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Thread: Help me understand . . .

  1. #481
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    Jesus christ gunz.

    The botched execution is a bad thing for many reasons. Here are two. First, It is about as perfect an example of cruel punishment as one could possibly think of. The US Consititution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Ergo, the botched execution is unconstitutional.
    The way this argument is formatted is what they spend four weeks trying to teach you in Con Law 1. Good work, Tom!
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  2. #482
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    a rare occasion where I'm in furious agreement with Tom and Randy.

    Those who see no issue with this botched execution issue have a severe empathy problem and an overdeveloped sense of vengeance in my view.

    The function of any just society's penal system is ONLY to prevent and deter crime, not inflict pain for its own sake out of some warped view of justice (read: vengeance). There's a shitload of issues with our prison and legal system that run counter to that principle, including the concept of death penalty itself IMO, but this particular one should be a no brainer. Inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on these prisoners will not unmake their crimes or prevent any others. Rejoicing in the pain of others fucked regardless of what wrong they've done.

  3. #483
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by algunz View Post
    So... Chemical injection is too haphazard. Shoot them in the head? Hanging? What's the least cruel and unusual?
    Slave wages and the American dream apparently.
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  4. #484
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by koryp View Post
    Slave wages and the American dream apparently.
    That was so poetic, brother.
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  5. #485
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by algunz View Post
    So... Chemical injection is too haphazard. Shoot them in the head? Hanging? What's the least cruel and unusual?
    None of it, actually. Camus once wrote that, "Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal’s deed, however calculated, can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date on which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not to be encountered in private life." I think that's exactly correct. Add to that, the fact that in this particular case, you have the double outrage of the State of Oklahoma procuring a series of drugs that they didn't fully know would work, the courts refusing to allow these inmates the right to know what the drugs actually were before they were executed, and then an all-too-predictable scene where the inmate suffered a gruesome death as the drugs (that he wasn't allowed to know about or object to in the first place) failed to work properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  6. #486
    Coachella Junkie algunz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw94086 View Post
    an overdeveloped sense of vengeance
    This helps me understand.

  7. #487
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    I mean, they didn't even give him sedatives. Or painkillers.

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  8. #488
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I mean, they didn't even give him sedatives. Or painkillers.
    He was given a three drug cocktail. One is a sedative, another is to stop his breathing, the other is to stop the heart.
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  9. #489
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by algunz View Post
    So... Chemical injection is too haphazard. Shoot them in the head? Hanging? What's the least cruel and unusual?
    Why don't we just not execute anyone? Do you really trust the government enough to allow it to execute its own citizens, guilty or no?







    that last question paraphrased the ACLU's statement today
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  10. #490
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldorrr View Post
    He was given a three drug cocktail. One is a sedative, another is to stop his breathing, the other is to stop the heart.
    Not quite, they were attempting to use a new two-drug cocktail.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
    To you guys I say Wat?????????? Off to ?????? ....... cr****
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  11. #491
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldorrr View Post
    He was given a three drug cocktail. One is a sedative, another is to stop his breathing, the other is to stop the heart.
    The painkiller and sedative weren't administered properly, you big fat dope.

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  12. #492
    Coachella Junkie algunz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    No, I don't trust the government, but I'm all for depopulation.

  13. #493
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Depopulation begins at home.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  14. #494
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    Why don't we just not execute anyone? Do you really trust the government enough to allow it to execute its own citizens, guilty or no?

    yo.
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  15. #495
    ankle biter guedita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by algunz View Post
    No, I don't trust the government, but I'm all for depopulation.
    Great, I know this reallllllllllllly dumb middle school teacher we could get rid of.

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  16. #496
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    None of it, actually. Camus once wrote that, "Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal’s deed, however calculated, can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date on which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not to be encountered in private life." I think that's exactly correct. Add to that, the fact that in this particular case, you have the double outrage of the State of Oklahoma procuring a series of drugs that they didn't fully know would work, the courts refusing to allow these inmates the right to know what the drugs actually were before they were executed, and then an all-too-predictable scene where the inmate suffered a gruesome death as the drugs (that he wasn't allowed to know about or object to in the first place) failed to work properly.
    It should be noted, however, that Camus was also a talentless shithead.
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  17. #497
    Peaceful Oasis TomAz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Translation: Randy hated his French teacher in high school because she wouldn't sleep with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  18. #498
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    The painkiller and sedative weren't administered properly, you big fat dope.
    Ah, I either missed that bit or they didn't know that this morning when I was listening to Morning Edition.
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  19. #499
    Coachella Junkie algunz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    Great, I know this reallllllllllllly dumb middle school teacher we could get rid of.
    Totes, I know her too.

  20. #500
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    Not quite, they were attempting to use a new two-drug cocktail.
    "It was the state's first time using a new, three-drug cocktail for an execution." This is from the article you posted duuuuuuuuude
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  21. #501
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    Translation: Randy hated his French teacher in high school because she wouldn't sleep with him.
    She would have fucked me. I just never understood how the fuck anyone cared about The Stranger. It is the second most boring book ever written, right after The Catcher In The Rye. Also, existentialism is the dweebiest of all isms. It's pseudo-intellectualism at its finest (read: worst).
    Quote Originally Posted by schoolofruckus View Post
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  22. #502
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by algunz View Post
    No, I don't trust the government, but I'm all for depopulation.
    Me too. It's why I have so many DWIs. Take out as many as you can, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by roboto View Post
    And stinkbutt leaving a motorhead set when you know he's dying just to talk shit ? Your a shitty person as well .please let mja give you an anal love disease .

  23. #503
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by thelastgreatman View Post
    She would have fucked me. I just never understood how the fuck anyone cared about The Stranger. It is the second most boring book ever written, right after The Catcher In The Rye. Also, existentialism is the dweebiest of all isms. It's pseudo-intellectualism at its finest (read: worst).
    I would have thought you would have identified with a protagonist who is executed because he would not do what was expected of him.

    Well, we can at least agree on Catcher in the Rye being the worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by efrain44 View Post
    Anyone know who the guy in the Cardinals jersey is? I've seen him in pictures on the board and I thought I saw him this year.

  24. #504
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    None of it, actually. Camus once wrote that, "Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal’s deed, however calculated, can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date on which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not to be encountered in private life." I think that's exactly correct. Add to that, the fact that in this particular case, you have the double outrage of the State of Oklahoma procuring a series of drugs that they didn't fully know would work, the courts refusing to allow these inmates the right to know what the drugs actually were before they were executed, and then an all-too-predictable scene where the inmate suffered a gruesome death as the drugs (that he wasn't allowed to know about or object to in the first place) failed to work properly.
    See also: Dostoevsky's The Idiot. One of the rare instances of a piece of literature really changing my mind on an actual real life issue.

    “Yes—I saw an execution in France—at Lyons. Schneider took me over with him to see it.”
    “What, did they hang the fellow?”
    “No, they cut off people’s heads in France.”
    “What did the fellow do?—yell?”
    “Oh no—it’s the work of an instant. They put a man inside a frame and a sort of broad knife falls by machinery—they call the thing a guillotine-it falls with fearful force and weight-the head springs off so quickly that you can’t wink your eye in between. But all the preparations are so dreadful. When they announce the sentence, you know, and prepare the criminal and tie his hands, and cart him off to the scaffold—that’s the fearful part of the business. The people all crowd round—even women-though they don’t at all approve of women looking on.”
    “No, it’s not a thing for women.”
    fyodor dostoyevsky dostoevsky russian literary artists writers the idiot prince myshkin
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    “Of course not—of course not!—bah! The criminal was a fine intelligent fearless man; Le Gros was his name; and I may tell you—believe it or not, as you like—that when that man stepped upon the scaffold he cried, he did indeed,—he was as white as a bit of paper. Isn’t it a dreadful idea that he should have cried—cried! Whoever heard of a grown man crying from fear—not a child, but a man who never had cried before—a grown man of forty-five years. Imagine what must have been going on in that man’s mind at such a moment; what dreadful convulsions his whole spirit must have endured; it is an outrage on the soul that’s what it is. Because it is said ‘thou shalt not kill,’ is he to be killed because he murdered some one else? No, it is not right, it’s an impossible theory. I assure you, I saw the sight a month ago and it’s dancing before my eyes to this moment. I dream of it, often.”
    The prince had grown animated as he spoke, and a tinge of colour suffused his pale face, though his way of talking was as quiet as ever. The servant followed his words with sympathetic interest. Clearly he was not at all anxious to bring the conversation to an end. Who knows? Perhaps he too was a man of imagination and with some capacity for thought.
    “Well, at all events it is a good thing that there’s no pain when the poor fellow’s head flies off,” he remarked.

    “Do you know, though,” cried the prince warmly, “you made that remark now, and everyone says the same thing, and the machine is designed with the purpose of avoiding pain, this guillotine I mean; but a thought came into my head then: what if it be a bad plan after all? You may laugh at my idea, perhaps—but I could not help its occurring to me all the same. Now with the rack and tortures and so on—you suffer terrible pain of course; but then your torture is bodily pain only (although no doubt you have plenty of that) until you die. But here I should imagine the most terrible part of the whole punishment is, not the bodily pain at all—but the certain knowledge that in an hour,—then in ten minutes, then in half a minute, then now—this very instant—your soul must quit your body and that you will no longer be a man—and that this is certain, certain! That’s the point—the certainty of it. Just that instant when you place your head on the block and hear the iron grate over your head—then—that quarter of a second is the most awful of all.
    “This is not my own fantastical opinion—many people have thought the same; but I feel it so deeply that I’ll tell you what I think. I believe that to execute a man for murder is to punish him immeasurably more dreadfully than is equivalent to his crime. A murder by sentence is far more dreadful than a murder committed by a criminal. The man who is attacked by robbers at night, in a dark wood, or anywhere, undoubtedly hopes and hopes that he may yet escape until the very moment of his death. There are plenty of instances of a man running away, or imploring for mercy—at all events hoping on in some degree—even after his throat was cut. But in the case of an execution, that last hope—having which it is so immeasurably less dreadful to die,—is taken away from the wretch and certainty substituted in its place! There is his sentence, and with it that terrible certainty that he cannot possibly escape death—which, I consider, must be the most dreadful anguish in the world. You may place a soldier before a cannon’s mouth in battle, and fire upon him—and he will still hope. But read to that same soldier his death-sentence, and he will either go mad or burst into tears. Who dares to say that any man can suffer this without going mad? No, no! it is an abuse, a shame, it is unnecessary—why should such a thing exist? Doubtless there may be men who have been sentenced, who have suffered this mental anguish for a while and then have been reprieved; perhaps such men may have been able to relate their feelings afterwards. Our Lord Christ spoke of this anguish and dread. No! no! no! No man should be treated so, no man, no man!”
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    Thanks for giving us the opportunity to not give a fuck again.

  25. #505
    Member Sheldorrr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    I would have thought you would have identified with a protagonist who is executed because he would not do what was expected of him.

    Well, we can at least agree on Catcher in the Rye being the worst.
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  26. #506
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Versed is a terrible drug to use to kill. The dose is so dependent of the person getting it based on their cardiac output and rate of metabolism. It's really a waste too of you use a high potency narcotic like dilaudid or fentanyl. Phenobarbital was an ideal drug to use, however all this "new morality" by pharmaceutical companies is making it too hard to do one really simple thing well, rub motherfuckers out.

    Also the whole being baffled and appalled by the death process is really some weak ass pansy bullshit. It is rarely all peaceful and wonderful with puppies and flower covered hills. Death is gruesome to watch, bodies reject the notion that they stop working. The autonomic response after cardiac and respiratory arrest looks just like it should.
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    I would have thought you would have identified with a protagonist who is executed because he would not do what was expected of him.

    Well, we can at least agree on Catcher in the Rye being the worst.
    What I can't identify with is an author who chooses the critical juncture of his plot structure as having no motivation whatsoever on the part of the protagonist. That is shitty fucking writing. Nothing about the character gave you any indication he was capable of such violence, it comes completely out of nowhere, the only even mildly interesting thing about the book is his apathy at his being prosecuted, and even that is handled about as dully as any series of events in any book ever.
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    I like my steak medium rare.

  29. #509
    Coachella Junkie algunz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    It coming out of nowhere was kind of the point.

  30. #510
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    Default Re: Help me understand . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by koryp View Post
    Versed is a terrible drug to use to kill. The dose is so dependent of the person getting it based on their cardiac output and rate of metabolism. It's really a waste too of you use a high potency narcotic like dilaudid or fentanyl. Phenobarbital was an ideal drug to use, however all this "new morality" by pharmaceutical companies is making it too hard to do one really simple thing well, rub motherfuckers out.

    Also the whole being baffled and appalled by the death process is really some weak ass pansy bullshit. It is rarely all peaceful and wonderful with puppies and flower covered hills. Death is gruesome to watch, bodies reject the notion that they stop working. The autonomic response after cardiac and respiratory arrest looks just like it should.
    What cocktail do they normally use in legal injection, and if it's been so effective, why change it now?
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