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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Classical, etc music

    I figured I'd make a new thread as I don't have any classical music pics to post. Actually that's not true. I could post a grainy photo of the von Dohnanyi conducting the London Phil at Royal Albert Hall. But that's as far as I could go.

    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    What I've heard of Shostakovich I've enjoyed immensely. After getting some more of his prominent work, I'm going to start on Mosolov, then Stravinsky and Rachmaninoff. They are doing the Stravinsky's Firebird Suite at the bowl which I haven't heard (I've only heard The Rite of Spring). Oh and ha ha, I just got a voucher in the mail for two free tickets to any (mostly classical dates) Bowl show and i'm thinking about catching another one. What other composers would you recommend?
    Hmm. Tough to answer succinctly. Quick response to composers most anyone who wants to know/like classical music should know would be Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Tchaikovsky, Schubert. Maybe Mendelssohn, Brahms and Ravel.

    And then hitting ones I personally love (often more than the above) Shostakovich, Sibelius, Mahler, Bruckner and then we start to get to Martinu, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg and Barber and we gotta stop somewhere so yeah.

    Glancing over the upcoming schedule for the Bowl one that sticks out is September 4th where Salonen is conducting LAP in one of his own pieces and then Mahler's 1st symphony. Composers aren't always the best interpreters of their own work but Foreign Bodies is only 6 years old so we're not going to have any perspective on it anyway.

    Then two days later their doing Mussorgsky's Boris Gudnov... a fantastic 19th century Russian opera. Opera's really an entirely different animal but I'd want to see this.

    Oh wow. It looks like Salonen is conducting a Sibelius symphony cycle in October. And Mehta's conducting some Webern. Yummy.

    OK, I'm gonna stop looking at this because fucking hell. SO much good stuff. Salonen is conducting a Bruckner 6th that if I caught some of his Sibelius, etc it could make me think hard about missing a day of Coachella.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    OK, I got a little distracted there. Listing composer's names isn't of much use. I could get into an extended discussion of pieces and performances and conductors and record companies but that sort of thing needs focus to rise above wankery. Even then it's entirely questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    OK, I got a little distracted there. Listing composer's names isn't of much use. I could get into an extended discussion of pieces and performances and conductors and record companies but that sort of thing needs focus to rise above wankery. Even then it's entirely questionable.
    Would you mind elaborating on this, if you have time?

    OMG!@!#!#!# I was just looking through my cds and found that I had actually bought Shostakovich's Symphony #5 (performed by the Cleveland Orchestra) years ago (my memory must be going). I suppose the good thing about getting into classical is that it's really cheap. I think I bought it for like $5.00 at Tower.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    OK, I got a little distracted there. Listing composer's names isn't of much use. I could get into an extended discussion of pieces and performances and conductors and record companies but that sort of thing needs focus to rise above wankery. Even then it's entirely questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    Would you mind elaborating on this, if you have time?

    OMG!@!#!#!# I was just looking through my cds and found that I had actually bought Shostakovich's Symphony #5 (performed by the Cleveland Orchestra) years ago (my memory must be going). I suppose the good thing about getting into classical is that it's really cheap. I think I bought it for like $5.00 at Tower.
    One reason listening to classical music can be intimidating is that there are so many more factors to consider when choosing what to buy. If you want to hear "Heroes" you go to iTunes or you get "Heroes" (the album) and there you go. There will be some live recordings and covers but they're often footnotes. There's a definitive original which is where all inquiry on the matter should start.

    Not so much with old blues or old jazz where there's a library of standards (in addition to originals) that have been recorded by numerous different artists, often by the same artist multiple times under wildly different circumstances. Critics will disagree on what the definitive recordings are... but that's still nothing.

    A single piece by a single composer will be recorded hundreds of times if it's popular. Karajan (a conductor) did studio recordings all nine symphonies by Beethoven no less than four times, with I think three different orchestras. There are also live recordings of these symphonies with various other orchestras. That means for any given Beethoven symphony there're at least a half a dozen different recordings to choose between from just one conductor. [Quick overview: the 50s cycle is unremarkable and with bad sound quality; his mid 60s set is his best (there are certainly better cycles, though) while the late 70s cycle is only worth picking through and the digital set in the 80s isn't worth bothering with at all. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that any of these recordings are "bad" per se, just less remarkable than other choices. Any of his four cycles here would be fine to have but if you like the pieces enough to want multiple versions then these - other than the 60s set - probably aren't going to be ones you keep going back to.]

    Chamber music and solo pieces are much the same way. For example Glenn Gould has no less than three recordings of Bach's Goldberg Variations, all of them different, all of them remarkable (though, really, none of them definitive. Gould's take on Bach (and most other composers, for that matter) was always a bit off. Which is one reason he was so interesting.)

    Opera adds various other layers with conductors and orchestras and different performances but also different casts of singers and productions (especially if you're going to get a DVD of the performance.)

    to be continued...
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    to be continued...
    So the way I've found to navigate through orchestral classical music is by focusing on composers and conductors.

    Following a composer through his career and various genres of music isn't much tougher than reading an entry on something like Wikipedia and paying attention to the order in which things are composed.

    I see conductors are similar to film directors, sort of. Maybe if the only movies around were based on Shakespearen plays. William wrote a bunch of lines with sparse stage direction but that doesn't tell you how to phrase everything, where to put pauses and when to raise your voice. You have the same sort of deal for orchestral scores.

    Different conductors will interpret different musical scores differently. And their interpretation will often change throughout their career.


    ANYWAY If someone was looking to start a collection of orchestral music from scratch I'd say this is the easiest way:
    • Start with some mid-price recordings of composers that sound interesting done by big name orchestras. Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, New York Phil, Chicago Symphony, London Phil. These aren't the only good orchestras out there but this'll get you started with safe stuff. Try to get a variety of different conductors.
    • When you have a good start here (6-10 CDs) and are familiar with all of them pick your favorite pieces and start getting other recordings of the same pieces. Get a different conductor interpreting the same piece, preferably a conductor you already have doing one of the other pieces.
    • See what differences you can pick out. Can you listen to one recording of a symphony and follow it with another? Do you hear different things, have a different response?
    • Repeat with a different piece. Keep listening.
    • Keep expanding, sometimes getting broader by getting new pieces and/or new composers, sometimes deeper by getting other pieces by the same composer and/or other performances of pieces you already have recordings from.
    • Eventually you'll start figuring out what composers and conductors you like. You should start figuring out if you even care about having multiple performances of a single piece.
    • Read the booklets that come with the CDs. Read wikipedia, etc articles on the composers and conductors. Read Amazon reviews. Find places where people are talking about this music and look for more recommendations.
    • Get what sounds interesting. Get more of what you're listening to a lot.
    • Enjoy the music. If you're not enjoying it don't force it.


    The above probably won't go that quickly unless you start listening near exclusively to classical music. It's not overwhelming if you move at your own pace.

    If you want more names to write down/look for here's a short(ish) list of conductors I like, generally:
    Otto Klemperer, John Barbirolli, Carlos Kleiber, Eugen Jochum, Bruno Walter, Fritz Reiner, Claudio Abbado are names I'd say to look for. And Gunter wand, Sergiu Celibedache, Ferenc Fricsay. Karajan and Bernstein are good too.

    Willem Mengelberg, Arturo Toscanini, William Furtwangler, Thomas Beecham and Hans Knapperstbusch are all older (mostly pre-stereo era) conductors I love. They're good enough that I don't mind the rough sound quality most of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

  6. #6

    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    One reason listening to classical music can be intimidating is that there are so many more factors to consider when choosing what to buy. If you want to hear "Heroes" you go to iTunes or you get "Heroes" (the album) and there you go. There will be some live recordings and covers but they're often footnotes. There's a definitive original which is where all inquiry on the matter should start.

    A single piece by a single composer will be recorded hundreds of times if it's popular. Karajan (a conductor) did studio recordings all nine symphonies by Beethoven no less than four times, with I think three different orchestras. There are also live recordings of these symphonies with various other orchestras. That means for any given Beethoven symphony there're at least a half a dozen different recordings to choose between from just one conductor. [Quick overview: the 50s cycle is unremarkable and with bad sound quality; his mid 60s set is his best (there are certainly better cycles, though) while the late 70s cycle is only worth picking through and the digital set in the 80s isn't worth bothering with at all. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that any of these recordings are "bad" per se, just less remarkable than other choices. Any of his four cycles here would be fine to have but if you like the pieces enough to want multiple versions then these - other than the 60s set - probably aren't going to be ones you keep going back to.]
    I kind of get what you are saying here. For the last few years I have been looking around for a copy of Ma Vlast composed by Smetana. According to Wikipedia it is a second cycle of six and that it is a symphonic poem. I want the entire thing as it has a great deal of personal value to me. I have been really confused when I try to purchase it and haven't done so yet because of this. So, I think what you are saying is that one particular conductor may have done this piece multiple times and one may be better than the others, right? Also, if I were to try obtain this particular piece, in your opinion, would an orchestra in Berlin, Hungary, Austria or Prague be better at interpreting the piece because it was written in that particular area and because they have had more experience playing it?

    Opera adds various other layers with conductors and orchestras and different performances but also different casts of singers and productions (especially if you're going to get a DVD of the performance.)
    I have a few operas on cd. I watched the entire Madama Butterfly by Puccini years ago and found it to be the most heartbreaking and sad thing I've ever seen. I then bought a partial of this opera and Angela Gheorghiu was the butterfly (Also Orchestra & Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden). It's gorgeous. Although I have a hard time listening to any operas as friends and co-workers don't care much for it.

    Thank You. I'm going to read the second page of this thread tomorrow...so much good info!

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music


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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    I watched the entire Madama Butterfly by Puccini years ago and found it to be the most heartbreaking and sad thing I've ever seen. I then bought a partial of this opera and Angela Gheorghiu was the butterfly (Also Orchestra & Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden). It's gorgeous. Although I have a hard time listening to any operas as friends and co-workers don't care much for it.

    Thank You. I'm going to read the second page of this thread tomorrow...so much good info!
    You ever seen the movie and/or play M. Butterfly? It functions as a critique and extremely clever riff on Madame Butterfly. I caught it once down in Mountain View. Very awesome imo.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    I kind of get what you are saying here. For the last few years I have been looking around for a copy of Ma Vlast composed by Smetana. According to Wikipedia it is a second cycle of six and that it is a symphonic poem. I want the entire thing as it has a great deal of personal value to me. I have been really confused when I try to purchase it and haven't done so yet because of this. So, I think what you are saying is that one particular conductor may have done this piece multiple times and one may be better than the others, right? Also, if I were to try obtain this particular piece, in your opinion, would an orchestra in Berlin, Hungary, Austria or Prague be better at interpreting the piece because it was written in that particular area and because they have had more experience playing it?
    Ma Vlast is a a set of six symphonic poems. The second of those parts, Vltava or The Moldeau is the most famous and is often played/recorded/released as a stand-alone piece.

    Since you're looking for the whole thing you just want to look for "Ma Vlast" instead of just "The Moldeau," which means you want to make sure the other pieces are there too: Vyšehrad, Šárka, Tabor and so on.

    I wouldn't expect an orchestra from that region to necessarily be any better at the piece than any other.

    From Amazon (just cause that's my default) the recordings I'd consider would be an older mono recording under Kubelik with the Chicago Symphony, a more recent live one under Kubelik done after he returned to Czechoslovakia after years of exile (OK, this is an instance where maybe there are enough regional forces colliding together to mean something.) There's one under Zubin Mehta which I'd look at - it's a studio, digital era recording so the sound should be fantastic - but I do tend to like Kubelik better anyway.

    Most of the ones that come up aren't the right thing (just including one part of the whole) or don't sound terribly exciting. The Mackerras could be good but I've got less history with his recordings and again we'd be talking about old, weaker sound. Furtwangler recorded it and while I love him and I'd want to hear that recording just because I want to hear all his recordings I'm not sure he'd be the man for this piece.

    There are also recordings from von Karajan and Harnoncourt and Levine but those, for me, are the sorts of conductors I settle for rather than search out. I'm probably not being fair to von Karajan but whatever.


    Opera stuff later.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Quote Originally Posted by mountmccabe View Post
    Hmm. Tough to answer succinctly. Quick response to composers most anyone who wants to know/like classical music should know would be Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Tchaikovsky, Schubert. Maybe Mendelssohn, Brahms and Ravel.

    And then hitting ones I personally love (often more than the above) Shostakovich, Sibelius, Mahler, Bruckner and then we start to get to Martinu, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg and Barber and we gotta stop somewhere so yeah.

    Then two days later their doing Mussorgsky's Boris Gudnov... a fantastic 19th century Russian opera. Opera's really an entirely different animal but I'd want to see this.
    WOW! I am very interested in German, Russian and Eastern Europe composers. Are Sibelius, Mahler, Bruckner, Martinu, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg and Barber Russian also?

    OK, decision made. Mussorgsky it is.

    I'm listening to Cello Concerto #1 In E Flat, Op. 107 - 1. Allegretto composed by Shostakovich and I just figured out why I love his music so much. The tension and sense of urgency. Also perhaps the atonality causes that feeling? Oh I just love this stuff.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    WOW! I am very interested in German, Russian and Eastern Europe composers. Are Sibelius, Mahler, Bruckner, Martinu, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg and Barber Russian also?
    None of them are. Sibelius was Finnish; Mahler, Bruckner and Schoenberg were Austrian; Martinu was Czech; Vaughan Williams British and Barber American. All composed in the 20th Century except Bruckner (late 19th, epic late Romantic symphonies taking cues from Bach, Beethoven's 9th and Wagner.)

    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    OK, decision made. Mussorgsky it is.
    I'm not too well versed in Russians but worth hearing are Borodin (19th century, alongside Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov) and standards such as Tchaikvosky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov and Stravinsky.

    The Firebird suite should be pretty good though I like the Rite of Spring and Symphony of Psalms more.

    Quote Originally Posted by devachan View Post
    I'm listening to Cello Concerto #1 In E Flat, Op. 107 - 1. Allegretto composed by Shostakovich and I just figured out why I love his music so much. The tension and sense of urgency. Also perhaps the atonality causes that feeling? Oh I just love this stuff.
    I don't know that Cello concerto but I certainly hear what you're saying about tension and urgency. He had a great sense of drama. And he was enough of a classicist to keep his works approachable (for the most part) but enough of a modernist to find new colors and approaches.

    Not sure what other DSCH you have but his string quartets are heartbreaking and deep (the 8th is revered with good reason; his last several SQs are more devastating.) And then the symphonies... I'd push anyone towards his 10th in e (which uses the same D-S-C-H motif as that Cello Concerto and the 8th quartet) and also have especially kind words for his Babi Yar symphony, the 13th which uses a solo bass and bass chorus.

    Then I'd have to start talking about Mahler.
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Member keriann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    You guys are making me want to see some classical music very very badly.

    Decemberists with LA Phil will have to suffice for now.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    i dunno if thats classical music...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PineapplePete View Post
    i dunno if thats classical music...
    It's not. It's just the closest I will be getting to it any time soon.

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    and mcabe is that a ducks ass in your avatar?

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    business time tessalasset's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    John, I had no idea you had this side to you. It's sexy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ardentbiscuit View Post
    This is the equivalent of musical water boarding.

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    My sister and I used to listen to classical music when we were very young because it had no singing, and for some reason I hated singing in songs for a long time.

    I know absolutely nothing of what I heard all those years other than I liked some much more than others. My sister mentioned something about liking a Spanish composer, but neither she nor I can remember anything beyond that.

    So if any of you classical music buffs know much about some Spanish composers I could try to dredge up that long forgotten music.

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    Dark Lord mountmccabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atom heart View Post
    My sister and I used to listen to classical music when we were very young because it had no singing, and for some reason I hated singing in songs for a long time.

    I know absolutely nothing of what I heard all those years other than I liked some much more than others. My sister mentioned something about liking a Spanish composer, but neither she nor I can remember anything beyond that.

    So if any of you classical music buffs know much about some Spanish composers I could try to dredge up that long forgotten music.
    I just listened to Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez, which might very well be the piece/composer you're thinking of. It's a concerto for orchestra and guitar from 1939. It's very well known. The first track on Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain is an interpretation/version of the second movement of Rodrigo's concerto.

    Even if it's not the piece you're thinking of it's wonderful. He has many other great works as well though I'm less familiar with them.

    I honestly don't know any other Spanish composers except for a requiem by Tomas Luis de Victoria from 1605 (which is not instrumental.)
    Quote Originally Posted by guedita View Post
    I feel like dad-rock wouldn't get so bad of a rep if we called it pop-rock

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    Milkshake suprefan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    I used to play violin, that is all........

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    Brackish African wmgaretjax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    I just listened to Xenakis's "Tetras for String Quartet" and I highly recommend it.

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    My classical collection is a bit weak right now. I have Mahler's 1st and 4th symphony, Ravel's Bolero, and Vivaldi's The Four Seasons (Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Seiji Ozawa...highly recommended)...

    I need to expand my collection and definitely want to listen to more Shostakovich and Sibelius. I also will be checking out the above-mentioned Xenakis. I love string quartets. I like what composers and conductors are able to do with a full orchestra, but I like music for string quartets because it's easier for me to follow one specific instrument without missing out on the overall effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuervoPH View Post
    I love string quartets. I like what composers and conductors are able to do with a full orchestra, but I like music for string quartets because it's easier for me to follow one specific instrument without missing out on the overall effect.
    George Crumb's Black Angels

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    you want me to search for a fuckin gif before i put it up? christ you guys have nothing better to do...

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    Milkshake suprefan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Just giving you s**t Pete.


    If anyone is interested Olivier Messiaen has cool stuff. Jonny Greenwood dropped his name in an interview a few years back so I decided to look into it.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    i didn't know the forum filters out the word shit

  26. #26

    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    wait....it doesnt...why do you use s**t?

    ....anyways it would be s***t

  27. #27
    Milkshake suprefan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    Why do you question such things? And its not s***t, how are there 3 asterisks in a 4 letter word when 2 letters are being hidden?


    Back on topic, go click on Messiaen's name alright?

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    I've got loads on vinyl but haven't been in the mood for a long time. Modeste Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain always scares the shit out of me, it's that good. Pictures at an Exhibition is top too. This was finished off by Rimsky Korsakov as Mussorgsky was a massive pisshead and never really finished anything.

    Check these guys - The Dufay Collective. Not really classical or even baroque, but proper old school medieval English stuff. I wasn't there but I can almost see the kids losing it to the crazy sounds of the serpent.

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    Judgy McMarco TeamCoachellaHellYeah's Avatar
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    Mmmm..maybe with all this talk about Classical stuff we might have some stuff at next years Coachella...I vote for Jonny Greenwood conducting a 25 piece orchestra!!
    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    Reviewers who note the size of the crowd are dumb fucks.
    COACHELLA's: 2001. 2002. 2003. 2004. 2005. 2006. 2007. 2008. 2009. 2010. 2011. 2012. 2013. 2014. 2015.

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    Default Re: Classical, etc music

    i banged yo-yo ma in a mcdonalds bathroom in tennessee.

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