Fuck the Republican Party.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

Oh, btw, im a chemist, not an unemployed english major. Sorry i cant spell

where do you do the chemistry ?

[amyzzz]

I am terrified about when my kids will be ready to go to college.

[heart cooks brain]

do them a favor and send them to trade school.

[malcolmjamalawesome]

100 pages a week of lolcatz

[bmack86]

Tom i dont argue with people on the internet and i dont spell check shit i post from my iphone. If you really give a shit or want to argue with me, get a life. If you think these points are invalid, great. Try and explain why there is a larger percent of unemployed college grads right now than at any point in US history.
Also, let us know how this wonderful system is now creating more debt for youn adults than credit cards.

Then why are you arguing? And what is the point in even posting on a message board if you 1) don't want/care about responses or holding a conversation and 2) don't have any interest in making sure that what you post is actually readable or worthwhile?

And the ultimate statement: If you really give a shit about college admissions and the future of the educational system, get a life.

Go back to inbreeding in the Appalachians.

[TomAz]

More high school gaduates are being accepted into college, this percentage increases every year. This percent has risen dramatically since the 70's. This either means that there are smarter kids (lol) or watered down programs that care more about the tuition income than the rigor of the course. More bachelor degrees awarded means the value of this degree decreases, combined with the steady increase in the cost of getting one.

Tenure is a joke, should be gone in any publicly funded institution. If you are a proponent of tenure you are a shity educator.

Tom i dont argue with people on the internet and i dont spell check shit i post from my iphone. If you really give a shit or want to argue with me, get a life. If you think these points are invalid, great. Try and explain why there is a larger percent of unemployed college grads right now than at any point in US history.
Also, let us know how this wonderful system is now creating more debt for youn adults than credit cards.

Shit is broken, a fix means people who are running now get fired, those people cry and fudge numbers to preserve status quo. No fix in sight.

More high school graduates are being accepted into college because more high school graduates are applying to go to college. A Bachelor's degree is now seen as a minimum requirement for many jobs where 40 years ago it was not.
Bachelor degrees have become a required minimum as the economy has shifted from industry to service and technology. I am not sure how you can conclude that "the value of this degree decreases" when it's a must-have to get any kind of decent (non-trade) job.

A greater % of college grads are now unemployed because the economy sucks.

You are dumber than the lint in my navel.

[getbetter]

What a dummy

[VigoTheCarpathian]

[jackstraw94086]

More high school gaduates are being accepted into college, this percentage increases every year. This percent has risen dramatically since the 70's. This either means that there are smarter kids (lol) or watered down programs that care more about the tuition income than the rigor of the course. More bachelor degrees awarded means the value of this degree decreases, combined with the steady increase in the cost of getting one.

keep those wheels turning up there, buddy. Couldn't there be a third reason why more kids are being accepted into college compared to years past? you can do it!

EDIT: actually fourth reason, closely related to the third reason Tom just posited.

[HowToDisappear]

I am terrified about when my kids will be ready to go to college.

It is terrifying. Several things saved us: we're not rich, and having two kids in college simultaneously halved our incomes according to financial aid formulas (the one time having twins was a financial benefit); 2) they're really smart/talented/excellent students. So they received massive grants/scholarships from the private college they attended. We only had to pay a very small percentage of their tuition, and they were able to graduate debt-free. I will forever be grateful to that school; those financial aid packages were literally like winning the lottery. If that hadn't come through, I shudder to think how much debt we would all be in after sending them through the UC system, which like most public university systems has little-to-no monies for grant aid.

[amyzzz]

My kids are smart, but they are not getting the best grades. I need to get out the whip I guess. Or the carrot.

[heart cooks brain]

tie the carrot to the whip.

[HowToDisappear]

Aha, I basically told them from kindergarten on, that good grades were their ticket to scholarships and college, 'cause Mama and Papa don't have the money to pay for it, and college is their ticket out to a life of their own. With a few little reminders over the years to keep their eyes on the prize, they pretty much took it and ran with it.

[SlowMotionApocalypse]

What goes around comes around. Looks like there is a chance that sometime in my lifetime White America will finally pay the price for what they did to my people. Spend centuries conquering and pillaging a land only to sell it out from under themselves because they can't mow their own lawn or to pay a few cents less for their trinkets.

[SlowMotionApocalypse]

Aha, I basically told them from kindergarten on, that good grades were their ticket to scholarships and college, 'cause Mama and Papa don't have the money to pay for it, and college is their ticket out to a life of their own. With a few little reminders over the years to keep their eyes on the prize, they pretty much took it and ran with it.

I was abused as a child and also mistreated by my peers making it difficult to put forth any effort in school. I did make it a few semesters into 13th grade but crashed and burned and never looked back. I am doomed.

[RotationSlimWang]

A Bachelor's degree is now seen as a minimum requirement for many jobs where 40 years ago it was not.
Bachelor degrees have become a required minimum as the economy has shifted from industry to service and technology.

I'd like to see some proof of this, the first part I mean. I work in technology, almost none of the people I've worked with who truly excelled in their position managing IT infrastructure had bachelor's degrees, or at least not ones related to the tech field whatsoever. I'm not particularly convinced that employers for the most part with the exception of much rarer, extremely theory-heavy parts of the industry, give a flying fuck whether you have a Bachelor's. They'd rather you have work experience, or certifications in particular fields (which can be obtained completely without a University more efficiently and cheaper), or even just graduated a technical school.

You know I love you, Tom, but I'm not entirely sure you're qualified to speak knowledgeably about what employers look for in the technology industry.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

I had a great uncle Abraham who came to this country during the great depression. He asked around for jobs, eventually came to a whisky bar and asked if they had any work. they replied "no, unless you know how to keep books." Uncle Abraham had never even read a book so he asked if they would pay him to take out the trash: they did. 40 years later, uncle Abraham sold his multi-million dollar waste disposal company because he wanted to retire in the old country. As he signs the papers and walks out of the meeting, one of the attorneys says "Abraham, you came to this country an illiterate and managed to make millions of dollars - just imagine what you could have done if you were educated" Uncle Abraham responded "I'd be a book keeper at whiskey bar !"

True story. Ask Steve Jobs

[jackstraw94086]

I'd like to see some proof of this, the first part I mean. I work in technology, almost none of the people I've worked with who truly excelled in their position managing IT infrastructure had bachelor's degrees, or at least not ones related to the tech field whatsoever. I'm not particularly convinced that employers for the most part with the exception of much rarer, extremely theory-heavy parts of the industry, give a flying fuck whether you have a Bachelor's. They'd rather you have work experience, or certifications in particular fields (which can be obtained completely without a University more efficiently and cheaper), or even just graduated a technical school.

You know I love you, Tom, but I'm not entirely sure you're qualified to speak knowledgeably about what employers look for in the technology industry.

I can speak to what major employers are looking for in IT (DBAs/PM/PdM, not hardware). Of course a mountain of specific experience in the job being applied for will help. The degree is about getting your foot in the door. Your anectodal experience of performance of college graduates vs. non is not relevant, and it is not proof that most employers of skilled jobs don't care about degrees. The fact of the matter is they do. You might assert that it shouldn't matter, but it just does today.

At this point a degree is at least tacit proof that you have it together enough to attain that degree. Laugh all you want at how pathetic you believe the requirements for a degree are at some places, but the fact of the matter is college is generally does take a fair amount of effort to get through for most people. If you don't have the piece of paper from an institution vouching for you then you are at a disadvantage if you don't have much experience.

[kreutz2112]

Calling an IT technician a "technology job" is like calling an auto-mechanic an engineer.

[grannock]

More high school graduates are being accepted into college because more high school graduates are applying to go to college. A Bachelor's degree is now seen as a minimum requirement for many jobs where 40 years ago it was not.
Bachelor degrees have become a required minimum as the economy has shifted from industry to service and technology. I am not sure how you can conclude that "the value of this degree decreases" when it's a must-have to get any kind of decent (non-trade) job.

You are dumber than the lint in my navel.

So i want to understand your position. You are saying our educational system, both private and public, in this country is as good or better than it was 40 years ago?

Seems like your either trolling me, or are one of those people in real life that just argues with everyone. Maybe you communicate more online than you do in person?

where do you do the chemistry ?

I'm one of the people in public education trying to solve problems rather than preserve jobs for fat old women who fight and argue with your children every day because they are out of touch.

[TomAz]

I'd like to see some proof of this, the first part I mean. I work in technology, almost none of the people I've worked with who truly excelled in their position managing IT infrastructure had bachelor's degrees, or at least not ones related to the tech field whatsoever. I'm not particularly convinced that employers for the most part with the exception of much rarer, extremely theory-heavy parts of the industry, give a flying fuck whether you have a Bachelor's. They'd rather you have work experience, or certifications in particular fields (which can be obtained completely without a University more efficiently and cheaper), or even just graduated a technical school.

You know I love you, Tom, but I'm not entirely sure you're qualified to speak knowledgeably about what employers look for in the technology industry.

I consider IT a trade these days.

[TomAz]

So i want to understand your position. You are saying our educational system, both private and public, in this country is as good or better than it was 40 years ago?

I didn't say that at all. I said your arguments were meritless.

[grannock]

I didn't say that at all. I said your arguments were meritless.

So you think that the educational system will right itself when high school funding is bankrupting several states and we are about to go into a merit based system that will be the biggest clusterfuck anyone has ever comprehended?

[grannock]

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2012/08/...-dumb-as-hell/

Merritt pay is the answer, teachers wont cheat on those tests.

http://www.kmov.com/home/Feds-Teache...180869311.html

Tom, just cause i post on my phone and don't link you 1000 articles backing up what im talking about, doesn't mean im full of shit, it means i have better things to do with my time.

[amyzzz]

Holy crap I agree with Randy and Jack.

[jackstraw94086]

I consider IT a trade these days.

IT can mean a great many things today, not just guys who maintain hardware.

[jackstraw94086]

Merritt pay is the answer, teachers wont cheat on those tests.

Who's Merritt? How will he keep the teachers in line?

[amyzzz]

Grannock, if anyone ever needed spell check, it's you.

[grannock]

also, i'd be interested to know what you mean by "watered down programs". higher acceptance rates mean that more people can get an education. intelligent and talented people who work hard and earn the right to go to a prestigious school (or are alumni or can pay their own way) in their field are probably in more difficult and more strictly graded programs, yes.

At most universities, private or state (not ivy league), teachers give out evaluations at the end of the semester where students comment and rate the teacher and experience. All of my friends working at schools like this, are then evaluated on their performance based on student criticism. 30 years ago if you failed half the class once in a while, you were viewed as a difficult teacher, you separated the men from the boys. Now, if you came close to failing half a class because the rigor of the subject isn't for everyone, you will be fired. Plain and simple. Sometime, 10 15 years ago, the buck stopped falling down to the student if they achieved poorly.

What is really scary is that tenure was designed to keep the difficult teachers around and protect them from admin and student criticism. Now the program is abused. It keeps the lazy, stagnant, out of touch teachers from ever loosing their job, while the difficult teachers will still be booted if large enough portion of their population fails despite tenure.

[jackstraw94086]

At most universities, private or state (not ivy league), teachers give out evaluations at the end of the semester where students comment and rate the teacher and experience. All of my friends working at schools like this, are then evaluated on their performance based on student criticism. 30 years ago if you failed half the class once in a while, you were viewed as a difficult teacher, you separated the men from the boys. Now, if you came close to failing half a class because the rigor of the subject isn't for everyone, you will be fired. Plain and simple. Sometime, 10 15 years ago, the buck stopped falling down to the student if they achieved poorly.

What is really scary is that tenure was designed to keep the difficult teachers around and protect them from admin and student criticism. Now the program is abused. It keeps the lazy, stagnant, out of touch teachers from ever loosing their job, while the difficult teachers will still be booted if large enough portion of their population fails despite tenure.

This happens at ivy league institutions as well.

Everything you've said on this subject is pure conjecture and bullshit.
Stifle your bitterness.