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Thread: The Girls Only Thread

  1. #19171
    Coachella Junkie chairmenmeow47's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    i am on pins and needles waiting for the SCOTUS birth control decision.
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    oh, guess i will be filled with rage all day.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...429.html?hp=bn
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
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  3. #19173
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Fucking hell. I'm scared.
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    You better stop because he can shut down this message board with one call.

  4. #19174
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    i need to find a better article. how the fuck can they stop a jewish company from say not paying for insurance coverage towards car accidents on sunday or christian scientists who don't believe in blood transfusions or whatever religious nonsense prevents people from getting the care they need!?
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    not to mention, wasn't their main argument something about how the birth control was really an abortion, which is totally false? i wish i didn't have an all-day meeting so that i could obsess over this all day.
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  6. #19176
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    AND HOBBY LOBBY USED TO PROVIDE HEALTH CARE WITH BIRTH CONTROL COVERAGE AND THEY PROVIDED FUNDS FOR THAT.

    god this is so retarded.
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  7. #19177
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    point of all this: get some (any) portion of the ACA overturned.
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  8. #19178
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    what's funny is that the ACA idea was touted by republicans. and is just making people want single payer even more than before.
    Last edited by chairmenmeow47; 06-30-2014 at 09:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

  9. #19179
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    god this is so retarded.
    I hope he's listening, because this is some bullshit.

  10. #19180
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    not to mention, wasn't their main argument something about how the birth control was really an abortion, which is totally false? i wish i didn't have an all-day meeting so that i could obsess over this all day.
    I'm 15 pages into the ruling, and it seems to be very limited, and honestly, based on the Religious Freedoms Restoration Act, it seems like it's unfortunately the right response. RFRA requires that, if a law interferes with honestly held religious beliefs, it do so in the least restrictive way. The PPACA had a provision that allows women working at non-profit religious centers to receive government subsidized birth control, rather than employer subsidized. The court ruled that such an approach is the least restrictive approach for small corporations.

    My big issue with this is that they seem to want to suggest that, in this instance, a corporation takes on the character of the corporate founder. However, Citizens United seemed to be very clear in asserting that a corporation has a unique identity in terms of government recognition. As such, the owner's religious beliefs should have no bearing. But, this seems to be a more narrow and less dangerous ruling than people are making it out to be so far. At least based on the case syllabus and the initial sections.
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    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

  11. #19181
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    i feel bad for voting for obama in the primary in 08. Hilary's name is so much harder to pun. that's the true downfall in our political system in the past 6 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
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  12. #19182
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    I'm 15 pages into the ruling, and it seems to be very limited, and honestly, based on the Religious Freedoms Restoration Act, it seems like it's unfortunately the right response. RFRA requires that, if a law interferes with honestly held religious beliefs, it do so in the least restrictive way. The PPACA had a provision that allows women working at non-profit religious centers to receive government subsidized birth control, rather than employer subsidized. The court ruled that such an approach is the least restrictive approach for small corporations.

    My big issue with this is that they seem to want to suggest that, in this instance, a corporation takes on the character of the corporate founder. However, Citizens United seemed to be very clear in asserting that a corporation has a unique identity in terms of government recognition. As such, the owner's religious beliefs should have no bearing. But, this seems to be a more narrow and less dangerous ruling than people are making it out to be so far. At least based on the case syllabus and the initial sections.
    so it was fine when religions, or i'm sorry, companies with a few powerful religious people, were paying less money before birth control was covered by ACA (i assume less anyway), but still contributing as hobby lobby did, but now that they pay a little more it's all of a sudden offensive?

    also we are finding that menstruation is actually harmful to women's bodies in many ways, such as in my case. i ONLY take birth control because it is medically necessary. and i shouldn't have to check with my employer and talk to them about my uterus to get permission.

    the ruling is very narrow, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.
    Last edited by chairmenmeow47; 06-30-2014 at 09:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

  13. #19183
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    The corporations weren't required to provide that birth control, so there was no issue until the PPACA was enacted.

    I can easily see the anger that would come with this ruling, but what they're essentially saying is, if you're a small, closely-held corporation run by people with strong religious beliefs that oppose the use of a treatment, then the government should be the one subsidizing that treatment, not the corporation. I'm of the opinion that it should be a "Tough shit, you do business, you do it in a non-religious forum, deal with it" sort of situation, but based on the way the laws are written this ruling makes sense.
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    Remember Hitler? I don't but here we are again .. cr****

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    so are you saying that before ACA, Hobby Lobby had the right to opt-out of providing birth control as part of health insurance? because they used to. that is what i don't understand.

    i also think the corporation argument is bullshit. you became a corporation to keep your personal funds out of it. in my opinion, that means keep your religion out of it too. it's not like the government is asking you to use YOUR PERSONAL FUNDS, it's the corporation's funds. made up of many people who may not believe what you do, like my flaming homosexual friend who is a manager there.
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

  15. #19185
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    i need to find a better article. how the fuck can they stop a jewish company from say not paying for insurance coverage towards car accidents on sunday or christian scientists who don't believe in blood transfusions or whatever religious nonsense prevents people from getting the care they need!?
    Here's my attempt at a short explanation of a very complicated legal history at the heart of all of this: For years the Supreme Court ruled that if the government took action that inadvertently infringed on someone's sincerely-held religious beliefs, the government had to show that they had a compelling interest for doing so, and that they had used the least restrictive means to accomplish that compelling interest. So the state of South Carolina couldn't deny unemployment benefits to a Seventh Day Adventist because they didn't want to work on Saturday, and the state of Wisconsin couldn't force the Amish to send their children to public schools. In each of those cases, the Court ruled that the government could have accomplished its goals by choosing another policy that was less restrictive of religious freedom. That all changed in 1990 because of a decision called Employment Division v. Smith, where the Court ruled that the old test no longer applied, and that a new one would take its place. The new rule essentially said that as long as the government has a compelling interest in whatever it did, the government won, so long as the purpose of the government's action was not to specifically discriminate against religious practice. Thus, neutral laws of general applicability do not violate free exercise of religion, and Native Americans who took peyote for religious purposes could be denied unemployment compensation after they were fired for taking the drugs. Essentially the Smith decision shifted the burden in free exercise cases from the government to the person claiming an exemption from a law. The Smith decision was very controversial, and in response, Congress passed a law called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), that among other things, essentially told the courts that they had to interpret free exercise cases in the old way that they used to prior to Smith. After RFRA was passed, the Supreme Court has held that at least as regards federal laws, RFRA forces it to examine religious exemption cases under the older, pre-Smith standard, meaning that the government has to show it had a compelling interest in the regulation and used the least restrictive means to achieve the interest.

    So the analysis by the Court today was that the contraceptive mandate -- even though it serves as a compelling government interest -- is unlawful as applied to (closely held) corporations with religious objections to the mandate because it doesn't use the least restrictive means. The court suggests that government could have picked up the tab for contraceptive coverage itself, or that it could have created an accommodation similar to the one the law already provides for non-profit religious corporations so that the employees could get contraceptive coverage without the employer directly paying for it. Because these other alternatives (theoretically) exist, the government didn't use the least restrictive means to accomplish its goal, and therefore the mandate violates Hobby Lobby's religious freedom as protected by RFRA.

    Now there are plenty of flaws in this analysis, and I think the decision was deeply flawed, but the reason the other more extreme examples you brought up wouldn't work as lawful exceptions is because in all of those the government should be able to show a) a compelling interest in not allowing a religious exemption from the law, and b) that is used the least restrictive means possible in achieving the compelling interest. Additionally, the more extreme you get out, the less likely the courts will find that a plaintiff has a religious interest in whatever it is they're trying to do. Now I personally don't think a person can sincerely claim that another person using an IUD under an insurance policy that you provide violates their religious freedom, but that's just one area where my reasoning is very different than the Court's.
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  16. #19186
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    well that's the problem too, their argument about IUD's being abortion were wrong. and again, why wasn't this a problem when hobby lobby provided insurance with birth control before ACA? why do they get to be a corporation to protect themselves personally, but bring their personal opinions into the mix?

    and the arguments do matter. from what i saw, the court went out of its way to state that transfusions would not be affected. because this has to do with women and babies, all of a sudden religion matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

  17. #19187
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    However, Citizens United seemed to be very clear in asserting that a corporation has a unique identity in terms of government recognition. As such, the owner's religious beliefs should have no bearing. But, this seems to be a more narrow and less dangerous ruling than people are making it out to be so far. At least based on the case syllabus and the initial sections.
    The part in this analysis that upsets me is that the Court invents the "closely-held" distinction out of whole cloth, almost as if they created it so that they plaintiffs (and all others who would think of bringing a challenge) could win, while still preserving their ability to look reasonable and avoid a Citizens United 2 "corporations are people" thing that they would get pilloried for. It's such unimaginable bullshit by the same people who claim textual fidelity to the plain meaning of laws.
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    so are you saying that before ACA, Hobby Lobby had the right to opt-out of providing birth control as part of health insurance? because they used to. that is what i don't understand.
    there was nothing to opt out of before. they didn't have to provide any kind of health insurance. the mandate is what they 'dislike'. and by dislike, i mean nobama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    well that's the problem too, their argument about IUD's being abortion were wrong. and again, why wasn't this a problem when hobby lobby provided insurance with birth control before ACA? why do they get to be a corporation to protect themselves personally, but bring their personal opinions into the mix?

    and the arguments do matter. from what i saw, the court went out of its way to state that transfusions would not be affected. because this has to do with women and babies, all of a sudden religion matters.
    Agreed. This case was pure, raging conservative id and is like a greatest hits of the Roberts Court all in one decision: corporations over labor, Christian white male culture war resentment, religion over secularism, and blows against contraception and Obamacare. What’s not to love for them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart cooks brain View Post
    there was nothing to opt out of before. they didn't have to provide any kind of health insurance. the mandate is what they 'dislike'. and by dislike, i mean nobama.
    BUT THEY DID PROVIDE HEALTH INSURANCE.

    whatever, people can argue all the loopholes, but that doesn't make this any less bullshit. both towards woman and the whole corporate personhood concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miroir Noir View Post
    Agreed. This case was pure, raging conservative id and is like a greatest hits of the Roberts Court all in one decision: corporations over labor, Christian white male culture war resentment, religion over secularism, and blows against contraception and Obamacare. What’s not to love for them?
    agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
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  22. #19192
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    what's curious to me is how it is decided that a corporation is ''closely-held'' and that the religious beliefs are ''sincerely-held''.
    Last edited by heart cooks brain; 06-30-2014 at 09:51 AM.
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  23. #19193
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    so are you saying that before ACA, Hobby Lobby had the right to opt-out of providing birth control as part of health insurance? because they used to. that is what i don't understand.
    They did. They weren't required to provide health insurance at all, and what they did provide was completely their choice. And, for all we know, if they provided it prior to the change of law, they may continue to do so and they may have just brought this challenge because they're five year olds and you can't tell them what to do.
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  24. #19194
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmenmeow47 View Post
    BUT THEY DID PROVIDE HEALTH INSURANCE.

    whatever, people can argue all the loopholes, but that doesn't make this any less bullshit. both towards woman and the whole corporate personhood concept.
    oh, i agree with you completely. i'm just trying to answer your question.

    am i right in thinking, based on this least restrictive means that picking up a birth control prescription will come at the same cost to the user tomorrow as it did yesterday, and that the percentage that was paid by your health insurance is nowpicked up by the government?

    also, will premiums for women go down?
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
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    Eat don't chat ...When I figure out what windlowless is, I'll respond .
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  25. #19195
    Coachella Junkie Miroir Noir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Per the IRS, closely held corporations have more than 50% of the value of their outstanding stock owned (directly or indirectly) by 5 or fewer individuals at any time during the last half of the tax year. And yes, some pretty huge corporations (including Hobby Lobby!) qualify as closely-held.

    The sincere religious belief question was kind of elided. In cases involving real people, it's easy to establish a record of sincere belief in a trial or motion hearing -- you have the person explain the beliefs, how they came to them, etc. etc. In this new world of corporate personhood, I think it is a far more difficult question to establish what the company's religious beliefs are. The majority opinion even admits that partners in a closely held corporation can and do disagree. But for the purpose the case before it, the Court found that Hobby Lobby's family owners had established a clear record of sincere religious belief that several of the types of covered contraception were akin to abortion.
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  26. #19196
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    They did. They weren't required to provide health insurance at all, and what they did provide was completely their choice. And, for all we know, if they provided it prior to the change of law, they may continue to do so and they may have just brought this challenge because they're five year olds and you can't tell them what to do.
    thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by heart cooks brain View Post
    oh, i agree with you completely. i'm just trying to answer your question.

    am i right in thinking, based on this least restrictive means that picking up a birth control prescription will come at the same cost to the user tomorrow as it did yesterday, and that the percentage that was paid by your health insurance is nowpicked up by the government?

    also, will premiums for women go down?
    good question. in ginsberg's dissent she noted that IUD's can cost an entire month's pay if you're on minimum wage.

    and i always though the "sincere religious belief" is basically so you can't say "i just created this religion so that i can shoot heroin".
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  27. #19197
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    does that mean each individual company has to sue to establish an exemption?
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  28. #19198
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    For practical purposes, I think what it means at this point is that the administration has to grant an exemption to any closely-held company that requests one, or it will draft a new policy to provide accommodations. I think the administration could test the limits of this more if it wanted to, but given the significant loss here and the goal of actually getting contraceptive coverage to women, they will try to work something new out rather than inviting a new round of litigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by canexplain View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomAz View Post
    It's hard to argue with that.

  29. #19199
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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    Corporate Religious Liberty.

    I don't even know how to process that that is....a thing.

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    Default Re: The Girls Only Thread

    ok, so in further reading, i see that before the ACA, hobby lobby tried to stop providing the drugs they don't agree with. plan B isn't really an abortion from my understanding, it's conception prevention. it's similar to taking a bunch of birth control within a few days of unprotected sex. my understanding of plan B has always been that if you have already conceived, it won't work. that's why you only have a few days to take it. so why are we letting hobby lobby have incorrect beliefs that conflict with actual science?
    Quote Originally Posted by malcolmjamalawesome View Post
    It's when we discuss Coachella that we are at our collective dipshittiest.

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