The Politics Of Scalping (Part II)

[mob roulette]

I posted this as a joke yesterday and had these in my messagebox today, both from lurkers with less than ten posts:

"I have 2 VIP passes for the festival, and 2 camping passes aswell. If you're interested."

"You seriously need 28? I have two -- how much are you willing to pay?"

so the question remains.

yablo, are these guys asshats and opportunists?

OR

tom, york, etc. is this the way the market truly works?


discuss.

[Hannahrain]

tom, york, etc.

thom yorke, etc.

[TomAz]

Of course this is how it works. You say you want something, others have that same something.. if you can agree to a price then you can do the deal. it can be coachella tickets, a box of wheaties, or a 1978 Ford Mustang II. it's been this way, more or less, since the beginning of human time.

[Yablonowitz]

I don't have much to say other than what I already said. I think that it's Grade AA shitty for someone to buy tickets to Coachella with the specific intent to sell them for money.

I think it's Grade B shitty to buy them with the expectation that they were for friend(s), have the friends cancel out but then try to sell them for a huge profit.

I don't have a big problem with someone selling them for $10-$20 over face value, though I personally would frown on it.

Also...that may be how the "free" market works. But the free market can be shitty. That's my point.

[york707]

Look, if someone would pay me $8000 for my 3-day pass, I would sell it. I would then buy one from someone else for $1000 or whatever else price they were going at. Where is the problem in that?

[suprefan]

Nothing, but I do find it funny that people wil believe almost anything on this board because they dont know any better.... Rememeber a few weeks ago when kids were asking for the ducat king password and the pre sale password they actually listened to all of our suggestions?

[Yablonowitz]

Look, if someone would pay me $8000 for my 3-day pass, I would sell it. I would then buy one from someone else for $1000 or whatever else price they were going at. Where is the problem in that?

I just think it's unfair to people who may really want to go but can't spend that kind of money. If it were a widget, I wouldn't give a shit, but this is something you can't replicate and has a different value than can be assigned to it by dollars.

This is just my opinion. Whatever...if someone comes up and offers you $8000 and you take it...fine.

But the amount of money you're willing to pay does not necessarily equal the degree to which you want to see the show, and I'd be more interested in selling tickets to someone who really wanted to go. There are probably thousands of those people who can't afford to pay $8,000, but who could afford the at-cost price or even $10-$20 more. There's no way to guarantee that you're going to end up selling it to a person like that but at least you're not excluding them from the opportunity.

[TomAz]

Yablo, does your opinion change if we're talking about, say, Super Bowl tickets?

what if it's an antique desk? Your great aunt buys it at a garage sale for $100, then gets on Antique Road Show and finds out it's "worth" (meaning there are theoretically willing buyers) $10,000? what grade shitty is that?

[schoolofruckus]

Bleeding Heart, Grade Yablo liberalism aside (I, by contrast, am an advocate of capitalism), I object strongly to the act of ticket mark-ups when that was the motivation for buying them. I think it's a despicable, parasitic way for people of precious little talent or savvy or integrity to make money. That said, I don't think it should be illegal; as Tom said (although I don't know that this was his point), when you have something someone else wants, name your price, and let them decide if they want to take it. Just because we're talking concert tickets doesn't change the principle, and I think drawing arbitrary legal lines is a bad precedent. Not to mention, all retail outlets buy goods from a distributor and then mark them up to fit their own pricing structures, so we can't start outlawing this practice entirely. But just because it should be legal doesn't mean it should be done.

I think it's even more despicable for one to sell tickets that they've gotten for free for above face value. That said, there was a time where I was on a guest list for a 311 show, and I was given 4 tickets when I only asked for two; I sold one for half price and gave the other away because the show was sold out and I wanted some money for beer. In my view, selling something for less than the buyer would have paid for it via any other avenue is not repulsive. I'm sure lots of people would think that's not right, though.

My least favorite thing ever is when people brag about how good they are at scalping, and then print two dozen tickets that they just bought online in a forum where everyone is distraught at having failed to acquire tickets to that show.

However, I'm not wholly opposed to looking for the best offer possible when you've bought tickets with the intent to go to the show, and then through circumstances that were not your fault, became unable to attend. I'd be furious if I had to miss Rage Against the Machine at Coachella this year; what's the harm in saying "what'll you give me for it?" If some person wants to give me a little extra to console me on my loss, well, I think I deserve that.

I'm very arbitrary, and I base the bulk of my crimes on intent. I also wouldn't convict Vincent for blowing Marvin's head off in "Pulp Fiction".

[psychic friend]

what i find irritating are the numerous emails and myspace messages saying we sold all the tickets to just the scalpers. Are there really over 100,000K tickets on ebay and craigslist?

[TomAz]

blaming this on GV is just people being in denial.

[dontfeedthebird]

We all knew Coachella was fast approaching... And I opted to go hungry for a week so I could get mine.

If you really wanted to go, you wouldn't have to pay $8,000.

[ivankay]

The capitalism debate rages again. i can't (no matter how many times i have been on the shut out end) bitch about someone selling a non necessity (as much as i feel Coachella is a necessity, i will live if i don't go) for a profit to a willing buyer. Same goes for comic books, old records, any kind of collectible item.

Now selling things people need (wheter for survival or mandate) for a profit can be debated as shitty. i think since driver's insurance is mandated by law, the profiteering off the selling of driver's insurance should be kept to a minimum in order to pay employees and run the bussiness. The gross profits of the insurance industry suggest they are taking advantage of law to rape the shit out of their customers. Same goes for companies that are in charge of distributing the resources we have grown dependant on (gas and electricity). The shit i was just hearing on the news about the incredible increase in costs for medical care is incredibly shitty (unecessary procedure...charge what ever someone wants to pay, but keeping someone alive and bankrupting them in the process while the company see record profits = immoral). Trying to put concert tickets on this level just seems too much about the personal "sour grapes" anger more so than being about justice.

Other than that...damn! those prices for tickets is crazy.

[schoolofruckus]

Now selling things people need (wheter for survival or mandate) for a profit can be debated as shitty. i think since driver's insurance is mandated by law, the profiteering off the selling of driver's insurance should be kept to a minimum in order to pay employees and run the bussiness. The gross profits of the insurance industry suggest they are taking advantage of law to rape the shit out of their customers. Same goes for companies that are in charge of distributing the resources we have grown dependant on (gas and electricity). The shit i was just hearing on the news about the incredible increase in costs for medical care is incredibly shitty (unecessary procedure...charge what ever someone wants to pay, but keeping someone alive and bankrupting them in the process while the company see record profits = immoral). Trying to put concert tickets on this level just seems too much about the personal "sour grapes" anger more so than being about justice.

This is why I despise the medical practice. The whole thing needs a fucking overhaul. Health care needs to be reclassified from "goods and services" to "basic right as a human being". Enough of these million-dollar doctors. I realize that doctors and surgeons and nurses live their whole lives on call, and have to see some of the most horrific shit known to man, not to mention having to pay for costly and lengthy medical school. However, if I were in shitty health (thankfully, it's the opposite) and in need of regular medical attention, I would be living my whole life in a tin fucking can, getting less sleep than a damn doctor, and having to view the atrocity that would be known as my bank statement. This shit's just not right.

[Yablonowitz]

Yablo, does your opinion change if we're talking about, say, Super Bowl tickets?

what if it's an antique desk? Your great aunt buys it at a garage sale for $100, then gets on Antique Road Show and finds out it's "worth" (meaning there are theoretically willing buyers) $10,000? what grade shitty is that?

I'm not talking about antique desks. I never said this is a broad principle with buying and selling. CONTEXT. TOM.....stick with the context of this argument (which isn't an argument, in all reality).

To me it is Grade AA shitty to buy tickets to this festival with the intention of selling them for a profit. I'm not talking about legality. I'm just talking about shittiness. That's shitty.

If the intention for purchasing the ticket was to either get one for a friend who can't make it or for youself and your plans change then we are in a whole different league. It's like going from the MLB of shitty to little league shitty or no shitty at all. And even then, we're just talking about my personal fucking opinion of what you should do in that case. A code. Like Omar says, "A man's gotta have a code." My code would prevent me from trying to sell it for as much as I can over trying to sell it to someone who really wants to go.

But I'm not arguing my codes. You don't like my codes, fuck y'all.

[C0linS]

This is why I despise the medical practice. The whole thing needs a fucking overhaul. Health care needs to be reclassified from "goods and services" to "basic right as a human being". Enough of these million-dollar doctors. I realize that doctors and surgeons and nurses live their whole lives on call, and have to see some of the most horrific shit known to man, not to mention having to pay for costly and lengthy medical school. However, if I were in shitty health (thankfully, it's the opposite) and in need of regular medical attention, I would be living my whole life in a tin fucking can, getting less sleep than a damn doctor, and having to view the atrocity that would be known as my bank statement. This shit's just not right.

As much as I love living in the states, I just cant get my head round the whole medical insurance thing. I was SHOCKED to find out how much that sorta stuff costs, I guess ive always been a bit spoiled knowing that if the worst should happen at least it aint gonna cost me. One thing though, not all doctors and healthcare workers are living up the champagne lifestyle, trust me.

[ivankay]

As much as I love living in the states, I just cant get my head round the whole medical insurance thing. I was SHOCKED to find out how much that sorta stuff costs, I guess ive always been a bit spoiled knowing that if the worst should happen at least it aint gonna cost me. One thing though, not all doctors and healthcare workers are living up the champagne lifestyle, trust me.

It appears the majority of increases in medical costs find their way back to the pharmaceautical part. Drug dealers all around have the same profit margin in mind.

i can't say i have run into any healthcare workers in emergency rooms or hospitals that don't seem more motivated by the need to help than the need to cash in. Now the cosmetic suckers are an entirely differnt story (yes there are the few that will help the burn victims and such, but most are in it for the $$$$$$)

[chunk]

I'm not talking about antique desks. I never said this is a broad principle with buying and selling. CONTEXT. TOM.....stick with the context of this argument (which isn't an argument, in all reality).

To me it is Grade AA shitty to buy tickets to this festival with the intention of selling them for a profit. I'm not talking about legality. I'm just talking about shittiness. That's shitty.

But I'm not arguing my codes. You don't like my codes, fuck y'all.

so word.

[schoolofruckus]

One thing though, not all doctors and healthcare workers are living up the champagne lifestyle, trust me.

That's true. I made the broadest of generalizations, and I would like to say - for those that would assume otherwise - that I absolutely don't think all doctors are rich, or evil for that matter. And yes, I know that when it's crunch time, they're about saving lives, not CTC. But I still think there's some major ground-level changes that need to be made as far as the health care market goes.

[corpathina]

what if someone that would otherwise be unable to go sold a ticket at a higher price to pay for travel expenses, etc? i just find the whole morality of the scalping thing interesting.. i personally am very against it and find it yablo-grade shitty, but i'm trying to see it from all angles. i saved up for coachella and had enough money for the 3-day pass, but the travel expenses are going to break the bank. as against scalping as i am, it was almost tempting to borrow the money for an extra ticket and scalp it just enough to pay for the travel, food, etc. i'm didn't do that and consequently am having to sell my internal organs to get out there, but i really wonder, would that have been so bad? or what if you scalped it so you could help underprivileged friends go?

how black and white is this issue?

[kreutz2112]

...Are there really over 100,000K tickets on ebay and craigslist?

I bought my friend a ticket for Sunday on craigslist for $180 and there were NOT that many tickets for sale, but that was about a week ago. If I were to make an educated guess I would say that between ebay and craigslist there are about 3000-4000 tickets for sale (a three day pass being one ticket) so assuming 60,000 tickets were sold for each day, my GUESS is right, and half the tickets are three day passes and half are single tickets that means roughly 3% of three day passes are being scalped and 3% of single tickets are being scalped...please keep in mind I am basing this guess on the week I spent on ebay and craigslist to get my friend a ticket. If I did not buy my friend his ticket from a scalper he would not be going. I took what I could get at the best price I could find it for.

[chunk]

obviously you think theres a gray area there. thats all that matters in the end.

i personally dont think you can ever get away from yablos central thesis:

buying a ticket to simply profit off it is grade AA shitty. no matter what your motives or excuses are.

[kreutz2112]

buying a ticket to simply profit off it is grade AA shitty.[/I] no matter what your motives or excuses are.

I agree with this, but it is going to happen and I dont know how to stop it. YES I know I could have just not bought the ticket, but that just wasn't an option for my friend.

[chunk]

you didnt buy a ticket to profit off it. i thought you were whatever back then for a different reason. dont lump in yablo, though. he has nothing against you. youre an innocent victim here.

[kreutz2112]

I know.

[corpathina]

obviously you think theres a gray area there. thats all that matters in the end.

i personally dont think you can ever get away from yablos central thesis:

buying a ticket to simply profit off it is grade AA shitty. no matter what your motives or excuses are.

well, i think he also outlined it well in distinguishing the different levels of shittiness. i think the gray area comes into play for me when i think about it in terms of premeditated scalping or a reaction to pure desperation.

or are motivations irrelevant? are all scalpers going to the same special place in hell for scalpers, regardless of their justifications?

[chunk]

you have something in common with them: you are buying a ticket in order to make a profit. whether the profit is for a cancer baby or crack, the end result is that the tickets are being sold twice and thats not what the promoters nor artists intended.

maybe not hell, but at least they can be unemployed like they should be.

edit: let me also say i have to turn in now and i understand your predicament. you seem like a nice person and i hope things work out for you if you do indeed need to do what you were describing.

[corpathina]

yeah, i understand. scalping is scalping, murder is murder, sex is sex. it all boils down to the same thing in the end, but if things were as simple as that, we wouldn't need courts, just laws.

and i was giving the personal scenario as just an example of how even someone who finds scalping to be detestable can still justify it slightly in her mind. yes, it's still wrong and shitty, but it's sort of like a prostitute that has a day job but has to have supplemental income because of insane health care costs and medical expenses, being a single mom, or taking care of other extenuating circumstances. either way, i'm have not scalped and never will. i wasn't considering it seriously, only trying to bring it on a personal level so i could understand the situation from both angles.

that aside, most scalpers are just greedy assholes looking to make a profit. so, for the people that look forward to coachella as much as we do, not for the music, experience, friends, etc, but for the opportunity to make shitloads of money off desperate people, i hope they get ebola, the black death, and the aidz all at the same.

[Yablonowitz]

what if someone that would otherwise be unable to go sold a ticket at a higher price to pay for travel expenses, etc? i just find the whole morality of the scalping thing interesting.. i personally am very against it and find it yablo-grade shitty, but i'm trying to see it from all angles. i saved up for coachella and had enough money for the 3-day pass, but the travel expenses are going to break the bank. as against scalping as i am, it was almost tempting to borrow the money for an extra ticket and scalp it just enough to pay for the travel, food, etc. i'm didn't do that and consequently am having to sell my internal organs to get out there, but i really wonder, would that have been so bad? or what if you scalped it so you could help underprivileged friends go?

how black and white is this issue?

Travel expenses have to be considered when you're saving for the festival. My own personal code would not allow me to sell the ticket at a profit for travel expenses. Plus...dude...you live in Louisiana...wouldn't traveling to Bonaroo be less expensive?

[corpathina]

Travel expenses have to be considered when you're saving for the festival. My own personal code would not allow me to sell the ticket at a profit for travel expenses. Plus...dude...you live in Louisiana...wouldn't traveling to Bonaroo be less expensive?

yeah, bonnaroo would be less expensive. but i'm talking about coachella, not bonnaroo.

and i'm not actually considering scalping here, only considering things hypothetically from both sides.

my personal budget has been alright and i'll be able to go to coachella without a hitch. i was just trying to see things from a different viewpoint.