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Thread: 9/11 conspiracy theories

  1. #91
    man-homie obzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by BKsaysAction! View Post
    Whats funny is their excuse was on that day they were just so happening to have an air excercise to prevent something like this from happening...out in the atlantic.
    that exercise was most likely aimed at protecting the eastern seaboard from an attack from off the atlantic by an invader-which couldve been thwarted-but the projectile itself was considered our own,and it came from within

  2. #92
    Coachella Junkie dorkfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Here's my biggest question about the Let's Roll bullshit...

    How in the FUCK is it that they claimed some guys on the planes were using their cell phones to call their family? Ever try to use a cell phone on an airplane? It doesn't fucking work. They don't beam the signal UP, goddammit.
    "“On land, we have antenna sectors that point in three directions — say north, southwest, and southeast,” she explained. “Those signals are radiating across the land, and those signals do go up, too, due to leakage.”

    From high altitudes, the call quality is not very good, and most callers will experience drops. Although calls are not reliable, callers can pick up and hold calls for a little while below a certain altitude, she added."

    http://telephonyonline.com/wireless/...final_contact/



    The same government whose attempt to fool Americans into believing that Colin Powell meekly pointing at an Iraqi ice cream truck was their best effort to prove a clear and present danger to our lives worth going to war existed somehow was also able to pull off the most elaborately complex plan in the history of mankind without leaving any solid evidence to prove their misdeeds other than crumbs of facts that college kids with a YouTube video were able to unravel. Probably not.
    *based upon tedious fact checking.

  3. #93
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    NORAD Mission and Structure. NORAD is a binational command established in 1958 between the United States and Canada. Its mission was, and is, to defend the airspace of North America and protect the continent. That mission does not distinguish between internal and external threats; but because NORAD was created to counter the Soviet threat, it came to define its job as defending against external attacks.96

    The threat of Soviet bombers diminished significantly as the Cold War ended, and the number of NORAD alert sites was reduced from its Cold War high of 26. Some within the Pentagon argued in the 1990s that the alert sites should be eliminated entirely. In an effort to preserve their mission, members of the air defense community advocated the importance of air sovereignty against emerging "asymmetric threats" to the United States: drug smuggling, "non-state and state-sponsored terrorists," and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile technology.97

    NORAD perceived the dominant threat to be from cruise missiles. Other threats were identified during the late 1990s, including terrorists' use of aircraft as weapons. Exercises were conducted to counter this threat, but they were not based on actual intelligence. In most instances, the main concern was the use of such aircraft to deliver weapons of mass destruction.

    Prior to 9/11, it was understood that an order to shoot down a commercial aircraft would have to be issued by the National Command Authority (a phrase used to describe the president and secretary of defense). Exercise planners also assumed that the aircraft would originate from outside the United States, allowing time to identify the target and scramble interceptors. The threat of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners within the United States-and using them as guided missiles-was not recognized by NORAD before 9/11.98

    Notwithstanding the identification of these emerging threats, by 9/11 there were only seven alert sites left in the United States, each with two fighter aircraft on alert. This led some NORAD commanders to worry that NORAD was not postured adequately to protect the United States.99

    In the United States, NORAD is divided into three sectors. On 9/11, all the hijacked aircraft were in NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (also known as NEADS), which is based in Rome, New York. That morning NEADS could call on two alert sites, each with one pair of ready fighters: Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Virginia.100 Other facilities, not on "alert," would need time to arm the fighters and organize crews.

    NEADS reported to the Continental U.S. NORAD Region (CONR) headquarters, in Panama City, Florida, which in turn reported to NORAD headquarters, in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

    Interagency Collaboration. The FAA and NORAD had developed protocols for working together in the event of a hijacking. As they existed on 9/11, the protocols for the FAA to obtain military assistance from NORAD required multiple levels of notification and approval at the highest levels of government.101

    FAA guidance to controllers on hijack procedures assumed that the aircraft pilot would notify the controller via radio or by "squawking" a transponder code of "7500"-the universal code for a hijack in progress. Controllers would notify their supervisors, who in turn would inform management all the way up to FAA headquarters in Washington. Headquarters had a hijack coordinator, who was the director of the FAA Office of Civil Aviation Security or his or her designate.102

    If a hijack was confirmed, procedures called for the hijack coordinator on duty to contact the Pentagon's National Military Command Center (NMCC) and to ask for a military escort aircraft to follow the flight, report anything unusual, and aid search and rescue in the event of an emergency. The NMCC would then seek approval from the Office of the Secretary of Defense to provide military assistance. If approval was given, the orders would be transmitted down NORAD's chain of command.103

    The NMCC would keep the FAA hijack coordinator up to date and help the FAA centers coordinate directly with the military. NORAD would receive tracking information for the hijacked aircraft either from joint use radar or from the relevant FAA air traffic control facility. Every attempt would be made to have the hijacked aircraft squawk 7500 to help NORAD track it.104

    The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, "vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft," where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path.105

    In sum, the protocols in place on 9/11 for the FAA and NORAD to respond to a hijacking presumed that

    the hijacked aircraft would be readily identifiable and would not attempt to disappear;
    there would be time to address the problem through the appropriate FAA and NORAD chains of command; and
    hijacking would take the traditional form: that is, it would not be a suicide hijacking designed to convert the aircraft into a guided missile.
    On the morning of 9/11, the existing protocol was unsuited in every respect for what was about to happen.

    American Airlines Flight 11 FAA Awareness. Although the Boston Center air traffic controller realized at an early stage that there was something wrong with American 11, he did not immediately interpret the plane's failure to respond as a sign that it had been hijacked. At 8:14, when the flight failed to heed his instruction to climb to 35,000 feet, the controller repeatedly tried to raise the flight. He reached out to the pilot on the emergency frequency. Though there was no response, he kept trying to contact the aircraft.106

    At 8:21, American 11 turned off its transponder, immediately degrading the information available about the aircraft. The controller told his supervisor that he thought something was seriously wrong with the plane, although neither suspected a hijacking. The supervisor instructed the controller to follow standard procedures for handling a "no radio" aircraft.107

    The controller checked to see if American Airlines could establish communication with American 11. He became even more concerned as its route changed, moving into another sector's airspace. Controllers immediately began to move aircraft out of its path, and asked other aircraft in the vicinity to look for American 11.108

    At 8:24:38, the following transmission came from American 11:

    American 11: We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport.
    The controller only heard something unintelligible; he did not hear the specific words "we have some planes." The next transmission came seconds later:

    American 11: Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet.109
    The controller told us that he then knew it was a hijacking. He alerted his supervisor, who assigned another controller to assist him. He redoubled his efforts to ascertain the flight's altitude. Because the controller didn't understand the initial transmission, the manager of Boston Center instructed his quality assurance specialist to "pull the tape" of the radio transmission, listen to it closely, and report back.110

    Between 8:25 and 8:32, in accordance with the FAA protocol, Boston Center managers started notifying their chain of command that American 11 had been hijacked. At 8:28, Boston Center called the Command Center in Herndon to advise that it believed American 11 had been hijacked and was heading toward New York Center's airspace.

    By this time, American 11 had taken a dramatic turn to the south. At 8:32, the Command Center passed word of a possible hijacking to the Operations Center at FAA headquarters. The duty officer replied that security personnel at headquarters had just begun discussing the apparent hijack on a conference call with the New England regional office. FAA headquarters began to follow the hijack protocol but did not contact the NMCC to request a fighter escort.111

    The Herndon Command Center immediately established a teleconference between Boston, New York, and Cleveland Centers so that Boston Center could help the others understand what was happening.112

    At 8:34, the Boston Center controller received a third transmission from American 11:

    American 11: Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves.113
    In the succeeding minutes, controllers were attempting to ascertain the altitude of the southbound flight.114

    Military Notification and Response. Boston Center did not follow the protocol in seeking military assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out. At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military-at any level-that American 11 had been hijacked:115

    FAA: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
    NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?

    FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.116

    NEADS ordered to battle stations the two F-15 alert aircraft at Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts, 153 miles away from New York City. The air defense of America began with this call.117

    At NEADS, the report of the hijacking was relayed immediately to Battle Commander Colonel Robert Marr. After ordering the Otis fighters to battle stations, Colonel Marr phoned Major General Larry Arnold, commanding general of the First Air Force and NORAD's Continental Region. Marr sought authorization to scramble the Otis fighters. General Arnold later recalled instructing Marr to "go ahead and scramble them, and we'll get authorities later." General Arnold then called NORAD headquarters to report.118

    F-15 fighters were scrambled at 8:46 from Otis Air Force Base. But NEADS did not know where to send the alert fighter aircraft, and the officer directing the fighters pressed for more information: "I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination." Because the hijackers had turned off the plane's transponder, NEADS personnel spent the next minutes searching their radar scopes for the primary radar return. American 11 struck the North Tower at 8:46. Shortly after 8:50, while NEADS personnel were still trying to locate the flight, word reached them that a plane had hit the World Trade Center.119

    Radar data show the Otis fighters were airborne at 8:53. Lacking a target, they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. To avoid New York area air traffic and uncertain about what to do, the fighters were brought down to military airspace to "hold as needed. "From 9:09 to 9:13, the Otis fighters stayed in this holding pattern.120

    In summary, NEADS received notice of the hijacking nine minutes before it struck the North Tower. That nine minutes' notice before impact was the most the military would receive of any of the four hijackings.121

    United Airlines Flight 175 FAA Awareness. One of the last transmissions from United Airlines Flight 175 is, in retrospect, chilling. By 8:40, controllers at the FAA's New York Center were seeking information on American 11. At approximately 8:42, shortly after entering New York Center's airspace, the pilot of United 175 broke in with the following transmission:

    UAL 175: New York UAL 175 heavy.
    FAA: UAL 175 go ahead.

    UAL 175:Yeah.We figured we'd wait to go to your center.Ah, we hearda suspicious transmission on our departure out of Boston, ah, with someone, ah, it sounded like someone keyed the mikes and said ah everyone ah stay in your seats.

    FAA: Oh, okay. I'll pass that along over here.122

    Minutes later, United 175 turned southwest without clearance from air traffic control. At 8:47, seconds after the impact of American 11, United 175's transponder code changed, and then changed again. These changes were not noticed for several minutes, however, because the same New York Center controller was assigned to both American 11 and United 175.The controller knew American 11 was hijacked; he was focused on searching for it after the aircraft disappeared at 8:46.123

    At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

    Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We're watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they've told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that's all the information they have right now.124
    The New York Center controller and manager were unaware that American 11 had already crashed.

    At 8:51, the controller noticed the transponder change from United 175 and tried to contact the aircraft. There was no response. Beginning at 8:52, the controller made repeated attempts to reach the crew of United 175. Still no response. The controller checked his radio equipment and contacted another controller at 8:53, saying that "we may have a hijack" and that he could not find the aircraft.125

    Another commercial aircraft in the vicinity then radioed in with "reports over the radio of a commuter plane hitting the World Trade Center." The controller spent the next several minutes handing off the other flights on his scope to other controllers and moving aircraft out of the way of the unidentified aircraft (believed to be United 175) as it moved southwest and then turned northeast toward New York City.126

    At about 8:55, the controller in charge notified a New York Center manager that she believed United 175 had also been hijacked. The manager tried to notify the regional managers and was told that they were discussing a hijacked aircraft (presumably American 11) and refused to be disturbed. At 8:58, the New York Center controller searching for United 175 told another New York controller "we might have a hijack over here, two of them."127

    Between 9:01 and 9:02, a manager from New York Center told the Command Center in Herndon:

    Manager, New York Center: We have several situations going on here. It's escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us.. . . We're, we're involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here.128
    The "other aircraft" referred to by New York Center was United 175. Evidence indicates that this conversation was the only notice received by either FAA headquarters or the Herndon Command Center prior to the second crash that there had been a second hijacking.

    While the Command Center was told about this "other aircraft" at 9:01, New York Center contacted New York terminal approach control and asked for help in locating United 175.

    Terminal: I got somebody who keeps coasting but it looks like he's going into one of the small airports down there.
    Center: Hold on a second. I'm trying to bring him up here and get you-There he is right there. Hold on.

    Terminal: Got him just out of 9,500-9,000 now.

    Center: Do you know who he is?

    Terminal: We're just, we just we don't know who he is.We're just picking him up now.

    Center (at 9:02): Alright. Heads up man, it looks like another one coming in.129

    The controllers observed the plane in a rapid descent; the radar data terminated over Lower Manhattan. At 9:03, United 175 crashed into the South Tower.130

    Meanwhile, a manager from Boston Center reported that they had deciphered what they had heard in one of the first hijacker transmissions from American 11:

    Boston Center: Hey . . . you still there?
    New England Region:Yes, I am.

    Boston Center: . . . as far as the tape, Bobby seemed to think the guy said that "we have planes." Now, I don't know if it was because it was the accent, or if there's more than one, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna reconfirm that for you, and I'll get back to you real quick. Okay?

    New England Region: Appreciate it.

    Unidentified Female Voice: They have what?

    Boston Center: Planes, as in plural.

    Boston Center: It sounds like, we're talking to New York, that there's another one aimed at the World Trade Center.

    New England Region: There's another aircraft?

    Boston Center: A second one just hit the Trade Center.

    New England Region: Okay. Yeah, we gotta get-we gotta alert the military real quick on this.131

    Boston Center immediately advised the New England Region that it was going to stop all departures at airports under its control. At 9:05, Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." At the same time, NewYork Center declared "ATC zero"-meaning that aircraft were not permitted to depart from, arrive at, or travel through New York Center's airspace until further notice.132

    Within minutes of the second impact, Boston Center instructed its controllers to inform all aircraft in its airspace of the events in New York and to advise aircraft to heighten cockpit security. Boston Center asked the Herndon Command Center to issue a similar cockpit security alert nationwide. We have found no evidence to suggest that the Command Center acted on this request or issued any type of cockpit security alert.133

    Military Notification and Response. The first indication that the NORAD air defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03.The notice came at about the time the plane was hitting the South Tower.134

    By 9:08, the mission crew commander at NEADS learned of the second explosion at the World Trade Center and decided against holding the fighters in military airspace away from Manhattan:

    Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: This is what I foresee that we probably need to do. We need to talk to FAA. We need to tell 'em if this stuff is gonna keep on going, we need to take those fighters, put 'em over Manhattan. That's best thing, that's the best play right now. So coordinate with the FAA. Tell 'em if there's more out there, which we don't know, let's get 'em over Manhattan. At least we got some kind of play.135
    The FAA cleared the airspace. Radar data show that at 9:13, when the Otis fighters were about 115 miles away from the city, the fighters exited their holding pattern and set a course direct for Manhattan. They arrived at 9:25 and established a combat air patrol (CAP) over the city.136

    Because the Otis fighters had expended a great deal of fuel in flying first to military airspace and then to New York, the battle commanders were concerned about refueling. NEADS considered scrambling alert fighters from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to New York, to provide backup. The Langley fighters were placed on battle stations at 9:09.137 NORAD had no indication that any other plane had been hijacked.

    American Airlines Flight 77
    FAA Awareness. American 77 began deviating from its flight plan at 8:54, with a slight turn toward the south. Two minutes later, it disappeared completely from radar at Indianapolis Center, which was controlling the flight.138

    The controller tracking American 77 told us he noticed the aircraft turning to the southwest, and then saw the data disappear. The controller looked for primary radar returns. He searched along the plane's projected flight path and the airspace to the southwest where it had started to turn. No primary targets appeared. He tried the radios, first calling the aircraft directly, then the air-line. Again there was nothing. At this point, the Indianapolis controller had no knowledge of the situation in New York. He did not know that other aircraft had been hijacked. He believed American 77 had experienced serious electrical or mechanical failure, or both, and was gone.139

    Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed. At 9:08, Indianapolis Center asked Air Force Search and Rescue at Langley Air Force Base to look for a downed aircraft. The center also contacted the West Virginia State Police and asked whether any reports of a downed aircraft had been received. At 9:09, it reported the loss of contact to the FAA regional center, which passed this information to FAA headquarters at 9:24.140

    By 9:20, Indianapolis Center learned that there were other hijacked aircraft, and began to doubt its initial assumption that American 77 had crashed. A discussion of this concern between the manager at Indianapolis and the Command Center in Herndon prompted it to notify some FAA field facilities that American 77 was lost. By 9:21, the Command Center, some FAA field facilities, and American Airlines had started to search for American 77.They feared it had been hijacked. At 9:25, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters of the situation.141

    The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate this issue further. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05, this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers at Indianapolis Center.142 The reasons are technical, arising from the way the software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage where American 77 was flying.

    According to the radar reconstruction, American 77 reemerged as a primary target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known posi-tion. The target remained in Indianapolis Center's airspace for another six minutes, then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center's airspace at 9:10.As Indianapolis Center continued searching for the aircraft, two managers and the controller responsible for American 77 looked to the west and southwest along the flight's projected path, not east-where the aircraft was now heading. Managers did not instruct other controllers at Indianapolis Center to turn on their primary radar coverage to join in the search for American 77.143

    In sum, Indianapolis Center never saw Flight 77 turn around. By the time it reappeared in primary radar coverage, controllers had either stopped looking for the aircraft because they thought it had crashed or were looking toward the west. Although the Command Center learned Flight 77 was missing, neither it nor FAA headquarters issued an all points bulletin to surrounding centers to search for primary radar targets. American 77 traveled undetected for 36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C.144

    By 9:25, FAA's Herndon Command Center and FAA headquarters knew two aircraft had crashed into the World Trade Center. They knew American 77 was lost. At least some FAA officials in Boston Center and the New England Region knew that a hijacker on board American 11 had said "we have some planes." Concerns over the safety of other aircraft began to mount. A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one at 9:25.145

    The Command Center kept looking for American 77. At 9:21, it advised the Dulles terminal control facility, and Dulles urged its controllers to look for primary targets. At 9:32, they found one. Several of the Dulles controllers "observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed" and notified Reagan National Airport. FAA personnel at both Reagan National and Dulles airports notified the Secret Service. The aircraft's identity or type was unknown.146

    Reagan National controllers then vectored an unarmed National Guard C130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757, attempted to follow its path, and at 9:38, seconds after impact, reported to the control tower: "looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon sir."147

    Military Notification and Response. NORAD heard nothing about the search for American 77. Instead, the NEADS air defenders heard renewed reports about a plane that no longer existed: American 11.
    At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA:

    FAA: Military, Boston Center. I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it's on its way towards-heading towards Washington.
    NEADS: Okay. American 11 is still in the air?

    FAA: Yes.

    NEADS: On its way towards Washington?

    FAA: That was another-it was evidently another aircraft that hit the tower. That's the latest report we have.

    NEADS: Okay.

    FAA: I'm going to try to confirm an ID for you, but I would assume he's somewhere over, uh, either New Jersey or somewhere further south.

    NEADS: Okay. So American 11 isn't the hijack at all then, right?

    FAA: No, he is a hijack.

    NEADS: He-American 11 is a hijack?

    FAA: Yes.

    NEADS: And he's heading into Washington?

    FAA: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.148

    The mention of a "third aircraft" was not a reference to American 77.There was confusion at that moment in the FAA. Two planes had struck the World Trade Center, and Boston Center had heard from FAA headquarters in Washington that American 11 was still airborne. We have been unable to identify the source of this mistaken FAA information.

    The NEADS technician who took this call from the FAA immediately passed the word to the mission crew commander, who reported to the NEADS battle commander:

    Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: Okay, uh, American Airlines is still airborne. Eleven, the first guy, he's heading towards Washington. Okay? I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I'm gonna take the fighters from Otis, try to chase this guy down if I can find him.149
    After consulting with NEADS command, the crew commander issued the order at 9:23:"Okay . . . scramble Langley. Head them towards the Washington area.. . . [I]f they're there then we'll run on them.. . .These guys are smart." That order was processed and transmitted to Langley Air Force Base at 9:24. Radar data show the Langley fighters airborne at 9:30. NEADS decided to keep the Otis fighters over New York. The heading of the Langley fighters was adjusted to send them to the Baltimore area. The mission crew commander explained to us that the purpose was to position the Langley fighters between the reported southbound American 11 and the nation's capital.150

    At the suggestion of the Boston Center's military liaison, NEADS contacted the FAA's Washington Center to ask about American 11. In the course of the conversation, a Washington Center manager informed NEADS: "We're looking-we also lost American 77."The time was 9:34.151This was the first notice to the military that American 77 was missing, and it had come by chance. If NEADS had not placed that call, the NEADS air defenders would have received no information whatsoever that the flight was even missing, although the FAA had been searching for it. No one at FAA headquarters ever asked for military assistance with American 77.

    At 9:36, the FAA's Boston Center called NEADS and relayed the discovery about an unidentified aircraft closing in on Washington: "Latest report. Aircraft VFR [visual flight rules] six miles southeast of the White House. . . . Six, southwest. Six, southwest of the White House, deviating away." This startling news prompted the mission crew commander at NEADS to take immediate control of the airspace to clear a flight path for the Langley fighters: "Okay, we're going to turn it . . . crank it up. . . . Run them to the White House." He then discovered, to his surprise, that the Langley fighters were not headed north toward the Baltimore area as instructed, but east over the ocean. "I don't care how many windows you break," he said. "Damn it.. . . Okay. Push them back."152

    The Langley fighters were heading east, not north, for three reasons. First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target or the target's location. Second, a "generic" flight plan-prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly-incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go "090 for 60" superseded the original scramble order.153

    After the 9:36 call to NEADS about the unidentified aircraft a few miles from the White House, the Langley fighters were ordered to Washington, D.C. Controllers at NEADS located an unknown primary radar track, but "it kind of faded" over Washington. The time was 9:38.The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46.The Langley fighters were about 150 miles away.154

    Right after the Pentagon was hit, NEADS learned of another possible hijacked aircraft. It was an aircraft that in fact had not been hijacked at all. After the second World Trade Center crash, Boston Center managers recognized that both aircraft were transcontinental 767 jetliners that had departed Logan Airport. Remembering the "we have some planes" remark, Boston Center guessed that Delta 1989 might also be hijacked. Boston Center called NEADS at 9:41 and identified Delta 1989, a 767 jet that had left Logan Airport for Las Vegas, as a possible hijack. NEADS warned the FAA's Cleveland Center to watch Delta 1989.The Command Center and FAA headquarters watched it too. During the course of the morning, there were multiple erroneous reports of hijacked aircraft. The report of American 11 heading south was the first; Delta 1989 was the second.155

    NEADS never lost track of Delta 1989, and even ordered fighter aircraft from Ohio and Michigan to intercept it. The flight never turned off its transponder. NEADS soon learned that the aircraft was not hijacked, and tracked Delta 1989 as it reversed course over Toledo, headed east, and landed in Cleveland.156 But another aircraft was heading toward Washington, an aircraft about which NORAD had heard nothing: United 93.

    United Airlines Flight 93
    FAA Awareness. At 9:27, after having been in the air for 45 minutes, United 93 acknowledged a transmission from the Cleveland Center controller. This was the last normal contact the FAA had with the flight.157

    Less than a minute later, the Cleveland controller and the pilots of aircraft in the vicinity heard "a radio transmission of unintelligible sounds of possible screaming or a struggle from an unknown origin."158

    The controller responded, seconds later: "Somebody call Cleveland? "This was followed by a second radio transmission, with sounds of screaming. The Cleveland Center controllers began to try to identify the possible source of the transmissions, and noticed that United 93 had descended some 700 feet. The controller attempted again to raise United 93 several times, with no response. At 9:30, the controller began to poll the other flights on his frequency to determine if they had heard the screaming; several said they had.159

    At 9:32, a third radio transmission came over the frequency: "Keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb on board." The controller understood, but chose to respond: "Calling Cleveland Center, you're unreadable. Say again, slowly." He notified his supervisor, who passed the notice up the chain of command. By 9:34, word of the hijacking had reached FAA headquarters.160

    FAA headquarters had by this time established an open line of communication with the Command Center at Herndon and instructed it to poll all its centers about suspect aircraft. The Command Center executed the request and, a minute later, Cleveland Center reported that "United 93 may have a bomb on board. "At 9:34, the Command Center relayed the information concerning United 93 to FAA headquarters. At approximately 9:36, Cleveland advised the Command Center that it was still tracking United 93 and specifically inquired whether someone had requested the military to launch fighter aircraft to intercept the aircraft. Cleveland even told the Command Center it was prepared to contact a nearby military base to make the request. The Command Center told Cleveland that FAA personnel well above them in the chain of command had to make the decision to seek military assistance and were working on the issue.161

    Between 9:34 and 9:38, the Cleveland controller observed United 93 climbing to 40,700 feet and immediately moved several aircraft out its way. The controller continued to try to contact United 93, and asked whether the pilot could confirm that he had been hijacked.162 There was no response.

    Then, at 9:39, a fourth radio transmission was heard from United 93:

    Ziad Jarrah: Uh, this is the captain. Would like you all to remain seated. There is a bomb on board and are going back to the airport, and to have our demands [unintelligible]. Please remain quiet.
    The controller responded: "United 93, understand you have a bomb on board. Go ahead." The flight did not respond.163

    From 9:34 to 10:08, a Command Center facility manager provided frequent updates to Acting Deputy Administrator Monte Belger and other executives at FAA headquarters as United 93 headed toward Washington, D.C. At 9:41, Cleveland Center lost United 93's transponder signal. The controller located it on primary radar, matched its position with visual sightings from other aircraft, and tracked the flight as it turned east, then south.164

    At 9:42, the Command Center learned from news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon. The Command Center's national operations manager, Ben Sliney, ordered all FAA facilities to instruct all aircraft to land at the nearest airport. This was an unprecedented order. The air traffic control system handled it with great skill, as about 4,500 commercial and general aviation aircraft soon landed without incident.165

    At 9:46 the Command Center updated FAA headquarters that United 93 was now "twenty-nine minutes out of Washington, D.C."

    At 9:49, 13 minutes after Cleveland Center had asked about getting military help, the Command Center suggested that someone at headquarters should decide whether to request military assistance:

    FAA Headquarters: They're pulling Jeff away to go talk about United 93.
    Command Center: Uh, do we want to think, uh, about scrambling aircraft?

    FAA Headquarters: Oh, God, I don't know.

    Command Center: Uh, that's a decision somebody's gonna have to make probably in the next ten minutes.

    FAA Headquarters: Uh, ya know everybody just left the room.166

    At 9:53, FAA headquarters informed the Command Center that the deputy director for air traffic services was talking to Monte Belger about scrambling aircraft. Then the Command Center informed headquarters that controllers had lost track of United 93 over the Pittsburgh area. Within seconds, the Command Center received a visual report from another aircraft, and informed headquarters that the aircraft was 20 miles northwest of Johnstown. United 93 was spotted by another aircraft, and, at 10:01, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters that one of the aircraft had seen United 93 "waving his wings." The aircraft had witnessed the hijackers' efforts to defeat the passengers' counterattack.167

    United 93 crashed in Pennsylvania at 10:03:11, 125 miles from Washington, D.C. The precise crash time has been the subject of some dispute. The 10:03:11 impact time is supported by previous National Transportation Safety Board analysis and by evidence from the Commission staff's analysis of radar, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, infrared satellite data, and air traffic control transmissions.168

    http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  4. #94

    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinken View Post
    It took hours to ground all the planes. they don't just magically land once the order to ground air traffic gets issued. Remember the second attack was at 9:03 am and the attack on the Pentagon was at 9:37. Before the second attack everyone thought it was isolated incident. so you have 34 minutes between the two attacks not an hour like you said. That is not enough to ground any air traffic, or identify other planes that have been highjacked to shoot down, then get presidential approval and shoot it down.
    You can't go by when the planes hit the towers. It all starts when the planes deviate from their flightpath, lose radio contact, turn off their transponders. It sends immediate redflags to the FAA. After Payne Stewart's plane lost pressure and everyone passed out, the plane lost radio contact with the FAA and deviated from its planned flightpath. It took 23 minutes for fighter jets to scramble and intercept the plane. People, who question the official story of why we couldn't intercept these planes on 9-11, want to know why there are drastic differences in response times between these two similar events and the answers offered up are ridiculous at best and insulting at worst. As Tom said:
    conspiracy theorists try to drag everything back to the level of common sense
    Last edited by Wheres the beef?; 03-16-2009 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #95

    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    NORAD Mission and Structure. NORAD is a binational command established in 1958 between the United States and Canada. Its mission was, and is, to defend the airspace of North America and protect the continent. That mission does not distinguish between internal and external threats; but because NORAD was created to counter the Soviet threat, it came to define its job as defending against external attacks.96
    ...........
    ....
    ....................
    .........
    http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm
    TL;DR

  6. #96
    Coachella Junkie Monklish's Avatar
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    I'm saying in normal operating procedure there should have been some fucking jets either following that plane by that point OR patrolling Pentagon/House Of Congress air space. There was neither.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Fuck you and fuck Haiti.

  7. #97
    Coachella Junkie Blinken's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by kingsblend420 View Post
    You can't go by when the planes hit the towers. It all starts when the planes deviate from their flightpath, lose radio contact, turn off their transponders. It sends immediate redflags to the FAA. After Payne Stewart's plane lost pressure and everyone passed out, the plane lost radio contact with the FAA and deviated from its planned flightpath. It took 23 minutes for fighter jets to scramble and intercept the plane. People, who question the official story of why we couldn't intercept these planes on 9-11, want to know why there are drastic differences in response times between these two similar events and the answers offered up are ridiculous at best and insulting at worst. As Tom said:
    As Tom pointed out they didn't know what they were dealing with until the first plane hit the towers. I was wrong about my accident statement, that was only the media that thought that not the FAA. We got caught with our pants down and were not prepared in any way for the attacks. Tom's long post that you didn't read explains why they were not intercepted, but you didn't care to read it.

  8. #98
    Coachella Junkie Monklish's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, wait, did you see what the explanation was?

    The Langley fighters were heading east, not north, for three reasons. First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target or the target's location. Second, a "generic" flight plan-prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly-incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go "090 for 60" superseded the original scramble order.153

    After the 9:36 call to NEADS about the unidentified aircraft a few miles from the White House, the Langley fighters were ordered to Washington, D.C. Controllers at NEADS located an unknown primary radar track, but "it kind of faded" over Washington. The time was 9:38.The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46. The Langley fighters were about 150 miles away.
    Are you fucking kidding me? You're telling me the country was under attack by commercial airplanes and they accidentally ordered ALL the fucking fighter jets to flying due east across the fucking ocean for 60 minutes? And NOBODY caught this while they were, oh I dunno, tracking the plane headed for D.C.? Srsly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Fuck you and fuck Haiti.

  9. #99
    Coachella Junkie Blinken's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    I'm sorry, wait, did you see what the explanation was?



    Are you fucking kidding me? You're telling me the country was under attack by commercial airplanes and they accidentally ordered ALL the fucking fighter jets to flying due east across the fucking ocean for 60 minutes? And NOBODY caught this while they were, oh I dunno, tracking the plane headed for D.C.? Srsly?
    It was probably a order that was in place for an outside attack, during the Cold War era, and the person issueing orders that morning followed the manual for scrambling fighter jets. Is it really that hard to believe that out government and first responders could fuck up this badly?
    Last edited by Blinken; 03-16-2009 at 04:38 PM.

  10. #100
    Coachella Junkie Alchemy's Avatar
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    How do the mole men figure into all of this?
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    I try to be politically pc more than most here: As a dude, anyone who could put a shark up a gals pc body, is pretty creepy, different and interesting. Just saying big time ..... cr****

  11. #101
    man-homie obzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    theres no way it was rigged to explode either-it was a matter of how hot those fires got and how much jet fuel was burning.

    in the fields where they took the remnants of the fallen towers theres I-beams that are bent so clean-they completely folded without any cracks.

  12. #102
    Coachella Junkie Monklish's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinken View Post
    It was probably a order that was in place for an outside attack, during the Cold War era, and the person issueing orders that morning followed the manual for scrambling fighter jets. Is it really that hard to believe that out government and first responders could fuck up this badly?
    It's a little bit hard to believe that in the midst of all this they not only followed an antiquated procedural order which for some reason was written to scramble all jets as far the fuck AWAY from the stuff they're supposed to protect as possible and that they didn't catch it for an hour. Yes. That is hard to fucking believe. We're not talking about the government here, we're talking about basic fundamentals of fucking military disaster strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Fuck you and fuck Haiti.

  13. #103
    Member BKsaysAction!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
    How do the mole men figure into all of this?
    Theres the explanation for tower 7, that or ninja turtles.

  14. #104
    Coachella Junkie Blinken's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    It's a little bit hard to believe that in the midst of all this they not only followed an antiquated procedural order which for some reason was written to scramble all jets as far the fuck AWAY from the stuff they're supposed to protect as possible and that they didn't catch it for an hour. Yes. That is hard to fucking believe. We're not talking about the government here, we're talking about basic fundamentals of fucking military disaster strategy.
    which weren't in place, you see who well the military did in Iraq. You want to believe that they are all good at their jobs and make the right calls under pressure, if they don't then something larger must be at work. NORAD was the military definition of antiquated, they weren't getting funding and were the subject of numorous cut backs. I really doubt they had the cream of the military crop working at those alert statations.

  15. #105
    Member BKsaysAction!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinken View Post
    which weren't in place, you see who well the military did in Iraq. You want to believe that they are all good at their jobs and make the right calls under pressure, if they don't then something larger must be at work. NORAD was the military definition of antiquated, they weren't getting funding and were the subject of numorous cut backs. I really doubt they had the cream of the military crop working at those alert statations.
    We fucked up Iraq because after we liberated them we let riots go unwatched, we didn't secure important buildings, and we layed off thousands of soldiers who were in the bath party by force and wanted to help the rebuilding process.

    So we have thousands of out of work Iraqi ex soldiers pissed off because their country is in total chaos and they're not allowed to help so when the extremists show up to set up shop and offer these pissed off ex soldiers a chance to "get their country back" what do you think they do?

    You can thank ole Donny Rumsfeld for that one and 9/11 for carelessness.

  16. #106

    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by obzen View Post
    theres no way it was rigged to explode either-it was a matter of how hot those fires got and how much jet fuel was burning.

    in the fields where they took the remnants of the fallen towers theres I-beams that are bent so clean-they completely folded without any cracks.
    It was thermite.

  17. #107
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    this is terrible. why? why was this terrible thread made? silly politics
    Quote Originally Posted by EmberVega View Post
    You guys are mean. Sexy people are not meant to be smart.

    August 1 - Echo and the Bunnymen - Orpheum
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  18. #108
    Coachella Junkie frozen pilgrim's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    this is all retarded.

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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    true.

  20. #110
    Member OnlyNonStranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Dude! I totally heard we didn't even land on the moon!

  21. #111
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyNonStranger View Post
    Dude! I totally heard we didn't even land on the moon!
    Obviously you are not familiar with conspiracy theories, or else you would know...

    That's no moon...

    It's a space station:

    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    I try to be politically pc more than most here: As a dude, anyone who could put a shark up a gals pc body, is pretty creepy, different and interesting. Just saying big time ..... cr****

  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinken View Post
    which weren't in place, you see who well the military did in Iraq. You want to believe that they are all good at their jobs and make the right calls under pressure, if they don't then something larger must be at work. NORAD was the military definition of antiquated, they weren't getting funding and were the subject of numorous cut backs. I really doubt they had the cream of the military crop working at those alert statations.
    Dude, you're talking about basic procedures for controlling the air space over the fucking Pentagon. I'm sorry, I mean I think the military and the government are retarded and all, but I refuse to believe that the nearest air force base doesn't have SET IN FUCKING STONE guidelines that when there is a national security scare--ESPECIALLY A THREAT FROM FUCKING AIRCRAFT--that jet fighters are responsible with protecting the air space over D.C.

    We monitor and patrol the air space over other countries. You can't tell me that if they have heard hijackers have taken two airplanes confirmed to have been used as terrorist weapons in attacks against two highly populated national monuments (monuments to capitalism, America's true religion) and that two-plus other airliners have diverted from course and discontinued radio contact and are suspected of being hijacked--ONE OF WHICH MIGHT BE HEADED TOWARDS D.C.--that there is a fucking chance the proper air force protocol response is for those jets to all take off and fly straight east over the fucking ocean to leave D.C. completely unprotected.

    I'M SORRY. BUT THAT IS PATENTLY FUCKING RIDICULOUS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Fuck you and fuck Haiti.

  23. #113
    Coachella Junkie Mr. Dylanja's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahrain View Post
    Will somebody trade their bow ticket for my stern ticket? I have this thing where I get seasick if I'm on the wrong side of the engine room, and it works better with my schedule to be on the front end of the changing time zone.

  24. #114

    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    I bet you're NOT sorry.

  25. #115
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me? You're telling me the country was under attack by commercial airplanes and they accidentally ordered ALL the fucking fighter jets to flying due east across the fucking ocean for 60 minutes? And NOBODY caught this while they were, oh I dunno, tracking the plane headed for D.C.? Srsly?
    60 miles, not minutes. but still, it makes no sense.

    I think what the long narrative I posted shows is that it took a very long time for people in charge to even understand we were "under attack by commercial airplanes". NORAD learned about the Pentagon strike on the news. It was a scenario the FAA and the defense dept didn't anticipate, didn't plan for, and hence didn't train anyone for. Read the excerpt closely and you'll even see that the FAA (Boston Unit) called an AF base that was closed. Significant clusterfuck. But by the time of the last fight, UA 93, some people had figured it out and so it suffered a "passenger counterattack" and "crashed". (or, it was shot down).
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  26. #116
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    ^this is true.

    ^
    (i cant believe i typed that)

  27. #117
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    60 miles, not minutes. but still, it makes no sense.

    I think what the long narrative I posted shows is that it took a very long time for people in charge to even understand we were "under attack by commercial airplanes". NORAD learned about the Pentagon strike on the news. It was a scenario the FAA and the defense dept didn't anticipate, didn't plan for, and hence didn't train anyone for. Read the excerpt closely and you'll even see that the FAA (Boston Unit) called an AF base that was closed. Significant clusterfuck. But by the time of the last fight, UA 93, some people had figured it out and so it suffered a "passenger counterattack" and "crashed". (or, it was shot down).
    I admit, I'm not that willing to read the whole transcript, and fact is I'd probably never trust it entirely. I don't entirely believe any of the pieces of record regarding this matter are being repeated entirely in truth. Given the whole story of that silly excuse for Pearl Harbor (Oh, well even though there was a World War going on, we just figured the radar was broken. That's why we didn't react) it just feels like typical government coverup bullshit.

    I dunno, I guess it's become hard by this point to think of our military or government emergency systems as being remotely efficient. But I just remember how my grandfather used to talk about all the scenarios and actions they had in place--had already had in place for several years--specifically just to deal with dozens of different scenarios in response to the threat of nuclear attack. How depending on the variaton of attack methods they had a given set of priorities and responses to each possible inbound attack and on and on... and it just feels incredibly hard for me to believe that ANY of these scenarios dictate for the protective air force squadron to fly ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING MILES OFF-SHORE away from the crucial national security targets they were scrambled to protect.

    No matter what else you want to argue, by the point those fighters are scrambled their job was to patrol air space. They knew something was suspect, they weren't sure which planes were legitimate threats yet and which weren't. But weren't fucking none of them hanging out 150 FUCKING MILES over the Atlantic.

    Look, I think almost all the conspiracy theorists are fags too. I really do. It's so silly. But when something sounds just too dubious for my brain to possibly tolerate having to reconcile... I can't. I just can't.

    My mind, in all honestly, will not allow me to accept this. It would be more retarded than anything I could fathom if this were the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    Fuck you and fuck Haiti.

  28. #118

    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    I'm still not understanding what happened to the Israeli spies that were connected to 9-11, rounded up, and deported a week or so after. Fox News, of all people, reported on the story then it suddenly disappeared off their website.



    it goes on and on..............
    Last edited by Wheres the beef?; 03-16-2009 at 09:10 PM.

  29. #119
    Coachella Junkie Blinken's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    Quote Originally Posted by Monklish View Post
    I admit, I'm not that willing to read the whole transcript, and fact is I'd probably never trust it entirely. I don't entirely believe any of the pieces of record regarding this matter are being repeated entirely in truth. Given the whole story of that silly excuse for Pearl Harbor (Oh, well even though there was a World War going on, we just figured the radar was broken. That's why we didn't react) it just feels like typical government coverup bullshit.

    I dunno, I guess it's become hard by this point to think of our military or government emergency systems as being remotely efficient. But I just remember how my grandfather used to talk about all the scenarios and actions they had in place--had already had in place for several years--specifically just to deal with dozens of different scenarios in response to the threat of nuclear attack. How depending on the variaton of attack methods they had a given set of priorities and responses to each possible inbound attack and on and on... and it just feels incredibly hard for me to believe that ANY of these scenarios dictate for the protective air force squadron to fly ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING MILES OFF-SHORE away from the crucial national security targets they were scrambled to protect.

    No matter what else you want to argue, by the point those fighters are scrambled their job was to patrol air space. They knew something was suspect, they weren't sure which planes were legitimate threats yet and which weren't. But weren't fucking none of them hanging out 150 FUCKING MILES over the Atlantic.

    Look, I think almost all the conspiracy theorists are fags too. I really do. It's so silly. But when something sounds just too dubious for my brain to possibly tolerate having to reconcile... I can't. I just can't.

    My mind, in all honestly, will not allow me to accept this. It would be more retarded than anything I could fathom if this were the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    The Langley fighters were heading east, not north, for three reasons. First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target or the target's location. Second, a "generic" flight plan-prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly-incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go "090 for 60" superseded the original scramble order.153
    It was 60 miles, and 150 away from DC not 150 miles off shore. They only had four fighters on alert for the East Coast,so the ones from New York had to fly down to DC, after going 60 miles off shore.

    The thing is that they didn't seriously expect this kind of attack, these systems were developed during the Cold War when we had the kind protections in place that your grandfather was talking about. Since the wall fell we became more and more complacent in protecting ourselves, and still believed that any attack would come from outside the US. According to the report almost all of the drills and theories involved planes from abroad being highjacked and then taken into the US. that is why they might have had the 90 for 60 order on the books. It really was a clusterfuck and the military just wasn't ready for that type of attack. You are right it is fucking stupid, but that doesn't make it anyless true.

  30. #120
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    Default Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories

    me @ this thread:

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