PDA

View Full Version : Concert Fans Beware!



shotglass75
12-28-2009, 06:16 PM
If this is posted elsewhere, my apologies.

Fellow Concertgoers,

There's a train wreck about to happen and consumer groups say YOU will be the victim - if the two most powerful corporate interests in the live concert business get their way. But you can help stop the merger of Ticketmaster and Live Nation. The government needs to hear from music fans now. Tell the Department of Justice that you're against these monopolies amassing illegal power over consumers, before it's too late. antitrust.complaints@usdoj.gov

As a concertgoer you have already felt the pain, and if Ticketmaster and Live Nation get their way, it'll get worse. In the last 12 years, since Live Nation and its predecessor started its widespread take over of the concert industry, concert tickets have shot up 82% while the consumer price index has gone up just 17%*. We are concerned that if the two concert industry behemoths, Live Nation and Ticketmaster, were permitted to merge, the variety and quality of artists coming to local venues would be affected, and your prices could rise further and faster.

Five of the nation's most prominent public interest groups called on the Department of Justice to block the proposed merger of Ticketmaster and Live Nation.

In the consumer groups' and lawmakers' words:

"Consumers deserve a fair deal in the entertainment marketplace, not the fewer choices and higher prices that would result from this merger," said Susan Grant, Director of Consumer Protection at Consumer Federation of America.

"This merger is an insult to both musicians and consumers," said James Love, Director of Knowledge Ecology International

"We cannot envision a remedy that would ease this chilling impediment to competition… In the absence of other effective, expeditious remedies, the proposed transaction should be prohibited." American Antitrust Institute White Paper

As described by Senator Herb Kohl (WI) in the Senate Antitrust hearing, "This merger will not only expand Ticketmaster's control of the ticketing market by eliminating a competitor, but it is also creating an entity that will control the entire chain of the concert business – from artist management to concert promotion and production to ticketing and ticket resale."

"This merger would be a disaster for consumers. Nothing short of blocking this takeover of the ticket market by two industry behemoths will be acceptable," said National Consumers League Executive Director Sally Greenberg.

"As president, I will direct my administration to reinvigorate antitrust enforcement. I will step up review of merger activity and take effective action to stop or restructure those mergers that are likely to harm consumer welfare…," said Senator Barak Obama when he was campaigning for the presidency.


If you agree with the consumer groups and lawmakers, make a difference and LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NOW.

If you are tired of paying exorbitant ticket prices and service charges and paying for parking on a per head basis and dealing with the gouging, unregulated secondary ticket market in an effort to get good seating. If you are disgusted with paying more and more every year for the live concert experience THEN ACT NOW, CLICK ON THE LINK IMMEDIATELY BELOW AND SEND A MESSAGE TO THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE URGING THEM TO STOP THIS MERGER!
antitrust.complaints@usdoj.gov

To learn more, check out:

ticketdisaster.org

Public Interest Groups Call on Justice Department to Block Ticketmaster/LiveNation/Comcast Merger (http://smr.mm.ticketmaster.com/track?type=click&enid=bWFpbGluZ2lkPTMwMDQ0MyZtZXNzYWdlaWQ9MzM1MjQzJ mRhdGFiYXNlaWQ9REFUQUJBU0VJRCZzZXJpYWw9MTIzMTY0NzM 4NSZlbWFpbGlkPXN0ZXZlbWF2aWFub0BzYmNnbG9iYWwubmV0J nVzZXJpZD03OTE2MDU5MTcmZXh0cmE9JiYmaHR0cDovL3d3dy5 uY2xuZXQub3JnL25ld3MvMjAwOS90aWNrZXRtYXN0ZXJfbWVyZ 2VyXzEyMDEyMDA5Lmh0bQ==)

American Antitrust Institute's White Paper TICKETMASTER - LIVE NATION (http://smr.mm.ticketmaster.com/track?type=click&enid=bWFpbGluZ2lkPTMwMDQ0MyZtZXNzYWdlaWQ9MzM1MjQzJ mRhdGFiYXNlaWQ9REFUQUJBU0VJRCZzZXJpYWw9MTIzMTY0NzM 4NSZlbWFpbGlkPXN0ZXZlbWF2aWFub0BzYmNnbG9iYWwubmV0J nVzZXJpZD03OTE2MDU5MTcmZXh0cmE9JiYmaHR0cDovL3d3dy5 hbnRpdHJ1c3RpbnN0aXR1dGUub3JnL2FyY2hpdmVzL2ZpbGVzL 1RJQ0tFVE1BU1RFUiUyMFJldmlzZWQuNC4yOC4wOV8wNDMwMjA wOTIyMjEucGRm)

Philadelphia Weekly's cover story "Monopoly Rules" (http://smr.mm.ticketmaster.com/track?type=click&enid=bWFpbGluZ2lkPTMwMDQ0MyZtZXNzYWdlaWQ9MzM1MjQzJ mRhdGFiYXNlaWQ9REFUQUJBU0VJRCZzZXJpYWw9MTIzMTY0NzM 4NSZlbWFpbGlkPXN0ZXZlbWF2aWFub0BzYmNnbG9iYWwubmV0J nVzZXJpZD03OTE2MDU5MTcmZXh0cmE9JiYmaHR0cDovL3d3dy5 waGlsYWRlbHBoaWF3ZWVrbHkuY29tL211c2ljL0xpdmUtQWJvb WluYXRpb24tNTA4MDI5MTcuaHRtbA==)

Signed,


Jam Productions, The 9:30 Club, Merriweather Post Pavilion, Metropolitan Talent, Another Planet, Frank Productions, Stone City Attractions, Rams Head Live, The Black Cat …… and independent concert promoters and venue operators nationwide.

*Study by Princeton University economist Alan Krueger

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 06:18 PM
Fuck this bullshit man, it's not the government's job to interfere with private businesses. Boycott it like a man.

ELECtROjan
12-28-2009, 06:19 PM
It'll be interesting to see how Obama's judges act on this

shotglass75
12-28-2009, 06:22 PM
Fuck this bullshit man, it's not the government's job to interfere with private businesses. Boycott it like a man.


Go on.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Not sure what you're asking me to do...I do not support having Mr. Obama come and save us every time prices go up. It's not the way the market is supposed to work and in the long run we suffer.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Fuck this bullshit man, it's not the government's job to interfere with private businesses. Boycott it like a man.

It actually is... and has been for a long time.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 06:26 PM
Show me the law that allows it...and I'll show you the Constitution.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 06:27 PM
Show me the law that allows it...and I'll show you the Constitution.

They are called antitrust laws you fucking imbecile.

shotglass75
12-28-2009, 06:32 PM
Not sure what you're asking me to do...I do not support having Mr. Obama come and save us every time prices go up. It's not the way the market is supposed to work and in the long run we suffer.


Coming atcha with respect.

How are we not suffering right now with this monopoly possibly taking control of the live music industry? If this merger happens and prices continue to skyrocket, how would you go about boycotting it like a man?

Unfortunately it seems that we are at a time when the only thing really controlling our country/government is big business.

suprefan
12-28-2009, 06:37 PM
wtf was this when we started talking about it a while ago...


http://coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26687&highlight=ticketmaster

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 06:39 PM
Coming atcha with respect.

How are we not suffering right now with this monopoly possibly taking control of the live music industry? If this merger happens and prices continue to skyrocket, how would you go about boycotting it like a man?

Unfortunately it seems that we are at a time when the only thing really controlling our country/government is big business.

None of this matters man... Because he's going to come back and show us how the constitution authorizes congress to enact federal laws in order to protect interstate commerce... one of these bodies of laws being the sherman antitrust act. He'll connect the dots for us... Don't worry.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 07:24 PM
The interstate commerce clause wasn't put there so Congress could decide which companies could exist and which couldn't. That's way out of the bounds of their powers. The Sherman Antitrust Act does more harm than good. But this is getting beside the point.


How are we not suffering right now with this monopoly possibly taking control of the live music industry? If this merger happens and prices continue to skyrocket, how would you go about boycotting it like a man?

Unfortunately it seems that we are at a time when the only thing really controlling our country/government is big business.

We do suffer (although that's hardly the best word to use) but how do you boycott anything? You don't buy the product. You make your voice heard. Most of our favorite musicians are hardcore lefties anyway, I'm sure it will all work itself out...just like the market.

Yeah it's unfortunate how business has the power to control government but this is why we have the right to vote these people in and out of office. It's more unfortunate that government in turn gives in to crooked executives.

Alchemy
12-28-2009, 07:37 PM
Ticketmaster and Live Nation aren't selling mindless products. These tickets are for concerts, and bands are behind these concerts. Musicians carry a lot of responsibility on how they or their label conduct their live performances, and if Ticketmaster/Live Nation become more of a monster, than they'll find other ways of selling their shows. Plus, it's not like Ticketmaster/Live Nation's the only thing that can make/sell a ticket. If a venue has a website and paypal account, then they can make a will call. If they have a printer, then they can make some tickets for people buying in person.

In other words, it's not really a monopoly. You can do the same thing without having to face competition with them. If a band decides to sell its own tickets, Ticketmaster won't be able to compete with them.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:37 PM
The interstate commerce clause wasn't put there so Congress could decide which companies could exist and which couldn't.

And that's not the concern here either. Nice try though. The issue is a merger, which has been protected by anti-trust law since long before all the common law and statutory disjunct was aggregated under the Sherman Act.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:42 PM
Also, you seem to be under the impression that the only thing at stake here is the consumer. But there are substantial state's rights in question as well. Both Ticketmaster and Live Nation are incorporated under state's laws (probably under multiple)... The state's also have an interest in monopolized business, largely because it can be incredibly detrimental to local economies. The sherman act was designed in part to protect these interests when states cannot do so themselves.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 07:43 PM
That is the concern, as long as you're talking about that merger causing the creation of a new company (in this case, an effective monopoly) - that's what's happening, isn't it?

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:43 PM
That is the concern, as long as you're talking about that merger causing the creation of a new company (in this case, an effective monopoly) - that's what's happening, isn't it?

No it's not. Both companies are already incorporated... One might dissolve, but a new one is not created. You are talking about assimilation of interests. Not the creation of a new company.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 07:47 PM
Well for the purposes of what I was saying it's the same thing - the creation of a monopoly and the absence of competition. I'm all for competition but not for us asking Obama to make sure there's enough of it.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:50 PM
You want to turn the most basic components of this issue into something that really has nothing at stake at all.

Where the policy exists in this equation is discussion of whether or not the aforementioned merger actually IS a monopoly. That's where this question lies. Only an idiot would call the Sherman Act unconstitutional or question the detrimental effects of monopoly.

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:53 PM
I'm all for competition but not for us asking Obama to make sure there's enough of it.

Also, you have the equation backwards. Live Nation and Ticketmaster are subject to merger laws. The FTC has to approve the merger in accordance with the Sherman Act. That's the way this works. You can talk about Obama and ensuring competition until you are blue in the face... But this element of the process isn't really the crucial question.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Not questioning the detrimental effects of a monopoly, but pointing out the detrimental effects of antitrust laws, and how they are stretches of constitutional authority.

It is as much a monopoly as anything is these days, but as Alchemy points out Ticketmaster doesn't get absolute power and venues and artists can choose other paths. And we can boycott.

edit: yeah you've made your point, I'll stop arguing to get rid of the stupid merger laws

york707
12-28-2009, 07:55 PM
The Sherman Antitrust Act does more harm than good.



the detrimental effects of antitrust laws


Do you care to elaborate on this point?


they are stretches of constitutional authority.

Maybe, but the legal framework for these laws is fairly well established at this point.

psycobetabuckdown
12-28-2009, 07:57 PM
I think we're moving on york. This thread isn't really about that, and I shouldn't have brought it up.

TommyboyUNM
12-28-2009, 07:57 PM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d136/tommyboyunm/popcorn-1.gif

wmgaretjax
12-28-2009, 07:58 PM
how they are stretches of constitutional authority.

beaten to it... but the reality is... the constitution is a living document. Perhaps when it was written this would have seemed a stretch... But then again, the function of incorporation was entirely different then (something that is more ripe for constitutional questioning). as it stands now, I've never read a convincing critique of the constitutionality of the Sherman Act... I'd be curious to read a compelling argument, even if at this point I don't believe one exists.

york707
12-28-2009, 08:11 PM
Sorry Psycho, just getting to it. This thread reminds me of this one: http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3054. Goddamn I was on fire that day.

bmack86
12-28-2009, 10:57 PM
Lawyers to the rescue! Sorry guys, I got here too late.

Mickjagger00
12-28-2009, 11:01 PM
WAY TOO LATE THEY MERGER TALKS hvae gone on since 03

juloxx
12-29-2009, 01:19 AM
I hate ticket master. Honestly they are the biggest douche bags.


My question is if ticket prices bump up, will more money be going to the artists? I mean since most artists don't make much money of their cd's I wouldnt mind paying a little extra to support them. A little, being key

york707
12-29-2009, 04:48 AM
WAY TOO LATE THEY MERGER TALKS hvae gone on since 03

What are you going on about?

psycobetabuckdown
12-29-2009, 10:55 AM
beaten to it... but the reality is... the constitution is a living document. Perhaps when it was written this would have seemed a stretch... But then again, the function of incorporation was entirely different then (something that is more ripe for constitutional questioning). as it stands now, I've never read a convincing critique of the constitutionality of the Sherman Act... I'd be curious to read a compelling argument, even if at this point I don't believe one exists.

Just want to point out that "living document" isn't in reference to reinterpreting the words, but the fact that it can be amended as time goes on. I agree some words are unclear or do not reveal the full original intent, but in that case we should be amending the constitution, not just reinterpreting things how one judge or another sees fit.

psycobetabuckdown
12-29-2009, 10:57 AM
I hate ticket master. Honestly they are the biggest douche bags.


My question is if ticket prices bump up, will more money be going to the artists? I mean since most artists don't make much money of their cd's I wouldnt mind paying a little extra to support them. A little, being key

I bet they'll get a little more but not a comparable percentage. I can't wait for $20 fees on $15 tickets.

Boourns
12-29-2009, 11:00 AM
Seriously. We already have $12 in fees on $10 tickets.

bobert
12-29-2009, 12:36 PM
It is as much a monopoly as anything is these days, but as Alchemy points out Ticketmaster doesn't get absolute power and venues and artists can choose other paths. And we can boycott.

edit: yeah you've made your point, I'll stop arguing to get rid of the stupid merger laws

Well, considering that most of the great venues in this country are owned (or have exclusive contracts with) by either Ticketmaster or Livenation, they certainly don't get to choose their own means of ticket distribution. If a band decides they want nothing to do with either of these ticketing agencies, forget about playing in any of the good venues in this country, and with the exception of Bonnaroo (which does ticket independently) every major festival would be off the table as well. As for boycotting, why would any serious music fan want to deny themselves plenty of top-shelf shows simply out of principle - especially when it would have absolutely no effect on corporate behemoth like a merged Ticketmaster/Livenation. Bottom line is that what these two companies are doing is illegal, and if you can't think of any highly relevant, recent examples of what happens when large American corporations are allowed to grow too big without any government regulation, than you haven't turned on the news in the last two years.

suprefan
12-29-2009, 12:39 PM
Ticketmaster owns no venues, Live Nation does though. Thats why something like this looks to be a bad thing, if you combine one caompany who has contracts with venues, and the other which owns the venues they dont have contracts with, well, you pretty much got a lot of places an act cant play if they decide to not sign with LN for a tour.

bobert
12-29-2009, 12:40 PM
Ticketmaster has exclusive contracts with thousands of venues, though, which means the same thing for the consumer.

EDIT: you revised your post to say just that.

pancakespancakes
12-29-2009, 01:03 PM
Bobert, I agree with the large majority of your post, but


If a band decides they want nothing to do with either of these ticketing agencies, forget about playing in any of the good venues in this country

this is really not true,



and with the exception of Bonnaroo (which does ticket independently) every major festival would be off the table as well

and this is also not very true.


Boycotting TM/LN entirely is not impossible, and not insane.

Alchemy
12-29-2009, 01:36 PM
Bobert, if TM/LV become such a hassle, less people will buy tickets, the venues will be hurt, and those contracts with TM will be cut. People will see less and less shows if $15 shows become $30 shows, all of a sudden. They just won't have the money and the venues will know why and the bands will know why. Also, if venues don't change, new venues will rise to accommodate. TM's weakness is that they can't stop this kind of competition, because if a band decides to sell its own shows out of TM/LV, then TM/LV can't do a thing about it.

wmgaretjax
12-29-2009, 01:38 PM
but in that case we should be amending the constitution, not just reinterpreting things how one judge or another sees fit.

Again. You can say this till you are blue in the face. But it doesn't make it true. The whole point of the judicial branch is interpretation of the constitution. Part of the purpose of that is to enable the document to live outside of its initial inception. ch-ch-ch-ch-ch....

Drinkey McDrinkerstein
12-29-2009, 01:44 PM
Bobert, if TM/LV become such a hassle, less people will buy tickets, the venues will be hurt, and those contracts with TM will be cut. People will see less and less shows if $15 shows become $30 shows, all of a sudden. They just won't have the money and the venues will know why and the bands will know why. Also, if venues don't change, new venues will rise to accommodate. TM's weakness is that they can't stop this kind of competition, because if a band decides to sell its own shows out of TM/LV, then TM/LV can't do a thing about it.

the only problem I see with this theory (which i would love to agree with, btw) is that the iron-headed music industry never wants to blame itself for any of its problems, venues included

It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens if the general public indeed does wise up and just stops buying tickets though

Alchemy
12-29-2009, 01:55 PM
the only problem I see with this theory (which i would love to agree with, btw) is that the iron-headed music industry never wants to blame itself for any of its problems, venues included

It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens if the general public indeed does wise up and just stops buying tickets though

You don't need the music industry or the venues to blame themselves. Bands will complain when their shows aren't selling. Fans will complain about venues using TicketNation. Then you'll have new faces popping up in the industry and venue business that will cater to the people shunned by the fat cats at TicketNation and the venues that choose to side with them.

Drinkey McDrinkerstein
12-29-2009, 01:59 PM
You sound overoptimistic to me but I hope you're right.

canexplain
12-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Most of our favorite musicians are hardcore lefties anyway, I'm sure it will all work itself out...just like the market.


Maybe most of "our" musicians are lefties but they no longer control the market. I searched all over for the article I read last week but Live Nation or someone with a good knowledge of the industry said that the country music genre was by far the biggest selling and rising music of the last decade. Point being, most country musicians are right wing and conservative christens. We do have TicketWeb and Ticket Horse in Denver and Ticket Horse controls some of the biggest venues, but AEG, Live Nation, and Ticketmaster control the majority of venues. Cr****

Alchemy
12-29-2009, 02:10 PM
It's do-able to see Fiery Furnaces, Islands, and Dirty Projectors for $15 each. Not so much at $30 each. $45 is much different than $90. Assuming that we see service fees at around $12-15.

People will have to pick and choose, and the bands not chosen will have to retaliate by using other venues.

york707
12-29-2009, 02:25 PM
It's do-able to see Fiery Furnaces, Islands, and Dirty Projectors for $15 each. Not so much at $30 each. $45 is much different than $90. Assuming that we see service fees at around $12-15.

People will have to pick and choose, and the bands not chosen will have to retaliate by using other venues.

You can see Fiery Furnaces, Islands, and Dirty Projectors for $15 each because they aren't very popular bands in society in general, not because they are fighting system and flipping the bird to TM.

Alchemy
12-29-2009, 02:35 PM
You can see Fiery Furnaces, Islands, and Dirty Projectors for $15 each because they aren't very popular bands in society in general, not because they are fighting system and flipping the bird to TM.

Yes, that's my point. I was using those bands as an example because all of them used TM to sell tickets in their recent tours. If we have to pay more and more for our tickets because of a merger, then bands like that probably will start flipping the bird to TM.

psycobetabuckdown
12-29-2009, 03:50 PM
if you can't think of any highly relevant, recent examples of what happens when large American corporations are allowed to grow too big without any government regulation, than you haven't turned on the news in the last two years.

Well perhaps the news is misreporting or misunderstanding the facts - there has been plenty of government regulation. There's no such thing as "too big" anyway.

psycobetabuckdown
12-29-2009, 04:02 PM
Yes, that's my point. I was using those bands as an example because all of them used TM to sell tickets in their recent tours. If we have to pay more and more for our tickets because of a merger, then bands like that probably will start flipping the bird to TM.

In the end, whatever the shows are worth people will pay. It the shows aren't worth the price of admission they will be poorly attended. That means we might have to suffer for a while, but eventually competition is inevitable.

suprefan
12-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Ticketmaster has exclusive contracts with thousands of venues, though, which means the same thing for the consumer.

EDIT: you revised your post to say just that.

What, I didnt edit anything, you didnt read it all and tried to say otherwise. Sorry. And no, its not the same thing.

Mickjagger00
01-03-2010, 07:32 PM
this sucks