To All You Assholes Out There

[Somewhat Damaged]

I'm sorry that your friend committed suicide, Ron, although I have to say how much I hate the vilification of those who commit suicide. I haven't been that depressed for a couple of years now but a person who thinks of killing him/herself is clearly not in their right frame of mind and doesn't need to be scolded for being selfish. If you've never been that low, you can't possibly know the despair that's felt and that can drive someone to even consider taking their own life.

[RotationSlimWang]

I'm sorry that your friend committed suicide, Ron, although I have to say how much I hate the vilification of those who commit suicide. I haven't been that depressed for a couple of years now but a person who thinks of killing him/herself is clearly not in their right frame of mind and doesn't need to be scolded for being selfish. If you've never been that low, you can't possibly know the despair that's felt and that can drive someone to even consider taking their own life.

Okay, I half-dig where you're coming from, because I was suicidal on a daily basis for an incredibly long time. In fact I not only attempted it once but the fact that I didn't die defys all medical reason--I've still not figured out how I woke up except divine intervention?

And yes, there is a big part of me that says "fuck that 'it's selfish' bullshit." When I decide I definitely want out of this life it's my goddamn right to end it--possibly the only truly inalienable right any of us have. But as I got a little bit older I realized that the truth is when you bail on life you better be doing it when there'll be nobody around to mourn you, 'cause if there is then you ARE being a selfish cunt. It's your right to be a selfish cunt like this if you really want to be, but that doesn't change the fact that by doing that you're foisting a tremendous set of emotional baggage on the people who love you.

If/when the day comes that I decide to peace out, my friends will have to fucking deal. They know me, they should understand. But I couldn't imagine doing it until my mother and brother are both dead and gone. Saving yourself at the expense of others is... well, selfish.

[mountmccabe]

I agree with Rick. It's awful to lose a friend in this way but it's cheap to knock someone when they're dead.

Also I never really understood how the suicide is selfish/cowardly meme has survived until just now; people who've commited suicide give up the ability to defend themselves. And while piling on more of a guilt trip on people seems counterproductive to me different people respond in different ways.

Also I don't know that I've ever heard of/thought of suicide referred to as "saving yourself" before.

Also, Ron,

but as a sidebar, Jim and I were of the same ilk, so he would want me to go to vegoose and celebrate our friendship, and not the end .... so Jim, this weekend, its for you dude ... canx**

is a great sentiment. Way to go. Go to Vegoose and celebrate life

[algunz]

I am a victim of suicide. My brother's best friend killed himself the summer of my 7th grade year because he was overwhelmed by his parent's divorce. My friend's wife killed herself a year after she lost him on 9/11. Yes, they felt as if they had no way out at the time. Yes, they felt so lost and low that they couldn't see or sense any hope. But, fuck that. There's always a way to a better place. I'm left here. Their families are left here trying to deal with the repercussions of their weak moment and all we can do is think why didn't they let us at least try to help. All they did was leave us with questions and loose ends. We can never put this puzzle together. We're left here holding these fucking peices and now we are left with absolutely no hope. No hope of seeing them again. No hope of trying to help them. I will always love them both dearly, but as I said before - I hate them every day for it.

[RotationSlimWang]

I agree with Rick. It's awful to lose a friend in this way but it's cheap to knock someone when they're dead.

Also I never really understood how the suicide is selfish/cowardly meme has survived until just now; people who've commited suicide give up the ability to defend themselves. And while piling on more of a guilt trip on people seems counterproductive to me different people respond in different ways.

Who's getting a guilt trip piled on them? The dead person? They're dead. And just because someone can't defend themselves because they're deceased doesn't make all of their actions while alive suddenly free from judgment.

It's most definitely selfish. "Cowardly" I think gets thrown around too much by people who don't understand a true suicidal mentality. REALLY killing yourself takes some balls--but there are so many who call it cowardly on the grounds that it's an easy way out. It ain't that easy to face the unknown. It's only easy in the respect that we think we get relief from the trials and tribulations. Man, I hope we do.

But the fact is, I can most definitely envision reaching a point in life where I don't see anything else to look forward to and am free from the pressing obligation of loved ones and decide that I'm cool on this life. Doing it out of emotion and/or when you have loved ones still around that will have to bear the emotional brunt of your actions though is stupid/selfish.

[Yablonowitz]

Who's getting a guilt trip piled on them? The dead person? They're dead. And just because someone can't defend themselves because they're deceased doesn't make all of their actions while alive suddenly free from judgment.

It's most definitely selfish. "Cowardly" I think gets thrown around too much by people who don't understand a true suicidal mentality. REALLY killing yourself takes some balls--but there are so many who call it cowardly on the grounds that it's an easy way out. It ain't that easy to face the unknown. It's only easy in the respect that we think we get relief from the trials and tribulations. Man, I hope we do.

But the fact is, I can most definitely envision reaching a point in life where I don't see anything else to look forward to and am free from the pressing obligation of loved ones and decide that I'm cool on this life. Doing it out of emotion and/or when you have loved ones still around that will have to bear the emotional brunt of your actions though is stupid/selfish.

If someone had a chronic painful disease that essentially destroys all facets of their life and someone who loves them helps them die - it's called mercy.

For a severely depressed person who lacks perspective and feel permanently emotionally destroyed and decides to kill themselves - that's called selfishness.

Not that I'm equating the two. They're not the same. But in the mind of a severely depressed person, they are the same. This board has been rehashing old arguments lately. So some of you have heard this soap box speech before - people who severely DEPRESSED often have no sense of time - they don't foresee a time when they WON'T be depressed and they can only painfully recollect memories of the past when they felt better. They can't get out of their bed in the morning, every cell in their body hurts. I hate to quote from Ordinary People, but it's like Timothy Hutten said - "It's like falling into a hole and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and you can't get out and then suddenly you're the hole." Or words to that effect.

I'm not a fan of the 'selfish' term.

While I sound self-righteous and convinced that my viewpoint reflects objective reality - that is not the case. It's just my opinion, spoken generally with the understanding that I could be wrong and/or that some people who kill themselves do so for other reasons that I described.

[algunz]

But, why couldn't they reach out? Why couldn't they ask us for help? It's as if they didn't think about us at all. Those left behind have to deal with this enormous guilt. What did I do wrong that they wouldn't reach out to us at their lowest moment? What did I miss?

[gaypalmsprings]

I think some people are pre-wired to self-destruct. One never knows.

[goodgrl]

I am so truly sorry for your loss. You are doing the right thing by
going on with your planned vegoose trip.Life still goes on. Your still here.The best thing/ only thing you can do is keep your friend and his family in your thoughts and prayers.

I have always thought of mourning as a selfish act. Not to sound twisted but we should be happy for the deceased.They are no longer in pain.They are in a better place. Unless you-yourself have experienced the true depths of despair and darkness, we shouldnt judge. Time heals all wounds.

I am all too familiar with losing someone you love dearly.I think about him everyday! Its been ten years.

[algunz]

Now, I never thought of that. Mourning as selfish. Interesting.

I can swallow that, unfortunately my blood doesn't necessarily feed that to my brain. From a spiritual perspective, I see them wallowing in their own misery. I just can't seem to shake that image.

[goodgrl]

From a spiritual perspective, I see them wallowing in their own misery. I just can't seem to shake that image.[/QUOTE]

I agree. thats another reason why I try not to be angry because I dont want them to feel guilty for the decision they have made.

[mountmccabe]

Who's getting a guilt trip piled on them? The dead person? They're dead. And just because someone can't defend themselves because they're deceased doesn't make all of their actions while alive suddenly free from judgment.

I was thinking of people who're depressed and/or considering suicide; I was looking at what purpose the "suicide is selfish" meme has.

Telling someone that they shouldn't commit suicide because it'll cause problems for other people would seem to me to be compounding their problems and leave them more despondent.


Though, of course, some will take the meme as a reality check and it'll help them pull together.


All this is speculation, I'll admit.

[algunz]

The last thing they probably want to hear is that you're just gonna cause more problems. I get that.

I also can relate to the truth that in my moments of lowest depair it is the fact that I know that others love and care for me that pull me out of that "hole."

I just can't and probably will never grasp why they couldn't make that connection. I will always wonder - was my presence really that meaningless?

[mountmccabe]

But, why couldn't they reach out? Why couldn't they ask us for help? It's as if they didn't think about us at all. Those left behind have to deal with this enormous guilt. What did I do wrong that they wouldn't reach out to us at their lowest moment? What did I miss?

You, very likely, didn't miss anything.

I don't know why your friends committed suicide; I don't know what they were going through but you can't blame yourself for what they did. There are not always big bold hints of what is to come.

And if someone is in such a state of mind as to see suicide as the best option you can't trust their judgment of what might happen if they asked you or another friend for help.

I can imagine feeling despondent and not having any idea how things could possibly improve and feeling like you're causing problems for everyone you love... and not wanting to make things worse for them by trying to make them carry more of your burden.


Suicide can be selfish, I'll grant, but it doesn't have to be. Depression comes in many forms, has many shades and colors.

[algunz]

"You, very likely, didn't miss anything."

But, I'll always wonder. I can't get that out of my head. I've been trying to shake it for years.

[Yablonowitz]

Also, severe depression, as I've experienced it, IS a physical condition. Reaching out to people, while essential to getting help, isn't going to make them feel better and they know this. Plus, like John said, there's a distorted sense of guilt and shame that goes with it. At least the kind that I experienced. I should add, though, that I've never been suicidal at all. But I've been severely depressed and, once I got out of it, have a completely different understanding of it. I never realized the extent of the physicality of it. It's not just feeling really sad. You can't eat, you can't concentrate, every hour seems to last about 10 hours. If I had to choose between breaking my arm and having to be really depressed for a day or two, I'd have my arm broken.

[algunz]

How does all that work as an excuse for making that ultimate choice?

[Yablonowitz]

Damn it, I have you on ignore for a good reason.

I'm not talking about excuses. I'm talking about trying to fucking understand...or trying at least to begin to understand what's going on. There're no excuses. I'm not defending it. 30,000 plus people kill themselves every year. Shouldn't we, instead of just judging that phenomenon, try to understand it? Christ. You want everything to fit in a nice and tidy little categories and general up or down decisions about how people behave. That's why we never get anywhere. People don't want to understand.

[mountmccabe]

Well said in both posts, Greg.

[algunz]

Woah, step back. In my questions, I am trying to understand. Put me back on ignore if you feel the need to bite back so directly. This isn't easy for me to put this all out on the table.

[mountmccabe]

How does all that work as an excuse for making that ultimate choice?

I am having a horrible time putting anything into words.

But what I meant when I said yay to what Greg was that he wasn't talking about blame, he wasn't talking about right and wrong. He was talking about what happens rather than who's fault it is.

I don't think there's an attempt here to justify suicide. I have no problem thinking suicide is a horrible thing to do and also thinking that those who consider and/or commit suicide are unreasonably vilified.


Depression is a disease. That there are misdiagnoses doesn't negate the real cases.

I want to say more but I have no training in the field... and this field is complex and confusing; there is already a lot of bad information circulating around and I don't want to (possibly) add to it.

[algunz]

I'm not talking about fault either.

I'm trying to understand why they gave up on us?

[RotationSlimWang]

Okay, I guess it's time for the suicidal to come in and clear some shit up.

Why they gave up on you? You had nothing to do with it. Here's the thing, kid: when you truly want to die--and I don't mean whiny cryface teenage angst "I bet they'll wish they'd been nicer to me when I'm dead" bullshit wanting to die--sometimes it's because you just don't enjoy your life. Depression, at its deepest parts, is an intensely personal and exclusive experience. To a certain extent it doesn't matter what other people do. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't even matter if things go good or bad. You're just besieged by an inability to take pleasure in anything.

Now, here's a hypothetical I'd like to pose: imagine your life has always been 98 percent completely unenjoyable. You hate it. You wake up every day and your first conscious thought is regret that you didn't die in your sleep again. You go through the motions, day after day, at a job you hate so that you'll have the money to pay for a car you have daydreams of crashing and a house you wish you'd died in last night. You have family and maybe some friends, they love you. You love them too but it doesn't really seem to mean the same thing when you say you love them because you'd give them all up in a heartbeat if you could just get out of this fucking nightmare of a person you were born as. Oh, and some stipulations just so you can't try to weasel out of the exercise: also assume that the "you" in this exercise has attempted all possible treatments, medicinal and otherwise, all to no avail. Also assume that they're, say, 50, and have been this way since they were a small child, so to say that they should wait until they grow out of it is silly.

That's one way.

[algunz]

I can't help but carry some of the blame. I've been carrying it around for years. Should I have talked to them more? Should I have spent more time with them? You guys do make it easier to understand, but I still can't shake the what ifs and the if onlys? I appreciate your words though. It's amazing how this board really has become quite a haven for my thoughts. Thank you for your patience.

[RotationSlimWang]

Absolutely nothing you can do. The one thing you have to eschew in the mourning process is regret/guilt and all that kind of shit. Things happen the way they happen. They're dead, you loved them, they probably appreciated it and reciprocated.

But some problems are bigger than you. Bigger than everyone else in the world. Bigger than yourself, although yourself is ususally the problem.

[betao]

I can't help but carry some of the blame. I've been carrying it around for years. Should I have talked to them more? Should I have spent more time with them? You guys do make it easier to understand, but I still can't shake the what ifs and the if onlys? I appreciate your words though. It's amazing how this board really has become quite a haven for my thoughts. Thank you for your patience.

The "what ifs" and everything will always be there, but the solid fact is that you will probably never know the answer to those questions. The best way to get through this is to just accept that; accept that you cant change it by finding the answers to these questions, and move on. I obviously can't speak from the perspective of someone who is suicidal or has dealt with friends/family that have done it, but I guess that makes most sense to me. You just have to tell yourself that the past is the past, and you can't change what happened. No matter how many times you come up with possible solutions to the "what ifs", time wont go back for you. Just try to move on and focus on other things.

[RotationSlimWang]

Also Gunz...


you're a schoolteacher. Can you do anything right? There's no lesson plan for suicide prevention. =)

[canexplain]

tnx for all the thoughtfull and thought provoking answers to this thread ... peace ... ron**

[algunz]

Also Gunz...


you're a schoolteacher. Can you do anything right? There's no lesson plan for suicide prevention. =)

I know, and that's what sucks. When my brother lost his friend, it was very difficult - but I wasn't as directly affected. He was a good friend, but he was my brother's friend. I just felt very sad. But when my girlfriend did it in 2002 I was so lost, and all the sort of pent up frustration from watching my brother deal with it came flooding back too. I couldn't put any of it together. There was clearly no lesson plan. I've talked to professionals about it and have dealt with it to the best of my ability, but I still have this big hole that just got open up wide again in the past few days. But you all are really helping me fill that void in with logic and reality. Something that those fucking quacks couldn't do. I need answers not just more questions. Thank you.

Ron - I hope you have a fantastic time this weekend. Peace.

[Somewhat Damaged]

The first time I went into the hospital, in June '98, my suicidality was due in large part to the overwhelming sense of isolation I felt. I was selling Cutco knives at the time and wasn't doing very well sales-wise, which meant I wasn't making any money, which meant I couldn't afford to live on my own (I didn't get along with my parents for years and living with them was hell). One night, I couldn't get a hold of any leads for over an hour and the sense of despair started creeping over me. I called my boss to get a pep talk but I got his answering machine. I called my assistant manager, who I had become friends with, and didn't get an answer from him either. I called my best friend and again came up empty. I was home alone, didn't know where my parents were (and I wouldn't have wanted to talk to them anyway had they been home), and it just seemed like the entire world had gone away. I called 911 because I didn't know how much longer I could resist the urge to slash myself up and get this, I even got their fucking answering machine! I fucking lost it and started punching myself and the wall. But then the phone rang. It was a 911 dispatcher and they sent a patrol car out to pick me up.
I'm embarrassed when I think back on how I acted a decade ago, knowing that a good deal of that angst was probably looked at as being a ploy for attention (even found out that a boss said exactly that). But the disintegration my mind was going through was very much real and continued for another year. When I'd fall into my suicidal moods, I was so enmeshed in that mindset (it doesn't help that I'm obsessive-compulsive, with the emphasis on "obsessive" in my case) that I couldn't even recall any positive memories. (algunz, you've read about memories being mood dependent, right?) I've described it to my psychologist as living in the moment so completely that it's as if no other moment in life has ever occurred. The concept of being loved or cared about is alien and regarded as a sick joke somebody tried to pull on you. (Radiohead's "Nice Dream" has always been the best representation of this melancholy for me. "They love me like I was their brother, they protect me, listen to me. They dug me my very own garden, gave me sunshine, made me happy. Nice dream.")

I dunno, I'm writing this from work and trying not to derail my mood and this is taking longer than I wanted it to and I don't think I'm being very coherent but basically, the point of this was to illustrate to algunz that regardless of what you may have done or could have done for your friends, there's no guarantee that it would've had any effect. Like others have said, don't hold yourself accountable and I would hope you could get over your hatred of them.