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Thread: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

  1. #8701
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    It doesn't have anything to do with our "best athletes" playing other sports. It has more to do with the environment they grow up in, and how competitive in soccer it is. I was in Brazil once and watched a group of kids play soccer. They must've been, 10 years old at the most, and they were pulling off set pieces and plays and shit. I imagine playing the game while growing up in America is definitely not as engaging as playing in other countries.

  2. #8702
    old school unit300021's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by betao View Post
    It doesn't have anything to do with our "best athletes" playing other sports. It has more to do with the environment they grow up in, and how competitive in soccer it is. I was in Brazil once and watched a group of kids play soccer. They must've been, 10 years old at the most, and they were pulling off set pieces and plays and shit. I imagine playing the game while growing up in America is definitely not as engaging as playing in other countries.
    Basically just a continuation of what I meant. Young athletes see the real money being in other sports besides soccer, well here in the US at least. Until soccer players here start making big money it will always be a second class sport here.
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  3. #8703

    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by betao View Post
    It doesn't have anything to do with our "best athletes" playing other sports. It has more to do with the environment they grow up in, and how competitive in soccer it is. I was in Brazil once and watched a group of kids play soccer. They must've been, 10 years old at the most, and they were pulling off set pieces and plays and shit. I imagine playing the game while growing up in America is definitely not as engaging as playing in other countries.
    Probably why practically half of our team grew up in Germany.

  4. #8704
    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by betao View Post
    It doesn't have anything to do with our "best athletes" playing other sports. It has more to do with the environment they grow up in, and how competitive in soccer it is. I was in Brazil once and watched a group of kids play soccer. They must've been, 10 years old at the most, and they were pulling off set pieces and plays and shit. I imagine playing the game while growing up in America is definitely not as engaging as playing in other countries.
    That's not true. It's not the only factor but it's definitely an important part of our talent deficiency on the international level. I agree with you that our national culture is the primary reason we don't measure up with the elite nations in competition but there are several other factors at play as well. A former NCAA soccer player summed it up nicely on Reddit. If you look at the USA youth teams in international competition our youngsters compete at a very high level with up until around age 18, at which point a serious gap begins to form between the US and other soccer nations. A large part of that has to do with how college soccer has been established in this country. The NCAA has different rules than FIFA - coaches are allowed unlimited substitutions, so right off the bat we're teaching our most promising young soccer athletes to play a different game then the one being played internationally. Basically the kids run around at a full sprint and as soon as they're exhausted the coach can substitute him/her for a fresh player. The strategy is much different from FIFA rules in that the coach's rotation becomes a significant part of the game and the players never really learn to conserve energy and play a full 90 minutes. NCAA regulations also limit the amount of practice time for college players, so while top international prospects train year round our college players are limited to a handful of months.

    Our cultural attitude towards soccer also contributes heavily to our lack of talent. Soccer is generally regarded as a child's sport, and if you're an elite athlete at some point you will be encouraged to leave soccer in favor of more established American sports. Football, basketball, baseball - that's where the money is - both in terms of college scholarships and any potential payday at the professional level. Clint Dempsey makes $4.5 million per year and he's the highest paid MLS player in the country. That's backup QB money in the NFL, and one of the most important reasons why very few Americans grow up dreaming of a career in professional soccer. If that wasn't the case, would Lebron James be leading the US to multiple World Cup Championships? Probably not (maybe as a keeper), but it's pretty easy to imagine guys like Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Russell Wilson, Desean Jackson etc. being amazing soccer players if that was the sport they chose to compete in.

  5. #8705
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    I can agree with everything in the first paragraph - it's basically the same thing I said about the sport not being as competitive here than in other countries - and soccer players may not be the most highly paid athletes.

    But money isn't why people don't continue with soccer. It's simply liking another sport more. In America, you have the options of other sports like baseball and basketball, etc. You grow up with all of them around you. You've got more to pick from, so you've got more likelihood of finding something else you like. I know money influences alot of things, like especially which team you may play for, but I don't think it plays a big factor in which sport you decide to play. You simply play it because it's the one you like. If you can show me an example of someone who chose a sport based on $$ (like, the player actually explicitly said so), then I'd love to see it. Maybe a couple of people do make decisions like that. But I really believe that LeBron plays basketball because he likes it most, RG3 plays football because he likes it more, and Dempsey plays soccer because, yep, he likes it. The highly paid stars in the NBA and NFL are paid that money because they're good at what they do - and that's because they love doing what they do.

  6. #8706
    old school nosurprises12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Guys, the way college soccer is run, kids choosing soccer over other sports, earning potential in the MLS, etc. has really nothing to do with why US soccer hasn't taken that next step in competing at the top level of the sport. What this WC made abundantly clear is that most American players lack the technical (and to some extent tactical) skills which most top-level players have, and that's something which you simply have to start learning at a very young age. Just look at some of the most successful youth set-ups across the world and they all do many of the same types of things. It's quite a detailed report, but here's a very interesting write-up on the top academies in Europe which we'd do well to incorporate into our development system.

    American soccer players have always been praised for their physical abilities, so addressing the technical/tactical gap and instituting a single style of play (used at all levels of the National team) is what the revisions to youth development in the country have focused on. That's why we now have the Development Academy, as its goals are to centralize the immense talent pool in the country, and to shift the focus of the development of youth players from a couple practices and lots and lots of games to one which is essentially the opposite: lots of quality technical and tactical practice with top players and coaches, consistent "improvement assessment" from a group of highly qualified coaches, and fewer overall games but ones which are consistently against high level opponents.

    As for pay, MLS is a terrible point of comparison when you use leagues like MLB, NBA, and NFL, as you're not comparing apples to apples. These three American leagues are at the very top of the "world game," so you need to compare top earners of these sports to soccer players playing domestically in England or Spain or Germany. For example, last season Wayne Rooney signed a new contract and is paid 300,000 per week, which works out to $26.7M a year. Granted, it's not quite as big as some of the mega contracts which elite MLB, NBA, or NFL players make, but it's also certainly not close to the $4.5M you imply as the "high water mark" which discourages young American athletes to pursue a soccer. Also, a star American soccer player doesn't dream of joining an MLS team - they dream of clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester United, etc., teams which have a history of success at the very top and who compete regularly against the best players in the world.
    Last edited by nosurprises12; 07-03-2014 at 10:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto73 View Post
    I'd contribute to this discussion but I'm still busy reminiscing about the halcyon days of punk. You know, the mid-90s.

  7. #8707
    Member chbludevil's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    The USA v. Belgium game went about as well as it could have for a team pitting mostly MLS players against a team with mostly EPL players. For the MLS squad that is...

    I can still see Belgium winning the cup, if the US went out to the eventual cup winners, for me it would make the loss sting considerably less. Also poor Wondo, that dude isn't gonna sleep right for the rest of his life.
    Last edited by chbludevil; 07-03-2014 at 09:53 AM.

  8. #8708

    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    FIFA said in post-match discussion that he would have been ruled offside (even though he clearly wasn't). The goal wouldn't have counted, which probably would have made it that much worse for him and American fans.

  9. #8709
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nosurprises12 View Post
    As for pay, MLS is a terrible point of comparison when you use leagues like MLB, NBA, and NFL, as you're not comparing apples to apples. These three American leagues are at the very top of the "world game," so you need to compare top earners of these sports to soccer players playing domestically in England or Spain or Germany. For example, last season Wayne Rooney signed a new contract and is paid 300,000 per week, which works out to $26.7M a year. Granted, it's not quite as big as some of the mega contracts which elite MLB, NBA, or NFL players make, but it's also certainly not close to the $4.5M you imply as the "high water mark" which discourages young American athletes to pursue a soccer. Also, a star American soccer player doesn't dream of joining an MLS team - they dream of clubs like Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester United, etc., teams which have a history of success at the very top and who compete regularly against the best players in the world.
    You completely missed what I was saying. Of course the top earners in the Premiere league make more than MLS players. The money those elite European players bring in is proportional to the level of interest in their respective countries, and soccer is the number one sport in all of the places you listed. When I say there's more money in other US sports, I'm not just talking about the salaries of professional athletes. I'm talking about tax dollars at the highschool level, scholarships at the college level, sponsors, boosters, etc. As a nation our investments are in other sports, both in terms of money and passion. How many young American soccer players do you know that skip school so they can go home and watch Wayne Rooney play for Manchester United? I mentioned Clint Dempsey's 4.5M as the "high water mark" for American soccer because he's one of the highest paid American players in the world. If you really want to compare apples to apples I believe that Tim Howard is our highest paid American playing overseas at $2.5 million/year. There are no professional European teams lining up to throw money at US players.

    You dismissed my comments about the way the college system is run and then stress the need for "instituting a single style of play (used at all levels of the National team)," which is exactly the point I made. It's a big problem that the NCAA hasn't adopted FIFA rules at the college level.
    Last edited by bobert; 07-03-2014 at 11:55 AM.

  10. #8710
    old school nosurprises12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    You're right, I did miss your point regarding the pay.

    In regards to the clarification you offered, increasing money to "highschool level, scholarships at the college level, sponsors, boosters" is not going make things better in terms of producing better soccer players in the US - by that point the chance to instill "foundational technical habits" in a player is lost, and that's what is holding American soccer back. Having played soccer competitively as an adolescent I know that scouts pay much closer attention to a player's performances with his/her traveling clubs or MLS academy team rather than the player's performances for a high school or college team, which is why there's no real push to improve those two levels at which the sport gets played at. Klinsmann was respectful about the established systems like high school and college, but you only need to look at where the changes have actually happened to see where the priority lies.

    It honestly feels as if you're trying to equate the traditional systems used to develop basketball, football, and baseball players in the US to the development of world class soccer players around the world, or to say "If high school and college soccer were funded as much as football or baseball America would produce better soccer players," and really that can't be done. Again, once a player reaches the level you claim requires more investment there's no way to adequately develop the skills needed to succeed at the very top - they have to be taught at a very young age, as they then become habits and the foundation for which more complex aspects of the sport can be taught. Again, this is why the complete overhaul to the US Soccer system focuses on club and MLS academy teams - they get the promising players young, and with proper and consistent coaching (which the Development Academy focuses on) they learn those fundamentals.

    In terms of your final comment, "the NCAA adopting FIFA rules" will not make a noticeable difference in producing better players. Is it laughable that the NCAA follows its own rules while literally the rest of the world conforms to a single set? Of course. But, as I've already stressed, it's not going to matter if those changes are instituted, as that's not where the focus needs to be if the US wants to produce better players.

    Finally, when you say "How many young American soccer players do you know that skip school so they can go home and watch Wayne Rooney play for Manchester United?," you and I both aren't in a position to answer this question with any kind of authority. I can speak from my experiences, and I did, in fact, cut class during my junior year to watch the Champions League final between (ha!) Manchester United and Bayern Munich. Now, I'm sure that when you and I were kids my experiences were certainly the exception rather than the rule, but when it's been reported that "avid interest" in both MLS and soccer in general have been steadily increasing over the years it's not too hard to imagine that things are changing in terms of the sport's appeal. Granted, we're a long way off of kids dreaming of playing for the Columbus Crew like they do playing for the Lakers or the Yankees or the Steelers, but hopefully as MLS continues to grow and attract better players the profile of the league and attraction of the sport will increase as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto73 View Post
    I'd contribute to this discussion but I'm still busy reminiscing about the halcyon days of punk. You know, the mid-90s.

  11. #8711
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Oh noes!!!!!!!! Univision to end free streaming of World Cup games

    Starting with the Quarter-Finals, which kick off on July 4th, Univision is set to begin requiring a cable login (from a participating provider) to stream matches leading up to the Final -- something WatchESPN has done since the beginning of the tournament.
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto73 View Post
    I'd contribute to this discussion but I'm still busy reminiscing about the halcyon days of punk. You know, the mid-90s.

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  13. #8713
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bobert View Post
    the NCAA hasn't adopted FIFA rules at the college level.
    why is this? this doesn't make any sense. (not disputing your assertion, just questioning wtf the NCAA is thinking?)
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  14. #8714
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    why is this? this doesn't make any sense. (not disputing your assertion, just questioning wtf the NCAA is thinking?)
    I'm not sure. Having unlimited substitutions definitely gives the coaches a lot more control of the game so maybe that was the intent. A coach could rotate his entire roster into the game so maybe that's seen as a positive - more playing time for a greater number of players? I don't know. I'm not the least bit surprised that the NCAA thinks they know a better way than the rest of the world.

  15. #8715

    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Brazil looked better than they have all tournament.

  16. #8716
    old school nosurprises12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Neymar's out of the rest of the WC with a broken vertebrae. This is what happens when you get a shit ref who doesn't book players early when needed; he lost control of the game after 30 minutes and this is what happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto73 View Post
    I'd contribute to this discussion but I'm still busy reminiscing about the halcyon days of punk. You know, the mid-90s.

  17. #8717
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Seriously. The last half of that game was more of a fight than proper football*




    *though both teams did pull off some good plays. The Brazilian defense was onpoint, but Colombia put in a good effort.

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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    I don't know if Brazil can recover from this. And by "Brazil", I mean the country - not the soccer team.

  19. #8719
    old school nosurprises12's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Who knows, losing Neymar may galvanize the team/nation...or they could collapse spectacularly against Germany. Hard to say with this Brazil team!

    I thought Argentina did just enough today to beat Belgium, and that they looked more solid defensively than they have in the previous 4 games. Losing Di Maria, though, could very well prove to be a huge loss for their hopes as he's been their best player besides Messi.

    And what a surprise, Belgium go out meekly to the first good team they face.
    Quote Originally Posted by roberto73 View Post
    I'd contribute to this discussion but I'm still busy reminiscing about the halcyon days of punk. You know, the mid-90s.

  20. #8720
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Completely agree with nosurprises re: the red and Neymar's injury. If he policed the game appropriately, we wouldn't have had to witness such a staggered game and Neymar likely wouldn't have succumbed to his injury. I don't believe they'll be able to overcome Germany without Neymar and Silva.

    Argentina's back 4 did a superb job preventing Belgium from establishing any real chances. They played disciplined and clamped down. Excited for Netherlands/Costa Rica!
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    The Brazil game was such a classic, I'm thankful for the incompetent ref.

  22. #8722
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Belgium shots on goal versus the US: 26
    Belgium shots on goal versus Argentina: 1

    Anyone who thinks the US had a good world cup is just plain silly.

    Also, Belgians might be the goofiest people on earth.

  23. #8723
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Of course Belgians are goof-nuts, they are the result of when you cross Franco and Germanic peoples.
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    ^But they do have great beer. And, if you know where to get it when visiting, fantastic mussels.

    Back on topic, great match here for Robben and co. Costa Rica played great. Getting Netherlands to penalty kicks was a good strategy. Just didn't work out.
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    I'd like to see Germany v. Argentina in the finals. Cos, their jerseys are the best anyway. Oh, and it'd be a good match too.
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    apathetic about the jerseys, but i too would like to see the Argentines take on the Germans at Rio.

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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    FYI, ambivalence is the correct adjective.
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    AMBIVALENT bobert's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    The guy says he doesn't care about the jerseys. Why would you think he meant to say he was conflicted about the jerseys instead?

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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Also ambivalence is a noun.

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    Default Re: The Official Soccer, Football, Futbol, and Footie Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fikus222 View Post
    I'd like to see Germany v. Argentina in the finals.
    an all-fascist final would be a disaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
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