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Thread: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

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    Coachella Junkie rage patton's Avatar
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    Default A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Before I began reading the books, I suggested someone start a thread dedicated to the books because I had a major plot point spoiled for me in our GoT thread. No one did. I, however, just finished all 5 books and want to talk about stuff beyond the show (aka spoilers for Game of Thrones) as well as theories, and don't want to fill our GoT thread up with this kind of in depth detail.

    WARNING: This thread is dark and full of spoilers... from all the current novels of the A Song of Ice and Fire series. Be aware and do not continue to read if you don't want Game of Thrones to be spoiled for you.

    To start, it is known A Feast for Crows (AFfC) and A Dance With Dragons (ADwD) are not as well paced as previous 3 books in the series. However, there are still some very exciting plot point and twists and turns to be found in the books and we can finally see all the story lines closing in on one another. Pretty much every storyline in books 4 and 5 end with a cliffhanger, so I don't quite know where to start... so let's start with Jon Snow.

    Is Jon Snow dead? His final chapter leaves you every reason to think he is, but I am not quite sure George RR Martin is done with him yet. GRRM has done the "dead/ not really" fake out several times (Davos, Arya, Asha, Tyrion... Stannis??? Let's get to that later though), and this could be another. Jon Snow's death would leave the wall without a POV character and the Wall is in a complete state of chaos as Jon Snow gets stabbed. Unless, that is, Melisandre becomes the main POV character at the Wall, and I don't see as likely.

    Personally, I think we will find Jon Snow is still alive, but badly wounded. As far as we know, Bowen Marsh and Wick were the only attackers, if there were more, they were likely Stewards - Marsh had no sway over the Rangers. So, it is possible a ranger might have saved him. A theory I have read that I like is that Jon Snow had to undergo serious physical trauma to awaken his full warging capabilities. Like Bran's fall led to the events of him discovering he was a greenseer, Jon Snow may now be on the same path. The implication of this leds to the hints that Jon Snow may warg into a dragon.

    Speaking of Dragons, lets talk about Jon Snow's parents. This is a well known theory and one I personally believe, so I will just put it out there. Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Tagaryen and Lyanna Stark. First, lets get this out of the way. Ned Stark is not Jon Snow's father. Ned never refers to Jon as a "son," but only "my blood." Bran's vision through the Weirwood tree of Ned in the past is also another hint. That and Sean Bean in a recent interview said "Ned is obviously not Jon's father, so they still have to get to the bottom of that matter." Second, at this point, I think it is pretty obvious Rhaegar is not the bad guy Robert Baratheon painted him out to be. In fact, Westeros seems like it would be a lot better of a place had Rhaegar become King. Knowing what we know about Rhaegar now, it seems uncharacteristic of him to "steal" Lyanna stark, rape her, and leave her to die. The much more likely scenario is that Lyanna, being betrothed to Robbert - a man who we now know Lyanna hated, willingly ran away with Rhaegar because they were in love. When the war broke out and Rhaegar had to go to battle, he left Lyanna to be protected by his 4 best men in the Tower of Joy. When Ned Stark shows up to "rescue" his sister he brings 7 men and the only men to survive the battle are himself and his friend Howland Reed. When they get to the top, all we know is Lyanna is dying in a pool of blood and promises Ned he has to keep a secret. We still don't know how Lyanna died or what that secret was... but this theory suggests Lyanna was pregnant and died giving birth. The secret was that he could never tell anyone that this child was the son of Rhaegar Targaryen... the boy Ned named Jon Snow. This theory explains many things. First off, how Lyanna died. Second, the questions as to how the honourable Ned Stark could break one of his oaths. The answer? He never did. Third, a further explanation as to why Ned got so upset over Robert wanting to pursue and kill Danny. That is, if Robert had a blood lust for Targaryen's again, if Jon Snow was found out, his blood would be on the table as well. And, finally, why Howland Reed sent Jojen and Mera to swear fealty to Bran instead of himself. Howland Reed would have known the secret to and this would explain why Howland Reed had gone into hiding since the rebellion. Obviously, this is a lot to take in and could prove to be false, but of all the theories out there, this one makes the most sense. It would also make Jon Snow the manifestation of the title of the series. A Song of Ice and Fire.

    Lets talk about Daenarys next. Dany's storyline in the books is full of vision and prophecies. One of the earliest being the House of the Undying in Quarth with one of the most significant vision's so far was foretelling the death of Rob Stark at the Red Wedding. One of the most exciting and discussion stirring events in the House of the Undying is Danny being told that "the dragon has three heads." Obviously, Danny is one of the heads and the implication here is that she will need to find 2 other people with the blood of the Dragon in them to help her take back Westeros. This has led to much discussion of who the other 2 will be. The book obviously was hinting big time at Quentyn Martell and it seemed to prove true until the last minute... when he was torched by Rhaegal. So, who could the other two be? Most people think Jon Snow is the main contender. This would obviously depend on a) him not being dead and b) he is the son of Rhaegar. The other is Tyrion and this one is a lot more contentious, as this could possibly depend on him being revealed as a Targaryen. So let's talk about that for a minute...

    The case for Tyrion being a Targaryen...

    - Tyrion's fascination and dreaming of dragons as a child (which seems to be similar to dreams shared by Targaryens)
    - Tywin's intense dislike of him, even before his first sexual misadventure with Tysha.
    - Tywin's tense departure from King's Landing as King and his brooding over the 'wrongs that Aerys did him'. (aka Aerys rapped Joanna - Tywin's wife)
    - The fact that we are told that Aerys 'envied' Tywin.
    - The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.
    - Tyrion's mismatched eye colors.
    - Tywin's comment that he could not prove Tyrion is not his son, and the fact his final words are in fact, you are not my son.

    I'm not sure I am inclined to believe this one, because Tywin's final words to Jaime are also "You are not my son." That, and when Jaime is in the riverlands trying to secure Riverrun, his relative who is married to a Frey (her name starts with a G and is his aunt? or cousin? I can't remember) tells him "Tyrion is Tywin's true son." Of course, this comment could more have to do with the fact Tyrion was clever and a thinker like Tywin, unlike Jaime who is quick and brash, but nonetheless, I think it counts against this theory.

    The next most obvious candidate is Young Griff, revealed to be the thought-to-be-dead Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhegar Targaryen. Aegon does seem to be a prime candidate for this, but the vast majority of readers seem to believe Aegon is a fraud and not actually a Targaryen. Most of this belief comes from Quaithe's warning's to Danny. A reminder...

    "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal".

    The Kraken and dark flame are Victarion and Moqorro. The Lion and Griffin are Tyrion and Jon Connington, The sun's son is Quentyn and the Mummer's dragon is... not known. But assumed to be Aegon by many. Aside from Quaithe's warning, there is an extremely elaborate and well flushed out theory in regards to who Aegon actually is. I will attempt to make a long story short. It all starts after the Blackfyre Rebellion. One female Blackfyre survived and was known to become a slave in Lys and had two children - a boy and a girl. The girl became a bed slave and the son a mummer. The son was eventually castrated and set free. He bought his sister's freedom and she married her brother's best friend. The two had a baby and after, the mummer and his best friend started plotting to put that boy on the Iron Throne.

    The castrated mummer in this story is Lord Varys and his best friend is Illyrio Mopatis. The story goes that fate dealt them a lucky hand when The Mountain smashed Rhaegars son's face against the wall so badly he was impossible to be recognized, lending credence to their plan of later having Illyrio's son lay claim to being Aegon Targaryen. For what its worth, this theory also purports that Aegon doesn't even know he is fraud - nor does Jon Connington - and their plan hinges on neither of them finding out the truth.

    This theory is, of course, based on a lot of speculation and "what if's," though, and is just as likely to not be true as it could be true. With that being said, the important thing is that either way, Aegon has the blood of the dragon running in his veins.

    To get back on track, lets look to another possibility - Victarion Greyjoy. While Victarion does not have the blood of the dragon in him, the horn given to him by Euron is told to be able to control dragons. It is possible he will use this horn to take one of Danny's dragons and use this to take her as his bride.

    Another possibility is Euron Crowseye. We don't know much about Euron at this point, other than that he is clever, villainous (but do we really know that? We only know about him through the viewpoints of the Damphair, Victarion, and Asha), that he has warlock friends, drinks Shade of the Evening, and has been to Ashaii and back. But from what we do know, it seems likely he would betray Victarion and take one of the dragons for himself.

    Now, I know we just discussed Tyrion possibly being a Targaryen, but there are also theories out there claiming Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryen's as well, and that Jamie not only could be one of the heads of the dragon, but Azhor Azai himself.

    Once again, the theory goes that Aerys raped Joanna, but this theory suggests the rape happened earlier and that the rape resulted in Jamie and Cersei. This theory helps explains Cersei's increasing fragile mental state and her descent into madness (it followed the same patterns as that of Aerys) and of the cruel and evil tendencies of Joffry. It would also cause, as mentioned earlier, Tywin's comment to Jamie "You are not my son" and the "Tryion is the true son of Tywin" comment. As for Azhor Azai? This comes from the speculation that Jaime may "temper" his blade in the blood of Cersei (or, perhaps, Brienne) and be reborn as Azor Ahai. This theory is a little too out there for me, but it is worth discussing.

    Some have suggested Bran may be one of the dragon riders and much of this comes from obscure hints and clues in the book stretched incredibly thin, as well as Bran's visions in Season 4 of Game of Thrones, where there is dragon flying over King's Landing. To me, even before I read the books, I had the theory that Bran would, at some point warg into a dragon, but Bran being a head of the dragon doesn't seem likely to me.

    Arienne Martel is another I have read some suggested, but to me this mostly stems from the fact she is a strong and powerful women with large ambitions who empathizes with Danny. I do not doubt Arienne and Danny could possibly join forces in the future (if Danny is smart, she will head for Dorne first), but I don't see Arienne as one of the dragon heads.

    Am I missing anyone? No? Ok. Moving on. Stannis. Is he dead? The first thing to look at is the letter itself - the letter to Jon Snow, that is. Ramsay typically wrote his letters in blood and sent a body part or some flayed skin along with his message. This letter was noted to have been written in Ink and there was no body parts or flayed skin. So, we don't know it was Ramsay who wrote it. I, personally, think it was written by Ramsay, due to the way he uses the word "bastard" (and Ramsay's known distain for that word), as well as his demand for "Reek" to return. We know that Theon has escaped with fake Arya (aka Jayne Poole) and presumed to be held by Stannis. However, the writer of this letter seems to think that Reek has fled for, or been captured by, The Wall. This raises some eyebrows. He also claims to have Mance being held in a cage in a coat of the 6 "whores" (see: spearwives) who went with him. It would appear he does hold Mance, or else how would he know about the exact number of the spearwives with him? I was thinking about this though... what if he heard about Mance approaching and found out how many were with him... and the man held in a cage is actually the singer Abel, and the six "whores" are actually his washerwomen (for a refresher, these are the people who convinced Theon to join them to rescue and free fake Arya). The writer of the letter also claims the battle lasted 7 days. 7 days? That does not sound like a boast from a victor of a bloody battle. We know Roose's hold was coming loose at every seem last time we were inside Winterfell with Bolton's host. We also know Stannis' men were dying, and quickly, out frozen in the snow. How could the battle last 7 days? Last of all, he claims Stannis is dead. If Stannis were really dead, wouldn't they have sent a token with the letter? Neither Roose not Ramsay would except anything less than Stannis' head to prove he was dead, so this seem suspicious.

    I don't think Stannis is dead, but I am open to arguments otherwise. I don't think Stannis will ever sit the iron throne, but I think he still has a role to play going forward.

    Let's switch gears now and talk about Sam. How would have thunk the best chapter is the book to follow the brilliant A Storm of Swords would be one of Sam's chapters? The chapter I am talking about is when Sam is in Bravos and he goes to fight Darion (the singer) and accidentally runs into Arya, yet neither know who the other is. But that is not what is to focus on here. Instead, I want to talk about the revelation at the end of the final chapter of AFfC where the boy in the room reveals himself to same to be "Pate, like the pig boy." Pate, of course, being the seemingly pointless POV character in the prologue of AFfC. One has to assume that the boy who reveals himself to Sam to not actually be Pate, but a faceless man. The descriptions are not exactly the same, but a comparison of the mystery man who kills Pate in the prologue roughly matches the description of Jaqen H'ghar after he changes faces in front of Arya in ACoK. If it is Jaqen H'ghar, what business does he have in Oldtown? Is it business of the faceless men and the Many-Faced god? Or is it personal business? I am not sure where this is leading, so any ideas or theories would be appreciated. In any case, I have a feeling Arya will become involved with this plot soon.

    And, finally, lets talk about religion. What the fuck is up with R'hllor? (Aka The Lord of Light aka The Red God) So far, of all the gods in the series, "he" is the only one to show his power. Anyone have any theories about this?
    Last edited by rage patton; 10-30-2014 at 01:00 AM.
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Jon Snow is going to spend some time in Ghost and then come back. Melissandre says she say a man, a wolf, and then a man again. It makes more sense than jumping straight to a dragon because when Jon killed the warg when he was with Halfhand, it's presumed that the warg became the Hawk and ripped up his face. Then in the prologue for ADwD, when the Wildling skinchanger (I think his name was 'Sixskins') dies he becomes his wolf. Jon Snow is going to spend some time inside Ghost and then Melissandre is going to bring him back or he's going to wake up badly wounded like you said comparable to Bran's revelation.

    Also, up until now, do you think any of the Starks (including Jon Snow) have really realized that it's their direwolves in their dreams? Except for Bran obviously. It just seems to me that none of them really think they're anything but dreams.

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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Regarding Jon Snow, I agree with righteousdnk. I feel what is most likely is Jon Snow enters Snow's body for a time and Melissandre helps him back into his real body, which she healed.

    Also, I do not think the rest of the Stark kids yet realize they are skinwalking in their wolves.
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    the only thing that confuses me about Jon Snow being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar is the few references that have been made to Wylla (right?) about her being Ned's maiden and him fathering her. There's the discussion with Robert and Ned in the first book, and then one of the kids by the river talks to Arya about Wylla being Jon Snow's mother too - at least something like that, it's been a while since I read them now
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    I subscribe to the L + R = J theory and believe Eddard sold the deception Wylla was Jon's mother to Catelyn and the rest of Westeros with the truth of his war time infidelity with Wylla.
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Appreciate you starting this thread, rage patton. GRRM’s books that are being turned into an ok, but not great, HBO series, are my favorite of the genre, which I started reading back in the 60s and 70s with LOTR and Lin Carter’s great anthologies and old masters like Clark Ashton Smith and James Branch Cabell and so on.

    A Song of Ice and Fire is full of flaws, no doubt, especially in books 4 and 5, but to me it is still at the pinnacle of the modern fantasy genre. Like millions of others, I just hope Martin gets it finished.

    I’ll comment more later when I have time, but for now I want to say that I believe you are dead-on with Jon Snow’s parentage, and you are further correct that Jon Snow is the personal manifestation of Ice and Fire – a Stark and a Targaryen, the chief character of the Wall of ice, who will be tied closely (through Melisandre) to R’hllor, an apparently very real and powerful god of fire, by whose agency Jon will be brought back to life (I do think he has been killed, not just grievously wounded). How that will work with the fact that Jon is a warg connected to Ghost, I don’t know. Jon and Dany seem likely to be the two most important people of that world in the coming existential battle with the Others, though it makes sense that there is a third – to match Dany’s three dragons – who would also be as important. As you wrote, lots of clues and theories on who that may be.

    Not sure if this is the best forum for this, though (there are others, including those devoted strictly to the series, like A Forum of Ice and Fire, the long-standing forum at asoiaf.westeros.org). Too many threads here get so full of the vitriol and acrimony that seems to be the raison d'être of a number of denizens – particularly a set of old-time Coachella board grandees and their many sycophants. What’re the odds they don’t show up here with their trademark nastiness and piss all over the discussion? We’ll see, I suppose.

    By the way, if you don’t know the shorter series (just two books) The King of Ys written by Poul Anderson (together with his wife, Karen) I highly recommend. It’s an excellent melding of historical fiction and fantasy, and it’s the sword-and-sorcery series HBO should have done instead of Ice and Fire, not least because it’s finished. In many ways it's as "gritty" as Ice and Fire, and it’s got four volumes across the two books that would fit perfectly in four HBO seasons.

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    Coachella Junkie rage patton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Quote Originally Posted by righteousdnk View Post
    Jon Snow is going to spend some time in Ghost and then come back. Melissandre says she say a man, a wolf, and then a man again. It makes more sense than jumping straight to a dragon because when Jon killed the warg when he was with Halfhand, it's presumed that the warg became the Hawk and ripped up his face. Then in the prologue for ADwD, when the Wildling skinchanger (I think his name was 'Sixskins') dies he becomes his wolf. Jon Snow is going to spend some time inside Ghost and then Melissandre is going to bring him back or he's going to wake up badly wounded like you said comparable to Bran's revelation.

    Also, up until now, do you think any of the Starks (including Jon Snow) have really realized that it's their direwolves in their dreams? Except for Bran obviously. It just seems to me that none of them really think they're anything but dreams.
    At this point, I don't think Arya or Jon Snow realize they are more than dreams. Jon may have an slight inkling, but I think Arya has no idea. Which makes the chapter where Arya has her wolf dream and discovers Cat's body all the more heartbreaking. I think Lady's death and how it affected Sansa is going to have a big role to play in The Winds of Winter.

    As for Jon warging into Ghost while his body recovers, I think that makes the most sense. Or else what was the point of the Varamir Sixskins prologue? As for Melisandre... let me get to that in a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by clleadz View Post
    the only thing that confuses me about Jon Snow being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar is the few references that have been made to Wylla (right?) about her being Ned's maiden and him fathering her. There's the discussion with Robert and Ned in the first book, and then one of the kids by the river talks to Arya about Wylla being Jon Snow's mother too - at least something like that, it's been a while since I read them now
    Quote Originally Posted by fikus222 View Post
    I subscribe to the L + R = J theory and believe Eddard sold the deception Wylla was Jon's mother to Catelyn and the rest of Westeros with the truth of his war time infidelity with Wylla.
    I agree that the whole "Wylla" thing is just a rouse to distract readers. Remember another deception is Ashara Dayne, remember. Her name hadn't been mentioned since book 1, but was brought up again in one of Ser Baristan's chapters towards the end of ADwD. I think GRRM knows many people are on to the R+L=J theory, so he is trying to keep up the deceptions. I will be surprised if Jon's parentage is not revealed in the Winds of Winter. But how? I know some people have theorized Bran will have a vision through a weirwood tree and reveal it to Jon (perhaps even through a psychic link?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DFH no.6 View Post
    Appreciate you starting this thread, rage patton. GRRM’s books that are being turned into an ok, but not great, HBO series, are my favorite of the genre, which I started reading back in the 60s and 70s with LOTR and Lin Carter’s great anthologies and old masters like Clark Ashton Smith and James Branch Cabell and so on.

    A Song of Ice and Fire is full of flaws, no doubt, especially in books 4 and 5, but to me it is still at the pinnacle of the modern fantasy genre. Like millions of others, I just hope Martin gets it finished.

    I’ll comment more later when I have time, but for now I want to say that I believe you are dead-on with Jon Snow’s parentage, and you are further correct that Jon Snow is the personal manifestation of Ice and Fire – a Stark and a Targaryen, the chief character of the Wall of ice, who will be tied closely (through Melisandre) to R’hllor, an apparently very real and powerful god of fire, by whose agency Jon will be brought back to life (I do think he has been killed, not just grievously wounded). How that will work with the fact that Jon is a warg connected to Ghost, I don’t know. Jon and Dany seem likely to be the two most important people of that world in the coming existential battle with the Others, though it makes sense that there is a third – to match Dany’s three dragons – who would also be as important. As you wrote, lots of clues and theories on who that may be.

    Not sure if this is the best forum for this, though (there are others, including those devoted strictly to the series, like A Forum of Ice and Fire, the long-standing forum at asoiaf.westeros.org). Too many threads here get so full of the vitriol and acrimony that seems to be the raison d'être of a number of denizens – particularly a set of old-time Coachella board grandees and their many sycophants. What’re the odds they don’t show up here with their trademark nastiness and piss all over the discussion? We’ll see, I suppose.

    By the way, if you don’t know the shorter series (just two books) The King of Ys written by Poul Anderson (together with his wife, Karen) I highly recommend. It’s an excellent melding of historical fiction and fantasy, and it’s the sword-and-sorcery series HBO should have done instead of Ice and Fire, not least because it’s finished. In many ways it's as "gritty" as Ice and Fire, and it’s got four volumes across the two books that would fit perfectly in four HBO seasons.
    Ok. Melisandre. This entire series Melisandre has been shown to us as a dark force. She can create shadows that kill. She sees visions in her flames. She offers live sacrifices by fire. R'hllor, by association, is seen to us as dark as well. However, R'hllor, as of right now, is the only "god" who has shown us any power in the series. The most evident is Thoros of Myr rising Ser Beric multiple times and Moqorros healing Victarions hand to full strength. The darkest being Lady Stoneheart and Cat becoming a twisted parody of herself. (The most coincidental being the death of Rob, Joffrey, and Balon? Or, was that truly the work of R'hllor?) Anyways, where I am going with this is Melisandre continues to frame R'hllor as the "good guy" and "The Great Other" as the bad guy. But what do we know about The Great Other? Not much from the ASoIaF series, but from the extra material surrounding it (I have been told, anyways) we can be led to believe The Great Other uses ice magic, while R'hllor uses fire magic. We can also be led to believe that "The Great Other" may in fact be the old gods of the North. In Melisandre's chapter in ADwD, she see's a vision of weirwood trees with many faces and we can believe she saw Bran in her vision and that Bran was an enemy. We are also lead to believe that "The Others" (aka White Walkers) use a twisted kind of ice magic... but who are they? Where do they come from? What do they want?

    What I am getting at here is GRRM presents us with a number of simple thematic dichotomies. Ice/ Fire. R'hllor/ The Great Other. The Drowned God/ The Storm God. Dragons/ White Walkers. Winter/ Summer. Good/ Evil. This seem strange because his characters are complex and all exist in grey areas. What I think we are going to see happen in books 6 and 7 is the breakdown of these thematic barriers. Maybe R'hllor and The Great Other are not opposites or two different gods... but two sides of the same coin. In the end of the series, I suspect to bring order to the world again (because now we have seen Essos is being thrown in chaos as well as Westeros), Ice and Fire will have to join forces to bring balance to a world that has been thrown out of wack. For example, Melisandre says her powers are stronger than ever at the Wall... yet her powers come from fire. Somehow, the ice magic gives her strength. Another symbolic way to bring balance would be the Starks and Targaryen's joining forces, but I don't think GRRM will make it that simple either.

    But lets get back to Melisandre for a second. I, for one, hope Jon is not dead, but simply gravely wounded. If he was dead and requires Melisandre's magic to heal him... who knows how he will come back. Beric Dondarion knew he should never have come back, let alone the 6 or 7 times he was raised. Then when he gave the kiss of life to Cat, look at how she came back. What will happen to Jon if he is revived by Melisandre's magic? Again, there is not clear cut line on weather Melisandre and R'hllor are "good guys" or "bad guys," but from what we have seen, when the Lord of Light's magic is used to revive someone, the results are not always pretty.

    As for the TV show, I still think it is pretty top notch TV and very enjoyable... but season 4 suffered from pacing issues. The most painful being waiting for Tyrions trial, followed by the wait for Prince Oberyn's fight against the mountain. Season 5 is supposedly tackling books 4 AND 5 and will be removing a wealth of characters from the story (reportedly, the entire Iron Islander's subplot as well as Lady Stoneheart herself), and the Dorne plot will be spiced up (no pun intended) by adding Jaime into the mix. I think these changes may actually benefit the show and, hopefully, lead to more well paced and entertaining season 5.

    With that being said, I think the TV show has improved on a few things from the book - most notably the relationship between The Hound and Arya. The show developed it a lot better and I think gives you a better feel for Arya's headspace leading to her departure for Bravos. Also, The Hound was one of my favourite characters in the TV series and I felt the books didn't flush out his character as well. He is the absolutely perfect anti-hero. As such, I found his death in the books to be incredibly anti-climactic. The TV series' battle between him and Brienne on the other hand was excellent and much more worthy death. Also, Oberyn's death while reading it was still shocking... but nothing compared to fury, rage, confusion, and disappointment I felt while watching the show. But I digress.

    Also, I have never heard of The King of Y's, but I will certainly look into it. Thank you for the recommendation!
    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    And it's been long established that Chris hates fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatinisbad View Post
    I took my niece this year and it was her first Coachella. It was so fun to see it through her eyes. She thought it felt like a magical scene from Shreck. The one where all the fairy tale creatures meet for the first time in Shreck's swamp.

  8. #8
    Coachella Junkie rage patton's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Thread of Ice and Fire: A Dance with Spoilers (and theories!)

    Has anyone been reading The World of Ice & Fire? I don't consider the things I am going to discuss in this post spoilers (as all of it has to do with events that have - or haven't - already happened in the past), but I think the book is providing, along with insight and depth of detail, some huge foreshadowing of events and character arcs to come. I would like to know some other's thoughts on some of this stuff

    The Biggest Theme of ASoIaF: History Repeats Itself
    All throughout the 5 books so far, we have heard bits and pieces of events in the past and how the unfolded and how they parallel the events that are currently unfolding in the series. There is a Chapter in A Feast for Crows in which Asha goes to House Harlaw to drum up support for her claim to the Seastone Chair. There Rodrick Harlaw (Rodrick the Reader) tell Asha he believes time is like a wheel in which certain events are doomed to repeat themselves - although sometimes in unexpected ways. I think this is GRRM giving readers his M.O. and telling us that, with enough dissection, we can figure out where his story is going. Here are some examples of events of the past that are, or likely will, going to play/ currently playing a huge part in the saga.
    - The Bolton's rising against House Stark: The feud is long and bloody and The Bolton's part in orchestrating the Red Wedding and their taking of Winterfell is just the latest part.
    - The Dance of Dragons: There is a significant chunk of time elaborating on the Dance of Dragons in The World of Ice and Fire. Coles notes version: The civil war in House Targaryen which pitted Aegon II and Queen Rheanyra against each other for the Iron Throne. The events of this likely highlight what will happen between Aegon (aka Young Griff) and Daenerys, once she reaches Westeros.
    - The Blackfyre Rebellions: If the theories about Varys backstory and Aegon’s true identity prove to be correct, there may come to be a 5th Blackfyre Rebellion
    Danny’s silimarities to Aegon the Conqueror: An obvious one - Coming from the east to take over and unite the West with her two other “sister-wives” aka fulfilling the prophecy that “the dragon has 3 heads”
    - The union of House Targaryen and House Stark: The Old King Jaehaerys I (The Concilitator) proposed a marriage to finally unite House Stark and House Targaryen, but there was a death (I forget who right now) and the union never came to pass. This could foreshadow the reveal of the popular theory that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
    - The Azor Ahai prophecy: There are multiple theories as to who Azor Ahai reborn will be, but the one thing everyone agrees on is that Melisandre has the wrong guy. It won’t be Stannis. The most popular theory is Jon Snow, but I also like the theories that it could be Brienne, Jaime, Danny, or even Jorah.
    - Cersei is the second coming of King Aerys II (The Mad King): We see in A Feast For Crows Cersei’s complete descent into madness. From the the accounts we have of King Aerys II, Cersei’s madness seems to follow in similar steps. Plus we have her obsession with fire (burning down the Hand’s Tower) and her talk of building a new “White Castle” away from the “stink” of King’s Landing mirrors Aerys II comments of building a new “White City” away from the “stink” of King’s Landing.
    - There are more too, but these are some of the significant ones for now, I think

    A Dragon in Winterfell
    Through out the series there are hints and references to a “Dragon in Winterfell.” Some theories believe there is a mythical ice dragon living underneath Winterfell, others believe it is a dormant fire dragon, but most believe this is another symbol foreshadowing Jon Snow being the “Dragon in Winterfell.” Either way, The World of Ice and Fire references the legends not once, but twice so I think this is worth noting.
    - The first reference was to the Hot Springs of Winterfell and how local legend says a dragon sleeping underground heats the Hot Springs
    - The second references comes from an old book’s account that when King Jaehaerys I came to Winterfell, his dragon Veraxyes laid eggs in the crypts of Winterfell
    - Best theory I have read that probably won’t come true: There is an ancient dormant dragon that belonged to House Stark sleeping under Winterfell and his name is Winter. The Starks built their castle where Winter lost a battle and fell to the earth, naming their castle Winterfell, awaiting the day for their dragon Winter to return. This would give a new meaning to their House words, “Winter Is Coming.”

    The Importance of Bran
    Bran is a divisive character to both book readers and show watchers. Some think Bran’s story is of little consequence to the overall story arc and that he is essentially a waste of both pages and screen time. These beliefs have been reinforced by how little page time Bran got in Books 4 + 5 and how Bran will not be included in season 5 of Game of Thrones. While Bran’s story has been slow moving so far, I think his importance will be revealed in the books to come.
    - Bran the Builder: The World of Ice and Fire recounts the familiar stories of Bran the Builder. One of the most famous and notable heroes of the Age of Heroes and he is credited with building The Wall, Storm’s End, and Winterfell. Legend also has he lived over 1000 years old and TWoIaF lets us know that it is impossible for all this to be achieved by one man, let alone living a 1000+ years, so it is more likely Bran the Builder is, at least, 3 separate men whose stories have been combined into one. There are lots of hints and allusions to our Bran being the new “Builder.”
    - The Greenseers: Greenseers are by all accounts a legend, but Bran meeting The Three-Eyed Crow (aka Bryden Rivers), we know Greenseers are real and that they have great and phenomenal powers, and some even served Targaryen Kings. Now that Bran is working on his greenseer abilities, his possible power and influence over future events cannot be ignored

    The Eyrie is Impregnable? Not likely.
    The Eyrie itself is a symbol for the nest of a Bird of Prey. Littlefinger has always been compared to a bird of prey and the fact that he choose a Mockingbird as his sigil is not a coincidence. The signs pointing to Littlefinger taking over the Vale have been there right from the start - it is what comes next that is interesting. Littlefinger will not simply settle for the Vale though, as he clearly has his eyes set on the Iron Throne as his ultimate prize. As the Eyrie is a symbol for a nest, will the fall of the Eyrie be both the literal and symbolic fall of Peytr Baelish?
    - TWoIaF goes to great lengths to emphasize the fact the Eyrie has never been taken and that it is impregnable. A suspicious amount of time is spent emphasizing this, so either the fall of the Eyrie is going to be a great event in one of the next 2 books, OR this is a red herring.
    - Assuming it does fall, will it be by the hands of a dragon or Sansa?

    ->TWoIaF notes the one time the Eyrie almost fell, is when Queen Rhaenyra landed her dragon in The Eyrie’s courtyard, proving their castle could be breached. The Arryn’s immediately bent the knee and were named Lord Protectors of the Vale. Perhaps this time dragonfire will smash the Eyrie.
    -> Remember in ACoK, when Arya is taken by the brotherhood and she overhears the stories of the Woods Witch (one of the last Children of Forest, maybe?), she gives three prophecies. One was about a purple maid at a feast (the poisoning of Joffry) and that the same maiden will slay a giant. House Baelish’s original sigil was The Titan of Bravos, until Littlefinger changed it. This prophecy could be foreshadowing how Sansa will be the ultimate undoer of Littlefinger.

    The Wall Will Fall
    This would perhaps be one of the biggest shockers of the whole series, but one I think must come to pass. From a dramatic point of view, it would be a brilliant move on GRRM’s part and the symbology would be endless. The show hasn’t touched on any of them, but the books are FULL of foreshadowing and TWoIaF only adds more fuel to the proverbial flame.
    - The Horn of Joramun - Quick recap: Also known as The Horn in Winter, this is a legendary horn which, if blown, would bring down the entire wall. Mance claimed to have it, and when “it” is burned, The Nights Watch rejoices. We later find out that wasn’t the real Horn of Winter, and that the fabled horn is still out there. Meaning, the threat of bringing down the wall in a single breathe still exists and is lingering.
    - Sam’s horn: Along with the obsidian, Jon gives Sam a horn. This horn appears to have the same description as the Horn of Winter and it is mentioned in nearly all of Sam’s POV chapters at some point, including when he arrives in old town. BONUS: Sam’s horn also appears to match the description of the horn that graces to cover of the next book in the series, The Winds of Winter. Could Sam’s horn be the Horn of Joramun? All signs to point to yes - but he is in old town now. How will be effect events at the wall?
    - The Wall is kept up with magic: There are multiple mentions in TWoIaF to how the Wall was actually built using a form of ice magic, and it is ice magic that continues to hold it up until this day. Of course the Maester dismisses these claims, but he dismisses a lot of what we know to be true. That and we know Melisandre’s powers have grown at Wall (though she still continues to ignore the obvious signs).
    - The fall of the wall will actually be a good thing to the realm: While the Others provide an immediate threat to Westeros, it is suggested the building of the Wall may be a major contributor to the disorder that has thrown Westeros and Essos into chaos. The fall of the wall may help to bring balance to the world - that is, as long as The White Walkers can be subdued once they pass through the Wall and in to the North.
    Last edited by rage patton; 12-07-2014 at 10:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmack86 View Post
    And it's been long established that Chris hates fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatinisbad View Post
    I took my niece this year and it was her first Coachella. It was so fun to see it through her eyes. She thought it felt like a magical scene from Shreck. The one where all the fairy tale creatures meet for the first time in Shreck's swamp.

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