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Yablonowitz
03-03-2007, 05:34 PM
OK, I've read about 1,000 nothingman posts now where he goes into detail about his medication regimen for panic attacks and other anxiety related issues, and I really think there's a chance that a larger % than average on this board may have similar issues. I do. I figure, hey, this stuff is becoming increasingly common and no one talks about it too much. Apart from Zach, that is.

So, let this be an OPEN forum for discussions of this stuff. I personally am at peace enough with myself and stuff that I don't care if you make jokes, provide way TMI about your issues or ridicule those who do. This should be a crazy open and let it out thing.

Anyway, I'm going to start by saying I get panic attacks on a very, very irregular basis. They often lead me to become mentally weakened where I spend a great deal of time worrying about further, longer lasting attacks. Sometimes the fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and I'm down deep and hard. I get incredibly drowsy, nothing I typically enjoy is worthwhile and I worry I'm going to the nuthouse for good and screw up my kids. This lasts usually no more than two days and I'm suddenly 100% OK with no symptoms at all. Lately, I've been reacting to the panic attacks more naturally and just let the shit ride and don't obsess over them. It's taken a change in perspective to do that.

On to the meds - I currently take 1 mg of xanax to help prevent panic attacks. .25 in the morning, .25 at 4-5 p.m. and .5 mg before I go to bed. Zach, what do you make of that dosage. I've noticed bad effects when attempting to jump off too quickly. I'd rather not take it at all but it does seem to work and I don't have the need to go up ever.

Anyway...let's discuss and let our inner child out.

UnicornsForBreakfast
03-03-2007, 05:41 PM
What do inner children have to do with medication, and mental problems? Wasn't childhood supposed to be about being healthy, and content?

I so don't feel comfortable discussing my mental instability with people I don't know.

Stefinitely Maybe
03-03-2007, 05:48 PM
I'm going to start by saying I get panic attacks on a very, very irregular basis. They often lead me to become mentally weakened where I spend a great deal of time worrying about further, longer lasting attacks. Sometimes the fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and I'm down deep and hard. I get incredibly drowsy, nothing I typically enjoy is worthwhile and I worry I'm going to the nuthouse for good and screw up my kids. This lasts usually no more than two days and I'm suddenly 100% OK with no symptoms at all. Lately, I've been reacting to the panic attacks more naturally and just let the shit ride and don't obsess over them. It's taken a change in perspective to do that.

This is all exactly the same as me (except I don't have kids).

I take 20mg of Citalopram every day. It helps me cope with the anxiety / panic attacks and is supposedly an anti-depressant too. I haven't really felt depressed in a long time, so it seems to be working. To be honest I think the depression was CAUSED by the anxiety a lot of the time, so it was a vicious cycle.

Anyway I started taking Citalopram in winter 2001 and have been on it since. I was very sick at that time, mentally, and was going through a very bad stage in my life. I won't bore anyone with the stories, but it wasn't fun.

Things have been a lot better for the past 18 months or so and I hope to be able to come off the medication completely soon, although the thought of that terrifies me, too.


Also I just wanted to say that anyone who has similar issues or who is even posting in this thread should please please read this (http://taylor-parkes.livejournal.com/21855.html). It's a livejournal post by a guy I know. He's a journalist and used to write for Melody Maker (a weekly music magazine like the NME) and I think that's a great article.

Mr.Nipples
03-03-2007, 06:42 PM
used to take metadate,effexor,ritalin,paxil,god a whole bunch of shit,but then i found...
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/RetardoTronFiveThousand/scientology.jpg

Stefinitely Maybe
03-03-2007, 06:50 PM
I took a tour round the Scientology Center in LA last year, after Coachella. I went with three friends, for the hell of it. We walked in (three guys and one girl) and they made us stand in the lobby and then this hot blonde girl around our age came to show us around. I am sure if we had been three girls and one guy then a hot guy would have been our guide, to lure us in.

Anyway, the tour was predictably ludicrous, and at the end they asked if we wanted to buy any books or ask any questions. We declined the books but I decided to ask a question. I said to her "How long have you been in scientology and why did you join?". She replied "Four years, and I joined because people used to take advantage of me, and I was really gullible before I joined the church, but they helped me change all that."

I swear to god that is what she said.

We had no further questions.

boarderwoozel3
03-03-2007, 06:54 PM
I smoke a few bowls a day. Self medication is fun.

Yablonowitz
03-03-2007, 09:01 PM
I take 20mg of Citalopram every day. It helps me cope with the anxiety / panic attacks and is supposedly an anti-depressant too. I haven't really felt depressed in a long time, so it seems to be working. To be honest I think the depression was CAUSED by the anxiety a lot of the time, so it was a vicious cycle.

Anyway I started taking Citalopram in winter 2001 and have been on it since. I was very sick at that time, mentally, and was going through a very bad stage in my life. I won't bore anyone with the stories, but it wasn't fun.

Things have been a lot better for the past 18 months or so and I hope to be able to come off the medication completely soon, although the thought of that terrifies me, too.


Also I just wanted to say that anyone who has similar issues or who is even posting in this thread should please please read this (http://taylor-parkes.livejournal.com/21855.html). It's a livejournal post by a guy I know. He's a journalist and used to write for Melody Maker (a weekly music magazine like the NME) and I think that's a great article.

Cool, I'll read.

I haven't heard of that medication. I'm completely ill at ease with pharmaceuticals but I've also learned that they can help. It's a strangely complicated relationship for me.

I'm not a depressed person or someone with deep psychological problems that stem from childhood traumas or growing up in a fucked up environment. Everything I experience is driven by anxiety and, in my opinion, an extremely sensitive nervous system. Throw in a compulsion to obsess over worst-case scenarios and that's when shit happens. The amazing thing is how many other people are dealing with this and the cultural stigma associated with talking about it.

And regarding the comment that was made about discussing mental health issues with strangers - that's the kind of opinion that keeps people from getting help. It's considered "private" and something to be ashamed of. Not to sound like a self-help nutjob, but if people got diabetes at the rate that people get anxiety/depression, we'd have threads all over the place about it.

It's funny you mention pot. I had two panic attacks from smoking pot - through a bong both times. I think if I stuck with joints, I'd be fine. But now I can't touch marijuana...just the association is too difficult for me. I miss it. Love the smell of good pot. Mmmmmmmgoodpot.

samiksha
03-03-2007, 09:34 PM
i get really anxious after my first hit because i know there's no turning back, and i'll be stuck in that state of mind for some time. this happens to me too when i go see movies at the theater, just knowing that i have appx 2 hours that i have to be sitting in one place makes me very, very unbearably anxious. even worse if the movie is bad, of course.

thefunkylama
03-03-2007, 09:47 PM
I had two panic attacks from smoking pot

My aunt had the same thing happen to her when she smoked. She doesn't anymore, naturally.

nothingman00
03-03-2007, 09:50 PM
OK, I've read about 1,000 nothingman posts now where he goes into detail about his medication regimen for panic attacks and other anxiety related issues, and I really think there's a chance that a larger % than average on this board may have similar issues. I do. I figure, hey, this stuff is becoming increasingly common and no one talks about it too much. Apart from Zach, that is.

So, let this be an OPEN forum for discussions of this stuff. I personally am at peace enough with myself and stuff that I don't care if you make jokes, provide way TMI about your issues or ridicule those who do. This should be a crazy open and let it out thing.

Anyway, I'm going to start by saying I get panic attacks on a very, very irregular basis. They often lead me to become mentally weakened where I spend a great deal of time worrying about further, longer lasting attacks. Sometimes the fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and I'm down deep and hard. I get incredibly drowsy, nothing I typically enjoy is worthwhile and I worry I'm going to the nuthouse for good and screw up my kids. This lasts usually no more than two days and I'm suddenly 100% OK with no symptoms at all. Lately, I've been reacting to the panic attacks more naturally and just let the shit ride and don't obsess over them. It's taken a change in perspective to do that.

On to the meds - I currently take 1 mg of xanax to help prevent panic attacks. .25 in the morning, .25 at 4-5 p.m. and .5 mg before I go to bed. Zach, what do you make of that dosage. I've noticed bad effects when attempting to jump off too quickly. I'd rather not take it at all but it does seem to work and I don't have the need to go up ever.

Anyway...let's discuss and let our inner child out.


Hey Yabs. Yeah, I know I overkill my anxiety med talk on this board. I figure there are a lot of peeps out there with similar issues. OK, first of all, my symptoms: I have generalized anxiety disorder (not social anxiety disorder) so many of my truly anxious times result from being in unfamiliar surroundings that don't serve alcohol (malls, grocery stores, school). I get all stuttery and sweaty and just kinda freak out. Now, when I have panic attacks, I get truly fucked in the head. I start thinking worse possibility scenarios, like imagining my lungs are filling with fluid or feel like my heart is about to stop. My vision gets blurry and I become even more stuttery and wacked out, My hands and face get cold, yet I sweat a cold, cold sweat. The worst full blown panic attacks are the ones that helped me try to take control over every thing anxiety related. It doesn't help that I like to drink and occasionally smoke weed, since a hangover gives me anxiety and being really, really high sometimes does the same (especially if I'm smoking with people I don't really know---doesn't happen much anymore). Oh, and fucking airplanes... I've had two flights that would fall in most people's "worst 2 flight experiences of all times" including one flying out of Palm Springs on a little 20 person commuter plane (this was the 2002 Spring Break and I took some friends out to my parents' place). I used to love flying. I mean, I loved it. I flew everytime I could... Until that flight. Now, I brace myself for huge thermals coming from everywhere and i can't relax on a flight unless I have maybe 2-3 double scotches before I get on the plane, then another 2 singles per hour on my flight, bare minimum. Oh, and at least 1-2 doubles per stopover, if time permits. Then I hit the first airport bar I see when i get off the plane.

When I flew to Portland for my sister-in-law's wedding, my wife and in-laws picked me up at the airport. I apologized for how drunk I was and just kinda shrugged. My wife's mother came over, put her arm around me and said, "Don't worry. We know that once you hit the airport you've got to drink. It's just a trait of yours and you shouldn't apologize." (They refuse to fly, they drive everywhere). I think I had approximately 15-18 scotches that time but I was coherent enough to hang out at the afterparty we went to, down a few beers, without making too big of an idiot of myself.

OK, now to meds:
First off, if your Dr ever, ever tries to put you on Paxil, just say "FUCK OFF". That shit is absolutely evil. I pretty much feel that way about Xanax too. Yabs, you're not taking too much (1mg a day is pretty conservative), but you're developing a habit that it far harder to break than you'll realize. Xanax has the shortest halflife of all the benzo's, are the most addictive, have the worst withdrawal effects (which are often more severe than the original anxiety/panic attacks) and are being forcefed to everyone. I was up to taking an obscene amount of Xanax (between 8-16MG a day, with some days being more chill and some being even higher dosers). When my bottle of 120 4-bars (2mg) would come in from my online pharmacy, I'd just tilt the bottle back, let 6-7 pills slip in my mouth, then drink a beer to wash them down. Looking back, it was utterly inexcusable behavior that caused me a lot of personal, work-related and friendship problems. I went to a shrink and started weaning off with XANAX-Extended release and got completely off of Xanax in about 5-6 months. Much more difficult to kick than the whole exstacy or crystal meth phases, and waaaay more difficult than kicking any coke binge. An article I read compared the withdrawal effects (how debilitating they were) to heroin, though not as severe.

Yabs, I'd recommend telling your physician that you'd like to switch to Klonopin. It's in the same family as Valium, Xanax, Ativan (Lorazepam) et al, but also has a much longer shelf life (you only have to take it once a day, maybe twice) and it actually works far better than Xanax. Personally, I even like Valium and Lorazepam way better than Xanax. I try to change up meds fairly often, so that I can't get too dependent on any one. I tried the Chinese Herbal pills for a month or so and had the worst anxiety of my life. Anyway, I'd at least ask for Klonopin (aka clonazepam) from your doctor. Tell him/her that you read some articles talking about how bad Xanax is... I can send you some, if you'd like or just google until you find an article called "High Anxiety (I believe that's the name of it). there are a couple other pills that fall in the benzo grouping: nitrazepam, bromezepam and flormidal are a couple that work really well. Especially the nitrazepam. So right now, I have various small personal quantities of Valium, Klonopin, Nitrazepam, and flormidal around at most times and I try to keep everything mixed up (not together, but try not to go with on for more than three days without switching). Unfortunately, I know of no place to get Nitrazepam and flormidal in the states, so I recommend Klonopin to any anxiety sufferers. They even make a "melt in the mouth" tab for panic attacks... Quite effective. I'd be happy to answer any questions, but given the current state of this message board as a whole, I assume this thread will lure many a jackass that completely ruin the thread. Seriously though, any questions about medications, anxiety in general... feel free to PM me if you desire anonymity. It's a shitty condition, misdiagnosed by many doctors, mishandled by many patients, and largely misunderstood by non-anxiety sufferers...

bballarl
03-03-2007, 10:00 PM
This thread is interesting.

nothingman00
03-03-2007, 10:03 PM
Oh, and Yabs, the worst panic attacks are the ones that start off small (like you mention) then become self0fulilling prophecies (again, like you mentioned) where everything just becomes bleaker and bleaker until you feel reality kinda slipping away. A couple non-medication things I can recommend are dipping your head in cold water or taking a cold shower. Also, slapping yourself in the face while looking in a mirror often works. By that point, you aren't really recognizing yourself and cold water and physical slaps work OK.

fortydollarsworthofmeat
03-03-2007, 10:43 PM
this is interesting. good thread.


The amazing thing is how many other people are dealing with this and the cultural stigma associated with talking about it.

why do you think it's so prevalent?

it's a strange dichotomy for me - on one hand, i feel (sort of from experience) that we are human and we are intelligent and resourceful enough to overcome any sort of obstacles (mental or otherwise) that we encounter without the help of a shrink or a bottle of pills.

on the other hand i think that BECAUSE we're intelligent and resourceful, we've ended up causing problems in our lives than we aren't normally capable of dealing with.

very confusing, not sure if i explained that well enough.


It's funny you mention pot. I had two panic attacks from smoking pot - through a bong both times.

i don't smoke pot for kind of a similar reason. while i have no history of a "panic attack", i get extremely anxious and paranoid when high, regardless of the amount smoked. this is made stranger by the fact that i smoked pot daily for about a year in high school and then quit abruptly for several years. when i tried it again, i got physically ill.

nothingman00
03-03-2007, 10:50 PM
Kristen, I think the pot-anxiety corollary is very real and usually plays out like you describe it. I was an everyday smoker for several years, then had to quit for a job. When I resumed smoking, I started getting different reactions. i think it;s because, in High School and even parts of college, you;re not really dealing with the real world. Things are just new and great and life is this big open window luring you out into the great big unknown... Once your life settles down a bit, you start thinking about real-world things when you get stoned.

corpathina
03-03-2007, 10:54 PM
i used to have pretty serious anxiety and depression problems. was finally diagnosed as bipolar, got on lexapro and seroquel, went to a few years of counseling and drug rehab, and now i'm an entirely different person.

i don't wish to remember much about the bad times. i just hope to serve as proof that you really can get better. so for all you hopeless kiddos, cheer up.

fatbastard
03-03-2007, 10:54 PM
Yab.

Sorry that this is a part of your life. I respect your honesty. The fact that you can speak about so freely on this subject says a lot you.

From what I understand there are thousands of medications for you to choose from. You just need to see what works for you. The diabetes comments rings in quite well with this conversation. This is something that has to constantly be monitored (good days and bad).

nothingman00
03-03-2007, 11:02 PM
Yablo, Seriously. Try Klonopin for a week and tell me it isn't remarkably more effective and less affecting than Xanax. You can probably take 1 .5MG pill when you wake up and it lasts the whole day. Or, take a 1 MG and a .5 before bed if you have insomnia. It is so much better and so less dangerous than Xanax. I just tried to google that article and couldn't find it. Let me see if I can find the article and I'll link it for you. It's pretty harrowing with the way it mentions Xanax.

full on idle
03-04-2007, 12:10 AM
I so don't feel comfortable discussing my mental instability with people I don't know.
What a useful post. You must have attended the zzzz school of relevant self expression.

On topic: you're all nuts, up your meds.

SojuGorae
03-04-2007, 12:39 AM
Chris Rock was right.

keriann
03-04-2007, 12:46 AM
The amazing thing is how many other people are dealing with this and the cultural stigma associated with talking about it.

I think the cultural stigma is really unfortunate, and I think it leads to a lot of self-medication. I know a handful of people who smoke pot daily to deal with what seems like generalized anxiety disorder to me. I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing, because I don't know that xanax is really any better for a person than marijuana is, but I think it's unfortunate that the cultural stigma inhibits people from seeking professional help and truly understanding their illness. I don't think any of these people who I've mentioned have any idea that they might possibly have a diagnosable mental illness.

SojuGorae
03-04-2007, 12:53 AM
"If they miss an episode of St. Elsewhere you'd better lock the doors and bolt the medicine cabinet"

-Chris Rock-

nothingman00
03-04-2007, 01:00 AM
"If they miss an episode of St. Elsewhere you'd better lock the doors and bolt the medicine cabinet"

-Chris Rock-

I must be missing something... What exactly is the joke?

SojuGorae
03-04-2007, 01:05 AM
I must be missing something... What exactly is the joke?

It was on either "Bring Da Pain" or "Bigger and Blacker"

He was poking fun at the quick dependence white kids have on medication for mental difficulties. If I can remember correctly that is. I might be getting it wrong.

snowgirl_69
03-04-2007, 02:05 AM
Hey guys, hope you don't mind me posting!!! Im a mental health nurse and practice Cognitice Behavioural Therapy, wicked treatment for anxiety if it clicks with you...anyone tried it?? Yablonowitz you seem to be using CBT techniques which have worked for you.xx

TomAz
03-04-2007, 02:52 AM
I'd rather not take it at all

why? I don't mean to read too much in to that statement, but you seem to be implying that you have some sort of guilt, or something, for taking the drug. As if you think you really shouldn't need it. is this cuz it's a psych med? if we were talking about your taking a drug for, say, i dunno, gastric reflux or something, would you have the same attitude?

PotVsKtl
03-04-2007, 03:11 AM
I wonder how people used to get by before they invented 400 different anxiety/depression "treatments."

thefunkylama
03-04-2007, 03:15 AM
Having been on Ritalin when I was younger, I can respect both sides of that feeling. I hated to take the medication in part because I just don't like taking pills in general. I don't take cold medicine unless I really feel I can't cope, and I don't take Tylenol unless I have a skull-splitting migraine. The other side of the coin is that it's like admitting that you can't handle your own brain or body... the only thing that's really yours to control has to be subdued first. It's like being in a race, knowing you've been given a head start because otherwise you wouldn't have a chance. It's not a very uplifting or enabling feeling.

Anyway. Reading this thread has given me the idea that perhaps it's time I did something about my hypersensitivity to failure.

Courtney
03-04-2007, 05:45 AM
Yablo, this is an awesome thread. Stigmatizing mental health issues is lame.

I used to take bupropion (Wellbutrin) for depression when I was younger, and then I took Zoloft for a while. Now I just go jogging and do a lot of yoga, and that works for the most part.

gaypalmsprings
03-04-2007, 08:03 AM
I wonder how people used to get by before they invented 400 different anxiety/depression "treatments."

1. Self medication - alcohol, illegal drugs, etc.
2. Suicide
3. Lived on the street

Yablonowitz
03-04-2007, 09:35 AM
Hey Yabs. Yeah, I know I overkill my anxiety med talk on this board. I figure there are a lot of peeps out there with similar issues.
I wasn't criticizing you for it. I was impressed with how willing you were to talk about it and since this is stuff I go through and I imagine others do as well...I'm all for throwing the issue out there to get different viewpoints. That said, I wasn't exactly seeking advice. Although, admittedly, I asked Zach his opinion on the xanax I'm taking. I'm incredibly well versed in this stuff...I've read tons on it and know more than I ever thought I would about the effects of many of the drugs and therapeutic methods being used.

Also, I don't think people should feel they have to talk about their specific issues if they don't want to. Maybe just discuss meds or CBT or whatever...bareing your soul is not a requirement.



OK, now to meds:
First off, if your Dr ever, ever tries to put you on Paxil, just say "FUCK OFF". That shit is absolutely evil. I pretty much feel that way about Xanax too. Yabs, you're not taking too much (1mg a day is pretty conservative), but you're developing a habit that it far harder to break than you'll realize. Xanax has the shortest halflife of all the benzo's, are the most addictive, have the worst withdrawal effects (which are often more severe than the original anxiety/panic attacks) and are being forcefed to everyone. I was up to taking an obscene amount of Xanax (between 8-16MG a day, with some days being more chill and some being even higher dosers). When my bottle of 120 4-bars (2mg) would come in from my online pharmacy, I'd just tilt the bottle back, let 6-7 pills slip in my mouth, then drink a beer to wash them down. Looking back, it was utterly inexcusable behavior that caused me a lot of personal, work-related and friendship problems. I went to a shrink and started weaning off with XANAX-Extended release and got completely off of Xanax in about 5-6 months. Much more difficult to kick than the whole exstacy or crystal meth phases, and waaaay more difficult than kicking any coke binge. An article I read compared the withdrawal effects (how debilitating they were) to heroin, though not as severe.

Yeah, I'm on 1mg xanax a day. I go to a psychiatrist who is one of the best in the state and has seen literally 1,000s of patients. Sadly, people often associate psychiatrists as dispassionate zombies who just plug people full of medicines to shut them up ("One Flew Over the Coo-Coo's Nest did a lot to instill this image in people). But it's not the case. Going to a psychiatrist for mental health issues is like going to a cardiologist for heart problems - smart. The guy I go to is as interested in keeping me on the smallest dose of drugs possible with the goal of eventually not needing them at all. The real problem with overprescription and misuse of meds, in my opinion, are general practicioners who are not as informed about the full effects of the drugs, particularly when it comes to dosing. So, while I agree with your concern with xanax to a degree, I also feel fairly comfortable with where I'm at. 1 mg a day is a completely different ballpark than 8-16 mgs a day. Dosing is crucial. At my very worst, I will allow myself to go up to 2 mg a day, but that's only happened twice in my life.

I think we need to be careful in what we recommend about medications and what information we show people about the effects of the drugs. For one thing, we're talking about people with anxiety and some people's individual horror stories when it comes to medication can be very damaging to someone who is already worrying about what's going to happen to them. There could be a lot of reasons a drug didn't work for someone. My advice, go to a professional - go to a psychiatrist. There are a lot of scare tactics and misleading information on the Internet about effects of all of these drugs. Much of it stems either from a paranoia of "control" by doctors and results from people who did not follow proper dosing procedures or go to a professional and were given more mgs of whatever drug they were on to start with than they should have. Lastly, remember that everyone has a different chemistry and what one person's experience is with a drug is not necessarily what another's will be.

Zach - with xanax, I'm pretty well informed about its habit-forming issues, the quick half-life and difficulties with withdrawls. My dosage, compared to yours at its peak is really apples and oranges. However, I have had bad experiences by trying to jump off too quickly. I know that my body has an attachment with it and if I decide to go down or get off, I have to move slowly and deliberately. That said, I'm not convinced that I should get off it at this point. I experience no side effects and my body responds well to it. Also, I'm pretty sure the effects of xanax are different when in combination with alcohol.

On to Paxil - yep, I'm on that too. You probably think I'm a walking disaster! I'm more sympathetic to your concerns about paxil than xanax. I wish I was on another anti-depressant because I get some undesirable side effects from it - the worst being what they call "paresthesia" - or a weird electrical sensation in my brain at certain times. Some days it's worse than others. Withdrawal from Paxil is guaranteed to be a struggle. I'm at 50mgs a day for that and would like to go down and/or switch, but I don't want to do anything rash.

Again, I'm not really looking for advice - though I welcome other people's opinions on this, even if it's something I think is wrong-headed or misleading. I'm just saying, I'm not bringing this up as a way to get sympathy or to get help. I'm just curious about other people's experiences and opinions because this stuff is very common.

I, in fact, have some un-requested opinions about what you wrote (please feel free to tell me to fuck off). Honestly, we don't know the truth of anyone's situation so quick judgements are probably counter productive.


many of my truly anxious times result from being in unfamiliar surroundings that don't serve alcohol (malls, grocery stores, school). I get all stuttery and sweaty and just kinda freak out. Now, when I have panic attacks, I get truly fucked in the head. I start thinking worse possibility scenarios, like imagining my lungs are filling with fluid or feel like my heart is about to stop. My vision gets blurry and I become even more stuttery and wacked out, My hands and face get cold, yet I sweat a cold, cold sweat. The worst full blown panic attacks are the ones that helped me try to take control over every thing anxiety related. It doesn't help that I like to drink and occasionally smoke weed, since a hangover gives me anxiety and being really, really high sometimes does the same (especially if I'm smoking with people I don't really know---doesn't happen much anymore). Oh, and fucking airplanes... I've had two flights that would fall in most people's "worst 2 flight experiences of all times" including one flying out of Palm Springs on a little 20 person commuter plane (this was the 2002 Spring Break and I took some friends out to my parents' place). I used to love flying. I mean, I loved it. I flew everytime I could... Until that flight. Now, I brace myself for huge thermals coming from everywhere and i can't relax on a flight unless I have maybe 2-3 double scotches before I get on the plane, then another 2 singles per hour on my flight, bare minimum. Oh, and at least 1-2 doubles per stopover, if time permits. Then I hit the first airport bar I see when i get off the plane.

When I flew to Portland for my sister-in-law's wedding, my wife and in-laws picked me up at the airport. I apologized for how drunk I was and just kinda shrugged. My wife's mother came over, put her arm around me and said, "Don't worry. We know that once you hit the airport you've got to drink. It's just a trait of yours and you shouldn't apologize." (They refuse to fly, they drive everywhere). I think I had approximately 15-18 scotches that time but I was coherent enough to hang out at the afterparty we went to, down a few beers, without making too big of an idiot of myself.

This sort of alarmed me. It seems from what you're saying that you may need to focus on your dependence on alcohol. Getting anxiety in places where places don't serve alcohol, drinking large quantities of alcohol on a plane for medication sounds kinda scarey to me. I don't drink much at all. If I had that kind of stress getting on an airplane, I'd find equal relief in taking a .25mg of xanax without the expense of the drinks and the stupor and potential embarrassment of being drunk off my butt on a plane. Don't mean to criticize, seriously. I don't know your specifics. But the amount of alcohol you consume and your dependence on it seems like more of an issue to me than the xanax was. I mean, how much more difficult would it have been for you to stop drinking than go down on xanax? The high dosage level of xanax you were on seems largely a result of your drinking habits (again, correct me if you think I'm wrong or tell me to go fuck myself, I'll take it). I'm glad you were able to get off xanax successfully and I don't know much about klonopin. That suggestion may be worthwhile for me, but I don't really have a severe problem with xanax. (ooooh, listen to me, I sound like an addict).

Also, I did try switching to valium but it was too quick. We tried replacing valium with xanax without going down on the xanax first. These situations can become catch 22s pretty fast. At the moment, I'm not too concerned about it. There are plenty of times I forget to take my afternoon hit (I freebase this stuff, you should try it...wild stuff) and I don't even notice an effect.


Yablo, Seriously. Try Klonopin for a week and tell me it isn't remarkably more effective and less affecting than Xanax. You can probably take 1 .5MG pill when you wake up and it lasts the whole day. Or, take a 1 MG and a .5 before bed if you have insomnia. It is so much better and so less dangerous than Xanax. I just tried to google that article and couldn't find it. Let me see if I can find the article and I'll link it for you. It's pretty harrowing with the way it mentions Xanax.

I'll talk about it with my doc. I meet with him probably once every 6 weeks.


He was poking fun at the quick dependence white kids have on medication for mental difficulties. If I can remember correctly that is. I might be getting it wrong.

It's true that these meds are over and misprescribed, probably most detrimentally to young children. I really think you should not be going to a general practictioner for these issues whether on behalf of your child or yourself. People are on these that don't need to be, it has turned into a cosmetic lifestyle "enhancement" which is highly irresponsible.

However, I know there are people who get real, measurable benefits from medication. There is almost always a tradeoff with side effects. But there are people who simply are better off with the meds than without, regardless of all other behavioral changes they make. It's just the truth.


I wonder how people used to get by before they invented 400 different anxiety/depression "treatments."

Alcoholism and suicide. Seriously, though, this is a question I've asked myself probably 10,000 times. I have no idea what would have happened to me had I not got meds but at the time that I did, I could barely get out of bed in the morning and I frequently worried I would wind up in a mental institution or dead in some way. When this stuff hits you full on, your perception is so skewed and so distorted that you base your whole outlook on life from an inexplicable (at this point) change in your body chemistry. It wasn't talked about earlier and no one has reliable statistics to know if it's just becoming a crutch and a boon for pharmaceutial companies (probably at least partially true) for problems that could be dealt with better on your own than through drugs. There's also the fact that life itself has changed dramatically at the same time that these new approaches to mental health have come up. You're back at a chicken and egg situation and I think it's wrong to assume that it's a bad trend to take meds for this stuff. What did people with diabetes do before insulin treatment? I mean...you deal with the environment you're living in. I've been helped by the meds, I may have been harmed by them too. Overall though, I'm a happy guy and feel this situation I have is at worst an inconvienence.

This is, I believe, partly because I don't lean on medication as THE answer. Someone mentioned CBT, and I think I've started using CBT techniques effectively, or at least more effectively than I used to. Also, I exercise regularly - 30 minutes a day, 5 days a week. That's nothing stellar, but there are noticeable benefits to it and it may simply be as effective as any (or all) of the medications I take. Lastly, I know myself well enough to know I need to get regular sleep. Sleep is a big part of my stability. When I consistently get shitty sleep, I'm far more prone to panic attacks.

Really - I don't claim to know what is right for people with this problem or that I'm doing what's right exactly. I don't know. It's working pretty well. I know very well that there is a strong physical component to this that's a combination of genes and the pecularities of my own nervous system. The level of physicality that hits me when I have a panic attack are almost impossible to overstate - extreme fatigue, dehydration, loss of appetitie - instantaneous.

Alright, there's my novella for the morning.

nothingman00
03-04-2007, 12:31 PM
Actually Yabs, a lot of what you said is pretty much right on. I do use alcohol (not as much anymore) as a crutch for anxiety meds. The plane thing was just plain freaky. I know a lot of people say that they've had a near death experience, but for about 45 minutes on that plane, all I could think about was the laundry list of things I'd never get to do with my life. Now, everytime I'm in a plane that's about to take off, I just get a very trapped felling, start hyperventilating, get cold, balmy, can;t catch my breath, and generally wish their was an escape hatch. So, I overcompensate by drinking beforehand and during flights, then usually have a relief drink after landing. Also, when I say "at my peak", please understand that that peak lasted maybe 3 months. I was taking Xanax for about 7 years before that. I had gradually increased my dosage, and had the unfortunate experience of having one of those therapists that actually DID just plug me full of meds. Her reaction to me not having high-enough doses of Xanax was to simply put me on higher dosage of Xanax, taken more frequently, with Paxil added in. (Oh, and the electrical buzz with Paxil was the absolute worst. Plus, it made my sex life less enjoyable and zapped my libido.) I was the one who abused the Xanax to the point where I was completely preventing myself from getting any benefits. Anyway, when I was weaned off, I was good until it came to the final step, going from approx 1MG a day to none. That's the only reason I brought it up to you. Exercise and diet certainly helped, but that last MG was so fucking tough to get off. In fact, we had to start subbing Klonopin every other day for a week, until my body got used to it. I'm not trying to be an alarmist, in any way, but I've had a couple friends who were longtime Xanax users (who had small daily regimens, not absurd ones) that can identify and have had similar problems getting completely weaned off Xanax, and are now either taking nothing (though they ask me to bum them pills every time I see them--"just for emergencies that may arise" of course) or are taking Klonopin. There have been times where I have completely quit taking all meds, and some days I'll be fine (irritable but fine) while others I'll be all over the place mentally. I always have at least 1-2 pills in the little small "pocket-in-a-pocket" in my jeans, for emergency issues.

In a nutsack (there you go, Hannah), I was abusing both Xanax and alcohol at a fairly alarming rate/ Hell, I was smoking too much weed, too. But, when I started working after school (about 5 years ago), I had everything leveled down or out. I wasn't smoking at all, drinking a little wine every now and then, not drinking scotch (unless I flew), and only taking 2-3MG's daily of Xanax. I had gotten myself off of Paxil (that was an interesting adventure because at times it feels as those your brain is losing connectivity--like you can feel neurons firing and missing the receptor and other times you almost feel like you're on X and you're almost euphoric. i guess what I'm saying is that our situations are certainly different, and while alcohol seemed to play a larger role in my anxiety, I can attest to a big difference being made by switching from Xanax to Klonopin. By that point, I was boxing fairly regularly and playing hoops whenever I got a chance (which was the best workout program I was ever on), eating absolutely zero empty calories, drinking an occasional glass of wine, not smoking, etc. While that made it easier to ween myself off of Xanax, it still wouldn't permit my total eradication of Xanax from my bloodstream. Since switching to Klonopin, there have been several times where i have been able to go a few days without taking it, but usually I just succumb to the easier way.

Finally, of course I don;t consider you "a walking disaster", Yablo. I would find it hard to say anything negative about anyone and panic attacks. The generalized anxiety disorder is bothersome and grating. The panic attacks are absolutely unbearable in almost every way. There's a feeling of impending doom and probable death that, despite your best attempts at denial, manages to surface. I can't tell you how many times I've started having a panic attack, convinced myself that everything was going to be OK, then had a palpitation or two, felt that lightheaded near-fainting feeling, then completely plunged into a full-mode panic attack, where I have to take a cold shower, slap myself, and basically feel like I'm trying to keep myself alive. The alcohol exacerbated (and maybe to some degree still does) those symptoms, but I've tried the no-drinking approach and realized that it's something I enjoy and I won;t give it up. I'm not a mean drunk, not an abusive drunk in any way, not even a drunk actually. Most of the time, people couldn't tell if I've had one drink, 8 drinks or none at all. I don't get the shakes, don't feel the need to drink in the morning (though I don't purposefully abstain from drinking at any time of the day). I drink when I want to, but I don't drink before driving (EVER) and I don't really get drunk or buzzed very often. Right now, I'm drinking a beer and I'm about to delve into my take home exam for International Business. It's all just a part of my day.

mountmccabe
03-04-2007, 12:57 PM
The amazing thing is how many other people are dealing with this and the cultural stigma associated with talking about it.

One of the reasons the above exists is the following:


I think we need to be careful in what we recommend about medications and what information we show people about the effects of the drugs. For one thing, we're talking about people with anxiety and some people's individual horror stories when it comes to medication can be very damaging to someone who is already worrying about what's going to happen to them.

There could be a lot of reasons a drug didn't work for someone. My advice, go to a professional - go to a psychiatrist.

There are a lot of scare tactics and misleading information on the Internet about effects of all of these drugs. Much of it stems either from a paranoia of "control" by doctors and results from people who did not follow proper dosing procedures or go to a professional and were given more mgs of whatever drug they were on to start with than they should have. Lastly, remember that everyone has a different chemistry and what one person's experience is with a drug is not necessarily what another's will be.
(The above was split into paragraphs by mountmccabe)

I'm not saying that there's a contradiction in your thinking; the latter refers to a specific aspect of the former... but cultural norms can't be that specific about such topics - especially such topics where treatment methods are new (on the time scale of civilizations.)

The fact that relatively safe and effective treatments are new is also one big reason the culture doesn't want to talk about it; it's a hold over from when there was nothing you could do anyway except folks up and ignore them. And hope they don't damage your marriage prospects.


That being said people don't talk about diabetes enough either.

PotVsKtl
03-04-2007, 01:54 PM
Paxil withdrawal nearly killed me. Fuck a doctor. I take 5HTP and St. John's Wort.

Yablonowitz
03-04-2007, 02:38 PM
What's 5HTP?

mountmccabe
03-04-2007, 02:40 PM
5-HTP, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HTP)

thefunkylama
03-04-2007, 02:45 PM
Hmm... interesting.

nothingman00
03-04-2007, 03:10 PM
Paxil withdrawal nearly killed me. Fuck a doctor. I take 5HTP and St. John's Wort.

Pot, How has the 5HTP worked for you? I had heard of that before but never tried it. I'd appreciate any firsthand info you could provide. Does it carry any negative side effects at all? I'm intrigued.

Yablonowitz
03-04-2007, 04:09 PM
Stef's article and the comments about paxil withdrawal is worrisome to me. I've been on it for 7 years now and I eventually want to get off of it - either substitute it with another less harmful SSRI or go without entirely. But that long on a medication, at least according to the article stef posted, may make getting off nearly impossible, it sounds. Yeesh, I reap what I sow with this thread, I guess.

nothingman00
03-04-2007, 04:40 PM
Yabs, the thing I admire most about you is that you are truthful with yourself. As long as your current regimen is working for you, then you are conquering your affliction, or at least rendering it less damaging. Bottom line- you feel better. That's what your ultimate goal, until you can withdraw completely. So you're better off than you thought. Keep Klonopin (in mind) if you're at that point where you can;t get off Xanax completely. It will help you get off Xanax, then it will be fairly easy to get off Klonopin. Or, get the meltin-your-mouth Klonopin. Zaps panic attacks.

adamnikyo
03-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Crazy people type too many words.

PotVsKtl
03-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Pot, How has the 5HTP worked for you? I had heard of that before but never tried it. I'd appreciate any firsthand info you could provide. Does it carry any negative side effects at all? I'm intrigued.

I'm not aware of any side effects. It works well for me, I just feel generally more relaxed and less angry. Of course, it does the exact same thing Paxil does, increase serotonin and therefore has the same negative effects which caused me to subject myself to the electrical brain shocks of Paxil withdrawal - namely, being a fucking zombie. I try to keep the dose low and stagger it, it seems more effective during initial use than as a prolonged supplement. So I go on and off it. I'm pretty sure extended periods of MDMA use caused a lot of my problems, so 5HTP is perfect.

Monko
03-04-2007, 05:36 PM
Yablo, this is an awesome thread. Stigmatizing mental health issues is lame.

I used to take bupropion (Wellbutrin) for depression when I was younger, and then I took Zoloft for a while. Now I just go jogging and do a lot of yoga, and that works for the most part.

This is like the smartest poster on this board.

Jogging and Yoga instead of drugs, this is what I try to tell people. If you are having a panic attack, just say fuck it, and start running down the street, eventually you will forget about your panic attack.

I have had some bouts with depression, I deal with slight anxiety sometimes too. I find that its most prevalent during extended periods of being lazy. Some people claim that they sit on the couch watching TV all day because they are depressed, I say its the TV thats causing the depression.

PotVsKtl
03-04-2007, 05:40 PM
Also, another reason I go on and off of this stuff is I don't particularly want to be satisfied or at rest or comfortable. Being a ticking time bomb is one thing, but being totally defused is a god damn bore and stifles my creative output.

Monko
03-04-2007, 05:42 PM
for you depressed people, try planning a therapy session with a shrink, tell them the problems you want the conquer and tell them that you will be extremely truthful and to make sure they pack alot into this session because it will be the only one you will goto with this doctor.

get some QUALITY E and go talk about your problems with the shrink.

Dont do it again, too much E will kill your brain.

Monko
03-04-2007, 05:47 PM
Did I mention Im kind of schizo, and those acid trips made me realize a bit more so now Im twice the schizo I used to be. still a 1-2 on a scale of 10, so coping with everyday life isn't so hard. Its those damned interpersonal relationships.

NeverMyopic
03-04-2007, 06:43 PM
This is all exactly the same as me (except I don't have kids).

I take 20mg of Citalopram every day. It helps me cope with the anxiety / panic attacks and is supposedly an anti-depressant too. I haven't really felt depressed in a long time, so it seems to be working. To be honest I think the depression was CAUSED by the anxiety a lot of the time, so it was a vicious cycle.

Anyway I started taking Citalopram in winter 2001 and have been on it since. I was very sick at that time, mentally, and was going through a very bad stage in my life. I won't bore anyone with the stories, but it wasn't fun.

Things have been a lot better for the past 18 months or so and I hope to be able to come off the medication completely soon, although the thought of that terrifies me, too.


Also I just wanted to say that anyone who has similar issues or who is even posting in this thread should please please read this (http://taylor-parkes.livejournal.com/21855.html). It's a livejournal post by a guy I know. He's a journalist and used to write for Melody Maker (a weekly music magazine like the NME) and I think that's a great article.

Hey, Stefinitely Maybe, I am on that as well, except 40mg (or 20mg of LexaPro). ever since I moved to Lexington, Kentucky from Southern California I have been very depressed. Also, I take Allegra 180, as my allergies kill at certain times.

I hope neither of these have any weird side effects with recreational drugs. :-) just being honest.

Courtney
03-04-2007, 07:25 PM
This is like the smartest poster on this board.

Jogging and Yoga instead of drugs, this is what I try to tell people. If you are having a panic attack, just say fuck it, and start running down the street, eventually you will forget about your panic attack.

I have had some bouts with depression, I deal with slight anxiety sometimes too. I find that its most prevalent during extended periods of being lazy. Some people claim that they sit on the couch watching TV all day because they are depressed, I say its the TV thats causing the depression.

Thanks, but this isn't what I meant at all. Each person is different, and so what works for one person may not work for others. For myself, I have found that endorphin-releasing exercise and yoga, along with a healthy diet and limited caffeine, is what keeps me happy and relatively anxiety-free. But certainly for some people this moderate approach may not be enough and they may truly need prescription drugs to get through the day in any sort of functional way.

I do worry about people who (like myself) are getting prescribed psychiatric drugs when still teenagers, and who may go through much of their life without even trying to see if there are other less invasive methods of dealing with whatever issues they may have. I found that Prozac didn't work at all for me, Wellbutrin made me hyperactive and Zoloft basically just dulled everything to the point where I was feeling neither happy nor sad and also had basically lost all sex drive. Certainly prescription drugs are better than most self-medicating solutions, but I think it's important to explore all possible avenues and be an informed consumer when you're talking about your own body, no matter what the specifics of your situation are.

Yablonowitz
03-04-2007, 07:35 PM
Nevermyopic - love the signature. I like Metric. Not sure if I've ever said that before.

rubsITallAWAY
03-04-2007, 07:44 PM
Yablo, this is an awesome thread. Stigmatizing mental health issues is lame.

I used to take bupropion (Wellbutrin) for depression when I was younger, and then I took Zoloft for a while. Now I just go jogging and do a lot of yoga, and that works for the most part.

Courtney,

I'm totally with you on this one. I participated in a depression/ anxiety study. It was also to see what part genetics, if any, plays in it all. It was really interesting. Anyhow, I don't think I was severely depressed.. but had underlying issues... but I thought the meds really helped... I was feeling a lot better, able to enjoy things more, able to handle my son's school issues and start things easier... I actually started to have anxious thoughts about if I was going to be ok once the study was over.

And when it finally did end I got really depressed and lathargic. Come to find out, at the same time I was training for a half marathon that took place around the same time my meds ended... Needless to say, I couldn't move let alone exercise for a week before and after the race. I chalked my lack of motivation to the med absence. But once I continued my training for another half marathon the running brought me the natural high back and all is well!! Not to mention I am overweight and the running is really slimming... helping the depression to lessen.

Great job everyone for sharing and bringing the issue up. Hope all have a great week and Coachella will be here before we know it!

Jenniehoo
03-04-2007, 10:28 PM
I took a tour round the Scientology Center in LA last year, after Coachella. I went with three friends, for the hell of it. We walked in (three guys and one girl) and they made us stand in the lobby and then this hot blonde girl around our age came to show us around. I am sure if we had been three girls and one guy then a hot guy would have been our guide, to lure us in.

Anyway, the tour was predictably ludicrous, and at the end they asked if we wanted to buy any books or ask any questions. We declined the books but I decided to ask a question. I said to her "How long have you been in scientology and why did you join?". She replied "Four years, and I joined because people used to take advantage of me, and I was really gullible before I joined the church, but they helped me change all that."

I swear to god that is what she said.

We had no further questions.

I got told I wasn't "a desired candidate for the Church of Scientology" after I took the test. It made me feel really inadequate - because I was just doing it out of curiosity, but I did answer honestly on their test. Kind of "I DONT WANT TO BE IN YOUR CLUB ANYWAY, SO THERE" kind of thing. Now I cut myself.


Most of those things are true.

Jenniehoo
03-04-2007, 10:35 PM
And 5HTP is genuinely effective. St. John's Wort never made me feel any different - I've never taken prescription drugs, so I can't comment on most of this, but I noticed a really big change in my personality after I quit smoking pot a lot. I was happier and more at ease. That's kind of "duh" - but for a long time I convinced myself it was the only thing that could make me happy.

Monko
03-04-2007, 11:36 PM
Thanks, but this isn't what I meant at all. Each person is different, and so what works .................................... situation are.

I had just toked some reefer earlier, excuse me for being a tad inarticulate.


you mentioned caffeine, thats one hell of a drug. If I drink a can of monster per day for 7 days, or sometimes less, I get hit with some nasty withdrawals the next day I miss a "dose". May linger for a few days if I sit around the house and sulk. Exercise is pretty much my medicine.

Alice
03-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Really very good that this is being discussed.
Last time I heard these issues affect 1 in 5 and that was a good while ago.

I was on effexor for 6 years, from 120mg at first then down to 35.7mg towards the end.
It helped when I needed it, to be able to function properlly and not want to kill myself or be crying most of the time.
Its been a year since I got off them and things are going really well, haven't felt the need to go back but am aware that may happen and not to be closed to it.
As to the earlier raised question of what did people do before there were meds?
The world has changed alot over the years, different pressures on every level of being, which cannot go unnoticed in the mass population. Look at obesity, or for that matter anorexia. Very different situations but still possibly a consequence of the norms of modern society.

Everyone has issues, no one has a perfect life, I believe that applies to every person on this planet.

Be well people and just remember that tomorrow is a new day!

jackstraw94086
03-05-2007, 12:28 AM
Darwinism into the trash can.

vinylmartyr
03-05-2007, 12:47 AM
I used to shoot up 600 mg of methadone a day for fun. When I quit I did not sleep for a month.

Courtney
03-05-2007, 12:49 AM
And that month was March 2007?

Mythos
03-05-2007, 01:22 AM
Hello my name is Mythos and I'm an anxiety victim.




My anxiety peaked when I quit smoking weed and tobacco and started living healthier. I moved up to Canada and am skiing and working up here and it's getting better. I know it's still lurking though.. panic attack waiting to strike. I'm unmedicated and proud. Anxiety can be conquered without meds.



Here's some useful info copied from a forum, (not written by me, but helpful):

Step 1 - Realizing I have anxiety and not any deadly diseases. Accepting my anxiety and its symptoms. It was very hard to do, but once I did, I was on my way to recovery.

Understanding that anxiety isn’t a disease. It’s an “over stimulated” nervous system. Also, it’s a way of thinking. Anxiety comes about when my nervous system has had too much. The symptoms that anxiety delivers are just a way of my body telling me enough is enough. It’s telling me it needs to rest. As soon as my body has had enough rest, the symptoms will go away.

Anxiety sufferers have a chemical imbalance in their brains. -The flight or fight response – is the way a body responds to fear. A body releases stress hormones into the blood stream for fight (i.e. fighting a bully) or flight (run away from a bully). The release of stress hormones gives the body the needed energy to fight or run away. Also, it causes the heart to beat faster, the need to go to the bathroom, causes sweat, breath shallow and fast, and dizziness/nausea. As soon as the body senses there is no danger, the brain releases serotonin, which calms the nervous system down.

Some anxiety sufferers are also worriers (the famous “What ifs”). This worrying causes the releases of stress hormones, which then lead to symptoms. Once these people starts feeling the symptoms they get scared and either try and figure why they have that symptom, or ask themselves “what if (I have ___? etc…)” or both. This then causes another release of stress hormones and it becomes an ongoing cycle.

Step 2 – Actions I took to get better:
1. Worrying – Stopped worrying and asking the “what ifs”. Stopped looking up symptoms on the internet. Accepted my symptoms were caused by anxiety. I wasn't sick. Distracted myself whenever I caught myself worrying and asking the “what ifs”. Distraction could be small, easy tasks (cleaning), counting backwards from 800 by 7s, reading a book, etc.

2. Stress – Tried to slow down and eliminate as much stress as I could.

3. Sleep – I need to sleep at least 8 hours a night, straight through every night, every night to get better. The body needs sleep to repair itself. It takes a long time for the nervous system to calm down. At first I used liquid benadryl to help. Once on a schedule, it was easier to fall and stay asleep.

4. Nutrition – I eliminated caffeine – Coffee, chocolate, soda, etc… - Caffeine stimulates the body. I was trying to calm the body down.

No raw sugar – Candy bars, soda, white breads, jelly, juices. The raw sugar will cause a spike in blood sugar level and the body will release stress hormones because they produce insulin to counteract the sugar. Then the blood sugar level will drop. I ate whole wheat products, lots of fruit and vegetables (natural, complex sugars that are harder for the body to break down), and protein.

I avoided alcohol and drugs, limited my salt intake. – Salt depletes potassium in the body and also raises blood pressure, a common symptom of anxiety, didn't overeat – Causes strain on the nervous system and may interfere with digestion.

I drank at least 8 glasses of water each day.

5. Exercise – every day. This is the most important step. No matter how bad I feel, I must exercise every day. It’s a proven fact that exercise alleviates anxiety and depression. All I need is 30 minutes of light to mild exercise (walking, cycling, jogging—as long as my heart rate is up) a day. I found that whenever I felt the worst, walking would make me feel better…it’s a good distraction.

Exercise lowers blood pressure, lowers heart rate, regulates the digestive system, controls blood sugar levels, lowers cholesterol, alleviates depression/anxiety, reduces muscle tension, improves immune system, improves sleep habits, increases energy, releases endorphins for up to 120 minutes after a workout.

6. Meditation and Deep Breathing

7. Possitive thinking. – Negative “self-talk” can induce stress, which then leads to the release of stress hormones. Being positive about life is hard to do but this way of thinking is what prevents the worrying and helps return my body back to its normal state. Having family or friends I can go to for support helps.

Step 3 – Practicing
I must practice all of these steps daily. After my first week of practicing diligently, I saw results. I experienced ups and downs during my recovery. Many psychologists believe that it can take up to 4 times as long for a body to recover from stress as it did to become stressed.

Where I Am now

It has been a little over 2 months since I started my recovery process (not including the psychologist). I feel great. I am not 100% anxiety free, but pretty darn close. I still have moments when I feel bad, but I know how to control it and it only lasts a couple minutes. It’s spring semester at school and I’m going to all my classes, studying, getting “A”s and feeling more human again. I actually feel the healthiest I’ve ever felt, although I lost some weight (I’ve always been a skinny guy). I look forward to exercising and have fun cooking my healthy meals. I’ve learned to be positive and always look at the glass half full instead of half empty. I will be attending the University of Florida in the spring of 2008.

While dealing with anxiety at its worst it was hard to think of how it benefitted me, but after dealing with it for the past 7 months, I have found good from it. Dealing with anxiety has made me a better and healthier person. I can now show emotions and still be a strong person at the same time. It has also changed the way I sleep and schedule my day. For the first time ever, I actually feel normal and happy. The word happy hasn’t come out of my mouth in a long time. Anxiety has also made me realize what is important to me in life and what’s not. I now enjoy life and what it has to offer me in the future. I am living proof that it is possible to cure anxiety or depression without any medications.

I believe that it's important to love my family…I never know what can happen. I live everyday as if it were my last.

I hope that reading about my experiences will help other people here.

Good Luck.

Stefinitely Maybe
03-05-2007, 01:41 AM
I'm not a depressed person or someone with deep psychological problems that stem from childhood traumas or growing up in a fucked up environment. Everything I experience is driven by anxiety and, in my opinion, an extremely sensitive nervous system. Throw in a compulsion to obsess over worst-case scenarios and that's when shit happens.

Same for me, Yablo.

I tried CBT a couple of years ago and it worked really well for me. Mostly though I just learned what triggered my anxiety and how to avoid it or be able to predict it or come to terms with it. It happens a lot less frequently now, although it's still a huge part of my everyday life.

TomAz
03-05-2007, 08:12 AM
I'd rather have anxiety than go through all that shit mythos described.

Also, all this talk of CBT should go on the "deviant sexual practices" thread. Sickos.

Stefinitely Maybe
03-05-2007, 08:15 AM
I'd rather have anxiety than go through all that shit mythos described.

That's easy enough to say, Tom, but when you are in the throes of a panic attack you basically feel like you are experiencing the worst pain or fear possible, and that you are about to die / kill yourself / kill someone else / do whatever it takes to stop yourself from feeling this way as quickly as possible.

TomAz
03-05-2007, 08:16 AM
I was joking, Mr. Serious.

psychic friend
03-05-2007, 08:34 AM
i had a panic attack once. it was a horrid experience, especially when you don't know that's what's happening. Never had one since. Had the start of one once but talked myself out of it. I never want to go through that again.

Yablonowitz
03-05-2007, 08:34 AM
Same for me, Yablo.

I tried CBT a couple of years ago and it worked really well for me. Mostly though I just learned what triggered my anxiety and how to avoid it or be able to predict it or come to terms with it. It happens a lot less frequently now, although it's still a huge part of my everyday life.

What do you make of that article from your friend you sent? To be honest, I found it kind of unsettling because I've been on ze paxil for 7 years now and the idea that I've caused permanent "imbalance" in my serotonin system is not very assuring. I'm not certain he's right about that, though. I could be misreading him. Also, he made a comment that after a while, everyone on an SSRI will start going through withdrawls even if they haven't gone off it...I don't think that's true either, at least I've never heard that. Do you know him personally pretty well? I think he might unintentionally be causing a lot of anxiety in people who read that...unless he's right.

amyzzz
03-05-2007, 08:54 AM
This thread makes me nervous and depressed all at once.

J~$$$
03-05-2007, 08:56 AM
MDMA.

amyzzz
03-05-2007, 09:04 AM
MDMA started up my mood swings again after 10 years of not having them. yay mood swings.

Monko
03-05-2007, 11:24 AM
MDMA started up my mood swings again after 10 years of not having them. yay mood swings.

MDMA is tricky. A fulfilling, well directed experience can set you down the road to recovering from depression or anxiety. For me it did just that, once I finally experienced a feeling of total control, and being completely at peace with myself, I set myself on a quest to feel those feelings again without the use of MDMA.

I say its tricky because although I believe it to set me down the right path, it might have broken my legs, so I couldn't travel down that path until they were healed.

snowgirl_69
03-05-2007, 11:29 AM
I'd rather have anxiety than go through all that shit mythos described.

Also, all this talk of CBT should go on the "deviant sexual practices" thread. Sickos.


What are you talking about Tom?!?

TomAz
03-05-2007, 11:31 AM
this thread here (http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3935) is what I am talking about.

full on idle
03-05-2007, 08:38 PM
And that month was March 2007?
ka-ZAM

NeverMyopic
03-05-2007, 09:31 PM
Nevermyopic - love the signature. I like Metric. Not sure if I've ever said that before.

Not to me. But I like Metric a lot.

But, I did want to tell you the thread is really cool. It is pretty different from most I've seen on here. A somewhat touchy and personal topic. It takes a lot of courage (I can't articulate it any other way) to just kind of come out and talk about it and ask the question to others..

We are all different and handle things different ways. Some people mentioned they don't like meds or they do other activities to relieve their syndromes; I am happy for them, but others may need the meds (go Placebo). I exercise almost everyday (play basketball, run a couple miles, lift some weights - used to surf), but I guess I still needed something during the "down times".

Anyway, good luck to all, and let's hope we can all work through our "items" in the best way we see fit.

Encaitare
03-05-2007, 11:05 PM
I want to thank you for starting this thread Yablo. Word for speaking your mind, however pained it may be. We're all strangers, but we have some things in common...



I so don't feel comfortable discussing my mental instability with people I don't know.

I can understand that mentality, but it can be the complete other way for some people too... There is such a stigma with mental illness that some issues just can't be brought up unless with close friends, and even then we are lucky if they can be supportive and understand. Sometimes it takes the unthreatening ear/screen of a stranger, someone you know won't tell your boss or your friends.

Freshmen year of High School, I remember the relief of understanding and friendship, love. Someone to hold my hand and take me to the morning blood tests, the after school psychiatrist visits, to reassure me that I was normal. But I remember even more the phone call later that year from his mother, telling me to stay away from her son and her family, how she knew about "people like me" - that is, people with bi-polar disorder. I remember her spitting the words out at me like I was some leper on a rampage. She, like so many other people, had some preconceived notion of manic-depression as some liscence to kill, some untreatable, unreliable devil of a disease that would sneak up on her family in the night and destroy them. And in many ways it is some unreliable devil, but only in the torment it causes in the minds of its victims.

Since then, I don't really talk about my problems. I've gone through countless treatments over the past 8 years. Paxil, Wellbutrin, Neurontin, Lithium, Lexapro, Topamax, Xanax, various combinations thereof; all are the names of battles either lost or ongoing, and all have left either phsyical or emotional scars. It gets to the point where you begin to wonder if the side effects are worth the benefits, so you try to titrate down and then the withdrawls draw you back in. Or you fight through them and then your back to the illness, the ups and downs, the panick attacks, until you're on the verge of suicide and the meds are the only extending hand to safety. A vicious cycle.

But you know what? There are good days. There are days when I look back and realize Fuck that guy. I graduated with honors, am pursing my dreams, and am going to Coachella. Again.

jackstraw94086
03-05-2007, 11:12 PM
http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/Drama/Drama/OneCheswickMcmurphyChief.jpg

amyzzz
03-06-2007, 07:58 AM
I want to thank you for starting this thread Yablo. Word for speaking your mind, however pained it may be. We're all strangers, but we have some things in common...



I can understand that mentality, but it can be the complete other way for some people too... There is such a stigma with mental illness that some issues just can't be brought up unless with close friends, and even then we are lucky if they can be supportive and understand. Sometimes it takes the unthreatening ear/screen of a stranger, someone you know won't tell your boss or your friends.

Freshmen year of High School, I remember the relief of understanding and friendship, love. Someone to hold my hand and take me to the morning blood tests, the after school psychiatrist visits, to reassure me that I was normal. But I remember even more the phone call later that year from his mother, telling me to stay away from her son and her family, how she knew about "people like me" - that is, people with bi-polar disorder. I remember her spitting the words out at me like I was some leper on a rampage. She, like so many other people, had some preconceived notion of manic-depression as some liscence to kill, some untreatable, unreliable devil of a disease that would sneak up on her family in the night and destroy them. And in many ways it is some unreliable devil, but only in the torment it causes in the minds of its victims.

Since then, I don't really talk about my problems. I've gone through countless treatments over the past 8 years. Paxil, Wellbutrin, Neurontin, Lithium, Lexapro, Topamax, Xanax, various combinations thereof; all are the names of battles either lost or ongoing, and all have left either phsyical or emotional scars. It gets to the point where you begin to wonder if the side effects are worth the benefits, so you try to titrate down and then the withdrawls draw you back in. Or you fight through them and then your back to the illness, the ups and downs, the panick attacks, until you're on the verge of suicide and the meds are the only extending hand to safety. A vicious cycle.

But you know what? There are good days. There are days when I look back and realize Fuck that guy. I graduated with honors, am pursing my dreams, and am going to Coachella. Again.
Good for you, Encaitare. I went through a lot of shit in high school like that. It seems like once I got a secure job and a family, I haven't had as many emotional problems. I'm not sure why that is. Bipolar disorder is definitely a genetic thing: I know my mom has it, and she's pretty sure her mom had it. I just hope I don't have it as bad as my mom does when I get to be her age because she has CRAZY mood swings. One benefit for my mom though is it makes her a great telemarketer salesperson, but then she'll go impulse buying and spend way too much money. I haven't had long-term debilitating depression in a long, long time, and I hope to God I don't have it again.

Yablonowitz
03-06-2007, 08:11 AM
Manic depression is a highly genetic condition and is most definitely a chemical imbalance that requires treatment. It's in our family - my aunt had it. Luckily, I don't. It's also likely that if you haven't started showing symptoms of it by your 30's, you likely won't get it.

jackstraw94086
03-06-2007, 08:43 AM
http://www.alicia-logic.com/capsimages/sbr_047MoranisThomas.jpg

TomAz
03-06-2007, 08:53 AM
http://www.safecom.org.au/images/hostage-note.jpg

Yablonowitz
03-06-2007, 08:58 AM
http://www.alicia-logic.com/capsimages/sbr_047MoranisThomas.jpg

Steamroller!

Encaitare
03-06-2007, 10:12 AM
amyzzz- yeah, high school is a bitch anyways, it seems like everyone is bipolar with their damn drama and hormones. Throw in a mood disorder and you can get the worst years of your life. I know I got it from my estranged father's side : schizophrenia, dementia, bipolar, you name it, it's rampant on that side. Unfortunatly, my mother has always been in denial of my condition, insists I was just a normal moody teen who grew up to be an emotional woman, despite the continual diagnosis from the 10+ psychiatric professionals I've seen over the years. It's funny, because she's an RN that works in a state run Mental Institute for the Criminally Insane. I guess she's just afraid.

Don't worry about turning out like your mom though, I bet you'll be better able to regulate yourself just by the fact that you're worrying about it already, and you've seen how it has effected a loved one.

amyzzz
03-06-2007, 10:34 AM
amyzzz- yeah, high school is a bitch anyways, it seems like everyone is bipolar with their damn drama and hormones. Throw in a mood disorder and you can get the worst years of your life. I know I got it from my estranged father's side : schizophrenia, dementia, bipolar, you name it, it's rampant on that side. Unfortunatly, my mother has always been in denial of my condition, insists I was just a normal moody teen who grew up to be an emotional woman, despite the continual diagnosis from the 10+ psychiatric professionals I've seen over the years. It's funny, because she's an RN that works in a state run Mental Institute for the Criminally Insane. I guess she's just afraid.

Don't worry about turning out like your mom though, I bet you'll be better able to regulate yourself just by the fact that you're worrying about it already, and you've seen how it has effected a loved one.
My mom didn't know she had it until I got diagnosed at age 16. Then she was like "THAT'S what's wrong with me!" It was kind of a relief to her to know there was a name for it.

bassmintpdx
05-02-2007, 01:01 AM
I'm not aware of any side effects. It works well for me, I just feel generally more relaxed and less angry. Of course, it does the exact same thing Paxil does, increase serotonin and therefore has the same negative effects which caused me to subject myself to the electrical brain shocks of Paxil withdrawal - namely, being a fucking zombie. I try to keep the dose low and stagger it, it seems more effective during initial use than as a prolonged supplement. So I go on and off it. I'm pretty sure extended periods of MDMA use caused a lot of my problems, so 5HTP is perfect.

Whoa I didn't know you use that. I have 5HTP and St. John's Wort also. Good analysis of it.

bassmintpdx
05-02-2007, 01:28 AM
It's been said that depressed people usually have depressing lives. I think that's fairly true. If you have a really full life and a lot to look forward to, then what do you have to be depressed about?

That said though I think family issues as well as genetics have their role. I've read that a person's mother can have a lot to do with it. I've also read though that a genetic tendency is just that though, a tendency. So you just have to work a little harder to keep yourself up basically and not fall into that tendency.

PARTY
05-02-2007, 02:44 AM
Hi, I went to Coachella this year and it was really fun MY Name Is James Ibach
and I Have the Following Itiems missing from:
1. Blue Bag
2.shoulder Strap Gym Bag [Everest]
3.Bathing Ape Hoody
4.Girl Pants
5.american Apperal V neck Shirt
6.Bdg Pants
7.2 waters [ side zipper ]
8.2 granola bars
9.A key And a Lock
10.A Phone Charger
11.a Verizon Phone With Leather Cover
12. A Andy Wharhol Wallet
13.Contants In The Wallet:
A. DisneyLand Passport
B.Kaiser Card
C.BOA Credit Card
D.Social Security Card
E.California Licence
F.24 Hour Fitness Sport Membership

P.S.
EMAIL ME @ Lesgeorgesleningrad@msn.com
Or Call (909) 887-8290

6109 Lori Lane
San Bernardino, Ca
92407

Vericuester
05-02-2007, 05:17 AM
And 5HTP is genuinely effective. St. John's Wort never made me feel any different - I've never taken prescription drugs, so I can't comment on most of this, but I noticed a really big change in my personality after I quit smoking pot a lot. I was happier and more at ease. That's kind of "duh" - but for a long time I convinced myself it was the only thing that could make me happy.

I was just going to post on St. John's Wort! Wikipedia says it's only effective for people with mild to moderately severe depression. It doesn't do shit for me, but that's just me. It might work for other people. Someone talked about self-medication...I don't think that's the best thing. lol, things like pot can just agitate other mental disorders, like if one has schizophrenia. If you start self-medicating in high school, like me, you can become an addict too, which sucks.

Anyway, great discussion, people. It's great people are talking about this.

Yablonowitz
05-02-2007, 08:40 AM
Hi, I went to Coachella this year and it was really fun MY Name Is James Ibach
and I Have the Following Itiems missing from:
1. Blue Bag
2.shoulder Strap Gym Bag [Everest]
3.Bathing Ape Hoody
4.Girl Pants
5.american Apperal V neck Shirt
6.Bdg Pants
7.2 waters [ side zipper ]
8.2 granola bars
9.A key And a Lock
10.A Phone Charger
11.a Verizon Phone With Leather Cover
12. A Andy Wharhol Wallet
13.Contants In The Wallet:
A. DisneyLand Passport
B.Kaiser Card
C.BOA Credit Card
D.Social Security Card
E.California Licence
F.24 Hour Fitness Sport Membership

P.S.
EMAIL ME @ Lesgeorgesleningrad@msn.com
Or Call (909) 887-8290

6109 Lori Lane
San Bernardino, Ca
92407

What kind of anxiety are you experiencing related to this?

mob roulette
05-02-2007, 08:41 AM
he's posting it in every thread. monkey.

Yablonowitz
05-02-2007, 09:19 AM
he's posting it in every thread. monkey.

I didn't see you at the fest. Monkey.

HowToDisappear
05-02-2007, 09:23 AM
Yablo, I understand you are an honest-to-God internet celebrity.
Someone recognized you on the plane coming over to CA?

Yablonowitz
05-02-2007, 09:31 AM
Yablo, I understand you are an honest-to-God internet celebrity.
Someone recognized you on the plane coming over to CA?

Yeah! Invisible Robots! It was hilarious. He's good shit, very nice guy.

I wish I could have met the Atom Family!

HowToDisappear
05-02-2007, 09:35 AM
The Atom Family wishes they could've met you, too! You'll have to settle for just the parental half next year. The girls will be at school in MA for the next four years at Coachella time.

lindseyb
08-14-2007, 03:16 PM
So, I feel like I'm having a huge epiphany right now...it just dawned on me that my sister (age 30) might have ADD. I just spent the weekend with her and, as always, was puzzled by her bizarre personality and behavior. I just looked up the smpytoms...she's pretty much a poster child for it. And it seems she's had it for a long time, at least ten years. (She's also an alcoholic, I wonder if her drinking problem could be related to ADD??)

So...what should I do? I'd love to see her get some help, but how do I bring up the subject? "Hey sis, I think you have ADD, why don't you make a doctor's appointment?" She would be TOTALLY offended. I'm wondering if anyone has a similar experience wherein they noticed the signs of ADD in an adult family member or friend and confronted them about it, or suggested they get help, and how it turned out for them.

Oh, and I posted this on a health board already and no one has even viewed my question yet (that was 1/2 hr ago), so I figured I might get a quicker and more interesting response from you guys!

PotVsKtl
08-14-2007, 03:17 PM
She's on drugs. Leave her be, she'll die eventually.

RotationSlimWang
08-14-2007, 03:20 PM
How's that for quick and interesting, eh?

lindseyb
08-14-2007, 03:25 PM
I don't think she's on drugs anymore. Her fiance wouldn't allow it; he's got a pretty tight leash on her.

PotVsKtl
08-14-2007, 03:26 PM
Can you post a picture of her mouth?

lindseyb
08-14-2007, 03:28 PM
why?

PotVsKtl
08-14-2007, 03:28 PM
I'm a medical doctor.

full on idle
08-14-2007, 03:33 PM
he KNOWS

psychic friend
08-14-2007, 03:34 PM
She's on drugs. Leave her be, she'll die eventually.


haha, that pretty much sums it up.

lindseyb
08-14-2007, 03:40 PM
alright, i give up.

full on idle
08-14-2007, 03:49 PM
I want to give you advice but I keep getting distracted.

J~$$$
08-14-2007, 03:51 PM
huh?

mob roulette
08-14-2007, 03:53 PM
gaypalmsprings says DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL.

And it doesn't sound like ADD to me. Maybe borderline personality disorder. Or maybe she's a schizophrenic and one of her personalities is a drunk. This is America. Anything's possible.

PassiveTheory
08-14-2007, 06:07 PM
I've been feeling extremely bipolar since June, when my girlfriend dumped me. It's not a crippling depression, because I know I can still have a good time, but it all came at a time where I was feeling anxious and worried (I had just quit my job, and my financial status in regards to college was up in the air) and even though I've gotten my collegiate future straightened out, every night I just feel terribly lonely and I just can't shake the depression off. I feel like I have to distract myself constantly otherwise all the memories will flow back on into my mind, and at night there's little to distract me...

I don't think I need medication, and I've already tried going out on dates since June, but I'm definitely feeling like I'm going to have some future commitment issues, and I've just felt vicious half the time... X.x

RotationSlimWang
08-14-2007, 06:09 PM
Passive, drop 100 and lose the hair. You'll feel better, and maybe get some pussy while you're at it.

Yablonowitz
08-14-2007, 06:50 PM
Way to go Randy.

Passive I'd avoid suggestions that come from thelastgreatselfdestructer- but, what you described doesn't sound like bi-polar. It sounds more like the "blues." If you had a mental disorder of some form (and bi-polar is certainly a diagnosable medical mental disorder), it wouldn't just be sadness and stuff - you'd have to have physical symptoms as well - like loss of appetite, trouble sleeping or sleeping too much, lethargy, and persistent and noticeable lack of enjoyment in things that used to give you enjoyment. And if you were bi-polar, your down in the dumps would be combined with insane highs where you don't sleep, your mind is racing, and you become incredibly and stupidly impulsive.

Lindsey - personally...and I don't know shit, seriously... I'd try to get the conversation going to a point where she admits and recognizes behavior that isn't healthy for her and then you sort of mildly suggest it...or ask questions along the symptom list. And if she says "yes" to most of them, you could point her to something that describes it in very clinical and passionless language.

But I hate giving advice because I would never be able to carry out what I suggest myself.

fatbastard
08-14-2007, 07:46 PM
I just wanted to mention that forgetfulness is a sign of depression. What characteristics does she have that gives you this impression?

I had a self-diagnosed case of ADD at work. I could never remember what people were asking me to do. I tried 30 post its on my desk at a time, then I had a Franklin planner that took 2 hours of my day just keeping it updated. I finally found that Microsoft Outlook does the thinking for me. I say this because you may want to look at her issue the same way. Try to unravel what's going on. Take a step back and see when she was OK then see what changes have been going on in her life that may have attributed to her current state.

Tough one Passive. Only time will tell if it was your ex that initiated an issue you didn't know you had or you may simply be bummed at the loss of that relationship.

Somewhat Damaged
08-14-2007, 10:16 PM
MDMA is tricky. A fulfilling, well directed experience can set you down the road to recovering from depression or anxiety. For me it did just that, once I finally experienced a feeling of total control, and being completely at peace with myself, I set myself on a quest to feel those feelings again without the use of MDMA.

I say its tricky because although I believe it to set me down the right path, it might have broken my legs, so I couldn't travel down that path until they were healed.

I'm glad to see somebody else post this. When I was 19, I had a panic attack at the mall while Christmas shopping. I thought I was having a heart attack and felt cold but was sweating bullets at the same time. I found it almost impossible to go anywhere that had large groups of people -- I would go to the movies late at night in the middle of the week, when there wouldn't be so many people in the audience. I was depressed and not going to school and I had to quit a couple of well paying jobs because my anxiety would get so bad that I'd be on the verge of another panic attack when dealing with customers. And so the fact that I've gone to Coachella these past 6 years and have spent much of the last two years by myself is a stunning turn around, one that I attribute a fair amount of credit to my Ecstasy use.
I started taking it in 2001. I had gotten better about going to the movies -- if I went with my dad or a friend, I could go on opening weekend -- and I'd managed to return to school. But I was still really withdrawn in social situations. I turned 21 that year so I was able to go to bars and drinking also helped me to not be anxious in public places, but I still kept mostly to myself. When I started taking Ecstasy, though, it made me a lot more accepting of myself and I was able to handle being at a rave or a bar even if I was alone for a few minutes. It got to be too good a feeling and I started doing it way too much, as is probably the case with a lot of people who have good E experiences, but I stopped taking it regularly after 2002.
I still get little rumblings of panic attacks. At my last job, there would be times that I'd be waiting on customers and all of a sudden I'd break out in a cold sweat and my legs would quiver and I'd get light-headed. After having it happen for so many years, I learned to cope with it and keep my composure and finish with my customer, then afterward I'd go to the restroom and disrobe and splash cold water on my face and torso.
I took Paxil back in '98 and HATED it. For a long time, the reason I gave was that it made me "docile." My parents were pretty Puritanical when I was growing up so admitting that Paxil made me unable to orgasm was something I had trouble doing. I took myself off it after a few weeks; I know you're supposed to give it time to take effect but the side effects were making me feel worse than the symptoms that prompted the doctor to prescribe it to me. Over the years I took so many different meds - Risperdal, Celexa, Lexapro, Depakote, etc. - that I've forgotten most of them. In June 2005, I decided to take myself off this medication that was sort of like lithium but wasn't lithium -- I hadn't been writing recently and feeling creatively stunted was worse than anything. Dealing with the roller coaster emotions was preferable to barely feeling anything at all. I've been completely off meds for over 2 years now and I feel like I've made a lot of progress in that time and that I've overcome the sort of madness that landed me in the hospital for 58 days in '99. (There were a few other trips - a 2-day stay in '98, a weeklong vacation that stretched from a couple days after Christmas '02 to a few days after New Year's '03 (spent that New Year's watching The Waterboy and being so depressed I wondered if it'd be possible to break through one of the 4th-story windows and leap to my death), and finally a couple days the week after Coachella '03 - but I haven't gone back in 4 years.) The funny thing, so to speak, about my optimism with my mental stability is that it's all relative to my present state of mind. I've lost so many friends and relationships over the years -- I keep friends for about 3 years max -- and while some of the outbursts and arguments that led to those dissolutions could be somewhat attributed to nights spent drinking excessive amounts of liquor, those relationships were already on the ropes because I'm just really intense and it's difficult to deal with that for extended periods of time. Even my friends who also have a mood disorder (like depression) or are obsessive-compulsive like me can only put up with my mood swings for so long. The one thing I'm finding to be promising is that many of those friends have been reappearing in my life, like they didn't find me to be an absolutely abominable person, just not always the most attractive to be in the orbit of. And so now I don't necessarily go out of my way to demonstrate that I'm not the walking catastrophe I used to be, but I've made a concerted effort over the course of the past year to not lead my conversations with rants about all the things that bother me and instead try to talk about more positive happenings. Removing myself from situations or people that were constantly negative has also led to an upswing in my overall satisfaction with my life, and let's face it, when you get to be 27 and have a better perspective on life, you're not as easily vanquished by the minor irritations that accompany working at a job you're just staying at to pay the bills and you realize how much better you have things than people in other parts of the world. As much as I've hated being told that in the past -- someone ALWAYS has it worst, but it doesn't mean your problems aren't legitimately bad -- it's helpful to keep in mind in order to avoid spiraling down into depressions that used to be oh so easy to fall into.

full on idle
08-14-2007, 10:31 PM
you should smoke some weed

Yablonowitz
08-14-2007, 10:47 PM
Somewhat Damaged - Have you tried doing any cognitive behavioral therapy with a psychologist? I'm currently doing that and, so far, I feel like I've made some major mental changes. I shouldn't go out of my way and call it a success yet, but there is some benefit to it.

Also - I'm going to butcher this line, but a friend of mine told me something that made a lot of sense recently: you can't think your way to live a better life, you have to live a better life to think better. Sounds cliché, I realize. But I'm trying to incorporate it - living differently, developing new habits and trying to stop old ones that can aggravate things. It's hard fucking work, as you well know. But trying to give yourself more objective thoughts during a moment of panic (knowing they are NOT physically harmful in the least and that they ALWAYS go away and you ALWAYS feel better) AND trying to live life in a way that feels more healthy are currently working for me. We shall see. Nothing lasts, though.

RotationSlimWang
08-14-2007, 11:56 PM
Greg--what did I say that was at all self-destructive? If anything, I was giving the boy serious, constructive advice. For starters, being a tremendous flabalance will make you more prone to depression, as well as repulsive. The only parts left not repulsive are those covered by hair, which he has elected to increase his disgusting nature with by having a stupid fucking haircut. I'm trying to help the boy, Yabs.

On a sidenote, I just came back from The Simpsons Movie, which might account for my own increased level of depression and hatred. They killed my baby, Greg, and diced it up and served it on a big screen.

bballarl
08-15-2007, 12:38 AM
I like Greg.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 12:44 AM
I like Greg, too. LIKE like Greg. I wanna have Greg's puppies, THAT'S how much I like the motherfucker.

PassiveTheory
08-15-2007, 12:53 AM
I've been hitting the gym every day since I got off school (minus a few days for job-hunting and Comic-Con) and have changed my diet completely, so there's that.

Also, fatbastard, the problem with there having been an issue is that, basically, she told me she wasn't in love with me anymore, that her feelings had evaporated 3 days before she told me, and that I hadn't done anything wrong (nor could there be anything I could do to have changed it) at all to end what he had for 2 years... This is a girl that, for all intents and purposes, has never lied to me once since I've known her, and has never shown any signs of being shady whatsoever...

You're supposed to learn from the relationships you have in life, but what the fuck do you learn from one that ended despite you having done no wrong?

thefunkylama
08-15-2007, 01:06 AM
Chalk it up to bad luck. Young love comes and goes, and that's what makes it so precious. You'll buck up eventually, place faith in that, but for now, don't go thinking you're the first person to ever have your heart broken. Be thankful you didn't do anything wrong, because then you'd have regret piled on top of whatever else your poor heart rends itself to pieces over. Congratulations, you've experienced your first real break-up. You're a man, now.

bballarl
08-15-2007, 01:07 AM
Sometimes shit happens. Girls are confusing. You kind of just have to accept it for what it is and move on. I know I sound moronic saying that, but seriously. It happened and you can't change it. It wasn't you. It just wasn't meant to happen. That doesn't make it easier, but once you accept that you can find some comfort in it and learn from the experience.

If all else fails, you can hit the bottle.

PassiveTheory
08-15-2007, 01:09 AM
It's not the melodrama that's been bothering me, it's more the sense that I don't know what to do to improve my next relationship and I already feel like I'm going to have trust issues, given the fact that this person up and left all two-years worth of feelings for me in a matter of days for no reason at all.

thefunkylama
08-15-2007, 01:15 AM
Stop thinking about the next girl. There is nothing more annoying than a guy who tells you he's got himself all figured out and is now Mr. Perfect because of what he learned. No man is perfect. Don't worry about being perfect. Perfect is frightening, anyway. If you get into another relationship and find out you have trust issues, deal with them then. In the meantime, practice enjoying daily life again.

summerkid
08-15-2007, 01:19 AM
Well my cousin just got diagnosed with schizophrenia. I've been saying he was schizophrenic for the past two years, but nobody in my family would listen to me. Good thing they finally got him on meds though.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 01:29 AM
Hahaha, oh Summerkid, with schizophrenics the fun only really STARTS when they start getting medicated. Prepare for exciting times.

Passive, stop being such a pussy, and I mean that in the most sincere of ways. It is the only valid advice to give you. You bet on love, you lost--this is going to be a repeating factor in your life, so get used to it. The nice thing about life is that it's never comprised of just one person. We get a shitload of them for us to fuck, fuck over, and be fucked over by, so just suck it up, learn whatever lessons you can (hitting the gym is a good one--cutting that fucking hair would be another), and move on. Also, and I know this is something none of us like to admit, but you're going to get nothing but trouble out of treating women nice. They don't want it, and at the end of the day neither do we. So drop 100, cut the hair, and find out that you were probably out of that chick's league once you got your shit together.

I wag The Finger Of Wisdom at you. Heed it's direction.

bballarl
08-15-2007, 01:46 AM
I think the best advice would be to not listen to Randy and listen to Alma instead.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 01:50 AM
Step No. 1--Never, ever listen to women. ESPECIALLY if the subject matter is women.

Stefinitely Maybe
08-15-2007, 02:16 AM
I forgot about this thread.

I feel like a lot of stuff in my life has really fallen into place for me over the past year / few months. As a result I stopped taking all of my medication a few months ago, and I feel f#cking great. I am a happy bastard. Proof that things do change and there is a light at the end of the tunnel etc etc.

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 09:55 AM
Also, and I know this is something none of us like to admit, but you're going to get nothing but trouble out of treating women nice. They don't want it, and at the end of the day neither do we. So drop 100, cut the hair, and find out that you were probably out of that chick's league once you got your shit together.

I wag The Finger Of Wisdom at you. Heed it's direction.

Passive - he's 23 and clearly has personality issues that would make any relationship difficult for a woman (or a man, if he went that way). So, don't even look at that finger.

Dude - I've been married for 10 years. Happily married. We argue daily and sometimes piss the other off to the point where we just want to get away for ahwile. But those usually last no longer than a couple hours at the worst. It's been 10 good fucking years and the beginning of probably 40 more. 12 years ago, I was fairly positive I would be living my life alone...and was sure I was destined to either live with my mom or work some stupid minimum wage job and be a nervous recluse who could never have a relationship. Shit changes...you don't even have the faintest idea how or when, but they will.

I don't have any advice for you exactly...just realize that what your going through now will pass. If it persists and starts to feel crippling, go talk to someone you trust and who knows you. And, because everyone is so fucking different, your experience with this girl is in no way foreshadowing your experiences with other women.

Don't cut the hair, either. You think Tom Waits didn't get women?

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 09:59 AM
I forgot about this thread.

I feel like a lot of stuff in my life has really fallen into place for me over the past year / few months. As a result I stopped taking all of my medication a few months ago, and I feel f#cking great. I am a happy bastard. Proof that things do change and there is a light at the end of the tunnel etc etc.

Cool. Glad to hear it.

Since this thread started, I've gone through some intense stuff but have been feeling really even-keeled for the past five weeks or so. I hope it continues.

psychic friend
08-15-2007, 10:01 AM
UP down UP down

ding dong

sigh...............

lindseyb
08-15-2007, 10:04 AM
Lindsey - personally...and I don't know shit, seriously... I'd try to get the conversation going to a point where she admits and recognizes behavior that isn't healthy for her and then you sort of mildly suggest it...or ask questions along the symptom list. And if she says "yes" to most of them, you could point her to something that describes it in very clinical and passionless language.

But I hate giving advice because I would never be able to carry out what I suggest myself.

thanks yablo, that sounds like a good approach. but true, easier said than done.

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 10:10 AM
Stop thinking about the next girl. There is nothing more annoying than a guy who tells you he's got himself all figured out and is now Mr. Perfect because of what he learned. No man is perfect. Don't worry about being perfect. Perfect is frightening, anyway. If you get into another relationship and find out you have trust issues, deal with them then. In the meantime, practice enjoying daily life again.

woah....woah.

lindseyb
08-15-2007, 10:14 AM
I just wanted to mention that forgetfulness is a sign of depression. What characteristics does she have that gives you this impression?

I had a self-diagnosed case of ADD at work. I could never remember what people were asking me to do. I tried 30 post its on my desk at a time, then I had a Franklin planner that took 2 hours of my day just keeping it updated. I finally found that Microsoft Outlook does the thinking for me. I say this because you may want to look at her issue the same way. Try to unravel what's going on. Take a step back and see when she was OK then see what changes have been going on in her life that may have attributed to her current state.



she's beyond forgetful, she doesn't listen. however she was on medication for depression for a time. i think her problem goes beyond depression though. here are some of the symptoms she displays that are signs of ADD:

-not remembering being told something
-"zoning out" in conversations
-being late or forgetting to show up when expected
-speaking without thinking
-pressured rapid-fire speech, seemingly random, and aimless hopping from one topic to the next
-perceived as aloof and arrogant, or tiresomely talkative and boorish
-compulsive joking, often about personal life history and feelings
-easily frustrated or bored
-leaving a mess
-procrastination (difficulty starting tasks)
-incompletions (starting tasks, household projects, or book reading, but not completing them before new projects or new books are begun, leaving a never-ending to-do list),
-insecurity and self-esteem issues because of unmet high personal expectations
-irritability
-quick anger
-inadequate censorship of rude or insulting thoughts, and poor timing in interactions

i've been trying to unravel whats going on for a long time. its hard to remember a time when she was ok. she had eating disorders when she was in her teens and after she stopped that, she turned into an alcoholic. i don't think she dealt with her grief very well when our mom died; she drank instead. its hard to see your only sister make a mess of her life and abuse herself and turn into a monster of a person. but anyway i've been trying to figure it out for years, so maybe i'm just hoping that a diagnosis of some kind will explain everything!

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 10:16 AM
OMG I HAVE ADDDD!!!!! seriously I think I have ADD

TomAz
08-15-2007, 10:19 AM
she's beyond forgetful, she doesn't listen. however she was on medication for depression for a time. i think her problem goes beyond depression though. here are some of the symptoms she displays that are signs of ADD:

-not remembering being told something
-"zoning out" in conversations
-being late or forgetting to show up when expected
-speaking without thinking
-pressured rapid-fire speech, seemingly random, and aimless hopping from one topic to the next
-perceived as aloof and arrogant, or tiresomely talkative and boorish
-compulsive joking, often about personal life history and feelings
-easily frustrated or bored
-leaving a mess
-procrastination (difficulty starting tasks)
-incompletions (starting tasks, household projects, or book reading, but not completing them before new projects or new books are begun, leaving a never-ending to-do list),
-insecurity and self-esteem issues because of unmet high personal expectations
-irritability
-quick anger
-inadequate censorship of rude or insulting thoughts, and poor timing in interactions

i've been trying to unravel whats going on for a long time. its hard to remember a time when she was ok. she had eating disorders when she was in her teens and after she stopped that, she turned into an alcoholic. i don't think she dealt with her grief very well when our mom died; she drank instead. its hard to see your only sister make a mess of her life and abuse herself and turn into a monster of a person. but anyway i've been trying to figure it out for years, so maybe i'm just hoping that a diagnosis of some kind will explain everything!

maybe she's just stupid, graceless, and stressed out.

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 10:20 AM
What about helping her get organized. Not trying to interfere with anything she has going on. Once sticking to a routine life becomes organized and efficient. Focused routines. A lot of people see ADD as something that needs to be treated with medication and that is not always the case

lindseyb
08-15-2007, 10:26 AM
absolutely not. she's the type of person that takes takes takes from everyone and will use anyone for as much as she can get from them and not feel bad about it (AND openly admit to it!). so to volunteer to help her get organized would mean i would end up doing her shit for her. i think she needs to learn how to grow up and take care of herself, not have others do it for her.

jackstraw94086
08-15-2007, 10:28 AM
brain tumor.

fer realz, yo

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 10:31 AM
Then stop worrying about her. I understand you love her but all you can do now is point and laugh and be all "I told you so!" when she falls down.

Just tell her you honest opinion sometimes people need to know exactly how you feel. If she cannot respect you and what you see from an outside perspective then she does not deserve your respect and constant worry/love.

lindseyb
08-15-2007, 10:34 AM
totally. i'm sick of worrying about her. it stresses me out and she's beyond mine or anyone's control.

downingthief
08-15-2007, 10:35 AM
I forgot about this thread.

I feel like a lot of stuff in my life has really fallen into place for me over the past year / few months. As a result I stopped taking all of my medication a few months ago, and I feel f#cking great. I am a happy bastard. Proof that things do change and there is a light at the end of the tunnel etc etc.

That's fantastic, Stef. Glad to hear it!

jackstraw94086
08-15-2007, 10:35 AM
The best thing a person can do is hit rock bottom. Just ask Nietzsche.

downingthief
08-15-2007, 10:40 AM
Don't cut the hair, either. You think Tom Waits didn't get women?

Hell, yeah...women love the long locks. Well, at least when they are single. For some reason, when they get attached...they like the guy to cut it. At least, that was my experience. But hey, if it gets you the girl you want, its' worth it.

miscorrections
08-15-2007, 12:00 PM
so not true, i was a little disappointed when my last man clipped his shaggy hair.

amyzzz
08-15-2007, 01:20 PM
I was mad when my husband cut his hair last summer, but he was working outside (and inside) in horrendously hot conditions, so he pretty much had to cut it.

Also, I have days (like Monday) when I'm extremely depressed for no specific reason, but when I take 5-htp at night, the next day I'm much better. (I haven't taken Ecstasy in weeks, so e-depression had nothing to do with it)

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 02:02 PM
... have you guys SEEN his fucking head?

Srsly.

Srsly.

full on idle
08-15-2007, 02:09 PM
You're repulsive.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 02:14 PM
You should've seen me when I was fat and had a stupid fucking haircut.

I'm trying to help the boy, people.

bug on your lip
08-15-2007, 02:17 PM
You should've seen me when I was fat and had a stupid fucking haircut.

I'm trying to help the boy, people.


you dropped the fat & the haircut
now yer just fucking stupid

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 02:21 PM
I'll accept that if you wish, but funnily enough being stupid doesn't hurt you all that much in life. Looking stupid, however...

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 02:23 PM
Being stupid and looking stupid go hand in hand, so you are in good company Randy.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 02:40 PM
I refute both the general principle of your statement as well as how it's phrased: I'm in good company? What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? Did you really just respond to me drawing a distinction between the advantages of being stupid vs. looking stupid by basically saying, "Well, if you are stupid you probably look stupid?"

Tell me, J, when's the last time you had a haircut? =)

Love ya, bitches.

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 02:44 PM
Randy's on a bender.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 02:47 PM
Actually I've been frighteningly sober recently. Ran out of my Valium and Ambien on the 6th, the same day that I got a heap of bad news that has proven difficult to sift through. Got back into LA on the 8th, consumed an ounce of GHB a day until Sunday when that well ran dry too. I'm now waiting on a package of Oxycontin and Xanax to be delivered to me so that my soul and brain will shut the fuck up. In the meantime, the board will have to endure me, kthxbye.

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 03:06 PM
What would happen to you if someone kidnapped you and just threw you in a dark room and gave you water and bread for a couple of months?

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 03:14 PM
It's an interesting question. My honest opinion is that for the first month or so I would hurt myself a lot to compensate. After that, if my brain wasn't too fucked up from headbutting the walls and floor, I think I'd probably get straightened out a bit.

If it wasn't for being surrounded by actually fucking INSANE people I'd love to go to a mental hospital for a few weeks. Just chill the fuck out, don't talk to anybody I know, read, write, get dosed thoroughly. Although now that I think about it, the same could be accomplished just by going to a deserted island in Fiji. Yeah, let's do Fiji instead.

Benis23
08-15-2007, 03:42 PM
if anyone is taking prescribed medication for anxiety or depression, i would suggest getting off of it immediately.

Hannahrain
08-15-2007, 03:45 PM
What type of crystal healing regimen would you recommend instead?

summerkid
08-15-2007, 03:47 PM
What type of crystal healing regimen would you recommend instead?

alcohol...lots and lots of alcohol.

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 03:48 PM
if anyone is taking prescribed medication for anxiety or depression, i would suggest getting off of it immediately.

Yes, there are only literally millions of people across the US on them now and they're all raving psychotics.

fatbastard
08-15-2007, 03:51 PM
I've been hitting the gym every day since I got off school (minus a few days for job-hunting and Comic-Con) and have changed my diet completely, so there's that.

Also, fatbastard, the problem with there having been an issue is that, basically, she told me she wasn't in love with me anymore, that her feelings had evaporated 3 days before she told me, and that I hadn't done anything wrong (nor could there be anything I could do to have changed it) at all to end what he had for 2 years... This is a girl that, for all intents and purposes, has never lied to me once since I've known her, and has never shown any signs of being shady whatsoever...

You're supposed to learn from the relationships you have in life, but what the fuck do you learn from one that ended despite you having done no wrong?

It happens. I spent an hour last Friday talking with this guy. I was sharing the story of how someone had broken into our house a couple of years ago and took our wedding rings. He mentioned a similar story but he knew the person. This guy is a truck driver. He found out that his wife was cheating on him. He filed for divorce but his wife maintained primary custody of their 2 children. She then attempted to move 6 miles away. The judge told her that if she moved, she would need to give her husband primary custody of both children. She landed up moving away with the guy she was cheating with and he got primary custody of both children. I wouldn't call her drop dead gorgous but she was somewhat attractive. Someone then broke into his house, takes every picture in the house and a safe with a fair amount of money. He found out that it was his ex-wife and her new boyfriend that broke into the house. She also called American Airlines and had all of his miles transferred to her. He mentioned a couple of other things that I can't remember right now. He's now married with a new wife and both of his kids are with him. Can you imagine how this guy went to sleep the night he was robbed by his ex-wife and her new boyfriend? The same girl that he married, loved and conceived children with? You can never know with 100% accuracy how someone feels about you. If there was a lesson to be learned from this experience it's that you have to allow yourself to go deep in a relationship but you also have to be aware of potential outcomes as well. What if your girlfriend became pregnant? Were you ready to go down that road with her? What if she wanted to go to school in Brazil by herself? Would you have had the same feelings?

Again, sorry for your loss but don't waste your time wondering what went wrong or what you could have done. You were just being you. Anything else would have caused you to change yourself for the sake of someone else's happiness.

bballarl
08-15-2007, 03:56 PM
Someone make sure Randy gets his next drug shipment next-dayed.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Supposedly the fucker over-nighted it yesterday, but I have no package yet.

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

Benis23
08-15-2007, 06:47 PM
What type of crystal healing regimen would you recommend instead?

ok, here are some of my reasons for being against anti-depressants

studies have shown increased excercise is just as effective in treating depression as anti-depressents.

studies have also shown that there is absolutely no difference in the neurotransmitter levels (seratonin, norepinephrine, etc.) between people who are clinically depressed and those who are not. so, there is no kind of chemical imbalance with people who are depressed - the problem is that there is something going on in their lives that is making them unhappy. anti-depressents do not address this. there are many genetic liability genes, but those genes alone can't be the sole cause of depression - some environmental factors have to be involved.

if you really want to increase the amount of seratonin in your brain, i would say that a better way of doing so would be to eat healthier foods. healthier foods generally leads to more seratonin in your brain. turkey, for instance, has an amino acid called tryptophan in it that is converted to seratonin.

also, everyone knows about this already, but the unwanted side effects from anti-depressants can be very significant.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 06:53 PM
ok, here are some of my reasons for being against anti-depressants

studies have shown increased excercise is just as effective in treating depression as anti-depressents.

I'll stipulate that that's virtually true if not exactly true. Let me ask you something, slick--you ever tried to exercise in the midst of full-on depression? Better yet, ever tried to GET THE FUCK OUT OF BED in the midst of full-on depression? Try running up a treadmill sometime when all you can think about is slitting your own throat, I dare you.


studies have also shown that there is absolutely no difference in the neurotransmitter levels (seratonin, norepinephrine, etc.) between people who are clinically depressed and those who are not. so, there is no kind of chemical imbalance with people who are depressed - the problem is that there is something going on in their lives that is making them unhappy. anti-depressents do not address this. there are many genetic liability genes, but those genes alone can't be the sole cause of depression - some environmental factors have to be involved.


Please cite these supposed "studies," jerkoff. If such a study exists it rather destroys the entire foundation of modern thought on depression/bi-polar disorder and a host of other psychiatric ailments. I'm sure the world would love to be made aware of them.

Don't talk to me about depression until you've smiled around a gun barrel, please. ASSHOLE.

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 07:05 PM
Ahh, Randy. Once again, I agree with the gist of what you're saying but not quite the way you say it. That's how it goes though.

Bevis:
Your main problem is lumping together low-level and moderate depression with severe depression. And here's the thing about the brain. Nobody fucking understands how it works, but they do have demonstrable evidence that SSRI's DO help close to 80% of people diagnosed with severe depression. Like Randy said, when you can't get the fuck out of bed in the morning and you're absolutely convinced that death is imminent, you don't have time to start a new diet or go running around the park.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 07:13 PM
Yab, you give this asshole too much consideration. Why are you even bothering to respond to him seriously when he comes out with this half-assed claim that "studies have also shown that there is absolutely no difference in the neurotransmitter levels (seratonin, norepinephrine, etc.) between people who are clinically depressed and those who are not?" I mean, seriously? He/She/Asshole's talking out of its ass here.

You got studies? Fucking post them. Better hope they're from some reputable fucking sources while you're at it. How much do you understand about neurochemistry, Benis?

You know how I generally feel about SSRIs, Yabs, but to come in here and say that there's NO LINK between serotonin levels and depression... how can you possibly extend such a douchebag even the most trifling of politenesses?

You must have finally found the right meds, that's the only explanation. Get off them already. =)

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 07:21 PM
Yab, you give this asshole too much consideration. Why are you even bothering to respond to him seriously when he comes out with this half-assed claim that "studies have also shown that there is absolutely no difference in the neurotransmitter levels (seratonin, norepinephrine, etc.) between people who are clinically depressed and those who are not?" I mean, seriously? He/She/Asshole's talking out of its ass here.

You got studies? Fucking post them. Better hope they're from some reputable fucking sources while you're at it. How much do you understand about neurochemistry, Benis?

You know how I generally feel about SSRIs, Yabs, but to come in here and say that there's NO LINK between serotonin levels and depression... how can you possibly extend such a douchebag even the most trifling of politenesses?

You must have finally found the right meds, that's the only explanation. Get off them already. =)

I'm praying for that package delivery, man! Not saying the claim isn't ludicrous, but I've heard much more alarmist bullshit than that.

The key point for the SSRI's-are-evil crowd is that there are probably hundreds of trial lawyers watching and waiting for noticeable and damaging effects of paxil, prozac, lexapro, etc to start manifesting themselves. And when you're talking about a population pool in the millions of people who are taking it and you have yet to have one significant lawsuit winning MAJOR damage awards for these things for adults, there's a pretty damn good chance that the drugs - while maybe unpleasant and not necessarily the only way to get better - aren't causing the kinds of damage to people that paranoid hysterics claim.

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 07:25 PM
"I'm praying for that package delivery, man! Not saying the claim isn't ludicrous, but I've heard much more alarmist bullshit than that."

hahaha im looking at a stack of xanax and viccodin and wishing that I could fed-ex randy some love just to get him to a semi normal mind state.

luckyface
08-15-2007, 07:37 PM
Looks like we might have a Scientologist on the board!

mob roulette
08-15-2007, 07:45 PM
So wait. If I eat turkey, I'll be happy?

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 08:07 PM
J... why in the fuck can't you? I'll paypal you the overnight charges, plus a little something extra to buy yourself a cute blouse. =)

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 08:10 PM
And Yabs, discussing the positive vs. negative effects of SSRIs and other anti-depressants is one thing, but no such discussion can exist with a person who maintains that there is NO connection between serotonin levels and depression. That's just fucking ridiculous.

Whether or not such levels are responsible for depression and/or can be corrected through medication is an entirely different story. But the correlary has already been established thousands of times over.

full on idle
08-15-2007, 08:10 PM
Looks like we might have a Scientologist on the board!

Luckyface beat me to it.

Somewhat Damaged
08-15-2007, 08:26 PM
she's beyond forgetful, she doesn't listen. however she was on medication for depression for a time. i think her problem goes beyond depression though. here are some of the symptoms she displays that are signs of ADD:

-not remembering being told something
-"zoning out" in conversations
-being late or forgetting to show up when expected
-speaking without thinking
-pressured rapid-fire speech, seemingly random, and aimless hopping from one topic to the next
-perceived as aloof and arrogant, or tiresomely talkative and boorish
-compulsive joking, often about personal life history and feelings
-easily frustrated or bored
-leaving a mess
-procrastination (difficulty starting tasks)
-incompletions (starting tasks, household projects, or book reading, but not completing them before new projects or new books are begun, leaving a never-ending to-do list),
-insecurity and self-esteem issues because of unmet high personal expectations
-irritability
-quick anger
-inadequate censorship of rude or insulting thoughts, and poor timing in interactions

I'm surprised nobody else picked up on this but this strikes me as being more indicative of bipolar disorder than ADD. How long has this been going on? 'Cause a lot of those things sound symptomatic of a manic episode, and since you've already said she's taken medication for depression, it's not much of a stretch. I was diagnosed as just having unipolar depression for years before I finally had a full-blown manic episode.

summerkid
08-15-2007, 08:29 PM
So wait. If I eat turkey, I'll be happy?

turkey makes me sleepy...and if i sleep too much i get depressed.

Somewhat Damaged
08-15-2007, 08:39 PM
Somewhat Damaged - Have you tried doing any cognitive behavioral therapy with a psychologist? I'm currently doing that and, so far, I feel like I've made some major mental changes. I shouldn't go out of my way and call it a success yet, but there is some benefit to it.

Also - I'm going to butcher this line, but a friend of mine told me something that made a lot of sense recently: you can't think your way to live a better life, you have to live a better life to think better. Sounds cliché, I realize. But I'm trying to incorporate it - living differently, developing new habits and trying to stop old ones that can aggravate things. It's hard fucking work, as you well know. But trying to give yourself more objective thoughts during a moment of panic (knowing they are NOT physically harmful in the least and that they ALWAYS go away and you ALWAYS feel better) AND trying to live life in a way that feels more healthy are currently working for me. We shall see. Nothing lasts, though.

What does CBT entail exactly? I've been seeing a psychologist every week for the most part since 1999. He's tried giving me some breathing and thinking exercises to help me fall asleep easier (used to be a bit of an insomniac) or to refrain from getting violent when the dial turns that way. I've taken some of the advice, but only a small percentage of what he's offered 'cause...well, I dunno. Maybe some of it's seeped in subconsciously and I don't think to attribute my progress to him because he's real subtle about it. Like, I do the bulk of the talking in our sessions -- he doesn't really direct what subjects are discussed. Last week he had wanted to analyze a dream I'd mentioned in passing at the end of the previous week's session but didn't bring it up till the final minutes and I wasn't interested in exploring the topic at the time.
And I completely agree with your second part. The big change for me came when I started working on my film in earnest. I accrued more than $10,000 in credit card debt making a 30-minute film that has minimal commercial prospects but I was finally doing what I wanted and that was probably the most important aspect to my demeanor changing. I decided to stop doing drugs (that money could go towards my movie or attending shows) and reduced my drinking from every night to just on the weekends, and I started hitting the gym more regularly. At my last job, I wanted to kill some of my coworkers, they were such back-biting cunts, so I quit. Now I'm not making quite so much money (pay's essentially the same but I don't get overtime) but I don't have to contend with that chaos on a daily basis, and as such, it's much easier to remain on an even keel even if things don't always go right. Definitely lots of work, but really rewarding when the people around you can't help but mention how much progress you've made and how content you seem with things for the first time in your life.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 09:00 PM
Oh my god oh my god... so no package... which means either some bastard out there fucked up and/or lied to me or DHL just sucks balls.

Dear Lord Almighty, let my skin be as stone...

Mr.Nipples_
08-15-2007, 09:02 PM
Randy, lets have sex

J~$$$
08-15-2007, 09:03 PM
GU2w72KAkQQ&mode

luckyface
08-15-2007, 09:12 PM
http://socialitelife.com/images/tc021306.jpg

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 09:24 PM
FUCK THIS SHIT.

summerkid
08-15-2007, 09:28 PM
pie?

Yablonowitz
08-15-2007, 10:18 PM
What does CBT entail exactly? I've been seeing a psychologist every week for the most part since 1999. He's tried giving me some breathing and thinking exercises to help me fall asleep easier (used to be a bit of an insomniac) or to refrain from getting violent when the dial turns that way. I've taken some of the advice, but only a small percentage of what he's offered 'cause...well, I dunno. Maybe some of it's seeped in subconsciously and I don't think to attribute my progress to him because he's real subtle about it. Like, I do the bulk of the talking in our sessions -- he doesn't really direct what subjects are discussed. Last week he had wanted to analyze a dream I'd mentioned in passing at the end of the previous week's session but didn't bring it up till the final minutes and I wasn't interested in exploring the topic at the time.
And I completely agree with your second part. The big change for me came when I started working on my film in earnest. I accrued more than $10,000 in credit card debt making a 30-minute film that has minimal commercial prospects but I was finally doing what I wanted and that was probably the most important aspect to my demeanor changing. I decided to stop doing drugs (that money could go towards my movie or attending shows) and reduced my drinking from every night to just on the weekends, and I started hitting the gym more regularly. At my last job, I wanted to kill some of my coworkers, they were such back-biting cunts, so I quit. Now I'm not making quite so much money (pay's essentially the same but I don't get overtime) but I don't have to contend with that chaos on a daily basis, and as such, it's much easier to remain on an even keel even if things don't always go right. Definitely lots of work, but really rewarding when the people around you can't help but mention how much progress you've made and how content you seem with things for the first time in your life.

CBT, as I know it, works primarily on anxiety related issues - panic attacks and generalized anxiety. From what I can glean, it's less effective if depression is the primary issue. What would you say your primary issue is?

Somewhat Damaged
08-15-2007, 11:24 PM
I'm bipolar and obsessive-compulsive. Lately, the bipolar aspect hasn't been too bad because I haven't been agitated or depressed. I'll have bad days obviously but nothing as bad as what I was experiencing throughout May. The OCD is more pervasive, though it manifests itself in me differently than most people associate with OCD. I'm tidy enough but I'm not a clean freak germaphobe. I like organizing things (get supremely annoyed with CDs or DVDs being shelved out of alphabetical order, or files at work especially) but it's the obsessive thoughts that really do me in. I get fixated on things that are really far from the realm of potentially happening -- I worry about being dismembered or having portions of my body (mainly my arms or legs) chopped off and that used to deter me from going to drive-thru ATMs (I thought some idiot with an axe was going to pop out of nowhere and lop off my arm when I was typing in my PIN). I dunno, I can't exactly identify all of the ways it resonates in my life right at this moment, but it's just something that people who know me for the briefest period of time come to associate me with. And I know obsessive-compulsive disorder is in the family of anxiety disorders so perhaps CBT is something I should talk to my psychologist about.

RotationSlimWang
08-15-2007, 11:26 PM
Yab, who is that on your avatar? That can't be you, can it?

Somewhat--are you chick or dude? As far as your movie-related issues go, I recommend asking for my opinion before dumping your life into another script and also finding better material to be inspired by that Eternal Sunshine. Not that it's not a great movie, but you're never going to get anything particularly marketable and/or accessible to the public drawing from films based around how "dreamlike" life can be. Dreams are for little kids--adults have better stories to tell.

With regards to CBT--um, don't really know. Heard of it, haven't tried it. Somewhat, I'd recomend being wary of psychologists, though. Their profession only continues if their customers continue to have problems. It's true of psychiatrists as well to some degree, but at least with psychiatristry they'll give you an idea of what might cure you chemically, should you ever even start to feel cured in the first place. Psychologists, well, not so much.

And as far as scientology goes--well, there's a reason that scientology is considered to be very effective BESIDES the fact that they basically blackmail members into staying members. Scientology is very effective brain-training even if one disregards it's theological aspects.

The principles of going over all the parts of your past that register as painful or traumatic over and over again until they're practically meaningless to recall is extremely valid. I recommend it to pretty much everyone. My own personal technique was to do so in the process of writing my past as a story, but that's not always possible, so do what you can with what you have.

And if someone fails to produce the xanax and painkillers they were supposed to mail you, go out and buy the last ounce of GHB from the ****** you get all your drugs from. Sure it'll be overpriced and taste strange and you'll half wonder if maybe it was just semen-flavored water, but whatever.

Somewhat Damaged
08-15-2007, 11:47 PM
Somewhat--are you chick or dude? As far as your movie-related issues go, I recommend asking for my opinion before dumping your life into another script and also finding better material to be inspired by that Eternal Sunshine. Not that it's not a great movie, but you're never going to get anything particularly marketable and/or accessible to the public drawing from films based around how "dreamlike" life can be. Dreams are for little kids--adults have better stories to tell.

With regards to CBT--um, don't really know. Heard of it, haven't tried it. Somewhat, I'd recomend being wary of psychologists, though. Their profession only continues if their customers continue to have problems. It's true of psychiatrists as well to some degree, but at least with psychiatristry they'll give you an idea of what might cure you chemically, should you ever even start to feel cured in the first place. Psychologists, well, not so much.

I'm a dude and I'm perfectly content with the films that influence me, but thanks for the offer. As much as I admire Eternal Sunshine, Richard Linklater's Before Sunrise/Sunset are closer to the style of stories I'm interested in making, meaning I don't really do films based on how "dreamlike" life can be. As for my psychologist, I've never actually paid for a single session -- I was court-ordered so the state has been picking up the tab all these years, something they've tried wriggling out of on more than a couple ocassions. I have gotten to a point recently where I don't look forward to making my appointments because I don't really feel they're necessary all the time. But again, suggestion duly noted.

mob roulette
08-15-2007, 11:52 PM
Rule #1: Don't take medical advice from Randy.

Rule #2: Come driving with me after the Okkervil River show. A dark stretch of highway. No headlights on. Cigarettes. We can cure you of this pretty easy, I feel.

EDIT: Wait a second, did you say "court-ordered"? That might require another treatment entirely. What did you do?

Yablonowitz
08-16-2007, 08:12 AM
I'm bipolar and obsessive-compulsive. Lately, the bipolar aspect hasn't been too bad because I haven't been agitated or depressed. I'll have bad days obviously but nothing as bad as what I was experiencing throughout May. The OCD is more pervasive, though it manifests itself in me differently than most people associate with OCD. I'm tidy enough but I'm not a clean freak germaphobe. I like organizing things (get supremely annoyed with CDs or DVDs being shelved out of alphabetical order, or files at work especially) but it's the obsessive thoughts that really do me in. I get fixated on things that are really far from the realm of potentially happening -- I worry about being dismembered or having portions of my body (mainly my arms or legs) chopped off and that used to deter me from going to drive-thru ATMs (I thought some idiot with an axe was going to pop out of nowhere and lop off my arm when I was typing in my PIN). I dunno, I can't exactly identify all of the ways it resonates in my life right at this moment, but it's just something that people who know me for the briefest period of time come to associate me with. And I know obsessive-compulsive disorder is in the family of anxiety disorders so perhaps CBT is something I should talk to my psychologist about.

Yeah, I think it might be a great idea to try CBT. I'm not going to say that it's the answer for you. But it definitely focuses on issues related to OCD. And, again, don't listen to Randy. There are psychologists who are genuinely concerned about helping people. There are ones who suck, too. But those who practice CBT are goal-oriented and are actually structured and working toward helping you change the way you think. Their whole approach is geared on getting you out of therapy, so it's not like they want you to be unhealthy so you can keep coming back.

Here are some general outlines of it:

CBT is based on an educational model.
CBT is based on the scientifically supported assumption that most emotional and behavioral reactions are learned. Therefore, the goal of therapy is to help clients unlearn their unwanted reactions and to learn a new way of reacting.

Therefore, CBT has nothing to do with "just talking". People can "just talk"
with anyone.

The educational emphasis of CBT has an additional benefit -- it leads to
long term results. When people understand how and why they are doing well, they know what to do to continue doing well.

CBT theory and techniques rely on the Inductive Method.
A central aspect of Rational thinking is that it is based on fact. Often, we
upset ourselves about things when, in fact, the situation isn't like we think it is. If we knew that, we would not waste our time upsetting ourselves.
Therefore, the inductive method encourages us to look at our thoughts as
being hypotheses or guesses that can be questioned and tested. If we find
that our hypotheses are incorrect (because we have new information), then we can change our thinking to be in line with how the situation really is.

Homework is a central feature of CBT.
If when you attempted to learn your multiplication tables you spent only one hour per week studying them, you might still be wondering what 5 X 5
equals. You very likely spent a great deal of time at home studying your multiplication tables, maybe with flashcards. The same is the case with psychotherapy. Goal achievement (if obtained) could take a very long time if all a person were only to think about the techniques and topics taught was for one hour per week. That's why CBT therapists assign reading assignments and encourage their clients to practice the techniques learned.

I have a strong element of obsessiveness when I start getting anxious - I begin to see myself as mentally unstable and fear that I'll do something violent or self-destructive and I just dwell on that until I fall deep and hard into a depression. I also get panic attacks which cause psychological pain because of the very real feeling of imminent catastrophe/death it instills. With the therapist I'm seeing now, I'm practicing looking at my initial thoughts and reactions to panic and obsessiveness more rationally. Stop believing that the thoughts I have are objective truth. Also, for my panic, I've been practicing re-creating some of the physical symptoms of panic in a controlled way. THe idea is to "desensitive" myself to the physical symptoms and start to realize that they aren't inherently harmful. It's kind of like getting allergy shots where they inject you with small amounts of the stuff you're allergic to in a way to build up your immunity.

I'm not going to tell you that it is 100% effective or has completely changed my life around. It's a good approach that makes sense and doesn't require you to sit an unload about your past for session after session without any kind of practical methods for coping with what's going on in the here an now. I do know that I have had a number of moments where I start to feel uneasy and pulling back and thinking about the reality of the situation and the fact that I've lived 36 years without going crazy and have never been permanently damaged by any of these issues helps me put it more into perspective. Will it last? I don't know. I've had enough "relapses" to know that I can't feel sure of anything, but it's just another helpful piece to have.

And, I apologize for recommending a "self help" book, but this might be of some help to you with your obsessive thinking:
http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Obsessing-Overcome-Obsessions-Compulsions/dp/0553381172/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2335977-6785468?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187277065&sr=1-1

bug on your lip
08-16-2007, 08:16 AM
thanks Fuhrer Buzz Kill

Yablonowitz
08-16-2007, 08:17 AM
thanks Fuhrer Buzz Kill

Hey, you read the thread title. You knew what you were getting into.

bug on your lip
08-16-2007, 08:22 AM
i swear when i read this thread this is the soundtrack that's playin


xnOjo-zVlKA

disgustipated
08-16-2007, 08:25 AM
Banana boobs...

J~$$$
08-16-2007, 09:13 AM
1L65Ek5aKWQ

TomAz
08-16-2007, 09:50 AM
5WJgQ37JmFc

PineapplePete
08-16-2007, 11:54 AM
since we're all youtubing...

a5TJApnJ8X8

Somewhat Damaged
08-16-2007, 12:36 PM
EDIT: Wait a second, did you say "court-ordered"? That might require another treatment entirely. What did you do?

Wrote a nasty letter a couple weeks after Columbine happened and my parents found it. Panic ensued.

RotationSlimWang
08-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Wrote a nasty letter a couple weeks after Columbine happened and my parents found it. Panic ensued.

Columbine made things so shitty for us disorderly kids who weren't big pussies.

I kept trying to tell them that only a *** would resort to mass murder/suicide rather than just smack the "jocks" in their kneecaps with a 2x4, but they wouldn't listen.

kimery08
08-16-2007, 01:39 PM
s.o.b's

mob roulette
08-16-2007, 01:41 PM
I always thought Marilyn nailed the very meaning of hysteria here:

qdMcyGFu9T4

Benis23
08-16-2007, 05:01 PM
Yab, you give this asshole too much consideration. Why are you even bothering to respond to him seriously when he comes out with this half-assed claim that "studies have also shown that there is absolutely no difference in the neurotransmitter levels (seratonin, norepinephrine, etc.) between people who are clinically depressed and those who are not?" I mean, seriously? He/She/Asshole's talking out of its ass here.

You got studies? Fucking post them. Better hope they're from some reputable fucking sources while you're at it. How much do you understand about neurochemistry, Benis?

You know how I generally feel about SSRIs, Yabs, but to come in here and say that there's NO LINK between serotonin levels and depression... how can you possibly extend such a douchebag even the most trifling of politenesses?

You must have finally found the right meds, that's the only explanation. Get off them already. =)

look, i dont want to make anyone angry, and i dont want want to incite more angry and hateful responses. i have spent a lot of time learning about and studying depression and anxiety, and i was sharing my opinions about them maybe you dont agree with what i have said, but im not sure that warrants an angry personal attack. i've taken many neuroscience, genetics, and psychology courses at UCLA, and i'm repeating studies that my professors have lectured about or studies that have been cited in the textbooks for those classes.

for that particular study - the one that you found so offensive, i would cite an abnormal psychology lecture given by tara niendam, who is a well respected clinical psychologist in los angeles as well as a part time professor at ucla. i have not read the study myself, but according to her (and this idea was repeated by my behavioral genetics professor, ty cannon), it is a very common myth that depression is caused by some sort of nuerotransmitter imbalance. in fact, the truth is that there is absolutely no difference in neurotransmitter levels in those who are depressed and those who are not. depression is caused by a combination of inherited genetic liability genes and environmental factors. if you are severely depressed, for instance, the explanation would be that you have inherited these liability genes and that there are events happening in your life (e.g. having your girlfriend break up with you, being turned down for a job, looking at yourself in the mirror, etc.) that are making you unhappy.

i understand that ssris are often successful at treating depression, but (and this is one of my problems with the treatment) it is a very indirect way of treating the problem. in that regard, treating depression with ssris is almost exactly the same as treating depression with marijuana.

i think you underestimate three things: 1) how much is currently known about how the brain works, 2) how much of a clumsy or primitive treatment ssris really are, and 3) the role that money plays in the frequent prescription of anti-depressents.

you probably know this already, but ssris work by blocking the reuptake of seratonin, so that there is an excess of seratonin left in the synapses between neurons. part of my problem with treating depression by inreasing seratonin levels, is that seratonin's physiological effects are very wide ranging. there are relatively few neurotransmitters in the brain, and each one has many different effects on the body. so, if you increase seratonin levels, you not only elevate mood, but you also affect your body weight, sex drive, circadian rhythm, drowsiness, the amount that you sweat, etc.

One of the misleading things that pharmaceutical companies do is that they label these other unwanted effects as "possible side effects." In reality, we know exactly what seratonin does, and the chance of most of those "side effects" occurring is exactly the same as the chance that the main effect (of elevated mood) will occur.

If you assume that i have never been depressed or suicidal, then you're wrong.

if you're having a hard getting excercise, just start very with something very easy, like a 5-10 min. walk, and slowly increase the difficulty of it. what you eat and how much excercise you get play an enormous role in how you feel. when you get excercise, your body releases endorphins and enkaphalins, which are opiates, so getting excercise is a very natural and healthy way to make your body and brain feel better.

luckyface
08-16-2007, 05:02 PM
So he's not a Scientologist, but a UCLA student. I guess this makes sense.

Benis23
08-16-2007, 05:09 PM
So wait. If I eat turkey, I'll be happy?

yes, how happy would depend on how much turkey you eat. turkey has tryptophan in it, and tryptophan is converted into seratonin in the brain. in a way, turkey has a very similar (but more mild) effect as seratonin reuptake-inhibitors. among other things, both elevate mood and make you drowsy.

as a sidenote, the only two ways to increase seratonin in your brain other than by taking anti-depressants are by eating healthy foods and by aging. seratonin levels naturally increase as you get older.

mob roulette
08-16-2007, 05:18 PM
What if I were to grind the turkey into a paste and then smoke it? Seriously. I'm asking.

amyzzz
08-16-2007, 05:22 PM
So you're saying we will get happier and happier as we age? (and fatter and lower sex drive and drowsier...)

Benis23
08-16-2007, 05:27 PM
So you're saying we will get happier and happier as we age? (and fatter and lower sex drive and drowsier...)

yes, seratonin increases with age, and testosterone (for guys anyway) decreases.

fatbastard
08-16-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm going on line now and selling all my pharmaceutical stocks and investing all of it in Zacky Farms.

RotationSlimWang
08-16-2007, 08:08 PM
I have several specific beefs with your argument, Benis, but I think I'm going to wait a little while before detailing them. Just woke up very groggy and VERY confused by reality's choice to be 7 pm and not 7 am as I thought it was when I first came to and glanced at a clock.

But in the meantime, how about you actually post a link of some sort to any of these studies? I'd be interested in reading them. And no, your recall of something your professor said doesn't count for anything. Sorry.

nothingman00
08-16-2007, 09:00 PM
I haven't been on the board in a couple days, and then I log on and have to digest 3 NEW pages on drugs??? Why didn't you people flash the pill bottle silhouette up into the night sky (Bat Man symbol style)? I'd have come flying in. Luckily enough, we had the Randy POV filtered through the Yablo spectrum, coupled with some unsubstantiated scientific claims to rile everyone up, and here we are... No progress whatsoever.

Yablonowitz
08-16-2007, 10:29 PM
Oh, Zach. Why don't you get in on this and we'll get something going?

I don't think Bevis was taking good notes in class.

Here are some weird observations from what he said:

SSRIs do work, but they disrupt the brain's serotonin system which creates problems like sex drive (true), circadian rhythm (7 years I've been on these, not noticed that), and sweat glands (I sweat the same now as I did 10 years ago).

But...serotonin levels aren't related to depression due to some poorly cited "study."

So, how do the SSRIs work if it's not for their effect on the serotonin system?

Also, eating food like turkey is the best way to go. Turkey increases the serotonin system which would explain its anti-depressive qualities if he hadn't already said that there is no connection between serotonin and depression.

People who have severe depression have a genetic disposition which is sensitive to the events and lifestyle of the person. So, you just have to live a better life and depression won't hit, supposedly. Ummm....I can guarantee you there are people who eat healthy, exercise, and live well who still get serious depression.

OK...that's about it. Let me know if I've misunderstood Benis' arguments.


He IS right in the general sense that living well (exercising, eating right) are key ingredients to helping depression and anxiety, but there are people who need more, some of it may be due to mistakes and flaws in their character and some of it just may be the way their brain/nervous system works.

Benis23
08-17-2007, 01:38 AM
Oh, Zach. Why don't you get in on this and we'll get something going?

I don't think Bevis was taking good notes in class.

Here are some weird observations from what he said:

SSRIs do work, but they disrupt the brain's serotonin system which creates problems like sex drive (true), circadian rhythm (7 years I've been on these, not noticed that), and sweat glands (I sweat the same now as I did 10 years ago).

But...serotonin levels aren't related to depression due to some poorly cited "study."

So, how do the SSRIs work if it's not for their effect on the serotonin system?

Also, eating food like turkey is the best way to go. Turkey increases the serotonin system which would explain its anti-depressive qualities if he hadn't already said that there is no connection between serotonin and depression.

People who have severe depression have a genetic disposition which is sensitive to the events and lifestyle of the person. So, you just have to live a better life and depression won't hit, supposedly. Ummm....I can guarantee you there are people who eat healthy, exercise, and live well who still get serious depression.

OK...that's about it. Let me know if I've misunderstood Benis' arguments.


He IS right in the general sense that living well (exercising, eating right) are key ingredients to helping depression and anxiety, but there are people who need more, some of it may be due to mistakes and flaws in their character and some of it just may be the way their brain/nervous system works.

first off, i dont want to seem as though i hate ssris. i think in cases of severe or fairly severe depression it can be a great treatment. if you have been taking ssris for a long time, are definitely happier with your life, and dont mind the side effects, then that sounds like a good treatment for you. however, i feel ssris are prescribed too frequently. in many cases of more moderate depression, counseling or increased excercise is a preferable treatment.

and i think a lot of it is up to the individual to figure out why they are depressed and to see if they can do anything about it. i mean, people are depressed for all kinds of reasons. you have to ask yourself - what is going on in my environment that is making me depressed? is it possible to fix whatever those problems are? is it realistic?

if you are chronically depressed and can't do anything to fix the problems on your own, and counseling and excercise dont help, then anti-depressants are probably the right next step. i just feel like a lot of people turn to ssris too quckly, looking for an easy solution and not realizing that ssris are a far from perfect treatment.

allright, let me try to clarify what i meant to say in my earlier post. ssris do work in the sense that they increase the amount of seratonin in your brain, and increased seratonin does elevate mood. my problem with ssris (or part of my problem anyway) is that it is a treatment that does not address the cause of the problem. so, whatever it was that was going on in your environment that was making you unhappy has not been fixed at all by ssris.

it reminds of the opening scene of the movie "major payne" with damon wayans, where some soldier is lying in agony on the ground because he has a broken leg. he shouts at damon wayans to make the pain go away, and damon wayans does so by breaking his finger. it works because he forgets about the pain in his leg since the pain in his finger is now much sharper. thats a crude example, but my opinion about ssris is that they do work in elevating mood, but they do nothing to fix what originally caused you to be depressed.

as far as you guys questioning my memory or what my professors have said, i do not remember who performed those studies, and im not about to spend hours scavenging through psychinfo to try to find them. i do have a very vivid memory of professor niendam (one of the top clinical psychologists in the country) saying that there is no difference in neurotransmitter levels between people who are clinically depressed and people who are not. it was really surprising to me at the time, because like you, i had thought that some kind of seratonin deficiency was a cause of depression. if you dont believe me, i could not care less.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 02:09 AM
Benis, you made a psychiatry claim and then spouted a bunch of psychology bullshit. You stated something AS FACT about neurochemistry--please back it the fuck up with some facts or at least pseudo-facts or stop pretending that you weren't talking up your position a lot further than you were prepared to back it up. Do you even know what these supposed studies were, or did you fail to write them down and shit and you're just trusting what you're pretty sure your teaching was saying? Shouldn't you have had to actually read the fucking study for this class, and have some record of what it's called and who wrote it? You're gonna need to produce these pronto, or excuse yourself.

You have once again brought us to a nature vs. nurture argument that I can't believe people still have. Once again: IT'S BOTH. Some people are more prone to depression by their genetics via their inherited chemistry--perhaps unavoidably prone in extreme cases, maybe just more likely to succumb to it under certain environmental factors in others--some people maybe weren't prone at all and became clinically depressed entirely due to environmental factors. So psychiatry is probably about 50 percent right on depression at the most, which is the most that the fuzzy sciences every claim anyway.

Any science that is proven only from anecdotal evidence is always bullshit anyway 'cause you can always claim the placebo effect even after cutting through that most people get misdiagnosed in the first place. But for a decent amount of people SSRI therapy does work, so who are you to say there's no connection? I barely notice any for me, but millions of motherfuckers out there say otherwise.

Looks like your basic argument is "it's not a cure, just a treatment." Um, yeah, that's all psychiatry ever manages, dude. They're not in the business of curing people--mostly because they don't know how but probably equally as much because they're the science born of the consumer age and have been business smart enough thus far to not cure anything beyond their patients' refill date.

Oh, and it's "serotonin," not "seratonin," asshole. Is this what happens when you go to UC, you come out spouting lots of bold claims but not being able to spell the acronyms involved?

I'm done with this guy. Yabs, way to string the pussy along. Zach, feel free to rape what's left.

clarky123
08-17-2007, 02:56 AM
I just read an article this morning which reads "Clinically depressed may just be sad".
It continues. Too many people are diagnosed with depression when they may simply be sad, research shows today. Thousands are needlessly given anti-depressants which have side effects such as suicidal thoughts, loss of libido and weaker bones. A study showed that 62% of patients classed as depressed were not depressed at all"
This shows the bar for diagnosing the illness is set too low. A low threshold for clinical depression risks treating normal states as illness.
The source of this is:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/335/7615/328?hits=10&FIRSTINDEX=0&FULLTEXT=Is+depression+overdiagnosed%3F&SEARCHID=1&gca=bmj%3B335%2F7615%2F328&

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 07:38 AM
Yes, SSRIs are WAY overprescribed. I know of people who took them who did it just as a way to relieve stress. General practicioners are the worst offenders in this arena. That's why I suggest you only go on anti-depressants if it's been prescribed by a psychiatrist. I know the stigma of that profession, but at least from my experience, they understand on a much finer level how the drugs work and the proper dosage techniques. It's very possible that the suicidality aspect of SSRIs when first taken has to do with the initial dose the doctor prescribes. Most gp's going through med school do not spend a lot of time on mental illnesses.

Randy - there's no reason for you to be a dick to Benis.

I didn't disagree with anything from his last post at all.

I'm relatively certain that the best means of treating mental health issues are changing the way you live, think and behave....bufffeted by SSRIs if you hit severe depression.

fatbastard
08-17-2007, 07:42 AM
http://203.17.167.25/media/gallery/103.jpg

roberto73
08-17-2007, 07:50 AM
The rest of you can debate the accuracy of Benis' argument; I'm more concerned about his serious reference to a Damon Wayans movie.

full on idle
08-17-2007, 09:52 AM
Hey Roberto, nice quote.

full on idle
08-17-2007, 09:55 AM
Nevermind, I found a new one.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 09:56 AM
Yabs--I don't agree with anything he had to say in the last post either. What I'd like to know is how that has anything to do with his initial claims. He has completely failed to support his fucked-up bullshit argument, and you're letting him slide on it.

Did Cognitive Behavioral Therapy give you a vagina, perchance?

full on idle
08-17-2007, 10:01 AM
Sometimes I scare myself with how bad I want to punch you in the mouth.

I think ignore is the only option here.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 10:06 AM
(a) don't blame me, blame the medication and lack thereof. (b) I was not wrong here, hobag. Just because I suggested Yabs is sporting a new vagina doesn't mean you should necessarily want to punch me in the mouth. Lord knows nobody would be happier about it than me.

bug on your lip
08-17-2007, 10:14 AM
(c) shut up

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 10:22 AM
Yabs--I don't agree with anything he had to say in the last post either. What I'd like to know is how that has anything to do with his initial claims. He has completely failed to support his fucked-up bullshit argument, and you're letting him slide on it.

Did Cognitive Behavioral Therapy give you a vagina, perchance?

Jesus, Randy. Let it go. I don't really care about what he said. It wasn't anything to take seriously, especially when he didn't have a study to back it up. But that hardly qualifies him as an asshole. You gotta chill on that shit, man. You're fucking overly hostile for no reason. You need to meditate.

amyzzz
08-17-2007, 10:25 AM
He has said many times that he has a reason for being hostile. He needs his drugs.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 10:26 AM
Hahaha, I hate it when people are actually making progress in their treatment.

TomAz
08-17-2007, 10:26 AM
Hostile Randy > Drugged Randy.

"Just sayin'."

fatbastard
08-17-2007, 10:28 AM
(c) shut up

Hahahahaha

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
Hey, sweet tits, we're getting a direct flight to Williams Gateway Airport starting in October, $160 tickets right now. Whaddya say I come fly out there and flick you in the face with my fingers and spit on your dog?

C'mon! Let's do this thing!

As you were saying, Yabs... something about needless hostility I believe?

bug on your lip
08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
Porcupine quill attack to yer ball sac > Hostile Randy > Drugged Randy

amyzzz
08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
Hostile Randy > Drugged Randy.

"Just sayin'."
I see your point.

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 10:33 AM
Porcupine quill attack to yer ball sac > Hostile Randy > Drugged Randy

I'm not changing my sig again. But I was tempted.

bug on your lip
08-17-2007, 10:34 AM
i'm losing my touch

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 10:36 AM
As you were saying, Yabs... something about needless hostility I believe?

There's nothing needless there.

TomAz
08-17-2007, 10:39 AM
Psychos:

please discuss the effect this message board has on your mental illness.

[] helps

[] makes it worse

[] passes the time



I am sure I will be riveted by your responses.

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 10:42 AM
Psychos:

please discuss the effect this message board has on your mental illness.

[] helps

[] makes it worse

[] passes the time



I am sure I will be riveted by your responses.

All I have to do is look at the running man photo I got from ivankay back in the day to make my decision: DEFINITELY A.

bballarl
08-17-2007, 10:42 AM
+10 to Tom.

amyzzz
08-17-2007, 10:45 AM
check check check

bug on your lip
08-17-2007, 10:46 AM
*giggle*

psychic friend
08-17-2007, 10:48 AM
Psychos:

please discuss the effect this message board has on your mental illness.

[] helps

[] makes it worse

[] passes the time

I am sure I will be riveted by your responses.

[x] all of the above

amyzzz
08-17-2007, 10:53 AM
^5, Dani.

PotVsKtl
08-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Barden N, Harvey M, Gagné B, Shink E, Tremblay M, Raymond C, Labbé M, Villeneuve A, Rochette D, Bordeleau L, Stadler H, Holsboer F, Müller-Myhsok B. 2006. “Analysis of Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms in Genes in the Chromosome 12Q24.31 Region Points to P2RX7 as a Susceptibility Gene to Bipolar Affective Disorder.” Am J Med Genet Part B 141B:374-382.

Abstract
Previous results from our genetic analyses using pedigrees from a French Canadian population suggested that the interval delimited by markers on chromosome 12, D12S86 and D12S378, was the most probable genomic region to contain a susceptibility gene for affective disorders. Association studies with microsatellite markers using a case/control sample from the same population (n = 427) revealed significant allelic associations between the bipolar phenotype and marker NBG6. Since this marker is located in intron 9 of the P2RX7 gene, we analyzed the surrounding genomic region for the presence of polymorphisms in regulatory, coding and intron/exon junction sequences. Twenty four (24) SNPs were genotyped in a case/control sample and 12 SNPs in all pedigrees used for linkage analysis. Allelic, genotypic or family-based association studies suggest the presence of two susceptibility loci, the P2RX7 and CaMKK2 genes. The strongest association was observed in bipolar families at the non-synonymous SNP P2RX7-E13A (rs2230912, P-value = 0.000708), which results from an over-transmission of the mutant G-allele to affected offspring. This Gln460Arg polymorphism occurs at an amino acid that is conserved between humans and rodents and is located in the C-terminal domain of the P2X7 receptor, known to be essential for normal P2RX7 function.

PotVsKtl
08-17-2007, 10:54 AM
Many antidepressants work by changing serotonin levels in the brain, which is why these classes of antidepressants are called Selective Serotonin Receptor Inhibitors (SSRIs). In May 2006, a study was published in the American Journal of Medical Genetics that suggests that a gene for major depressive disorders (including bipolar disorder) was found, and is not linked to serotonin. ScientistLive.com published a commentary about this study.

This gene is called P2RX7 and is found in humans and animals. This marked an advance in understanding the genetic basis of depressive disorders. Professor Barden was a lead investigator in the study and was quoted to say, “What is particularly exciting is that P2RX7 has nothing to do with serotonin.” Barden speculated that future antidepressants may directly target the P2RX7 gene, and current antidepressants may take weeks to have an effect because current antidepressants bypass P2RX7. In animal studies. directly targeting P2RX7 was shown to have an antidepressive effect.

Barden concluded that how P2RX7 works is still unknown, and may be part of a larger genetic network that is responsible for depression.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 10:54 AM
See, now Pot's talking reason.

And apparently, Dani, Amy gave you five ups.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 11:04 AM
And for the record, I'm pretty positive everyone across the board prefers the drugged me.

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 11:05 AM
Yeah, it's becoming more clear that serotonin isn't the only or even the primary component of depression. There is so much that's unknown about how this stuff works.

Fuck space. The brain is now the final frontier.

Yablonowitz
08-17-2007, 11:06 AM
And for the record, I'm pretty positive everyone across the board prefers the drugged me.

It's like the difference between removing my right or left testicle.

RotationSlimWang
08-17-2007, 11:07 AM
Dude... you let righty go. I've never liked your righty.

disgustipated
08-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Fuck space. The brain is now the final frontier.

sigged

psychic friend
08-17-2007, 11:08 AM
It's like the difference between removing my right or left testicle.

oh I like that. good one yabs!

Benis23
08-17-2007, 11:17 AM
a great article about serotonin and depression:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516262

it looks like theyre making you login if you click on that link. if you just google: "advertisments for ssris may be misleading" it will be the first site to show up and you wont have to login

an abstract for a study:
Owen F, Chambers DR, Cooper SJ, Crow TJ, Johnson JA, Lofthouse R, Poulter M.
Serotonergic mechanisms in brains of suicide victims.
Brain Res 1986 Jan 1;362(1):185-8
"Serotonergic mechanisms have been investigated in postmortem brain samples from controls and suicide victims. The concentrations of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin; 5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) were determined in occipital cortex and hippocampus and the high-affinity binding of ligands to the 5-HT1, 5-HT2 and imipramine-binding sites was assessed in frontal cortex, occipital cortex and hippocampus. The only significant difference between the two groups was a modest increase in 5-HIAA levels in the hippocampus of suicide victims. There was no evidence to suggest that those suicide victims with a clinical history of depression represented a subgroup with altered metabolite levels or binding values. The storage conditions of the samples were not related to the metabolite levels or binding values. There was, however, a significant positive correlation between [3H]imipramine binding and age in some brain regions. The results do not provide any evidence of gross alterations in 5-HT mechanisms in suicide or depression."

nothingman00
08-18-2007, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=Yablonowitz;273961]Oh, Zach. Why don't you get in on this and we'll get something going?

Sure thing...

I don't think Bevis was taking good notes in class.

Apprently not, the dude misspelled Beavis or worse yet, his name is Bevis...

Here are some weird observations from what he said:

SSRIs do work, but they disrupt the brain's serotonin system which creates problems like sex drive (true---depending on the medication you might forget what a libido is), circadian rhythm (7 years I've been on these, not noticed that---hmmm... No clue.), and sweat glands (I sweat the same now as I did 10 years ago---this I 'll agree with when Pluto becomes a planet again--damn you Disney--that Dog needs a planet to thrive!).

But...serotonin levels aren't related to depression due to some poorly cited "study." I could post 100 links to studies debunking this theory for every 1 that agrees with it...

So, how do the SSRIs work if it's not for their effect on the serotonin system?
What? Normally I woulodn;t post wikipedia shit, but read the articles that this links to. Should make it clear...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI


Also, eating food like turkey is the best way to go. Turkey increases the serotonin system which would explain its anti-depressive qualities if he hadn't already said that there is no connection between serotonin and depression.

I have been sober for 5+ days and think my drunk brain exchanged places with your sober, rational one. I eat turkey daily (literally, a turkey pita sandwich on wheat with 2% milk Sharp cheddar). Is this even remotely serious. I didn;t read all the shit that has been posted so I'm going off what you say, Yabs.

People who have severe depression have a genetic disposition which is sensitive to the events and lifestyle of the person. So, you just have to live a better life and depression won't hit, supposedly. Ummm....I can guarantee you there are people who eat healthy, exercise, and live well who still get serious depression.

I eat extremely healthy, exercise, fuck the everliving shit out of my wife (or she fucks the everliving shit out of me) wherever, whenever... I make enough money that I don;t have to wake up before 11AM. I think even depression is a beautiful state... I think people who are more involved with the world around them are more susceptible to being depressed, anxious (and I'm talking about clinical states), and probably are the ones who are taking medicine. The question about "What did people d0 50 years ago to combat depression is irrelevant. At that time, you could go to college and know, for a fact, that you'd get a good job. Now, you can get your degree and still be applying at fucking Chili's.

OK...that's about it. Let me know if I've misunderstood Benis' arguments.


He IS right in the general sense that living well (exercising, eating right) are key ingredients to helping depression and anxiety, but there are people who need more, some of it may be due to mistakes and flaws in their character and some of it just may be the way their brain/nervous system works.


[COLOR="Red"]Bingo! And people who don't exercise or "live right" should just be left in the gutter. Look, I've been a dick with my lifestyle, but I like the way my life plays out, except for the overwhelming (at times) anxiety. That said, I know many people who live extremely healthy and have clinical depression, anxiety, both... Only someone who has experienced a panic attack while living a healthy (or at least a normal) lifestyle can truly understand exactly how debilitating a panic attack can be...

nothingman00
08-18-2007, 09:24 AM
Yeah, it's becoming more clear that serotonin isn't the only or even the primary component of depression. There is so much that's unknown about how this stuff works.

Fuck space. The brain is now the final frontier.

This is one of the best lines ever posted on this board (applause)....

TomAz
08-18-2007, 07:44 PM
Fuck space. The brain is now the final frontier.

trading one vacuum for another..

bug on your lip
08-20-2007, 07:48 AM
Americans popping pills at an alarming rate

MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. (AP) - People in the United States are living in a world of pain and they are popping pills at an alarming rate to cope with it.

The amount of five major painkillers sold at retail establishments rose 90 percent between 1997 and 2005, according to an Associated Press analysis of statistics from the Drug Enforcement Administration.

An AP investigation found these reasons for the increase:

-The population is getting older. As age increases, so does the need for pain medications. In 2000, there were 35 million people older than 65. By 2020, the Census Bureau estimates the number of elderly in the U.S. will reach 54 million.

-Drugmakers have embarked on unprecedented marketing campaigns. Spending on drug marketing has gone from $11 billion in 1997 to nearly $30 billion in 2005, congressional investigators found. Profit margins among the leading companies routinely have been three and four times higher than in other Fortune 500 industries.

-A major change in pain management philosophy is now in its third decade. Doctors who once advised patients that pain is part of the healing process began reversing course in the early 1980s; most now see pain management as an important ingredient in overcoming illness.