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ambient sounds
10-01-2011, 01:15 PM
There are thousands of people marching today and not a single word from televised news stations yet.

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution


https://occupywallst.org/

Mugwog
10-01-2011, 02:13 PM
It seems so, its been since the 17th and mainstream media has blips here and there. It's in Chicago and LA (starting today in downtown LA).

We had more coverage of all the Muslim countries falling apart, I felt like for London we just had snippets of a really fucked up picture.
Strange. Hmm.

nathanfairchild
10-01-2011, 02:24 PM
that's because these "occupy wall street" protesters aren't 100% sure what they're protesting. it's a non story. they seem to be really upset with the banks, but by protesting wall st. they seem to be taking an anti-capitalism stance.

Wheres the beef?
10-01-2011, 02:28 PM
that's because these "occupy wall street" protesters aren't 100% sure what they're protesting. it's a non story. they seem to be really upset with the banks, but by protesting wall st. they seem to be taking an anti-capitalism stance.

How very obtuse of you. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a "stupid hippies" at the end.

nathanfairchild
10-01-2011, 02:30 PM
i have no problem with them protesting, i'm just not sure what they're protesting, and i don't think they know either.

malcolmjamalawesome
10-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Yeah I heard dozens were arrested.

Mugwog
10-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Protesting the bankers and financial powers, wanting the government to acknowledge and publicly lynch those in charge of the financial powers.

A lot of people are pretty upset that our government "bailed out" the banks, who are now all starting to charge fees for using basic things such as debit cards or checking accounts, and yet still giving HUGE bonuses to executives and they act like the bail out never happened. "Everything's back to normal, Dad's not mad anymore. Lets act like shit heads again"

The middle class and lower income families are affected by bullshit fees (that keep rising), banks saying, "Oh sorry you're broke? We gotta take that shit right now". Most smaller banks/credit unions now no longer have free checking (let alone exist), or require you to put a large amount of money for a minimum ($1000+) to use it without fees. People moved to the big banks and the same thing happened again. You can't really do much in this country without a bank account, so you're forced to get fucked by these guys as your money dwindles away and your income shrinks.

The credit ERA is over for most of America, and those who profited the most off it are just laughing their way to new ivory back-scratcher. People are pissed off and want someone's neck.

nathanfairchild
10-01-2011, 03:06 PM
so they're mad at the banks and the government, not the stock exchange?

Wheres the beef?
10-01-2011, 05:35 PM
You best be trollin.

Wheres the beef?
10-01-2011, 06:06 PM
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/page/2

guedita
10-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Someone let me know when the dum-dums have stopped "explaining" this to everyone. If you want a real analysis, that is.

fetuspiniata
10-01-2011, 07:21 PM
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/page/2

I feel so bad for SOME of those people. I want to slap about 99% of them!

PassiveTheory
10-01-2011, 08:38 PM
I feel so bad for SOME of those people. I want to slap about 99% of them!

Why?

fetuspiniata
10-01-2011, 09:25 PM
Why don't I feel bad for all of them? Or why do I feel bad for any of them?

guedita
10-01-2011, 09:29 PM
that's because these "occupy wall street" protesters aren't 100% sure what they're protesting. it's a non story. they seem to be really upset with the banks, but by protesting wall st. they seem to be taking an anti-capitalism stance.

Thanks, Fox News INDIE EDITION

PassiveTheory
10-01-2011, 09:35 PM
Why don't I feel bad for all of them? Or why do I feel bad for any of them?

You said you wanted to slap about 99% of them, so I doubt you genuinely feel bad for any of them.

Wheres the beef?
10-01-2011, 10:19 PM
Someone let me know when the dum-dums have stopped "explaining" this to everyone. If you want a real analysis, that is.

I don't need an explanation but I'd love to hear the non dum-dum version.

concertgoer
10-01-2011, 10:28 PM
Thanks, Fox News INDIE EDITION

I fucking love this post

M Sparks
10-02-2011, 12:24 AM
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Here's a report on FOX that supports the protestors!
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The description on this one seems to imply that an old man unable to hear his IFB in a crowd is somehow a media blackout conspiracy, even though he talks for about 3 minutes.
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Here's a television report on how there are no television reports. :rolleyes
s4QUePfHFQY

You can say some of the reports are dismissive or focus only on the arrests, but to say it's not covered is simply wrong. And the dismissive reports do make some good points...the number of protesters are no where near what they originally wanted, and there's no clear message coming from them.

EDIT- I do agree it's undercovered, especially at first. If this thread had been made 2 weeks ago, I wouldn't be here calling the OP an idiot.

concertgoer
10-02-2011, 12:26 AM
In all seriousness I totally support these protests
I really hope that we are beginning to have a grass roots movement to counter the " Tea Party"

elChurro
10-02-2011, 05:39 AM
Some corporate bootlicking bloggers have reported that most protesters were there in promise of a free Radiohead concert, then saying that Radiohead was merely trying to make its way to play some sold out show. What happen to them? Aren't these the things they used to sing about?

nathanfairchild
10-02-2011, 06:48 AM
Some corporate bootlicking bloggers have reported that most protesters were there in promise of a free Radiohead concert, then saying that Radiohead was merely trying to make its way to play some sold out show. What happen to them? Aren't these the things they used to sing about?

they've been protesting this 3 weeks now. that radiohead show was a rumor that the band quickly cleared up. a free show had nothing to do with why they are there.

guedita
10-02-2011, 09:19 AM
There were 600 people arrested over several days during the 1999 Seattle WTO protests. The NYPD just arrested 700 in 5 hours


So far, the JP Morgan donation [to nYPD] is an isolated example. But the high odds of continuing deep budget cuts at the state and local level open up the opportunity for corporate funding of preferred services, and with it, much greater private sector influence on the apparatus of government. This is a worrisome enough possibility to warrant a high degree of vigilance by all of us.

...

nathanfairchild
10-02-2011, 09:33 AM
wasn't the main reason for the arrests because they were blocking the brooklyn bridge?

guedita
10-02-2011, 10:21 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/02/1022016/-New-York-Times-changes-its-story-on-blame-for-Brooklyn-Bridge-arrests

Vz67fULXc-0

M Sparks
10-02-2011, 10:25 AM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_radiohead.php

elChurro
10-02-2011, 10:47 AM
they've been protesting this 3 weeks now. that radiohead show was a rumor that the band quickly cleared up. a free show had nothing to do with why they are there.


All I'm saying is that with songs like Electioneering, Fitter Happier, No Surprises, Dollars and Cents, Sit Down Stand Up, and countless others, you would think they would at least give a nod to these people.

Sell outs? or chalk it up to artistic expression. Whateva'.

M Sparks
10-02-2011, 11:35 AM
If someone hadn't hoaxed them, no one would have ever thought of it. Or are you saying that anytime anyone protests in support of something an artist supports, that artist should drop everything and go play a free show for them? Never mind the logistics, permits, etc. I knew it was a hoax from the first post I saw...I just thought the protesters were the ones hoaxing.

Stickjohn
10-02-2011, 11:51 AM
These people need to quit protesting and get jobs so they can pay back their student loans - Goldman Sachs needs the money! Oh wait, they already got their money ...

http://www.ag.state.mn.us/Consumer/PressRelease/110922StudFinAid.asp


...filed a lawsuit against Education Management Corporation (“EMC”), the country’s second largest for-profit college company, alleging that two of its for-profit colleges in Minnesota--Argosy University and Art Institutes International--unlawfully collected state taxpayer-financed student financial aid. The Pennsylvania-based for-profit EMC is 80 percent owned by Goldman Sachs Capital Partners and other private equity funds.


Seventy-six percent of for-profit college students attend institutions owned by Wall Street investors, according to U.S. Senate data. Reports by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (“GAO”) in 2009 and 2010 found widespread problems at some for-profit colleges, including abusive and misleading sales tactics.


About 2,000 for-profit colleges enroll about 11 percent of all higher education students but receive about 25 percent of all federal financial aid, totaling about $32 billion per year, according to the GAO and Time Magazine. The GAO has questioned the cost of some programs. In a 2010 report, the GAO found that tuition at for-profit colleges was often significantly more expensive than at nearby public colleges. Indeed, the national average for tuition at a for-profit college is approximately six times higher than at a comparable community college, according to U.S. Senate data. On average, the largest 15 for-profit colleges received about 86 percent of their funding from federal student loans. If students default on federal loans, taxpayers—not the for-profit colleges—pick up the tab. In other words, taxpayers subsidize the private equity funds and investors who own the for-profit colleges when students who attend them default on their federal student loans. Although for-profit colleges enroll only about ten percent of the nation’s undergraduates, their students make up almost one-half, of all loan defaults, according to data released on September 12, 2011 by the U.S. Department of Education.

Multiple state attorneys general have filed similar suits, and there have been large settlements in the recent past with similar corporations like the Apollo Group - who joined forces with the Carlyle Group a few years ago to take their business model global.

Who says an education is not worth money?

Mugwog
10-02-2011, 12:14 PM
Put yourself in permanent debt to have a piece of paper.

WhyTheLongFace
10-02-2011, 04:18 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/bloomberg-to-protesters-help-the-banks-dont-protest-them-2011-10?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+businessinsider+%28Business+Ins ider%29

Monko760
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
This thread brings joy to my evil heart. "Fox New Indie Addition" Still fucking laughing!!!

kreutz2112
10-02-2011, 04:42 PM
Put yourself in permanent debt to have a piece of paper.

Spoken like a true GED recipient.

WhyTheLongFace
10-02-2011, 08:15 PM
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316356_286107748083800_100000537317873_1077420_202 4385679_n.jpg

malcolmjamalawesome
10-03-2011, 03:34 AM
I've come to expect nothing less from The New York Tin

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 09:10 AM
Most of these kids who can't find jobs out of college probably shouldn't have gone to college. There are jobs out there for most of them, just not the jobs they think they deserve.

No amount of self-righteous flaming is going to make that untrue.

J~$$$$
10-03-2011, 09:14 AM
The 99% want to be the 1% the easy way.

Also, Winter is coming and these protest will be a faded memory by Nov 15th.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 09:37 AM
They're forgotten already.

I fucking hate all these half-assed comparisons to the Egypt protests and the rest of the middle east. Those people risked death or their family starving. These people are screaming because they can't make their student loan payment and still afford an iphone data plan and extra quac on their chipotle burrito.

Mr. Dylanja
10-03-2011, 10:07 AM
lol

JebusLives
10-03-2011, 11:06 AM
Your apathy is a real breath of fresh, unique air, jackstraw. People should definitely not complain about stuff until things get 3rd world bad.

Starraven
10-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Most of these kids who can't find jobs out of college probably shouldn't have gone to college.

I'm sure this will help. Many kids now aren't going to college because their families cannot afford it.

If anything it will help those that want perfect spelling/grammar over the internet.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Your apathy is a real breath of fresh, unique air, jackstraw. People should definitely not complain about stuff until things get 3rd world bad.

I've done more to solve the situation than most of those kids ever do, if by doing nothing more than just voting.

Protests are only effective when they have a list of feasible demands. They need not be easily attainable, they just need to be fucking coherent. They have to be able to explain some sort of condition that might satisfy them, even if it's not immediately available. These people can't state what they want Wall St to do (aside from complete and total redistribution of all wealth..... within the US that is! good god we wouldn't want to share with brown countries).

They may as well be protesting to end hurricanes.

If these people really are worried about jobs then they're they're protesting the wrong people. These kids don't have a fucking clue what Wall St is or what it's for. What they really want is the government to play a bigger role in the banking industry. They need to be fucking with politicians, not stock brokers.

I'm not claiming to have ultimate solutions, I just am pretty fucking sure they're not using their energy the most productive way to suit their goals, If they had any goals.


This is not a protest. It's a live-action meme.

nathanfairchild
10-03-2011, 12:34 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/2vttjzp.png

J~$$$$
10-03-2011, 12:48 PM
I'm confused. There was no rally cry from these people when the twin towers were blown up. We cheered for osamas death, and now we are locking ourselves to buildings and bridges because of what?

Gribbz
10-03-2011, 12:51 PM
They just want some of that internet money.

J~$$$$
10-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Xtreme Muslim brunchwavers.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 12:57 PM
Yahhrr, bankerz! Youz fuct!

maybe. for some convoluted and incoherent reason.

j5xRaQnHGA0

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Also, Winter is coming and these protest will be a faded memory by Nov 15th.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-whats-going-to-happen-at-occupy-wall-street-next-week-from-those-in-the-know-2011-10


Some of the protestors told reporters that they wouldn't leave until it gets "really cold out."

Note that they said "really cold". These people mean business.

J~$$$$
10-03-2011, 01:15 PM
HUZZAH! BACK TO THE INTERNET!


......and the nearest Burger King with free wifi of course.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 02:32 PM
The top google hit for "occupy wall st demands" pretty much sums it up it's futility.
A preemptive strike against those who would ask for list "demands" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-tripp/what-are-your-demands_b_991130.html)


a few results down there's an interesting list (http://www.businessinsider.com/finally-specific-demands-from-occupy-wall-street-2011-9#smash-the-wall-street-bull-1) made by some industrious reporter on the ground. Here are finally some concrete things they're asking for based on actually surveying them. See if you can guess what they all have in common by the time you get to the end.

1) Smash the Wall St Bull
- sure, why not. Might give them some small measure of satisfaction without any real accomplishment.

2) Repeal the Citizens United States Supreme Court Ruling That Let Corporations Give More Money To Politics
- okay that sounds pretty good. Nobody likes it when the corporations get all corporationey. Definitely warrants some follow up.

3) Widespread Debt Forgiveness
- fuck off, tyler durden.

4) Pay-As-You-Go Military Intervention
- somewhat interesting. Never going to happen but it would be ideal. Minute accounting for the military based on actual activity would definitely curb military spending.

5) Pass a Tobin Tax (http://www.businessinsider.com/sarkozy-plans-unpopular-tobin-tax-2011-08)
- also interesting, in some sense mostly a spiteful move against Wall St, but hopefully the increased tax revenue would offset the slower investing.

6) Universal Health Care
- Great.

7) Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act)
- Obama and congress have been trying to get pieces of this done in the last couple years. Maybe some campaigning on their behalf might be useful.

8) Paid sick leave
- mmkay.

9) Increased Political Transparency
- go get 'em

10) Negative Income Tax
- I seriously doubt most of these occupy wall st kids really want that. Those that would benefit from it are too busy actually working at their low wage jobs. A cute notion but the beaurocracy and risk of abuse of such a system is huge.




Can you guess what they all have in common?
Wall St. can do NONE of that shit for you. Blocking a bunch of hard working stock brokers from getting to and from work easily doesn't get you one inch towards those goals.

Some of that shit deals with actual real legislation, some of which is actually close to happening. Why not focus on getting that shit done instead of blogging in your PJs from Wall St & Broad?

Morons.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 02:42 PM
This guy is actually pretty amusing.

LOL @ "Jesus stuff"

CJgWdfZqDj0

Starraven
10-03-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm confused. There was no rally cry from these people when the twin towers were blown up. We cheered for osamas death, and now we are locking ourselves to buildings and bridges because of what?

This post also makes me confused.

guedita
10-03-2011, 02:53 PM
From a logical standpoint, I agree with jack regarding the sort of obvious futility that the history of protests of this type (and of almost all types in recent history) have had on impacting actual policy change, but I also agree with what Betsy Reed has to say on the matter:


Of course, we need policy ideas. And the progressive groups that have staged previous rallies—like the ones that are sponsoring the “American Dream Movement” spearheaded by Van Jones, convening in Washington, DC at this moment—are the crucial building blocks of the coalitions necessary to make long-term campaigns around real policy proposals work.

But sometimes, you also need a spark. “Occupy Wall Street,” as an idea, and an action, is a stroke of brilliance. It’s not poll-tested or focus grouped, but it expresses perfectly the outrage that is the appropriate response to the maddening political situation we find ourselves in today. It succeeds as symbolic politics: taking back the square is just what we need to do. And it’s wonderful that unions and community groups that have been working in the trenches will be linking arms with the denizens of OWS this Wednesday.

Maybe this will go nowhere too. The odds are against it, after all. But what do we have to lose? We have to try something new.

Must be the commie in me.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 03:10 PM
From a logical standpoint, I agree with jack regarding the sort of obvious futility that the history of protests of this type (and of almost all types in recent history) have had on impacting actual policy change, but I also agree with what Betsy Reed has to say on the matter:



Must be the commie in me.

This should have happened in DC, but do you know why it didn't? Because these kids are THAT lazy. They don't have any hope for actual change. They shoudl be fucking shit up in front of people that could answer their demands (i.e. the politicians). These kids just want to be able to tell the story that they were THERE for it, whatever IT was, which I'm sure they'll tell you you could never really understand because you weren't THERE. It can't be "put into words", man!


I would call this wasted effort if I thought there was any chance they'd have applied it more thoughtfully if they had a chance.



This is a hipster protest.

Mr. Dylanja
10-03-2011, 03:20 PM
These kids just want to be able to tell the story that they were THERE for it, whatever IT was, which I'm sure they'll tell you you could never really understand because you weren't THERE. It can't be "put into words", man!

Sounds like Burning Man.

guedita
10-03-2011, 03:22 PM
The protest needs DJs.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 03:33 PM
Sounds like Burning Man.

If you follow me in that thread I clown on that idea.

But at least that takes more effort than I'd guess these kids could muster

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 03:33 PM
The protest needs DJs.

I'll bet heavy money at least a third of them are.

jgafs
10-03-2011, 04:12 PM
These people are patriots.

Have some appreciation for their interest in OUR collective future.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 04:19 PM
interest in our collective future. cute.


Nationalism is almost as dumb as religion.

Wheres the beef?
10-03-2011, 04:46 PM
Your apathy is a real breath of fresh, unique air, jackstraw. People should definitely not complain about stuff until things get 3rd world bad.

Really? Really?

bmack86
10-03-2011, 06:02 PM
But seriously, Congress really needs to create some sort of bill clarifying how the fuck we should treat corporations, because assuming that they're people with the full panoply of litigation rights that entails is just bizarre (at least to me.)

Yeah, these kids are not going to help get that done, most likely, but dammit if the SCOTUS didn't get that decision completely wrong.

MissingPerson
10-03-2011, 06:06 PM
The corporations-as-people thing just seems to me like one of the weirdest ideas ever to take root.

nathanfairchild
10-03-2011, 06:10 PM
if they weren't they couldn't sue or be sued. it's to give them the same legal rights as everyone else.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 06:23 PM
The problem is that they are NOT treated as people. You can fine a corporation but the whole point of it existing is the fact that you're only doing small (or sometimes large) harm to everyone involved in that corporation, instead of the small number of people responsible for the decisions that caused the harm. I get that a company on a grand scale can do more damage than you can reasonably expect one individual to cover, but you to do something to put more fear into the people responsible for guiding the ship. Bryan's right, you have to make more distinctions between what actions of a company are the personal responsibility of individuals rather than the entity.

That'll strip them of some of their corporationness, make them less corporationey anat.

but that still doesn't really answer to the "concerns" of these kids on their neato wall st. slumber party. They're just disillusioned over the fact that the american dream that their parents raised them under is a lot harder then they thought it was going to be. Findin' out the rent is too damn high.

PassiveTheory
10-03-2011, 06:38 PM
I think the reason that they've decided to protest Wall St. instead of Congress is under the mislead line of thought that since politicians are bought you need to take some kind of mass instigating action against something that symbolizes all corporations (or a location where some corporate entities tangibly mingle in some way or another) that they'd be killing two birds with one stone.

Planning a two-fold attack on both Wall St. and Congress would have been more symbolic (and possibly more effective, but I have my doubts) because of what jackstraw has said, among other things. This is almost akin to trying to cut the heads off of a hydra. You can't fucking try to wipe out something that is as nuanced like the current plight of the country by just tackling the problem in one spot at a time.

bmack86
10-03-2011, 06:40 PM
That's exactly the problem with treating a corporation as a "person" when the very term implies they are a grouping of individuals. A corporation could do nothing without the individual constituents, and the fact that the current state of law seems to blindly ignore this is confounding.

MissingPerson
10-03-2011, 06:44 PM
One thing worth throwing out there is that I can tell you pretty much for sure that if they protested outside Congress it would get zero useful international coverage. People are supposed to protest outside Congress because it's Congress. The sun will rise, the seas will churn, and somebody will be yelling about something outside of fucking Congress.

Protesting on Wall Street is something of a novelty, and this is receiving at least some coverage purely on that basis. It's a shame these folks haven't got a more pointed, unified message, but that doesn't mean they're not getting a blunter, hazier one across.

jackstraw94086
10-03-2011, 07:03 PM
I just think it's kind of sad that us americans have to be seen as only complaining about the money. And hopefully the international press isn't drawing any of the moronic analogies to middle east protests that some folks here are fantasizing about.

If these protests were designed with an intention to catch international attention then that would truly be pathetic.

MissingPerson
10-03-2011, 07:39 PM
They're more often compared to the Greek and Spanish austerity protests, but generally presented as their own thing.

It's worth remembering, in Ireland at least, to most folks' mind, the catalyst that heralded the onset of our economic woes was the Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac crisis. The protest in Wall Street is not seen as just a bit of economic hissyfitting by a few Williamsburgers with time to kill, because everyone everywhere is now very painfully aware of how much of an effect a decision made on Wall Street can have in their own neighbourhood.

I'm 26. I was born during a severe depression, grew up during the recovery, lived through the biggest boom the country's ever known, and saw it all collapse in on itself pretty much overnight. I know as well as anybody else of my vintage that money and wealth aren't just abstract concepts, they are very real factors in the quality of life and environment you can have for yourself or offer your family.

There's no comparison between, for instance, facing down tanks and water cannons in Cairo and taking a bit of verbal abuse from a cop in New York, but that doesn't make the latter automatically meaningless. Protests about money aren't necessarily trivial, because we don't live in a society where money is trivial.

nathanfairchild
10-03-2011, 07:44 PM
They're more often compared to the Greek and Spanish austerity protests, but generally presented as their own thing.

It's worth remembering, in Ireland at least, to most folks' mind, the catalyst that heralded the onset of our economic woes was the Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac crisis. The protest in Wall Street is not seen as just a bit of economic hissyfitting by a few Williamsburgers with time to kill, because everyone everywhere is now very painfully aware of how much of an effect a decision made on Wall Street can have in their own neighbourhood.

I'm 26. I was born during a severe depression, grew up during the recovery, lived through the biggest boom the country's ever known, and saw it all collapse in on itself pretty much overnight. I know as well as anybody else of my vintage that money and wealth aren't just abstract concepts, they are very real factors in the quality of life and environment you can have for yourself or offer your family.

There's no comparison between, for instance, facing down tanks and water cannons in Cairo and taking a bit of verbal abuse from a cop in New York, but that doesn't make the latter automatically meaningless. Protests about money aren't necessarily trivial, because we don't live in a society where money is trivial.

i think the part that's trivial is that these wall st. protesters are likening their protest to protests in libya and other middle eastern countries that are fighting for their freedom. people in libya have been slaughtered for protesting, meanwhile some hipsters get pepper sprayed and want the world to see their "struggle."

guedita
10-03-2011, 07:46 PM
Of course a few protestors are going to make those sorts of stupid comparisons. It doesn't mean that by and large the entire movement is. It means that certain media outlets are going to capitalize on these silly comparisons as a way to undercut many of the other things being (symbolically) protested.

MissingPerson
10-03-2011, 08:02 PM
i think the part that's trivial is that these wall st. protesters are likening their protest to protests in libya and other middle eastern countries that are fighting for their freedom. people in libya have been slaughtered for protesting, meanwhile some hipsters get pepper sprayed and want the world to see their "struggle."

It's easy to put this stuff in its place from a distance, but in close-up, it's really easy to lose perspective. Facing down a line of uniformed cops with state-appointed power over you - even good cops with good intentions and cool heads - is a really charged experience that can bring out the idiot in the very best of us. It's scary and exhilarating, and it gets really easy to believe that you're going to be the one to wave the flag from the battlements and punch the Queen off her horse before riding one of the hostages off into the sunset.

It's a silly comparison to make in the cold light of day, but an understandable one to make from the pavement, where scuffles look amplified, injuries look magnified, and rumours of all kinds of nefarious cop wrongdoing can travel like wildfire. Dumb comparisons are not going to endear the protesters to anybody, sure, but I don't think a loss of perspective as a result of natural tunnel vision is a valid reason to dismiss the movement - or whatever you might call it - entirely.

ramblinon
10-03-2011, 09:19 PM
The problem is that they are NOT treated as people. You can fine a corporation but the whole point of it existing is the fact that you're only doing small (or sometimes large) harm to everyone involved in that corporation, instead of the small number of people responsible for the decisions that caused the harm. I get that a company on a grand scale can do more damage than you can reasonably expect one individual to cover, but you to do something to put more fear into the people responsible for guiding the ship. Bryan's right, you have to make more distinctions between what actions of a company are the personal responsibility of individuals rather than the entity.

That'll strip them of some of their corporationness, make them less corporationey anat.

but that still doesn't really answer to the "concerns" of these kids on their neato wall st. slumber party. They're just disillusioned over the fact that the american dream that their parents raised them under is a lot harder then they thought it was going to be. Findin' out the rent is too damn high.

Totally agree with most everything you've said before, but this HAS been addressed....by Sarbanes-Oxley. It made corporate officers (CEOs, CFOs, et al) have to sign off on their financial statements, with material misstatements punishable with prison. And it's worked.

The problem is the protesters don't know a goddamned thing about what they're protesting. Greed will never end...it is as part of the evolutionary progression as the desire to fuck. What these hipsters and hippies don't get is that the problem that they could potentially (read: not likely, but more possible) fix is in Washington.

But you can't fix a problem if you don't know what the problem is, right? Outside of a myriad of issues, the '08 meltdown would not have happened if it weren't for two major occurrences: 1) the repeal of Glass-Steagall, which enabled "Too Big To Fail", and 2) the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which deregulated and allowed the TBTF banks to completely obfuscate all those crazy derivatives that nearly led to a global meltdown clusterfuck. Both bipartisan by Congressional votes, both signed by Clinton. Look them up.

But hey, let's get angry at rich people because Ed Schultz and random bloggers told us to. We can feel like we made a difference too! Woo!!

What a fucking joke. It's too bad that any semblance of resistance has to come from such a group of willfully ignorant lemmings.

/rant

biggfoot17
10-03-2011, 09:47 PM
Protesting Wall St is a symbolic gesture. While the people of this nation carry the risk of Wall St, those who work there are able to share in the profit without facing any of the risk/consequences when their actions fail. Yes, there are plenty of people there who have no idea what the intention of all this is, and the real change is not going to happen there, but the whole point is to bring accountability upon those who helped to bring this economy to where it is today.

And anybody who compares these protests to what's going on in the middle east is an idiot. Get real.

ambient sounds
10-03-2011, 11:44 PM
I agree with most of you that say that the occupy movement needs to have set goals and demands because this is what is hurting the movement. It's starting to spread to fast without clear intentions that are just going to undermine the movement. But this is what's hard about these protests because it deals with structures that are pretty fucking complex. Its easier to understand and justify civil rights protests or protests for some sort of democracy.The average joe might not know what they are protesting in the Occupy protest's but it doesn't take a genius to realize something isnt right. And its their right to protest for change so that eventually someone that knows what the fuck is going on can do something about it. The idea that people are protesting because life is harder then they thought would be is pretty stupid. Its not really about jobs. Its about the de-regulation of corporations in this country and their power over the politicians that are supposed to regulate them (So many tangents to go off here. Big money has changed and influenced the legislative process for so long and will probably never end) The complete disregard of some corporate CEO's has helped drive this nation in a complete shitty path. I would recommend anybody to watch Inside Job. The documentary probably still only scratches the surface but it still shows the clear picture of how a hand full of corporation have lead us to where we are now.
There has to be line drawn somewhere. Capitalism should never be deeply ingrained in democracy. I can go on a long rant of why i hate capitalism, i do support capitalism, but all i got to say on thr topic is that capitalism is going to go to shit when there is no longer anyone left to be taken advantage of.

And thanks M sparks for posting some good videos. This thread was kind of an emotional response to seeing what was happening on the livestream and then switching to CNN where the shows description was "broadcasting breaking news as it happens." They were showing the weather while 700 people were being arresting in mere hours.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 12:17 AM
Totally agree with most everything you've said before, but this HAS been addressed....by Sarbanes-Oxley. It made corporate officers (CEOs, CFOs, et al) have to sign off on their financial statements, with material misstatements punishable with prison. And it's worked.



I was assisting SOX audits on my company back in 03 and 04, and they were mostly a joke. Plus at that same job the company was charged with backdating stock options, the CEO bought his way out of the indictment and the CFO was convicted and just fined.

I wouldn't say that sox has entirely solved corporate accountability. It only makes them accountable for financial statements and business process documentation but it lots of immoral practices are still not covered.

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 05:14 AM
You know, a few years ago we had reporters going down to make fun of the clueless teabaggers and their silly ideas. Now they have congress by its balls.

I'm glad to see hipsters finally standing for something, ultimately effective or not. Apathy accomplishes nothing.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 08:46 AM
You know, a few years ago we had reporters going down to make fun of the clueless teabaggers and their silly ideas. Now they have congress by its balls.

I'm glad to see hipsters finally standing for something, ultimately effective or not. Apathy accomplishes nothing.

That you could draw that analogy is astounding.

Does it completely escape you how the tactics of the tea party and these kids differ? What the fuck have we been saying here?

ByTheWay,
10-04-2011, 09:18 AM
Well, seems like everthing is going to plan for TPTB ....protests,mass protest next??rioting?? and then martial law??

ByTheWay,
10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
BTW,
Are these people protesting the Wall St. Banksters the ones helping to fight the drug wars too, the cats out the bag dudes ? You Wall St. Bankers & C.I.A are the biggest drug runners on the planet. How are your poppy's doing in Afghanistan, you know the poppy fields that our troops are sacrificing their lives and limbs to protect, so you can smuggle your poison all over the world and destroy the family unit even more,till its non-existant!

guedita
10-04-2011, 10:10 AM
Remedial English.

ByTheWay,
10-04-2011, 10:45 AM
Remedial English.

Well then sharpen up your reading comprehension skillz MR. GUEDITA.

nathanfairchild
10-04-2011, 10:51 AM
you're insufferable

guedita
10-04-2011, 11:03 AM
poppy's

Stickjohn
10-04-2011, 11:15 AM
Bernanke speaking to Joint Congressional Economic Committee (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204524604576610712269716064.html)

Mr. Bernanke was also asked about recent protests in New York and other cities against Wall Street and corporate greed. He signaled some sympathy for the demonstrators, saying people are blaming "with some justification the problems in the financial sector for getting us into this mess."

"At some level, I can't blame them," he said, pointing to an unemployment rate that remains above 9.0%.

Americans are "dissatisfied with the policy response here in Washington," Mr. Bernanke told lawmakers.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 11:32 AM
ME NO WANT SYMPATHY

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4e875eb369bedd1f76000015/occupy-wall-street.jpg

Starraven
10-04-2011, 11:51 AM
That you could draw that analogy is astounding.
grass. roots.



Does it completely escape you how the tactics of the tea party and these kids differ? What the fuck have we been saying here?

Yeah those kids down there need to tie some sort of symbol to their hats and carry more signs with the image of hitler on them =/
http://www.eyeonlifemag.com/storage/a-hat-for-all-seasons/tea%20bag%20hat.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=127 5324409441

nathanfairchild
10-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Yeah those kids down there need to tie some sort of symbol to their hats and carry more signs with the image of hitler on them =/

they're not terribly different. you just don't agree with one so you feel the need to make one look more ridiculous.

Starraven
10-04-2011, 12:08 PM
This occupy wallstreet momement may grow into a "far left" platform for some batshit hipster candidate.. but that's pretty unlikely. I'm just agreeing that it has as much potential as those grannies on the side of the road once did.

Stickjohn
10-04-2011, 12:15 PM
http://reason.com/assets/mc/mwelch/2011_08/RonPaulBatman.jpg

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 12:16 PM
That you could draw that analogy is astounding.

Does it completely escape you how the tactics of the tea party and these kids differ? What the fuck have we been saying here?

You're almost militantly apathetic. It's an interesting paradox.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 12:35 PM
and you didn't even stop to think about my response to you.

you're recklessly simplistic.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 12:40 PM
grass. roots.




Yeah those kids down there need to tie some sort of symbol to their hats and carry more signs with the image of hitler on them =/
http://www.eyeonlifemag.com/storage/a-hat-for-all-seasons/tea%20bag%20hat.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=127 5324409441

Jesus how does that analogy make any sense to you at all? Was the extent of that effor to just pick up an internet pic and then call it quits? Did you put one ounce of thought into what makes these kids and the tea party DIFFERENT? even after I spelled it out for you?

Where do the tea party folks gather except for in planned rallies in their own back yard? Where does the tea party derive its power?

From campaigning in front of like minded folks who then elect leaders to represent them in congress.

You don't see the tea party doing something as pointless and foolish as camping out on wall st.

Starraven
10-04-2011, 12:41 PM
I think i spelled it out for you too :) grass roots

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 12:43 PM
I think i spelled it out for you too :) grass roots

what the fuck is "grass roots" about camping out on wall st? Do you know what that term means?


and btw you pulled out hitler for no reason. By laws of internet you've got nothing interesting to add.

guedita
10-04-2011, 12:43 PM
Fair points are being made here, Jack. Both tea-partiers and occupy wall streeters emit carbon dioxide; and while I don't have the actual figures in front of me, a fair majority of both groups have fingernails.

Starraven
10-04-2011, 12:52 PM
you guys need to unclench

meaning that a movement has to start somewhere... i'm sorry you're a little slow jack i'll try harder

ByTheWay,
10-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Fair points are being made here, Jack. Both tea-partiers and occupy wall streeters emit carbon dioxide; and while I don't have the actual figures in front of me, a fair majority of both groups have fingernails.

I see the good ole divide and conquer method is still alive and kicking!

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
Both groups consist largely of poorly informed individuals with no real concrete or uniform message. The Tea Partiers want to "take back america" (from black people, or something). These guys want to "stop the greedy banksters" or whatever.

But opportunistic politicians jumped on the tea party as a way to get elected, and that in itself made them a force for change. I'm hoping this can be something loosely similar, because right now nobody in government is catering to these guys.

rage patton
10-04-2011, 01:30 PM
I like what Cornel West had to say about the lack of cohesion or unified message of the Occupy Wall Street protesters.

"It’s impossible to translate the issue of the greed of Wall Street into one demand, or two demands... You’re talking about raising political consciousness so it spills over all parts of the country, so people can begin to see what’s going on through a set of different lens, and then you begin to highlight what the more detailed demands would be. Because in the end we’re really talking about what Martin King would call a revolution: A transfer of power from oligarchs to everyday people of all colors. And that is a step by step process."

Makes sense to me.

J~$$$$
10-04-2011, 01:31 PM
Both groups consist largely of poorly informed individuals with no real concrete or uniform message. The Tea Partiers want to "take back america" (from black people, or something). These guys want to "stop the greedy banksters" or whatever.

But opportunistic politicians jumped on the tea party as a way to get elected, and that in itself made them a force for change. I'm hoping this can be something loosely similar, because right now nobody in government is catering to these guys.

Nader or Kucinich will.

guedita
10-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Bernie Sanders.

J~$$$$
10-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Bernie Sanders.

This is dudes platform. He needs to get his old ass out there.

amyzzz
10-04-2011, 01:47 PM
Can we get an independent presidential candidate out of this?

guedita
10-04-2011, 01:50 PM
But opportunistic politicians jumped on the tea party as a way to get elected, and that in itself made them a force for change. I'm hoping this can be something loosely similar, because right now nobody in government is catering to these guys.

It's hard to see the impetus to cater to these guys, in terms of new, fresh opportunistic politicians. There was money to be made as a tea-party candidate.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Both groups consist largely of poorly informed individuals with no real concrete or uniform message. The Tea Partiers want to "take back america" (from black people, or something). These guys want to "stop the greedy banksters" or whatever.

But opportunistic politicians jumped on the tea party as a way to get elected, and that in itself made them a force for change. I'm hoping this can be something loosely similar, because right now nobody in government is catering to these guys.

Your hatred of the tea party it seems has clouded your better judgement. I'm not sure you know much about them. They're not really about taking america back from "black people". They're more or less just about maintaining status quo. Also, they have a very clear and articulate agenda, mainly aimed at stopping social programs, it's just that it's often exaggerated and hypocritical.

The reason politicians have been able to exploit them is because they were good at organizing themselves into a voting block.

These wall st kids are just rabble compared to the tea party movement.

Please stop with these absurd comparisons.

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:31 PM
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:32 PM
Cause it's like. The Tea Party people were organized and funded and bussed around the country for free. Remember?

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:34 PM
Cause it's like. They're just normal Republicans? Remember?

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 02:39 PM
They're not really about taking america back from "black people". They're more or less just about maintaining status quo.

Are you seriously arguing that the tea party has a single coherent message vs the wall street folks?

fevga9jUC48

Politicians with slick spinsters have since created a message from the noise, but it started out as angry white people shouting at stuff.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:42 PM
I like what Cornel West had to say about the lack of cohesion or unified message of the Occupy Wall Street protesters.

"It’s impossible to translate the issue of the greed of Wall Street into one demand, or two demands... You’re talking about raising political consciousness so it spills over all parts of the country, so people can begin to see what’s going on through a set of different lens, and then you begin to highlight what the more detailed demands would be. Because in the end we’re really talking about what Martin King would call a revolution: A transfer of power from oligarchs to everyday people of all colors. And that is a step by step process."

Makes sense to me.

Makes no sense to me. Wall St. greed isn't news to anyone.

If Cornel West were a boxing trainer, he might coach his fighter to throw blind haymakers at the champ until the crowd accepts that he might be able to beat him. And only then he should throw some aimed punches. Oh yeah and also mention MLK.


Cornel's deck only has one card in it.

rage patton
10-04-2011, 02:47 PM
Jack, it sounds like you are forgetting about the beginning of the tea party. They were just as disorganized and without a clear agenda as Occupy Wall Street when they began.

Also, dont forget about the birthers. I think you are giving the tea party far too much credit.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:48 PM
Are you seriously arguing that the tea party has a single coherent message vs the wall street folks?

fevga9jUC48

Politicians with slick spinsters have since created a message from the noise, but it started out as angry white people shouting at stuff.

fantastic. Pick an edited video full of cherry picked soundbytes.
You realize you're the caricature they complain about on their end, right?

Instead of fishing for dumb quotes from the crowd, why don't you listen to their elected reps like Rand Paul and see if he can articulate what they want.

Now lets see who the occupy wall st. kids have representing them. oh wait...


Seriously cut this out.

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:50 PM
The tea party was not a grass roots movement, and it didn't coalesce into anything other than traditional Republican values. You're all fucking stupid.

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:51 PM
"Their elected representatives" are Republicans. That's it.

Starraven
10-04-2011, 02:52 PM
I think we need a time machine in here. No one seems to remember what actually went down.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Jack, it sounds like you are forgetting about the beginning of the tea party. They were just as disorganized and without a clear agenda as Occupy Wall Street when they began.

Also, dont forget about the birthers. I think you are giving the tea party far too much credit.

First of all, I'm not the one who brought tea party bullshit into this, they have no place in this.

Show me the beginnings of the tea party that were anything like these kids randomly flash mobbing wall st.

seriously.

The birthers are a simple amusement. They are if anything an argument AGAINST a comparison between them and the wall st kids because they were able to take an absurd (IMO) triviality and make use their influence to get it to the furthest reaches of goverment and make even the white house take notice.

These kids actually have something substantial (in theory) to complain about and they can't seem to put it into a sentence.






Or how about people just STFU with these idiotic comparisons.

PotVsKtl
10-04-2011, 02:55 PM
the furthest reaches of goverment

Donald Trump.

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Jack, i'm fully aware that that is cherry-picked sound bites from a small group of clueless protestors. That's sort of my entire point. There were no Tea Party Republican congresspeople at the time, so don't invoke Rand Paul on me.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:57 PM
"Their elected representatives" are Republicans. That's it.

This is exactly what I'm saying. They are leveraging their politicians to push whatever agenda they have.

This is not what the slumber party seems to be up to, which appears to be an attempt to shortcut that whole process and just bend government directly to their abstract will.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:57 PM
Donald Trump.

They got the white house to respond to it is what I mean.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Jack, i'm fully aware that that is cherry-picked sound bites from a small group of clueless protestors. That's sort of my entire point. There were no Tea Party Republican congresspeople at the time, so don't invoke Rand Paul on me.

YES THERE WERE. Read Pot's posts. They were there the whole time. The tea party worked the system. These kids feel they don't have to.

J~$$$$
10-04-2011, 03:18 PM
College freshman discover George Carlin.

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Boehner doesn't even control his own house anymore. Cantor, Bachmann, Palin... these wackos are not establishment Republicans. Their patron saint Ron Paul can't even get airtime on Fox. I don't buy that this was astroturfing. I say it was grass roots, highjacked by some Republican opportunists.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Boehner doesn't even control his own house anymore. Cantor, Bachmann, Palin... these wackos are not establishment Republicans. Their patron saint Ron Paul can't even get airtime on Fox. I don't buy that this was astroturfing. I say it was grass roots, highjacked by some Republican opportunists.

as has been stated before, these folks are all just slightly different hues in the republican crayola box.

You just have a bone to pick. You've personified all your anger as "the tea party". You've put their face on everything that frustrates you just like the slumber party has blamed all their problems on "bankers".




Actually, ya know who the slumber party kids contact to deal with this banker problem?

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nhl_experts__40/ept_sports_nhl_experts-168463273-1252701493.jpg?ym1kE4BDSwmrsOzO

JebusLives
10-04-2011, 05:01 PM
I brought up the tea party as an example of an effective movement that evoked change, as a model for how this could also succeed. This has nothing to do with my contempt for the tea party.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 05:45 PM
What has the tea party accomplished?


BTW the slumber party's started on market and speare

Starraven
10-04-2011, 06:12 PM
What has the tea party accomplished?

http://www2.insidenova.com/mgmedia/image/294/0/140371/govt-shutdown/

Gribbz
10-04-2011, 06:43 PM
Apparently Jeff Mangum is performing at this thing right now.

MissingPerson
10-04-2011, 06:44 PM
Well there's an achievement for ya.

MissingPerson
10-04-2011, 06:45 PM
Dude, Bowie. Tell them to bring back Bowie. We can all get behind that.

jackstraw94086
10-04-2011, 08:16 PM
http://www2.insidenova.com/mgmedia/image/294/0/140371/govt-shutdown/

was shutting down government part of the tea party platform? Regardless, it fizzled.


and btw I know this argument is counter to the line of reasoning about the slumber party, but this tea party phobia is hilarious.

nathanfairchild
10-04-2011, 09:42 PM
they got mangum. they won.

faxman75
10-05-2011, 06:40 AM
Here's a short storoy with a youtube of his performance.

http://consequenceofsound.net/2011/10/watch-jeff-mangum-play-occupy-wall-street/

faxman75
10-05-2011, 07:40 AM
Here is a pretty solid list of demands. I hadn't seen it posted yet in this thread.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/detailed-list-of-demands-overview-of-tactics-for-d/



----- LIST OF PROPOSED DEMANDS -----

1.CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 REINSTATING GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal . If we wanted to have a BIG IMPACT and we were able to have only one slogan that we could paint on signs and chant during marches within earshot of press, it would be "PASS HR 1489. REINSTATE GLASS-STEAGALL" or "RE-IN-STATE the ACT GLASS-STEAGALL. IT MAKES THE WALL STREET GAMES ILLEGAL"

2.USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list.

3.CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. The Supreme Court decision is really weird. Read it when you have a chance. The justices who argued for unlimited corporate contributions thought that wouldn't have an adverse effect on democracy and wouldn't undermine the citizen's view of legitimacy of elections. I'm not sure there's a word for that it's so strange.

4.CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's.

5.CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm.

6.CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

7.CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control.

8.ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS (Sorry Mitt Romney)

9.RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 09:16 AM
Those demands seem eminently reasonable to me.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 09:16 AM
and a partridge in a pear tree

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 09:29 AM
Fantastic that they've been able to compile a list of suggestions, but I'll say the same thing I said when I posted this list a few pages ago.

This list only makes them look even more stupid for camping out on Wall St. It's like they're protesting on the playground to stop bullying. Go picket the fucking parents.

And before anyone says "oh the system is broken, corporations own the government!"
A) STFU moron
B) congress has been close to passing some of this stuff already. The reason it failed is because the representatives from OTHER areas of the country either didn't want it, or they didn't lobby their representatives hard enough to pass it if they did want it.

This is a big fucking country full of many different places and people. If your own reps are already voting your way then go find where the opposition to your agenda is and campaign for it there. That's how governing a country works. Everyone can't get exactly what they want and you have to convince the others where they live that what you want is in their best interests too.

Sleeping on Wall St. isn't going to get you any fucking votes anywhere where you didn't have them already, morons.

TomAz
10-05-2011, 09:30 AM
Those demands seem eminently reasonable to me.

Some of them are very reasonable and some of them are whacky as shit.

1- reasonable

2- ok but it sounds like they've already convicted the accused without a trial

3- someone needs to take a class in civics. By which I mean this "legislation" would pretty much have to be a constitutional amendment, and those are very hard to get passed.

4- totally agree

5- spirit is right, but whoever wrote that has to be naive as all hell. Where do they think "proven professionals" come from?

6- would seem to violate freedom of speech protections

7- see #5. Also, $195,000 is not a lot of money to the people we're talking about here.

8- I don't know why this matters so I don't support it or disagree with it yet

9- I have no idea what this means in practice but it seems reasonable

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 09:48 AM
Some of them are very reasonable and some of them are whacky as shit.

1- reasonable

2- ok but it sounds like they've already convicted the accused without a trial

3- someone needs to take a class in civics. By which I mean this "legislation" would pretty much have to be a constitutional amendment, and those are very hard to get passed.

4- totally agree

5- spirit is right, but whoever wrote that has to be naive as all hell. Where do they think "proven professionals" come from?

6- would seem to violate freedom of speech protections

7- see #5. Also, $195,000 is not a lot of money to the people we're talking about here.

8- I don't know why this matters so I don't support it or disagree with it yet

9- I have no idea what this means in practice but it seems reasonable

they assume those that currently "control" the SEC (as if there were a small group of peopel that do) are evil and those that they would replace them would be good. They don't have the first clue what the SEC is. SEC rules are intentionally written fuzzy in order to capture more wrongdoing, and prevent as many loopholes as possible. In practice it could never truly be fuzzy enough to prevent all of it. Sure it could probably be improved, but these kids assume it was created for the purposes of screwing the public, and that they could write a much better one from scratch right now.

The fact that the softball = $195k bit made it into their published list of demands really reeks of amatuerism. They need to get some proof readers here, some "proven professionals" perhaps.

PlayaDelWes
10-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Most of those seem somewhat legitimate, assuming there is a plan to address any unfavorable consequences and the people driving these demands are at least transparent or honest with the full effect. My questions are few.

GLASS-STEAGALL ACTThe Wiki article does a good job weighing both sides of the argument and why it’s repeal may have helped escape the financial crisis. Whether you agree or disagree with the act, my question is why the urgency now? The only securitizations that commercial banks have been doing for the last 4 years are GSE through FNMA and FHLMC. Repealing Glass-Steagall would eliminate their ability to do that passing the burden onto ~ 80% of borrowers who would no longer be able to refinance or get a mortgage on a new home. Assuming that’s the intention (or unintended consequence?), why not just shut down the GSEs? They are a cash drain on US taxpayers as is. And for private label securitizations, don’t Dodd-Frank, Basel III, and Reg AB-2 address these same concerns?

PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALSSo why not protest in front of the department of justice?
it wouldn't take long to develop the list By the time I’m done writing this, perhaps the list has already been generated??? so let’s name names and crimes and get going.

3.CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION This should be the “one slogan that we could paint on signs and chant during marches within earshot of press”

THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARECan you point me in the direction of those who are currently paying their fair share?

5.CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION…and 6.…PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS… Seems either ambitious or there needs to be some more meat attached here. Having dealt with the both sides of the SEC, I can assure you they are pretty bad ass when it comes to enforcing violation of securities law. I’ve seen them put people I’ve known and absolutely hated in jail and destroyed their careers for their unethical actions.

6.…PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS… Doesn’t this seem rather pie in the sky while watering down their message?

7.… LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED.It takes the same skill-set to regulate or audit an industry than it does to run one. The only way to get quality regulators is to pay well and absorb industry expertise into the agency. If there is no exit option, I can’t see any regulating agency ever able to attract the talent it would take to effectively create and enforce relevant regulations. As long as there are ways to address this, it may eliminate the occasional conflict of interest, but IMO having a weak agency that is unable to regulate is the worst of both worlds. In their larger plan, do they outline how to maintain this balance?

8.… ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" status… Flavor of the week?

9. RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES … Also pie in the sky, but a noble cause. Who covers the cost?

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 10:28 AM
I give this one more week before Alex Jones and his loonies ruin the party.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 10:42 AM
It really doesn't matter where the protests take place... yeah they're asking for government intervention, but they need to protest wherever the noise will be heard best. Why would protesting in Washington be more effective?

I was just glad to see nothing about "ending the fed" in that list of demands.

Personhood of corporations is actually a fairly concrete concern. When I was an independent contractor I had to incorporate purely for liability reasons; essentially if I fucked up a job, a customer couldn't sue me directly. They'd have to sue Jebus inc. No matter how badly I screwed up, I was protected behind my corporate identity.

If shareholders were held personally liable for the actions of their investments, the world would be a far more accountable place.

(Yes I understand this would be an extremely radical reorganization of western society.)

PlayaDelWes
10-05-2011, 11:12 AM
Personhood of corporations is actually a fairly concrete concern. When I was an independent contractor I had to incorporate purely for liability reasons; essentially if I fucked up a job, a customer couldn't sue me directly. They'd have to sue Jebus inc. No matter how badly I screwed up, I was protected behind my corporate identity.People offering one-sided explanations without complete transparency that could potentially undermine their argument is getting tiring. Nevertheless, let me remind you that when you incorporate, you sign up for double taxation; first as corporate income tax (at a rate greater than personal income tax rates), and then again as profits are distributed to shareholders. That's just ONE of the tradeoffs that is made. I don’t see anyone complaining about Billions of extra tax revenue.


If shareholders were held personally liable for the actions of their investments, the world would be a far more accountable place.Oh really. So everyone in America who has any equity, from a kid who got a share of Disney Stock for his 1st birthday, to retirees living off their 401Ks, to public retirement funds would be liable beyond their initial investment.

TomAz
10-05-2011, 11:27 AM
If shareholders were held personally liable for the actions of their investments, the world would be a far more accountable place.

(Yes I understand this would be an extremely radical reorganization of western society.)

It would make rich lawyers even richer, that's for sure.

TomAz
10-05-2011, 11:28 AM
amatuerism

yep, this is it right here.

but, you know, the capital structure of the entire american economy isn't that big a deal, it's ok.

obzen
10-05-2011, 11:33 AM
3.CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. The Supreme Court decision is really weird. Read it when you have a chance. The justices who argued for unlimited corporate contributions thought that wouldn't have an adverse effect on democracy and wouldn't undermine the citizen's view of legitimacy of elections. I'm not sure there's a word for that it's so strange.

Boom-shakalakalakalaka-shazam...






bitch.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 11:37 AM
but you don't understand, Tom, it's not FAIR!


This whole thing is just a tantrum.

They didn't pass the legislation that I wanted. FUCK THIS! LET'S RAGE (in our PJs on a sidewalk with wifi).

obzen
10-05-2011, 11:45 AM
Tom, Jack, and Playa; elitists.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 11:45 AM
Nevertheless, let me remind you that when you incorporate, you sign up for double taxation; first as corporate income tax (at a rate greater than personal income tax rates), and then again as profits are distributed to shareholders.

I paid significantly less tax as a contractor than now as an employee. As a corporation, I payed myself in dividends (taxed at 16%) and... well to be honest I don't remember how it all worked (accountant did the footwork) but it was less, by half.

I still don't know why you're being so hard on these guys. Yeah it's amateurism - its a fucking public uprising. I'm surprised that list didn't include a ban on all meat products or something.

PlayaDelWes
10-05-2011, 11:51 AM
I paid significantly less tax as a contractor than now as an employee. As a corporation, I payed myself in dividends (taxed at 16%) and... well to be honest I don't remember how it all worked (accountant did it) but it was less, by like 50%.OK, you paid dividends taxes, but were you not paying corporate income taxes Jebus? Shame Shame. You could be the poster child for occupywallst demand #4.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 11:57 AM
All those kids on the street would jump at the chance to do the same thing Jebus very smartly did.

ambient sounds
10-05-2011, 12:02 PM
all the rightist crucify the poor for working the system as well.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 12:08 PM
OK, you paid dividends taxes, but were you not paying corporate income taxes Jebus? Shame Shame. You could be the poster child for occupywallst demand #4.

We all live within the system as it exists.

TomAz
10-05-2011, 12:08 PM
This whole thing is just a tantrum.

They didn't pass the legislation that I wanted. FUCK THIS! LET'S RAGE (in our PJs on a sidewalk with wifi).

Ever since the self-glorification of the 60s war protestors, righteous indignation has been a staple food of the young and unshowered.

TomAz
10-05-2011, 12:25 PM
We all live within the system as it exists.

in your case, isn't it the Canadian tax system?

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 12:30 PM
Yeah. I was going to edit that in to my playa response but he'd already responded. I believe our systems are set up pretty similarly, although i don't quite understand how your payroll tax and income tax differ (we don't have both).

Wheres the beef?
10-05-2011, 12:42 PM
2PiXDTK_CBY

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 01:20 PM
that's been posted and what is hilarious about it is the assumption that those people are only out there and drinking champagne as a taunt. The guy who took and edited the video has never worked anywhere near Wall St before, that shit is happening every day. Those folks are just visitors or some shit, having some some drinks. And there happens to be a huge racket outside that they're curious to go see. It's an amusement. I used to work a block from Wall & Broad and there are fancy folks and visitors coming to visit the exchanges every fucking day.

This would be like you going to a party and leaning out the window with a glass of wine in your hand to see a bum singing. Are you taunting the bum with your glass of wine?

It's hilarious when folks posts that video as some sort of damning proof of Wall St greed and apathy or something. It's just folks having a fucking drink and taking a look at the commotion. I'm assuming Kingsblend did so ironically.

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 01:26 PM
Cyclical. These kids will become those people some day. The lion King did a song about it.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 01:32 PM
The kids should take a queue from the Lion King and climb up and eat those folks.

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 01:33 PM
NAAAAAAAAAAAAAZIBENIA BABANIJIBABA UENIAAA!!!!

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 01:34 PM
hakuna matata

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 01:57 PM
Fortunately Ezra Klein isn't as cynical as you jerks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-four-habits-of-highly-successful-social-movements/2011/08/25/gIQAeifVNL_blog.html

jackstraw, don't read this unless you want a hernia. The terms "tea party" and "grass roots" come up at least a few times.

edit: Rich Yeselson wrote this, its just reposted by Ezra.

Starraven
10-05-2011, 02:27 PM
the terms "tea party" and "grass roots" come up at least a few times.


http://www.conejovalleyguide.com/storage/RuhRoh.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=129799388541 9

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Im glad Ezra Klein and Rich Yeselson are on the case.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 02:35 PM
Congressional Democrats embrace Occupy Wall Street
Describing the protests as “serious” and “encouraging,” Rep. Peter Welch (D-Vt.) praised the sentiment motivating Occupy Wall Street and called for Congress to take heed. “It’s got a clear message, and that is frustration with the way that business is being done, the way that wealth is tilting towards the high end and the middle class is shrinking. And that message needs to be given,” Welch, a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, told me on Wednesday. What’s more he added, “it’s a real grassroots, citizens-led initiative. It’s not a top-down effort, it’s bottom up. In that sense, I think it’s very similar to the tea party.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/congressional-democrats-embrace-occupy-wall-street/2011/10/05/gIQAEvNIOL_blog.html#excerpt

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 02:46 PM
Is George Soros is backing this with the Tides foundation?

wmgaretjax
10-05-2011, 02:46 PM
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/416018779.jpg

At the CBOT in Chicago.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 02:53 PM
Fortunately Ezra Klein isn't as cynical as you jerks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-four-habits-of-highly-successful-social-movements/2011/08/25/gIQAeifVNL_blog.html

jackstraw, don't read this unless you want a hernia. The terms "tea party" and "grass roots" come up at least a few times.

edit: Rich Yeselson wrote this, its just reposted by Ezra.

oh my god dude you really need to slow down before posting something you think is devestating. Did you just do a search for "tea party" and then post after you realized he mentioned them? Ezra's actually making my argument.


Like with exercise, people have to make the time to do this somewhat tedious thing they nevertheless claim they really want to do. They did when building the CIO in the ’30s, and the Civil Rights movement in the ’60s. And people are making time to go to Tea Party meetings today. The many strands of the Syrian resistance just met in Turkey to coordinate their actions and demands. Ultimately, social media can augment, but cannot replace the tireless work of organizing and attending real life meetings.

Like with exercise, people have to make the time to do this somewhat tedious thing they nevertheless claim they really want to do. They did when building the CIO in the ’30s, and the Civil Rights movement in the ’60s. And people are making time to go to Tea Party meetings today. The many strands of the Syrian resistance just met in Turkey to coordinate their actions and demands. Ultimately, social media can augment, but cannot replace the tireless work of organizing and attending real life meetings.


Right there is an admonishment to do more than just fucking sleep on the sidewalk. He's drawing a contrast between the tea party and the slumber party. He's praising them for attempting to start a movement, but the article is pretty clear that this isn't a movement yet purely based on a few punks throwing a tantrum. They have to start doing something productive.


However, Ezra says some dipshit things later. He praises the "we are the 99 percent" bullshit and claims it has a potential to encapsulate a movement. I assure you 99% of the country are not these kids brothers-in-arms. I get where the 99% figure is derived, but trying to claim that this will somehow make the majority of these 99% of the [US] population feel solidarity with this misguided fools is absurd.

Assuming that a popular columnist's words are somehow more wise than anyone else's is one of the biggest idiot mistakes folks can make. Glenn Beck was incredibly popular. Does that make everything he says right even though some folks on a message board disagree with him? Oh wait, could the the difference be that YOU don't agree with Glenn Beck. Nah Ezra obviously has a firmer grasp on absolute truth and his columns are obviously devestating to any "lesser" voice regardless of what they say.

Trust me nothing on this board comes anywhere close to causing hernias

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 02:54 PM
http://boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/416018779.jpg

At the CBOT in Chicago.

Awesome. There clearly are some people of worth in the evil banker world.

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 02:59 PM
oh my god dude you really need to slow down before posting something you think is devestating. Did you just do a search for "tea party" and then post after you realized he mentioned them? Ezra's actually making my argument.


This isn't about you. I thought it was an insightful article, and the words "grass roots" and a tea party analogy made me chuckle. But it's really not about you. You're cynical. I get it. Not that interesting.

Those smug assholes better check that shit with the champagne and cheeky signs. It comes across as very French revolution and is just fuel for the fire.

J~$$$$
10-05-2011, 03:02 PM
Jean Valjean!

The only way you beat the 1% is by being the 1%.....but good luck.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 03:03 PM
This isn't about you. I thought it was an insightful article, and the words "grass roots" and a tea party analogy made me think of you and chuckle. But it's really not about you. You're cynical. I get it. Not that interesting.

Except for the fact that you mention me and suggest that this would upset me because it says things I don't agree with. It actually doesn't really. The mentions of grass roots and tea party were used mainly to draw contrasts to the actions of the slumber party thus far. Your previous comments would seem to equate them. It's almsot an argument against yours.




Those smug assholes better check that shit with the champagne and cheeky signs. It comes across as very French revolution.
can't really argue, but the kids are kind of asking for it. Also don't forget that the french revolution had a lot more support than these kids have.

MissingPerson
10-05-2011, 03:30 PM
I have the strangest feeling that if this thread was about how awesome bankers are, jackstraw would be arguing into the dirt ground that they're shit, and somebody should be protesting about them somewhere.

jackstraw94086
10-05-2011, 03:37 PM
I have the strangest feeling that if this thread was about how awesome bankers are, jackstraw would be arguing into the dirt ground that they're shit, and somebody should be protesting about them somewhere.

Think about that for a moment. seriously read that again
That's an idiotic feeling. An ironically desperate display of argumentativeness in an attempt to frame someone else as argumentative. I've never claimed they're wrong. I've just claimed they're either lazy or misusing their effort and resources.


and btw these online news posts are getting more and more idiotic. It's a mad dash to get their articles shared on facebook.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opinion/rushkoff-occupy-wall-street/index.html


The members of Occupy Wall Street may be as unwieldy, paradoxical, and inconsistent as those of us living in the real world. But that is precisely why their new approach to protest is more applicable, sustainable and actionable than what passes for politics today.

nathanfairchild
10-05-2011, 04:53 PM
1% represent woot woot

concertgoer
10-05-2011, 04:58 PM
This would be a good thread if jackstraw wasn't always being a debbie downer
Just sayin

Wheres the beef?
10-05-2011, 06:47 PM
This would be a good thread if jackstraw wasn't always being a debbie downer
Just sayin

But....but...but....tea party!

Tea Party!

JebusLives
10-05-2011, 06:54 PM
I've just claimed they're either lazy or misusing their effort and resources.

And what do you call this, exactly?

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 08:39 AM
I call it exactly I just said. Do those words look unfamiliar to you?

There's an attempt at cleverness here. Get on with it.

faxman75
10-06-2011, 09:26 AM
http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/special-comment-keith-reads-first-collective-statement-of-occupy-wall-street

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 10:14 AM
That is the most batshit crazy bullshit so far.

Here are some of the things that statement indicts "corporations" for

take houses illegally despite not having the original mortgage. (really?)
agism and racism in the workplace
poisoned the food supply through neglegence
profit off torturing animals
hold students "hostage" with tens of thousands of dollars (which is unjust because education is a "human right")?
used the military to enslave people
decline to recall faulty products
intentionally hide inactive ingredients
perpetuate "colonialism" at home and abroad
torture innocent civilians overseas



They're seriously trying to tie this up into one evil theme: "Corporations".
I thought this was about the bankers. This is an indictment of pretty much every industry there is. Are you fucking kidding me?

This statement makes them seem more childish than ever. People (yes "people", this evil shit didn't flash into being with the legal definition of "corporation") have been doing this shit since time immemorial. The difference is now there's an internet to brag in front of. These people should pick one cause and attack it until their satisfied and then pick another. The fucking gaul this idiots have to just assume that they can bring down the whole of society and start from scratch.

Because they can't find a high paying job.
Don't they know they're going to have to explain the gaps in their resume?

These aren't the 99%. If you backed up to a global scale they'd be right back in that 1%.

concertgoer
10-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I suppose bitching on the Internet would be a much better use of their time

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Many journalists, it seems, pay lip service to the First Amendment, but turn their backs or grow disdainful when people actually exercise these rights in the streets. In such a climate, idealistic activists such as those at the tar sands pipeline and Wall Street protests, obviously, can be safely ignored by the major news media or condescended to as not being rooted in the practical, real world. Real grown-ups don’t need to protest.

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00580

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 10:25 AM
I suppose bitching on the Internet would be a much better use of their time

I'm not claiming to have their lofty impossible goals.

What are you doing to aid the cause? seriously.



I'll tell you one thing. If these morons aren't careful they'll wind up putting a republican in the white house.

Or more likely the tantrum will be forgotten as these kids get on with the process of living life and eventually hopefully learn how to pick fights that can be won.


This is perfect timing with the new season of South Park though. Hopefully they'll be on next week's episode. Definitely the one after if not.

PotVsKtl
10-06-2011, 10:32 AM
take houses illegally despite not having the original mortgage. (really?)

Yes. This is true. You might want to learn more about the topic before beating it like a dick in a windsock.

Wheres the beef?
10-06-2011, 10:35 AM
Yes. This is true. You might want to learn more about the topic before beating it like a dick in a windsock.

Indeed. Matt Taibbi wrote a really great article about it a couple months back. The whole process is crooked to the core.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 10:39 AM
Yes. This is true. You might want to learn more about the topic before beating it like a dick in a windsock.

You have no idea what I know about foreclosure. Would you like to quote why you believe it is strictly illegal. Or would you like to remove your dick now?


there's a difference between "crooked" and illegal.

Don't we all wish shit that wasn't fair was illegal.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 10:42 AM
It comes across as very French revolution and is just fuel for the fire.

The difference being, the French revolution actually changed things.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 10:44 AM
The difference being, the french revolution is over.

faxman75
10-06-2011, 10:45 AM
They're seriously trying to tie this up into one evil theme: "Corporations".
I thought this was about the bankers. This is an indictment of pretty much every industry there is. Are you fucking kidding me?

This statement makes them seem more childish than ever. People (yes "people", this evil shit didn't flash into being with the legal definition of "corporation") have been doing this shit since time immemorial. The difference is now there's an internet to brag in front of. These people should pick one cause and attack it until their satisfied and then pick another. The fucking gaul this idiots have to just assume that they can bring down the whole of society and start from scratch.

Because they can't find a high paying job.
Don't they know they're going to have to explain the gaps in their resume?

These aren't the 99%. If you backed up to a global scale they'd be right back in that 1%.

After listening to and reading the demands. This movement should simplify itself and be called the Fight Club revolution.

I thought this old piece from 1999 Seattle WTO protests was interesting because of the similarities.

http://www.mail-archive.com/nativenews@mlists.net/msg05293.html

TomAz
10-06-2011, 10:48 AM
The difference being, the french revolution is over.

http://www.baggelboy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/021-crack-pipe.jpg

faxman75
10-06-2011, 10:48 AM
You have no idea what I know about foreclosure. Would you like to quote why you believe it is strictly illegal. Or would you like to remove your dick now?


there's a difference between "crooked" and illegal.

Don't we all wish shit that wasn't fair was illegal.

Yes, illegal. Not just unfair.


"In general, the examinations found critical deficiencies and shortcomings in foreclosure governance processes, foreclosure document preparation processes, and oversight and monitoring of third party law firms and vendors. These deficiencies have resulted in violations of state and local foreclosure laws, regulations, or rules and have had an adverse affect on the functioning of the mortgage markets and the U.S. economy as a whole."


http://www.creditslips.org/creditslips/2011/02/occ-finds-illegal-foreclosures-critical-deficiencies.html

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 10:55 AM
crackpipe

Ha! Obviously, the French revolution analogy only goes as far as the ruling class making the situation worse for themselves by taunting the commoners.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 10:55 AM
On a large enough scale you can find oversights and mistakes in any situation.
There were laws that were violated, but there were laws. You're not going to get people to stop breaking laws by protesting.

The childish rant woudl have you believe that this problem is systemic and ubiquitous, but what we're talkign about is violation of laws that were supposed to be there to prevent such things.

Some of these laws could probably be shored up, larger penalties for violating them, sure. Campaign for that. write your congressman about that.

Or stand on the street and scream about that and pet torture and WMDs. See which one gets more traction.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 10:57 AM
Or play devil's advocate / contrarian brat on a music forum. See how well that works!

We're having "inspired-by" protests here as well starting this weekend. I'm going to attend - the protests are right in front the building i'm working in right now. :rotfl

lunatic core
10-06-2011, 11:06 AM
The holding students hostage thing would work better if they were (and they possibly are) specifically talking about these schools that are basically scams like the Art Institute that use the government and the laws protecting schools to trap unsuspected kids into paying for useless classes and degrees.

nationocean
10-06-2011, 11:13 AM
jackstraw must be a hoot at parties... if he's invited to any.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 11:13 AM
The holding students hostage thing would work better if they were (and they possibly are) specifically talking about these schools that are basically scams like the Art Institute that use the government and the laws protecting schools to trap unsuspected kids into paying for useless classes and degrees.

Its only a scam to those that are incompetent or unwilling to start at the bottom. Just because you have degree does not mean you are worth more than minimum wage.

My wife graduated from AI and is pulling in 65+ a year.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 11:16 AM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/files/2010/04/jimtablecrop.jpg

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:17 AM
Or play devil's advocate / contrarian brat on a music forum. See how well that works!

We're having "inspired-by" protests here as well starting this weekend. I'm going to attend - the protests are right in front the building i'm working in right now. :rotfl

again, genius, your taunt only works if I were the one claiming to have these insane and infeasible goals myslef. I don't. I have a few things I care strongly about and I put effort into those, and luckily they afford me some time at work to amuse myself with your head.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:18 AM
jackstraw must be a hoot at parties... if he's invited to any.

if you only knew. I'll hoot you all night long, sister.

nathanfairchild
10-06-2011, 11:19 AM
Its only a scam to those that are incompetent or unwilling to start at the bottom. Just because you have degree does not mean you are worth more than minimum wage.

this is more indicative of the current generation. they don't want to have to work for anything. they think that if they finish college they're entitled to a $100K+ job.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 11:22 AM
again, genius, your taunt only works if I were the one claiming to have these insane and infeasible goals myslef. I don't.

Once again, I yield against your impenetrable wall of apathy. Or is it a vortex? Vortex of apathy.


this is more indicative of the current generation. they don't want to have to work for anything.

That's just not true at all. A generation ago, a Bachelor's degree was a ticket to middle-class comfort. Now it's the minimum employable standard and graduates are sorta cheesed. How old are you? This sounds very "get off my lawn".

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:22 AM
Its only a scam to those that are incompetent or unwilling to start at the bottom. Just because you have degree does not mean you are worth more than minimum wage.

My wife graduated from AI and is pulling in 65+ a year.

your wife's gonna take us both out for steaks and milkshakes.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:24 AM
I yield against your impenetrable wall of apathy.

so not throwing a tantrum and demanding a complete and instant end to greed and consumerism = apathy.

got it.

lunatic core
10-06-2011, 11:26 AM
Its only a scam to those that are incompetent or unwilling to start at the bottom. Just because you have degree does not mean you are worth more than minimum wage.

My wife graduated from AI and is pulling in 65+ a year.

Your mostly unrealated acedotal evidence has nothing to do with the level of bullshit these schools are putting students through tethering them with massive debt that follows them for years. They only get to do this thanks to how student loans and bankruptcy is handled here giving them all the protection from the students. The prices soar and students have problems getting loans down the line and don't always get to finish. The credits don't transfer to other schools. The students aren't protected from anything.

These schools have only incentive to sign up as many people as they can and then let the system get them the money. Doesn't matter if the students have success or even if they can graduate. They are all slaves now.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 11:27 AM
I yield against your impenetrable wall of apathy.



That's just not true at all. A generation ago, a Bachelor's degree was a ticket to middle-class comfort. Now it's the minimum employable standard. How old are you? This sounds very "get off my lawn".

Unfortunately there is no more buying your way into middle class. Hard work, know someone in your industry, innovate or GTFO.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 11:30 AM
Your mostly unrealated acedotal evidence has nothing to do with the level of bullshit these schools are putting students through tethering them with massive debt that follows them for years. They only get to do this thanks to how student loans and bankruptcy is handled here giving them all the protection from the students. The prices soar and students have problems getting loans down the line and don't always get to finish. The credits don't transfer to other schools. The students aren't protected from anything.

These schools have only incentive to sign up as many people as they can and then let the system get them the money. Doesn't matter if the students have success or even if they can graduate. They are all slaves now.

BOO fucking HOO. Then dont go to college. Nobody forced these kids. Pushing off ones poor decisions is a fucking cop out.

Im so tired of the entitlement attitude in this country.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Unfortunately there is no more buying your way into middle class. Hard work, know someone in your industry, innovate or GTFO.

How things are and how things should be are very different things. I take exception to "buying your way into middle class" though. College is a lot of work, and many are incapable or unwilling to complete it irregardless of money.

PlayaDelWes
10-06-2011, 11:33 AM
I can see how those who are OK not paying a mortgage and being able to live in the home their bank owns for 24 months rent-free would also want to be able to bail on their student loans. I'm starting to see the common platform.

nathanfairchild
10-06-2011, 11:33 AM
That's just not true at all. A generation ago, a Bachelor's degree was a ticket to middle-class comfort. Now it's the minimum employable standard and graduates are sorta cheesed. How old are you? This sounds very "get off my lawn".

i'm 22, and you're delusional if you don't think the current generation feels incredibly entitled.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:33 AM
That's just not true at all. A generation ago, a Bachelor's degree was a ticket to middle-class comfort. Now it's the minimum employable standard and graduates are sorta cheesed. How old are you? This sounds very "get off my lawn".

The piece of paper was not the ticket to middle-class. It was the supposed skills and knowledge you were supposed to have. If there's no demand for the bullshit skills you learned in college, it really doesn't matter that you went. Never did.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 11:35 AM
The piece of paper was not the ticket to middle-class. It was the supposed skills and knowledge you were supposed to have. If there's no demand for the bullshit skills you learned in college, it really doesn't matter that you went. Never did.

Really? I thought it was the actual piece of paper. The more you know.


i'm 22, and you're delusional if you don't think the current generation feels incredibly entitled.

I think the current generation feels entitled to the things their parents took for granted, yes. And why shouldn't they?

lunatic core
10-06-2011, 11:37 AM
Unfortunately there is no more buying your way into middle class. Hard work, know someone in your industry, innovate or GTFO.

School was supposed to be the "hard work" part of your equation. It is also part of the know someone thing as well since a good school is also a good place for networking.

These schools practically promise the "know someone" part when they talk about how great job placement is and how 95% of the people who graduate work in the field. To bad thats all bullshit.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:41 AM
School was supposed to be the "hard work" part of your equation. It is also part of the know someone thing as well since a good school is also a good place for networking.

These schools practically promise the "know someone" part when they talk about how great job placement is and how 95% of the people who graduate work in the field. To bad thats all bullshit.

school was supposed to be the "hard work"?

Oh boy life's going to be extremely disappointing.

lunatic core
10-06-2011, 11:41 AM
BOO fucking HOO. Then dont go to college. Nobody forced these kids. Pushing off ones poor decisions is a fucking cop out.

Im so tired of the entitlement attitude in this country.

So the schools are entitled to misadvertise the programs and benifits and stack on pointless classes to enflate shitty massive loans that have to be paid back no matter what, but the kids are entitled?

These schools get all the protection the students are just massive entitled brats? Either way this bullshit set up is a drain on all of us. Same as the morgage problems. Save the banks fuck the people.

I like that. SAVE THE RICH, FUCK THE POOR!

lunatic core
10-06-2011, 11:42 AM
school was supposed to be the "hard work"?

Oh boy life's going to be extremely disappointing.

I am not a kid asshole, don't talk down to me fuckstick.

PlayaDelWes
10-06-2011, 11:43 AM
School was supposed to be the "hard work" part of your equation.
Are you fucking kidding me? Get a degree and float the rest of your life?

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 11:43 AM
I am not a kid asshole, don't talk down to me fuckstick.

You said school was supposed to be the hard work. I don't care how old you are. Life is still ready to disappoint you.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 11:53 AM
Obviously he doesn't mean the work stops at graduation. How disingenuous can you two be?

PlayaDelWes
10-06-2011, 11:53 AM
In summary, the 99% doesn’t want to take risks anymore. They want free credit, but don’t want to be responsible for it. If things don’t work out, they don’t want to be accountable. For those who hold them accountable, they protest against. Instead of taking the bull by the horns and driving their own destiny, or even better, innovating and creating jobs for others, they want to float comfortably.

Those who want to take risks and drive their own destiny are the enemy. Those who are responsbile shall pay for everyone. They shall be taken down and this county should thrive no longer.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 11:56 AM
So your theory as to why income disparity and poverty are on the rise is that 99% of living Americans are bums? Fascinating.

I have a good job, a nice condo and a solid education, and I'm watching my retirement savings disappear due to gross mismanagement and greed by the 1%. That's my perspective. And its not because the 1% are greedier or stupider than in previous generations. Its because people like you let them get away with it.

obzen
10-06-2011, 11:56 AM
In summary, the 99% doesn’t want to take risks anymore. They want free credit, but don’t want to be responsible for it. If things don’t work out, they don’t want to be accountable. For those who hold them accountable, they protest against. Instead of taking the bull by the horns and driving their own destiny, or even better, innovating and creating jobs for others, they want to float comfortably.

This is kinda presumptuous.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 11:56 AM
Your mostly unrealated acedotal evidence has nothing to do with the level of bullshit these schools are putting students through tethering them with massive debt that follows them for years. They only get to do this thanks to how student loans and bankruptcy is handled here giving them all the protection from the students. The prices soar and students have problems getting loans down the line and don't always get to finish. The credits don't transfer to other schools. The students aren't protected from anything.

These schools have only incentive to sign up as many people as they can and then let the system get them the money. Doesn't matter if the students have success or even if they can graduate. They are all slaves now.

This is so incredibly stupid that I don't even know where to start.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 11:57 AM
So the schools are entitled to misadvertise the programs and benifits and stack on pointless classes to enflate shitty massive loans that have to be paid back no matter what, but the kids are entitled?

These schools get all the protection the students are just massive entitled brats? Either way this bullshit set up is a drain on all of us. Same as the morgage problems. Save the banks fuck the people.

I like that. SAVE THE RICH, FUCK THE POOR!

Learn to read a contract.

Have you been living under a rock your entire life? ADVERTISEMENT LIES.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 11:59 AM
So the schools are entitled to misadvertise the programs and benifits and stack on pointless classes to enflate shitty massive loans that have to be paid back no matter what, but the kids are entitled?

You should have picked a better school.

PotVsKtl
10-06-2011, 12:00 PM
There aren't enough jobs. Period. They're gone. They're not coming back. Whether school was or was not hard work is irrelevant, we free-traded our way into the shitter. Every person on this thread is arguing about the lace fringe on a great big blanket of fuck you.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 12:01 PM
I have a good job, a nice condo and a solid education, and I'm watching my retirement savings disappear due to gross mismanagement and greed by the 1%. That's my perspective. And its not because the 1% are greedier or stupider than previous generations. Its because people like you let them get away with it.

That's just it. You need to take control of YOUR MONEY. If you gave me your retirement money and hoped that I wouldn't spend your money on hookers and blow and that im looking out for you, you are insane.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 12:02 PM
In summary, the 99% doesn’t want to take risks anymore. They want free credit, but don’t want to be responsible for it. If things don’t work out, they don’t want to be accountable. For those who hold them accountable, they protest against. Instead of taking the bull by the horns and driving their own destiny, or even better, innovating and creating jobs for others, they want to float comfortably.

Those who want to take risks and drive their own destiny are the enemy. Those who are responsbile shall pay for everyone. They shall be taken down and this county should thrive no longer.

Not the actual 99%. Just the people claiming to be it on TV.

PotVsKtl
10-06-2011, 12:02 PM
That's just it. You need to take control of YOUR MONEY.

This is retarded. What's he going to do, breed the bills together? Our entire economy relies on other individuals operating the financial industry.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 12:04 PM
hahaha thanks Pot. What I was thinking.

TomAz
10-06-2011, 12:05 PM
That's just it. You need to take control of YOUR MONEY. If you gave me your retirement money and hoped that I wouldn't spend your money on hookers and blow and that im looking out for you, you are insane.

Are you still all-in on gold?

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 12:06 PM
This is retarded. What's he going to do, breed the bills together? Our entire economy relies on other individuals operating the financial industry.

Dude puts his money in a 401k or IRA and hopes it works out for the best? See you when im 65 money! I like money.


You can have a firm grasp of your portfolio its not that difficult.

rage patton
10-06-2011, 12:06 PM
In summary, the 99% doesn’t want to take risks anymore. They want free credit, but don’t want to be responsible for it. If things don’t work out, they don’t want to be accountable. For those who hold them accountable, they protest against. Instead of taking the bull by the horns and driving their own destiny, or even better, innovating and creating jobs for others, they want to float comfortably.

Those who want to take risks and drive their own destiny are the enemy. Those who are responsbile shall pay for everyone. They shall be taken down and this county should thrive no longer.

What about all those bailouts? They weren't responsible with their money. The accepted no responsibility and expected to have the solution handed to them on a silver platter... and it was. They should have been held accountable, but they weren't.

ambient sounds
10-06-2011, 12:07 PM
what i think lunatic core is trying to say is that basically a degree was suppose to at least get your foot in the door like it did back in the day. A degree is supposed to say im at least qualified to do the job you want me to do. Now everyone is getting bachelors degrees and now they almost mean nothing. Everything goes back to how things were, and you parents legacy begins to matter alot more. Where it matters who you know and not what you know. Say a person like me who comes from a working class immigrant family. My parents dont have any previous connections or resources that can be handed over to me. They dont know anyone that can get me a job. But people from the middle class and upper class have parents and resources available them help them get a job a whole lot easier then it is for me. This workforce is now a information based workforce. How is anyone supposed to determine and choose who is better qualified for a job when two potential employees are just out of college. You say get a damn internship, I say I'm to busy having a fucking job to just get by while I'm in college. Im not saying people can't just do a good job and make their own person and end up having a great job because many people can and they do. But in reality the vast majority of people in this country are just mediocre and nothing more; and they will run into this problem.

PERSPECTIVE people. Learn there is such a thing.

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 12:08 PM
There aren't enough jobs. Period. They're gone. They're not coming back. Whether school was or was not hard work is irrelevant, we free-traded our way into the shitter. Every person on this thread is arguing about the lace fringe on a great big blanket of fuck you.

Over the past 12 years or so yeah, the jobs have been slowly disappearing overseas. The ~4% jump in unemployment since 2008 though is very much due to a temporary demand slump (that's rapidly turning permanent due to top-down incompetence).


Dude puts his money in a 401k or IRA and hopes it works out for the best? See you when im 65 money! I like money.
You can have a firm grasp of your portfolio its not that difficult.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm mostly tied up in stock options for the next 2 years. Options that are worth substantially less than they were 6 months ago. I assume from your smugness that you're in gold. It won't last forever.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 12:10 PM
Obviously he doesn't mean the work stops at graduation. How disingenuous can you two be?

that isn't obvious at all. Who the hell can make a statement like "school was supposed to be the hard work" and mean anything other than that it was supposed to be easy to get a job after doing that hard work. In fact he says that explicitly.

I'm genuine as fuck.

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 12:17 PM
This is retarded. What's he going to do, breed the bills together? Our entire economy relies on other individuals operating the financial industry.

It's times like these that some folks with a mind to control their own money start moving it when they feel the economy or the institutions they invested in start failing. Eventually banks start competing again.

Investing is supposed to be a gamble.
Who the fuck every guaranteed everyone that your retirement fund must always increase at a predictable rate?

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 12:18 PM
It should be easy to get a job for a young graduate in a robust economy. Why not?

Playa paraphrased as "Get a degree and float the rest of your life," which is not the same thing at all and not what anyone's advocating. Hard work through life should pay off.

There are so many straw people in here i'm getting confused.

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 12:18 PM
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm mostly tied up in stock options for the next 2 years. Options that are worth substantially less than they were 6 months ago. I assume from your smugness that you're in gold. It won't last forever.

You are whining that the stock options that your company gave you are not doing so well?

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Who the fuck every guaranteed everyone that your retirement fund must always increase at a predictable rate?

Now you're defending a 20% market drop (when we still haven't recovered from the last one) as tough shit for lazy entitled investors? Jesus, listen to yourself. Is there anything horrible you don't agree with?

J~$$$$
10-06-2011, 12:23 PM
lazy investors

BINGO.

PlayaDelWes
10-06-2011, 12:24 PM
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm mostly tied up in stock options for the next 2 years. Options that are worth substantially less than they were 6 months ago. I assume from your smugness that you're in gold. It won't last forever.
So wait, you are calling stock options (in your own company I presume?) your retirement?

chairmenmeow47
10-06-2011, 12:27 PM
it makes way more sense for me to invest in my company 401k, which matches my contribution to a certain percentage, because i have no problem trusting someone whose job it is to watch the markets day in and day out with my money. i don't have time or the understanding to pay that much attention. i've lost some money in the recent turmoil, but i know i'm in it for the long haul and am not too worried about it. i'm still on track because i started setting aside a lot at a young age and play a moderately conservative hand.

also, i really don't get why people expect to get well paying jobs fresh outta college with zero experience. there is so much to learn that can't just be learned in 4 years and then you are done. we as a society should shift from the "traditional" model of sending MOST people away to school (granted, certain jobs require that intense training, but not your average business person) and instead making continuing education an ongoing part of our jobs. that shorthand my mom learned over forty years ago isn't exactly relevant today.

the last thing i wanted to say about all this middle-class talk is that we have a much higher standard of living to maintain. the middle-class of yesteryear didn't have tv's in every room, stainless steel dishwashers, 3 cars, smart phones, data plans, preventative medicine, organic local food, etc. we are an entitled generation because we expect all of these things. i have a middle-class wage, no children, no car payment, no student loan payments and i still struggle. i'm not fighting for either side with this statement, i just think we have a lot more expensive expectations than prior generations did.

PlayaDelWes
10-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Now you're defending a 20% market drop (when we still haven't recovered from the last one) as tough shit for lazy entitled investors? Jesus, listen to yourself. Is there anything horrible you don't agree with?
So when the market was at its peak, you weren't selling some of your riskiest equities you owned or keeping some cash on the sidelines just in case there was a correction? The last four years have provided plenty of buying opportunites.

Oh, and you are blaming this on others?

JebusLives
10-06-2011, 12:28 PM
My mutual funds have done better than the market but are still down. I failed to see the peak when we reaching it around March. If you did, congrats!

Look, you three are trying to identify individual failings for everything. Are you even open to the possibility that maybe our culture in general is having some technical issues right now? That its not all individual failings of character? That maybe some good, hardworking people lost their jobs or money along the way? That maybe we can do something to correct it, as a group?

jackstraw94086
10-06-2011, 12:32 PM
It should be easy to get a job for a young graduate in a robust economy. Why not?

Playa paraphrased as "Get a degree and float the rest of your life," which is not the same thing at all and not what anyone's advocating. Hard work through life should pay off.

There are so many straw people in here i'm getting confused.

A degree might have automatically gotten your foot in the door years ago.
Guess what, it doesn't now. Get over it. We're no longer a society comprised of relatively few educated people. We're all smarter, the jobs are requiring more skills. Such is life. Sucks for you.

If you were born a T-Rex 65 million years ago, and watched the toxic clouds approach following the meteor strike, I'll bet you'd be complaining about how simply surviving adolescence used to your ticket to an easy life.

There is no "pay off" for hard work in life. Life requires effort at every damn stage. Your parents or others you know might have been able to retire and travel the world but they got fucking lucky. You might choose to believe that there are 5 jew bankers who are putting you under their thumb in order to keep you and the 99% down, but what you guys can't fucking accept that is that life is better for everyone, including the bankers, when the economy does well.