You don't understand separation of church and state. At all.
I lived through the whole Prop 8 hate machine fueled by so much homophobic propaganda (at least one commercial every hour on prime time TV for months). This propaganda was funded (mainly) by Mormons residing in another state and portrayed gays in the worst possible light you could imagine (unworthy even of their own family's love). But you're right, I could call them 'stupid,' which they are, until I'm blue in the face. If anything, that ridicule somehow empowers them (kinda like the Westboro Baptist freaks). I'm just thankful they will be on the wrong side of history.
Explain to me how "polygamous bigotous hypocritical breeder" is any different from "disgusting f*gg*t sicko". You think you're right, they think they're right, neither is constructive speech or going to get anything accomplished.
When you're in the right (which you are), logic is your friend. That's the better pathway.
guess what? I didn't start attacking them (i.e., fighting back) until they started attacking me. how about I just roll over and take it next time, Tom.
No, my point is, you are going to win more friends -- or at least votes -- if you don't stoop to that level.
I'm on your side on this. I want same sex marriage to be universally recognized and accepted throughout the US. I don't like the Utah decision either. And I understand your anger. I am just pointing out it's easy to fall into the same trap you accuse your opponents of. If you turn this into a tribal battle, you'll lose. If you keep it a rational discussion, your odds are much better.
Tom is right. The way you are speaking is exactly why the conservatives are able to cry discrimination right back at the Left. It's just a huge cycle now.
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The real problem with discourse on the issue is folks on the left generally infer some sort of evil intent in the folks pushing to "protect marriage".
By and large these are not mean people who wish to oppress anyone or even believe themselves to be better than any individual homosexual. If most of them were to sit down and converse with Ru Paul many if not most would be perfectly and genuinely genial.
While it's extremely difficult to have any empathy them it's still a useful exercise to at least TRY to get inside their heads. In their minds it's THEMSELVES they are protecting, not necessarily trying to threaten or oppress others. They want their children to grow up in the exact same environment they did, and seeing it change makes them feel like they're helpless. When people feel helpless they fight and shape their own brains accept anything which makes them feel less helpless. These are people from insular cultures whose minds have been shaped by deeply entrenched and nuanced rhetoric. They might be very intelligent in many ways but perhaps during their formative years they were taught abusive ideas by parents and authority figures they trusted (who in turn were taught these things by their trusted elders). When they talk about the desecration of the institution of marriage they are most likely NOT being hypocritical. They are being honest because the values and morals that were stuffed into them are too difficult to let go of or even modify.
There are probably some things that might shake the very core of your world view like this. Maybe things you might believe so fiercely that if some other group flaunted some opposing view in your face you might get extremely defensive and fight to keep your way of life exactly the same. It happens. Not kidding, it's a useful exercise to think about what those beliefs might be, and what it might be like to face losing that (while not assuming that you are an asshole for being afraid of it).
When they understand that things will not change for them when they change for others they'll start to lighten up. But a bunch of angry hippies only makes them think they've got a point.
Last edited by jackstraw94086; 01-08-2014 at 03:46 PM.
Tom is wrong. Those in power can afford to be polite, to follow all the procedures (that they set up), to be calm and composed. It is a privilege to be able to be polite.
And Jack is not entirely wrong but he ain't right, either. Evil doesn't have to come from evil people. Evil deeds can be done by otherwise reasonable people. Pushing your views on other people so you don't have to deal with people being different than you is evil. The pushers are not necessarily otherwise evil but they can still be doing an evil thing.
Saying they've been abused and fucked up by their wretched culture does not excuse their abuse of others.
I used to be deeply religious. My reason something was wrong was "God said it was" or "the Bible condemns it" (meaning the same thing), not anything rational. The people perpetrating these evils now are not me, of course, but that is still by and large the reasoning. It is not rational. It is not reasonable. It is not good. It is not right.
Rationality also does not change the minds of the irrational.
And kvnty's comment wasn't intended to change minds; it was an expression of frustration in commiseration with djbionik. I wouldn't put that* on a press release but this is far from that.
* I wouldn't express that at all. I have no problems with breeders and would support government recognition of polygamous marriages, too. [Though of course in both cases there need to be rules and limits; like for the latter making it 18 and over and being clear that polygyny, polyandry and polygynandry are all allowed].
i agree that we should always strive to see things from someone else's point of view and not simply resort to name calling or being crass and dramatic to get our point across. i take issue with the "protection" comment. how are they "protecting themselves"? what do they perceive they are protecting themselves from? if they want people to grow up the way they grew up, does that include segregated schools like the ones my mother went to? i understand that in their minds they aren't being evil or hateful, but that is exactly what they are doing. i guess i don't understand why two consensual adults getting married affects them.
and what i came into this thread thinking we were going to discuss, what is going to happen to chris christie?!
why is Mormon so close to moron in spelling?
Chris Christie is toast. Just saw this come across my screen.
BREAKING: The US Attorney is opening an inquiry into Chris Christie's bridge scandal, reports The New York Times
A. He told the media he personally was out on the road that night moving the cones. How can you turn around and say you were lied to and deny all responsibility when you already admitted to physically being out there? The Governor just took orders that day? Nope.
B. His top staffer who is also a high school pal knew about it and ordered the closure with documented evidence that was some sort of political or vindictive move.
C. Emergency vehicles and School Buses were stranded. The idiot obviously didn't think this all the way through. When the elderly and children are involved, you aren't going to recover.
Last edited by faxman75; 01-09-2014 at 07:07 AM.
totally what I'm saying. glad we're on the same page, buddy.
Yes, I tend to respond better to people who are calm and reasonable and polite... but what that really means is that I respond less to those people; I stay more in control and am less uncomfortable and change less.
I have more and more personal reasons to be upset with the Mormon Church than I can imagine almost anyone else here having. But I think a lot of revisionist history has been written about Prop. 8 that fails to account for how much the pro gay rights groups sat on their asses all through 2008 and simply got out-organized by the Mormons and assorted other bigots. The HRC printed a lot of kewl equality bumper stickers and spent a lot of money helping the national Democrats in 2008, but largely was MIA for all of the critical action in the Prop 8. fight.
FWIW, I donated money to the main anti Prop. 8 organization in 2008, though I am neither gay nor a California resident. That is how much the LDS Church pissed me off that year. But my broader point is that the Mormons are being unfairly singled out for holding political views or taking political action that is hardly unique to them, largely because it's politically acceptable to shit all over the Mormons, not so much the Catholics or evangelicals.
Also the Ft Lee/GWB scandal is serious business. There are going to be criminal charges here. And it really seems like it goes all the way up - in this case, one more step - but Christie is denying everything.
He may actually have been completely ignorant of what his staff was doing, despite such close involvement but that doesn't make any sense. Or at least doesn't speak to him being in control of anything. No matter what this hurts Christie because it cuts into the image of himself he has been selling.
I don't know if he will be removed from office. I don't even know if this would hurt him in another NJ-wide election (though he wouldn't get many votes from Fort Lee). But hopefully this will shut up people who thought he had a chance at the Presidency (or even the Republican nomination) in 2016.