...The U.S. Government is borrowing well within its means." Isn't that the whole point? We should not be borrowing at all!
    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Constitution, Art. I, 8
    The Congress shall have power . . . To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
    Go fuck yourself with a tricornered hat.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  5. #605

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    Go fuck yourself with a tricornered hat.
    Uhhh, there's a key phrase in that there U.S. Constitution: "...shall have". It does not say "has to" it says "shall". We should not be borrowing money as a country at all, and we, especially, should not be borrowing money to the extent that the next generation is buried underwater so far in debt they'll never be able to climb out of it (as a country). We ought to be trying to make things better for the next generation, and that doesn't mean we borrow-borrow-borrow-spend-spend-spend the country into proverbial bankruptcy.
    "Some people just need a hi-five in the face."

  6. #606
    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by RODGERRAMJET View Post
    I, for one, could not agree with you more. Think about what happened: There was a bill that was, what, over two thousand pages long that, virtually, nobody read and it got voted upon, and the elected officials actually voted "Yes" on a document that many of them admitted that they had barely glanced-over let alone read? Figure that one out. I can't. It does make one wonder what ELSE they don't read but vote on! Scary stuff.
    I'm glad you agree with the question I asked Tom.

  7. #607
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Proverbial bankruptcy being the key point in all of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  8. #608
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    Tom, you're more informed on this subject than anyone on this forum. When the president promised that people who like their current health plans would be able to keep them under Obamacare, do you think he was actually unaware that this wouldn't be the case for a significant number of Americans? Or was this just a standard political promise? Because this isn't just few random anecdotes that the opposition is blowing out of proportion. Millions of Americans had their policies canceled. After all of the bullshit this country has had to endure to get this law on the books it's absolutely mind-boggling how badly the administration fucked up its implementation.
    I'll leave it to Tom to say what they should have known on the policy side, but on the political side, it was very clear what Obama was trying to say when he made those statements over and over again: he was straining to point out that the ACA was not a state takeover of the insurance industry, and that the ACA wouldn't force people out of their employer-based coverage (or in the case of the elderly, Medicare) and into a new government-run system. When he said "you can keep your plan" over and over, he wasn't even thinking of the people already in the private insurance market. It was an oversimplified piece of rhetoric that now looks like a lie or cluelessness when applied to an entirely different context than the one he was speaking to.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  9. #609

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    Tom, you're more informed on this subject than anyone on this forum. When the president promised that people who like their current health plans would be able to keep them under Obamacare, do you think he was actually unaware that this wouldn't be the case for a significant number of Americans? Or was this just a standard political promise? Because this isn't just few random anecdotes that the opposition is blowing out of proportion. Millions of Americans had their policies canceled. After all of the bullshit this country has had to endure to get this law on the books it's absolutely mind-boggling how badly the administration fucked up its implementation.
    Just want to say that "millions of people" still constitutes a small fraction of the country as a whole.

  10. #610
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    I'll leave it to Tom to say what they should have known on the policy side, but on the political side, it was very clear what Obama was trying to say when he made those statements over and over again: he was straining to point out that the ACA was not a state takeover of the insurance industry, and that the ACA wouldn't force people out of their employer-based coverage (or in the case of the elderly, Medicare) and into a new government-run system. When he said "you can keep your plan" over and over, he wasn't even thinking of the people already in the private insurance market. It was an oversimplified piece of rhetoric that now looks like a lie or cluelessness when applied to an entirely different context than the one he was speaking to.
    To add to this, because I haven't been hearing this point emphasized enough, is that insurers drop and change plans every year. The ACA requirements are what caused these plans to be canceled, that's for sure, but there's been little mention of the fact that people have always gotten plan cancellations/changes for other market reasons in the past.

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  11. #611

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by RODGERRAMJET View Post
    Amen, brother, amen. ....and another post (above) said [paraphrasing]: "...The U.S. Government is borrowing well within its means." Isn't that the whole point? We should not be borrowing at all! The country needs to learn to live within its means. I liked Bill Clinton. We had a balanced budget under Clinton. Why is that so hard to do now?

    Debt is bad, live with in your means. Unless you need to go to school to bootstrap yourself back up, then it's good.

  12. #612
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    If we got rid of pesky child labor laws, kids could start earning towards paying for their college degrees and not having to be saddled with debt.

    9/12: Shifted @ Mercer
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  13. #613
    Banned marooko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    don't confuse shall with should.

  14. #614
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    I wasn't; teabagger libertarian types tend to make the argument that the federal government borrowing money is somehow per se unconstitutional or wrong. "We need to return to limited, constitutional government." I'm disabusing them of a common argument made against the legitimacy of the national debt.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  15. #615
    Banned marooko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    wasn't intended for you.

    doesn't need to say must, will or has to....it says shall.

  16. #616

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    don't trust anyone who starts with the China owns us now crap..

    They are just trying to scare voters into their agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    Say goodbye to that acid, Greg.

  17. #617
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    Tom, you're more informed on this subject than anyone on this forum. When the president promised that people who like their current health plans would be able to keep them under Obamacare, do you think he was actually unaware that this wouldn't be the case for a significant number of Americans? Or was this just a standard political promise? Because this isn't just few random anecdotes that the opposition is blowing out of proportion. Millions of Americans had their policies canceled. After all of the bullshit this country has had to endure to get this law on the books it's absolutely mind-boggling how badly the administration fucked up its implementation.
    I think he -- well, namely, his policy and communications team -- just fucked it up.

    What he said was "If you like your coverage, you can keep it."

    What he should have said was "If you like your coverage, and it meets certain minimum standards set by law, you can keep it."

    The problem, I think, is that he didn't understand (or rather, his experts didn't make it clear to him) that the number of policies currently in force that did not meet these minimum standards was not insignificant. I believe -- this is just my professional intuition, I don't have any facts one way or the other -- that they just didn't think the issue through well enough.

    Regardless, this botch of communication + the incredible GOD DAMNED TRAIN WRECK that Sebelius has led on the Exchange websites has been a significant black eye for Obama's legacy.



    PS as an aside, in case it's not clear: I voted for Obama twice, but I have always thought Sebelius was a worthless political appointee -- and yet even I am surprised at how bad she fucked this up.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  18. #618
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by RODGERRAMJET View Post
    We should not be borrowing at all!
    Alexander Hamilton would beg to differ.

    As do I. What is your basis for your value judgment of what we "should" or "should not" be doing? Why is your value judgment right and mine (and most economists') wrong? There is nothing wrong in borrowing as long as you can service the debt. To think otherwise is just plain old dumb hick backwoods idiocy.

    Let me put it another way. Apple computer is one of capitalism's great success stories: they make billions of dollars hand over fist and export US goods all over the world and pretty much have their shit together financially, up down left and right. Apple also issued $17 billion in bonds earlier this year. This means they borrowed $17 billion dollars. Does this make Apple "fiscally irresponsible"? Investors, by the way, snapped up the bond issues right away -- the financial markets had no problem whatsoever in lending them $17 billion. That's billion with a b.

    The financial markets also have no problem lending money to the federal government. China's investment in treasuries just shows that they have confidence in the US government's ability to repay the debts with considerable ease, and the US economy's ability to shake the Bush-era doldrums and spring back.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  19. #619
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by bug on your lip View Post
    don't trust anyone who starts with the China owns us now crap..

    They are just trying to scare voters into their agenda.
    Right, it's just more backwoods redneck idiot crap. Capital structure theory proposed by people who have to scrounge together $5 for their next 6 pack.

    If anything, China's investment in the US just gives China a financial stake in seeing that our economy thrives. It's like the exact opposite of "they are our masters"; it's more like "they are our business partners".
    Last edited by TomAz; 11-14-2013 at 01:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  20. #620
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Well Andrew Jackson would disagree with you, Tom.

    End the National Bank / Relocate the Cherokee 2016
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  21. #621
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Andrew Jackson was not a Founding Father. Alexander Hamilton was. Therefore, in Tea Party logic, I trump you!

    edit: come to think of it, Andrew Jackson is pretty much the founding father of backwoods idiot redneck crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  22. #622

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    Well Andrew Jackson would disagree with you, Tom.

    End the National Bank / Relocate the Cherokee 2016
    Sure, like Republicans would support someone who SAVED New Orleans.

  23. #623
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by iamthehorn View Post
    Sure, like Republicans would support someone who SAVED New Orleans.
    ahahahahahahahahaha
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  24. #624

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Obamacare is one of the biggest ripoffs ever perpetrated on the American people. It is simply income redistribution and a stealth income tax on the middle class disguised as healthcare reform.

    Everyone is forced to buy a standard package of services whether you need them or not. Everyone must pay for breast pumps, contraceptives, pre-natal care, birth and delivery, well baby care, drug treatment, psychiatric care, etc., etc. even if you are a 60 year old couple you must have these in your policy and pay for them even though you would never use them. The reason why you can't pick the services you need is because the socialists that wrote this piece of trash wanted to spread these costs over everyone forcing people to pay outrageous premiums for services they won't ever use to subsidize those that do. Then the proponents of Obamacare lie and tell you your previous policy was trash because it didn't include all these "critical" services you will never need.

    Then you add allowing kids to stay on policies until they are 26 and eliminate pre-existing conditions and you have an explosion in what a policy costs. Then in a further act of income redistribution they subsidized these policies for the lower income citizens by borrowing more money from China and ripping off the tax paying citizens.

    Obamacare is a ripoff of the tax paying working citizens. You have to pay outrageous premiums and taxes to subsidize Obama's 47 percenters.
    "Some people just need a hi-five in the face."

  25. #625

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Do you understand the concept of insurance?

  26. #626
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    "My fuckin' insurance policy charges me for all of this socialist cancer bullshit and I don't even have fucking cancer."
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  27. #627

    Default Re: Health Insurance

    I love the "men have to pay for maternity care!!" shit. What? You were hatched?

  28. #628
    Banned marooko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    I always was and always will be.

  29. #629
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by RODGERRAMJET View Post
    Everyone must pay for breast pumps, contraceptives, pre-natal care, birth and delivery, well baby care
    to further iamthehorn's point: Note the inherent sexism in the first five things Rodger Ram Jet lists. Note that nowhere in his list did he include "prostate cancer", "ED drugs", or even "torn nutsack".
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  30. #630
    Member Drewbles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    Holy shit you are stupid.

    The markets are not "bullshit". People -- not just any people, but sophisticated investors, professionals, from around the world -- are eagerly buying US treasuries, thereby keeping borrowing rates low. This has nothing to do with QE and everything to do with the strength of the US economy.

    Job #s are in fact increasing. Just where do you get your facts? The economy added 204,000 jobs in October.

    Yes, there are a record number of people on food stamps, because of the Bush administration's catastrophic economic policies which led to market collapse in 2008, from which the economy is only slowly recovering. We should be thankful that the food stamp program exists, otherwise we'd be talking about record number of people starving to death.

    Fiscal responsibility? Cut military spending. Stop invading countries. Stop imprisoning first time nonviolent offenders to life without parole. Stop corporate welfare. Stop agricultural welfare. Means-test for Medicare. Get rid of ridiculous tax loopholes that allow the Mitt Romneys of the world to pay absurdly low tax rates. Stop cutting taxes. The problem is, none of these things is on the Republican agenda: instead, the first thing they do is to try to dismantle the safety net. Look for solutions by penalizing the people who can afford it the least.

    You are a fascist because you are blind to these facts and have bought the "blame the poor" bullshit the same way the germans bought the "blame the jews" bullshit 80 years ago. Everything old is new again.
    I work in finance. I follow the markets and invest - in equities. Market prices right now are not in sync with earnings or company's valuations. These overvaluations, or bubbles, have been fueled by QE - a policy of increasing the money supply (which is unprecedented and different than normal expansionary economic policy). Bankers and investors intently watch the results of Fed meetings. The US economy is not strong - that's why quantitative easing is still in effect and will be in place through at least early 2014. Once the economy turns, then QE will no longer be needed (QE's effectiveness is up for debate).

    Fair point regarding the increase of jobs. I'm always wary of these numbers as they don't paint the whole picture (were they p/t or full-time jobs, what industry, pay, often are "trued-up after the fact).

    You're way off blaming Bush's policies for the 2008 financial crisis. Banks were deregulated with the passing of the Gramm-Leach-Billey Act (in 1999). People were lent money for homes they couldn't afford due to a combination of GLB and the CRA. This led to overvaluation of real estate. Let's not even get into the mortgage backed securities and bundling of loans (Fannie/Freddie). There was a lot of greed involved coupled with loosened regulations. Asset bubbles were created and people got burnt. Then we bailed the people out who created the whole mess. Blaming Bush for that is inaccurate and misleading.

    I agree with everything you said in your fiscal responsibility paragraph. One thing I'd like to add - we have a lot of companies in private industry who are reliant on us being involved in military action. It's a business and if we brought the troops home - the troops would be out of work and so would the people who work for the military suppliers. That's a tough one.

    Lastly, nothing I said blames the poor. Simply put, we can't afford this thing and I don't want to support it financially. Not even close to what happened with the Jews.

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