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Thread: The Bad Mood Thread

  1. #7591

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    You're basing your argument in on the rather tenuous assumption that experts saying certain people are beyond medical help have some kind of absolute basis for that conclusion. Bryan is operating on a much more proven assumption that psychiatry is a fairly young field with little to no absolutes and a lot of room for improvement. Hell, even when psychiatrists prescribe medications that work, they don't know why they work.
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  2. #7592
    Endearingly Dislikable RotationSlimWang's Avatar
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    I'm basing my argument on the fact that the psychiatric community has identified a particular problem set which they have found absolutely no effective method of treatment for. You can sit their and question my accuracy in stating that--I have read the studies, you have not. I don't care whether it's a young field or not. If the doctors say they can't treat it, they can't fucking treat it. The answer is in the statement itself. But you're derailing the argument from it's real point, this has nothing to do with actually coming to a real conclusion about the question of capital punishment. It's about testing Bmack's ability as a lawyer.

    Now, please, fuck off back to I-don't-know-shit'sville.
    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

  3. #7593

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    The pinnacle of science: we can't figure this out, so let's operate as though we never will. Good thing you're not in charge of anything more important than your own drug habits, or we might regress back to the dark ages.
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  4. #7594
    Endearingly Dislikable RotationSlimWang's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were dictating the rule of law based on what MIGHT be possible in the FUTURE. You know, in the the future we might be able to just go back in time and stop people from committing murders. It's cruel of us to imprison them whatsoever when there's a chance science might develop a way for us to prevent them from ever having done wrong in the first place. We should just let them walk free and keep on doing what they're doing until science discovers something new.

    You base law on what is true in the here and now, not what is theoretically possible. Inmate breaks free and kills a doctor in the hospital, your answer to the doctor's family for why this situation was created in the first place is that we were hoping the sociopath killer might become capable of rehabilitation at some unknown point in the future?
    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

  5. #7595
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    1. In regards to abortion, that gets into an even more contentious debate about when a fetus is considered a "life." There are those who believe that, as soon as the egg is fertilized, the life exists. I fall into the view that it occurs at a later point, at my mind at least what we call "viability," the idea that a level of development has been reached such that the embryo can survive outside of the womb. Beyond that, I wouldn't really like to start an abortion debate, because that's a whole other field of conversation, but yeah, I do understand that, at least under the strict religious interpretation of the start of life, abortion rights should be similarly barred. But that's not my point of view.

    2. I have a friend who believes the death penalty will never be fully repealed in California due to the strength of the prison guard lobby. He argues that, even if it were to be removed everywhere else, it should be retained as a threat against inmates attacking prison guards. I don't feel that the threat of death comes into any of these criminals minds when they are committing a crime however; it is not a deterrent because they are not thinking in those terms when they are in a state of mind that allows them to take another person's life.

    Your argument, however, if I'm reading this correctly, is that killing the person is for the greater good, creating a protection against their behavior in the future. This is an argument that I actually find somewhat reasonable, but at what point do we decide to get there? Assuming that would be the only goal of the death penalty, the person would have to be a recidivist killer, and I would assume more than two killings, or at very least two killings with treatment between them, both done in particularly cruel and dispassionate ways. I find it hard to argue against this at a certain point, but it's also a difficult theoretical area because we don't really have experience with these sorts of cases yet. (There are three separate serial killers from South American countries who were taken through nominally rehabilitative processes in prison and released. The whereabouts of two are currently unknown, and that's pretty scary. These people are the ones who make your argument compelling.) But these are also the exceptions within the exceptions. The fact is very few people are sociopathic killers, and even certain sociopaths will respond favorably to a controlled environment. I saw it with a client who was able to maintain focus with the constant supervision of prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  6. #7596

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    I'm glad you had the sense to abandon your attempt to prove a negative (with appeals to a source of authority) and resort to a moral argument I don't give two shits about.
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  7. #7597

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Great strawman too.
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  8. #7598
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RotationSlimWang View Post
    You base law on what is true in the here and now, not what is theoretically possible.
    Well, more often we base law on what was true 4-8 years previously it seems. Or what could be true in the more luxe neighborhoods of Vermont and Delaware.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  9. #7599
    Endearingly Dislikable RotationSlimWang's Avatar
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    We're talking admitted, brutal, multiple murder without provocation. Jeffrey Dahmer. Caught with the victims' heads in the fucking freezer. We let them live? Are you not creating an unnecessarily dangerous environment for the other prisoners by introducing them into the mix? Suppose it's another prisoner who is killed, how do you explain that to the dead prisoner's family? This dead fellow might actually have been capable of rehabilitation, but now we'll never have the chance because we decided to extend the same principles of forgiveness to humans who have demonstrated a marked disregard for the concepts of empathy and consequence.

    WHAT SAY YOU?
    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

  10. #7600
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Well, under the current California system, that's kind of the nice thing about death row. Since we don't execute inmates, it takes a potentially dangerous part of the prison population and secludes them. If that sort of housing were possible, then it would provide safeguards against dangerous inmates creating problems for the general prison populace, as well as employees. Currently, that is not possible. However, under a system that worked more towards rehabilitation rather than just housing inmates, the goal would be less crowding in prisons in general due to reduced recidivism rates. With a less crowded prison, it would be much easier to keep someone such as a Dahmer separated from the general populace. There are also safety procedures taken when anyone with severe mental issues is being treated currently. Acknowledged, they are not perfect, as nothing ever is, but the combined supervision and treatment would make the likelihood of a dangerous situation highly unlikely.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  11. #7601
    Endearingly Dislikable RotationSlimWang's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    But you're proposing a system without a death row, wherein they would be committed to institutions for mental treatment, correct? Are these institutions supposed to completely seclude the patients from each other the way that death row does?
    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

  12. #7602
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    the strength of the prison guard lobby
    ummm
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  13. #7603

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Tom, prison guard unions have a lot of power in California politics.
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  14. #7604
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Well,

    Most Death Row inmates aren't completely secluded from each other. If they are approved by their case managers they can be allowed to enter communal areas with other inmates for much of the day. That procedure would be the sort of thing that just wouldn't change: if you are too dangerous, you can't be in a group environment. Admittedly, some people see it as more humane to kill someone in that situation than to force them to live their life in solitude. That's an issue I don't yet have an answer for: as you pointed out early on, I am still young in this field. As such, I'm more fiercely ideological than older people would be, and I have less experience to shade my views. I like having these dialogues, but always feel a little reticent to do so because of my limited knowledge in the real specifics.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  15. #7605
    VigoTheCarpathian
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    what if the people want the corporal punishment? I mean, when I went down to occupy L.A., I went to pick a fight with the cops, not for any political or economic justice, but because I wanted a beating, because that's how I get off. You are going to deny my right to a proper beating. you fascist

  16. #7606
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by IceyHotshot View Post
    Tom, prison guard unions have a lot of power in California politics.
    what is the source of their power?
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  17. #7607
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VigoTheCarpathian View Post
    what if the people want the corporal punishment? I mean, when I went down to occupy L.A., I went to pick a fight with the cops, not for any political or economic justice, but because I wanted a beating, because that's how I get off. You are going to deny my right to a proper beating. you fascist
    What crime is being broken here? You aren't being battered or assaulted. You aren't dying, so there's no murder, and even if you did, you consented to the activity so there's no liability. There's no crime, so go ahead and let the cops kick your ass. I'm firmly in support of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  18. #7608

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    CA hosts a lot of prisoners, which means a lot of prison guards. A large amount of prison guard union dues goes into lobbying/campaign contributions. The union spends millions on campqigns and has successfully sponsored multiple propositions that have heen pro-incarceration, anti-rehab, and have thus increased the size of the union and the amount of dues they collect. It's quite a complex.
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  19. #7609
    zeezus amyzzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    That's disgusting.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Because fucking millenials that's what

  20. #7610
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Wow ... You guys don't have anything better to do? cr****

    Avenal State Prison (ASP)
    California Correctional Center (CCC)
    California Correctional Institution (CCI)
    California Institution for Men (CIM)
    California Institution for Women (CIW)
    California Medical Facility (CMF)
    California Men's Colony (CMC)
    California Rehabilitation Center (CRC)
    California State Prison, Centinela (CEN)
    California State Prison, Corcoran (COR)
    California State Prison, Los Angeles County (LAC)
    California State Prison, Sacramento (SAC)
    California State Prison, Solano (SOL)
    California Substance Abuse Treatment Facility and State Prison, Corcoran (SATF)
    Calipatria State Prison (CAL)
    Central California Women's Facility (CCWF)
    Chuckawalla Valley State Prison (CVSP)
    Correctional Training Facility (CTF)
    Deuel Vocational Institution (DVI)
    Folsom State Prison (FSP)
    High Desert State Prison (HDSP)
    Ironwood State Prison (ISP)
    Kern Valley State Prison (KVSP)
    Mule Creek State Prison (MCSP)
    North Kern State Prison (NKSP)
    Pelican Bay State Prison (PBSP)
    Pleasant Valley State Prison (PVSP)
    Richard J. Donovan Correctional Facility (RJD)
    Salinas Valley State Prison (SVSP)
    San Quentin State Prison (SQ)
    Sierra Conservation Center (SCC)
    Valley State Prison for Women (VSPW)
    Wasco State Prison - Reception Center (W
    Have Another Hit Of Colorado Sunshine

  21. #7611
    Rover canexplain's Avatar
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    The total is actually less than I thought .... cr****

    MONTHLY INSTITUTION/CAMPS POPULATION DETAIL MIDNIGHT September 30, 2012
    FELON/ CIVIL DESIGN PERCENT STAFFED
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ INSTITUTIONS/CAMPS OTHER ADDICT TOTAL CAPACITY OCCUPIED CAPACITY
    MALE
    ASP (AVENAL SP) 4,918 4,918 2,920 168.4 4,606
    CCC (CAL CORRECTL CTR) 4,457 4,457 3,883 114.8 4,392
    CCI (CAL CORRECTL INSTITN) 4,756 4,756 2,783 170.9 4,946
    CIM (CAL INSTITN FOR MEN) 4,776 5 4,781 2,976 160.7 5,855
    CMF (CAL MEDICAL FACIL) 2,294 2,294 2,297 99.9 2,414
    CMC (CAL MEN'S COLONY) 5,154 5,154 3,838 134.3 5,207
    CRC (CAL REHAB CTR, MEN) 3,399 113 3,512 2,491 141.0 3,581
    CAL (CAL SP, CALIPATRIA) 3,620 3,620 2,308 156.8 3,710
    CEN (CAL SP, CENTINELA) 3,679 3,679 2,308 159.4 3,758
    COR (CAL SP, CORCORAN) 4,720 4,720 3,116 151.5 4,619
    LAC (CAL SP, LOS ANGELES CO) 3,884 3,884 2,300 168.9 3,990
    SAC (CAL SP, SACRAMENTO) 2,655 2,655 1,828 145.2 2,743
    SQ (CAL SP, SAN QUENTIN) 3,842 3,842 3,082 124.7 3,882
    SOL (CAL SP, SOLANO) 4,222 4,222 2,610 161.8 4,240
    SATF (CAL SATF AND SP - COR) 5,554 2 5,556 3,424 162.3 5,388
    CVSP (CHUCKAWALLA VALLEY SP) 2,758 2,758 1,738 158.7 2,615
    CTF (CORRL TRAING FAC) 5,739 5,739 3,312 173.3 5,075
    DVI (DEUEL VOCATL INSTITN) 2,456 7 2,463 1,681 146.5 2,478
    FOL (FOLSOM SP) 2,746 2,746 2,469 111.2 2,852
    HDP (HIGH DESERT SP) 3,612 3,612 2,324 155.4 3,695
    IRON (IRONWOOD SP) 3,513 3,513 2,200 159.7 3,310
    KVSP (KERN VALLEY SP) 3,959 3,959 2,448 161.7 4,344
    MCSP (MULE CREEK SP) 2,933 2,933 1,700 172.5 3,036
    NKSP (NORTH KERN SP) 4,734 4,734 2,694 175.7 4,789
    PBSP (PELICAN BAY SP) 3,098 3,098 2,380 130.2 3,143
    PVSP (PLEASANT VALLEY SP) 3,775 3,775 2,308 163.6 3,633
    RJD (RJ DONOVAN CORR FACIL) 3,451 3,451 2,200 156.9 3,560
    SVSP (SALINAS VAL SP) 3,497 3,497 2,452 142.6 3,409
    SCC (SIERRA CONSERV CTR) 4,354 4,354 3,736 116.5 4,701
    WSP (WASCO SP) 5,031 5,031 2,984 168.6 5,141
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ MALE TOTAL: 117,586 127 117,713 78,790 149.4 119,112
    FEMALE
    CIW (CAL INST FOR WOMEN) 1,517 44 1,561 1,356 115.1 1,642
    CCWF (CENT CAL WOMEN'S FACIL) 2,689 33 2,722 2,004 135.8 2,836
    VSP (VALLEY SP) 1,721 1,721 1,980 86.9 1,692
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ FEMALE TOTAL: 5,927 77 6,004 5,340 112.4 6,170
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ TOTAL: 123,513 204 123,717 84,130 147.1
    Have Another Hit Of Colorado Sunshine

  22. #7612

    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    The influence and history of the CCPOA is pretty well documented on the web. They are not the largest in terms of membership but are definitely heavy hitters in terms of political spending.
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  23. #7613
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Plus, they have a strong lobby because it's in their contract that they cannot strike (if I'm remembering their contractual requirements correctly.) That plus their affiliation with the California Highway Patrol union gives them a very strong arm in legislative decisions. Yeah, it's creepy and disgusting.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  24. #7614
    Endearingly Dislikable RotationSlimWang's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    Well,

    Most Death Row inmates aren't completely secluded from each other. If they are approved by their case managers they can be allowed to enter communal areas with other inmates for much of the day. That procedure would be the sort of thing that just wouldn't change: if you are too dangerous, you can't be in a group environment. Admittedly, some people see it as more humane to kill someone in that situation than to force them to live their life in solitude. That's an issue I don't yet have an answer for: as you pointed out early on, I am still young in this field. As such, I'm more fiercely ideological than older people would be, and I have less experience to shade my views. I like having these dialogues, but always feel a little reticent to do so because of my limited knowledge in the real specifics.
    Goddammit sir, being a lawyer isn't about waiting until you have all the facts--sometimes you just gotta grab a premise and fucking OWN IT. You can't only win when you're on the right side, you fuck. Right or wrong, you stick to your fucking guns and you WIN. There's no room for exceptions and flexibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by amyzzz View Post
    Hannah, I don't know that pigs have big weiners, and my early 20's facination with dogs because of weiner size, I think. If that helps.

  25. #7615
    The Encyclopedia bmack86's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Yup, but I'm not yet in the situation where I have to grab the premise, outside of this argument. And frankly, with death penalty work it's mostly in appeals where you do have time to get all the facts and really develop the minutiae of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  26. #7616
    old school SepaGroove's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    At work and they're making me do someone elses job since she called in sick.

    It's wayyy more work than what I do, and the girl that normally does it gets paid about $5 more per hour than I do because of it. AND it's sitting at a front desk and dealing with people that come in, answering phones, etc. Shit that I DESPISE.

    Plus I'm going to a show tonight that starts at 9, and I'm not off until 8 so I'm literally counting the minutes until I'm off.

  27. #7617
    Chest Rockwell Gribbz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Man, just found out my dad has prostate cancer.

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  28. #7618
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gribbz View Post
    Man, just found out my dad has prostate cancer.
    Ugh. Matt, so sorry to hear that. Was it caught in the early stages?

  29. #7619
    Gummi bear sultan miscorrections's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Bad Mood Thread

    I'm really sorry, Matt. If it was caught early it's very treatable though!
    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    Has anyone gone on a date with a sandwich recently? What base did you get to? Ham?

  30. #7620
    Coachella Junkie locachica73's Avatar
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    Agreed, I am so sorry Matt.
    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMotionApocalypse View Post
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