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Thread: The Illegal Immigration Thread

  1. #241
    old school downingthief's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    I have to admit that other than the sore thumb sports terminology and the conflation and confusion of the immigration issue with the drug and kidnapping issues... that is a reasonable statement on the issue. There really is a lot of disinformation out there; hopefully some will read that and have a better understanding of what is going on.

    It is only through understanding what we're opposing that we're going to be able to effectively fight it.
    Sorry, I cannot agree with this, as this is the same woman who went on National television and expressed how the citizens of Arizona were being "terrorized" by illegal immigrants. Again..."terrorized". Disgusting use of the English language there.

    All this article was, in my opinion, was an attempt at some serious CYA. Nothing more.

  2. #242
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Faxy on the accent thing like I posted way back. How then you would answer my question about someone from the Deep South or say Boston. I have a hard time understanding them sometimes and I have lived in both places. Would this mean that an English teacher could not have a deep “American” accent either? Double standard? Do they all have to sound like the nerd teacher in Ferris Bueller? Wait he talks too slow. No english teachers that talk too slow. How about then no teachers that _________ ...
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  3. #243
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Faxy on the accent thing like I posted way back. How then you would answer my question about someone from the Deep South or say Boston. I have a hard time understanding them sometimes and I have lived in both places. Would this mean that an English teacher could not have a deep “American” accent either? Double standard? Do they all have to sound like the nerd teacher in Ferris Bueller? Wait he talks too slow. No english teachers that talk too slow. How about then no teachers that _________ ...
    Ron the law says nothing about Mexican so the same law applies ot those form say the deep south or boston. If their accent is so thick that it's not even understandable then those teachers fall into the same category. \

    I have no idea what double standard you are talking about since there isn't even a standard that's been enforced at this point.

    My basic point is i'm ok with them holding english teachers to higher english standards when teaching children the language for the first time. Nothing more. This has nothing to do with talking slow so i'm not sure why you mentioned that.

  4. #244
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by downingthief View Post
    Sorry, I cannot agree with this, as this is the same woman who went on National television and expressed how the citizens of Arizona were being "terrorized" by illegal immigrants. Again..."terrorized". Disgusting use of the English language there.

    All this article was, in my opinion, was an attempt at some serious CYA. Nothing more.
    Is terrorized really disgusting when you read the stories on the border? Beheadings? Extreme torture and kidnappings? Mind you i'm not talking about the illegals who are here for a better life, i'm talking about the ones who are the problem running drugs, murdering and kidnapping.

    That said the problem is largely exagerated and this story was kind of ignored when it came out. It's my opinion the cartels are in fact terrorists by definition. If we cut the media and the sensational journalists out of the picture and look at the raw numbers there's no reason to even discuss the words being used. You can't deny the most important fact to me as a citizen which is underlined. That tells me all of the politicians and journalists who trumpet the violent crimes aren't doing their job and looking at the real problems surrounding illegal immigration.

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ce-mexico.html

    The entire story is a good read, here is part of it.

    While the nation's illegal-immigrant population doubled from 1994 to 2004, according to federal records, the violent-crime rate declined 35 percent.
    More recently, Arizona's violent-crime rate dropped from 512 incidents per 100,000 residents in 2005 to 447 incidents in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available.

    In testimony to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security last month, Dennis Burke, U.S. attorney for Arizona, noted that Arizona now has more than 6,000 federal law-enforcement agents, with the majority of them employed by the Border Patrol. That represents nearly 10 agents for every mile of international line between Arizona and Sonora.

    Border Patrol presence has been backed by increases in counter-smuggling technology and intelligence, the establishment of permanent highway checkpoints and a dramatic increase in customs inspectors at U.S. ports.

    "The border is as secure now as it has ever been," Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told a Senate panel last week.

  5. #245
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by downingthief View Post
    Sorry, I cannot agree with this, as this is the same woman who went on National television and expressed how the citizens of Arizona were being "terrorized" by illegal immigrants. Again..."terrorized". Disgusting use of the English language there.

    All this article was, in my opinion, was an attempt at some serious CYA. Nothing more.
    I am not showing support for Governor Brewer; I probably should've gone a step or so further with the exceptions... but once she actually gets to the information about the bills, the "here are the facts" part, I don't see how there could be major disagreement on that. The texts are what they are.. and what she's saying here is far more reasonable than the police state, carry around your birth certificate, racial profiling, random stops on the street type of fearmongering I'm getting from the anti- side.

    That article is all kinds of dumb.. but compared to most of what I've seen on these bills - from all sides - it is well above average.
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  6. #246
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    The only thing I got from the espn article was that if you run away from the cops or try to drive off after they pull you over that is considered "reasonable suspicion".

    I'd also like to know more about this "training" local law enforcement is going to receive per Jan Brewer's "executive order".
    Fresh off his "JUICY AUSTRALIA TOUR"

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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    John, fact #2 specifcially calls out an Obama quote which was made shortly after the first bill was signed. Pulling that quote out days after she changed the wording of the bill is a bit disingenuous. No?

  8. #248
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    I am not showing support for Governor Brewer; I probably should've gone a step or so further with the exceptions... but once she actually gets to the information about the bills, the "here are the facts" part, I don't see how there could be major disagreement on that. The texts are what they are.. and what she's saying here is far more reasonable than the police state, carry around your birth certificate, racial profiling, random stops on the street type of fearmongering I'm getting from the anti- side.

    That article is all kinds of dumb.. but compared to most of what I've seen on these bills - from all sides - it is well above average.
    Fair enough, but I think the clarification from her should have mentioned that those points that you bring up were from the Amendment, not the original bill. She's giving the impression that was how the bill was written all along.

    Also, her explanation of the "reasonable suspicion" is a bit scary...for example, why would the cops have their lights on in the first place? She doesn't state that there was a violation of any type. How many people actually "run" from the police on sight? If they aren't wanted for anything, they would have no reason to run.

  9. #249
    old school westcoastpirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    http://www.azcentral.com/members/blog/ejmontini/80311

    Brewer whines about boycott on ESPN.com

    Gov. Jan Brewer had an essay published on ESPN’s web site Wednesday in which she explained why she believes SB1070 was necessary and why she believes that criticism of it, including calls for boycotts and the possibility of losing next year's MLB all-star game, are unwarranted.

    As usually happens when a politician tries to explain a public policy, Brewer produced some very strong arguments — against herself.

    She points out, correctly, that the biggest problems with the border are drug smuggling and human smuggling — neither of which can be prevented by the provisions in SB1070.

    She cites the failure of the federal government to secure the border, again correctly, but can point to nothing in SB1070 that would do anything to correct that, either.

    After all, while the federal government has yet to send National Guard troops to the border, neither has Brewer.

    Finally, she reiterates her determination to make sure that racial profiling of any kind will not be a part of the “reasonable suspicion” that could lead law enforcement personnel to check a person’s papers. Then, she tries to explain what “reasonable suspicion” means.

    She writes:

    “‘Reasonable suspicion’ is a well-understood concept that has been thoroughly vetted through numerous federal court cases. Many have asked: What is reasonable suspicion? Is it race, skin color or national origin? No! Racial profiling is prohibited in the new law. Examples of reasonable suspicion include: a person running away when approached by law enforcement officers, or a car failing to stop when the police turn on their lights and siren.”

    Doing either of those two thing would get a person arrested no matter what nationality they happened to be. And once arrested and booked into jail, immigration status is automatically checked.

    So, what would “reasonable suspicion” be for a person who cooperates with police?

    Speaking Spanish?

    The governor and the state legislature wanted to do something to make themselves look like they were getting tough on immigration. It wasn’t the media who heralded SB1070 as the “toughest immigration law in the country.” It was the politicians.

    Now that people across the country have condemned the law, and Arizona may soon suffer economic consequences because of it, Brewer and her lawmaker pals want to play the part of victims.

    Too bad for us.

    The politicians will be fine. They’ll probably get reelected, as they’d hoped.

    But the state will suffer. If Brewer and lawmakers had taken a minute before passing the bill to consider the potential cost to the state versus the benefit, none of this might have happened.

    But then, they wouldn’t have been able to brag about having the “toughest immigration law in the country.”
    Fresh off his "JUICY AUSTRALIA TOUR"

  10. #250
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread


  11. #251
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Those silly Arizona people:

    In the 1990s, Arizona hired hundreds of teachers whose first language was Spanish as part of a broad bilingual-education program. Many were recruited from Latin America.


    It's also ironic that people who live in England, that speak guess what? They couldn't teach English because their English accent would be a no no ... such is life ..... The only school I am going to attend from now on is Life ...
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  12. #252
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Those silly Arizona people:
    uhh ...what?
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Because fucking millenials that's what

  13. #253
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by westcoastpirate View Post
    The only thing I got from the espn article was that if you run away from the cops or try to drive off after they pull you over that is considered "reasonable suspicion".

    I'd also like to know more about this "training" local law enforcement is going to receive per Jan Brewer's "executive order".
    I hope I didn't post this before. I heard it on TV a few days ago. "Are cops always paranoid because every time they look in the mirror, they see a cop."
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  14. #254
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    uhh ...what?
    Its true, some crazy white lady wants to ruin your state.

  15. #255
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    So say those silly republicans, or those silly right wing people in Arizona, not those silly Arizona people.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Because fucking millenials that's what

  16. #256
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    So say those silly republicans, or those silly right wing people in Arizona, not those silly Arizona people.
    But Amyzz it's like 70 something percentage. They took a poll here and the poll people suck but it's not a lot different here in the polls.

    It's always a stupid question like "If you see an ethnic and he is killing a pg woman, do you think the cop should question him?" ...
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  17. #257
    Coachella Junkie faxman75's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Ron and Chris, put together a cohesive thought, idea or opinion about illegal immigration or GTFO. We've seen the Machete trailer plenty, we get it, cool movie, you tried dialog once in this thread and it didn't work, we don't want to see the Machete trailers again and again. Ron, your argument about English speaking people with accents doesn't make sense. It's simple. If you don't speak English well or you are have poor English grammar they don't want you teaching the language to people who are new to the language. Your blanket hypothetical questions about those who live in Boston, England and the deep south are ridiculous. There are people in all of those regions who have accents but are grammatically correct and speak the language clearly. Your argument is misguided.

    You should be arguing about who is arbitrarily going to be making these decisions and what guidelines are they going to follow when it comes to establishing their ability to teach English.

  18. #258
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faxman75 View Post
    Ron and Chris, put together a cohesive thought, idea or opinion about illegal immigration or GTFO. We've seen the Machete trailer plenty, we get it, cool movie, you tried dialog once in this thread and it didn't work, we don't want to see the Machete trailers again and again. Ron, your argument about English speaking people with accents doesn't make sense. It's simple. If you don't speak English well or you are have poor English grammar they don't want you teaching the language to people who are new to the language. Your blanket hypothetical questions about those who live in Boston, England and the deep south are ridiculous. There are people in all of those regions who have accents but are grammatically correct and speak the language clearly. Your argument is misguided.

    You should be arguing about who is arbitrarily going to be making these decisions and what guidelines are they going to follow when it comes to establishing their ability to teach English.
    Then we do agree, who establishes the norm. Who watches the watchers ...
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  19. #259

    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    This is a never ending arguement, that is brought up every time it is getting close to an election.

  20. #260
    Triple Whore TheScenestar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Can't we all just get along Arizona?

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  21. #261

    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    You can't teach a racist sense. Once the Mexicans are gone they will go back to hating blacks.

    "It does no service to the cause of racial equality for white people to content themselves with judging themselves to be nonracist. Few people outside the clan or skinhead movements own up to all-out racism these days... People must take the extra step. They must become anti-racist."
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  22. #262
    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faxman75 View Post
    John, fact #2 specifcially calls out an Obama quote which was made shortly after the first bill was signed. Pulling that quote out days after she changed the wording of the bill is a bit disingenuous. No?
    Quote Originally Posted by downingthief View Post
    Fair enough, but I think the clarification from her should have mentioned that those points that you bring up were from the Amendment, not the original bill. She's giving the impression that was how the bill was written all along.
    I have heard that story that HB 2162 was done just to clarify the language, not to make significant changes. There is evidence that in at least some cases - see: Pearce, Russell - that's bullshit but I am quite certain that some people interpreted SB 1070 differently than I did and don't see much change.

    It is, however, still disingenuous to not at least mention HB 2162 and/or that SB 1070 has already been changed by the newer bill.


    Quote Originally Posted by downingthief View Post
    Also, her explanation of the "reasonable suspicion" is a bit scary...for example, why would the cops have their lights on in the first place? She doesn't state that there was a violation of any type. How many people actually "run" from the police on sight? If they aren't wanted for anything, they would have no reason to run.
    As discussed elsewhere in the piece "reasonable suspicion" does not and cannot trigger a detention or arrest. To get to the "reasonable suspicion" portion the cop already has to have already decided to detain you for violating some unrelated law or ordinance.

    For example: you run a red light, the cop sees you and turns on the flashing lights, you run away rather than pull over, and it is this which constitutes or contributes to (not sure which) reasonable suspicion that you are illegal.

    It is also worth noting that in most cases this is an incredibly minor thing; when the cop finally catches up with you and pulls you over they would ask for a driver's license anyway. If you have one then the legal status issue is closed. If you don't have one then, again, little would change: a cop is likely to arrest someone that is running a red light, running from an officer and driving without a license and that arrest would lead to a check on legal status anyway.

    Governor Brewer really could've been more clear on this, though.
    Last edited by mountmccabe; 05-07-2010 at 01:05 PM. Reason: add "For example:"
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    See how wrong you are, Tommy? Randy is agreeing with you.

  23. #263
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    You guys figure this out yet? Did you at least cover something that hasn't already been covered?

  24. #264
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    The Rialto Theatre/Tucson, Arizona This just in: Cypress Hill has canceled their scheduled 5/21 performance at the Rialto Theatre over their opposition to Arizona's recently passed and incredibly misguided SB 1070 legislation. More information to come... Refunds available at point of sale or automatically if you paid with credit card.

    I wasn't planning on going or anything... just putting it out there.

    Cypress Hill is making a difference... one blunt at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by nathanfairchild View Post
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  25. #265
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Those silly Arizona people:

    In the 1990s, Arizona hired hundreds of teachers whose first language was Spanish as part of a broad bilingual-education program. Many were recruited from Latin America.
    This is what I came here to post. They spent years actively recruiting people with accents and now they pass a law that doesn't allow them to teach the courses they were recruited for. Fuck you Arizona.

  26. #266
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    I live in a border town (mexican side) and I thank God I don't live in a border town that is near as violent as Cd. Juarez, Tijuana or Reynosa. Standing from this point view if Arizonans (gvt. officials) are anywhere near concerned with the border violence that is going on here in Mexico, Texas has there hands full.

    I don't want to make this comment to long to read... I just want to say that I'm very happy to read all of your positive comments and views on this issue. I love Tucson and its concert scene, I love going to the Rialto and To Club Congress to catch some shows, it kind of gets me away from the violence that's on a daily basis here... I'm kind of concerned on how this law will be enforced, I have everything in order (my passport) and including a fast lane to cross the border, but I'm just going to hate if I get pulled over in the middle of the night when I'm heading back home from a cop just asking for my passport and the reason I got pulled over was because of my mexican car plates...
    Last edited by sikiboy; 05-10-2010 at 07:48 PM.

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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SepaGroove View Post
    You shouldn't feel uncool for not going to EDC, you should feel uncool because you are uncool.

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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread


  29. #269
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    Uh Oh.....now AZ is in trouble with the UN over their ethnic studies.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100512/...ethnic_studies

    PHOENIX – Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer has signed a bill targeting a school district's ethnic studies program, hours after a report by United Nations human rights experts condemned the measure.

    State schools chief Tom Horne, who has pushed the bill for years, said he believes the Tucson school district's Mexican-American studies program teaches Latino students that they are oppressed by white people.

    Public schools should not be encouraging students to resent a particular race, he said.

    "It's just like the old South, and it's long past time that we prohibited it," Horne said.

    Brewer's signature on the bill Tuesday comes less than a month after she signed the nation's toughest crackdown on illegal immigration — a move that ignited international backlash amid charges the measure would encourage racial profiling of Hispanics. The governor has said profiling will not be tolerated.

    The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group.

    The Tucson Unified School District program offers specialized courses in African-American, Mexican-American and Native-American studies that focus on history and literature and include information about the influence of a particular ethnic group.

    For example, in the Mexican-American Studies program, an American history course explores the role of Hispanics in the Vietnam War, and a literature course emphasizes Latino authors.

    Horne, a Republican running for attorney general, said the program promotes "ethnic chauvinism" and racial resentment toward whites while segregating students by race. He's been trying to restrict it ever since he learned that Hispanic civil rights activist Dolores Huerta told students in 2006 that "Republicans hate Latinos."

    District officials said the program doesn't promote resentment, and they believe it would comply with the new law.

    The measure doesn't prohibit classes that teach about the history of a particular ethnic group, as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment.

    About 1,500 students at six high schools are enrolled in the Tucson district's program. Elementary and middle school students also are exposed to the ethnic studies curriculum. The district is 56 percent Hispanic, with nearly 31,000 Latino students.

    Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them.

    "It's a highly engaging program that we have, and it's unfortunate that the state Legislature would go so far as to censor these classes," he said.

    Six UN human rights experts released a statement earlier Tuesday saying all people have the right to learn about their own cultural and linguistic heritage, they said.

    Brewer spokesman Paul Senseman didn't directly address the UN criticism, but said Brewer supports the bill's goal.

    "The governor believes ... public school students should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people," Senseman said.

    Arce could not immediately be reached after Brewer signed the bill late Tuesday.

  30. #270
    Banned marooko's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Illegal Immigration Thread

    The UN? What ever.

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