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SoulDischarge
10-29-2009, 05:04 PM
We need some fresh controversy. What I want to know is: according to your personal moral code, under what circumstances is killing another human being acceptable?

Sleepingrock
10-29-2009, 05:11 PM
Euthanasia if the person having it done wants it done

Your body, your call.... unless your "depressed" I mean if you have a terminal illness


OR if you are a celebrity, if you're famous you can do all you want!

MissingPerson
10-29-2009, 05:16 PM
When I was in the army reserve, we were permitted to fire on somebody in defense of our lives, comrades, mission or weapon.

I think I'm still okay with the first two of those in certain extraordinary circumstances.

psycobetabuckdown
10-29-2009, 05:17 PM
Only if that person is putting your life at risk. This includes various forms of organized war.

psycobetabuckdown
10-29-2009, 05:19 PM
When I was in the army reserve, we were permitted to fire on somebody in defense of our lives, comrades, mission or weapon.

I think I'm still okay with the first two of those in certain extraordinary circumstances.

Assuming your mission is a good one and theirs is bad, I'd think that would be ok. The weapon thing is a no-brainer, isn't it?

HandBanana
10-29-2009, 05:21 PM
If they host a popular program on the Fox news network.

MissingPerson
10-29-2009, 05:31 PM
Assuming your mission is a good one and theirs is bad, I'd think that would be ok. The weapon thing is a no-brainer, isn't it?

I don't know. Depends, I guess.

Say it's an empty gun, for instance, the code still allows for that. For the early stages of training, you'd be running around with a dry rifle anyway, but you were still permitted to kill in it's defence. Which seems weird to me, but I can see the reasoning.

It presents no immediate threat to anybody, but it's potential for later harm to others is immense. So you'd have to weigh the prospect of quite certainly killing somebody now against the abstract possibility of killing somebody later.

It used to be a very present problem back when the IRA were more active, which is why it's there in the code right from the start. One gun could make the difference between a single funeral or a massacre.

Anyway, I'm glad I'll never have to make the call.

psycobetabuckdown
10-29-2009, 05:33 PM
But also if someone sees you without a weapon, you're more vulnerable whether it's loaded or not, right? That can mean life or death.

SoulDischarge
10-29-2009, 05:34 PM
Also, what are people's opinions on the death penalty? If you support it, for what kind of offenders?

MissingPerson
10-29-2009, 05:36 PM
I absolutely oppose the death penalty.

psycobetabuckdown
10-29-2009, 05:38 PM
I do not support the death penalty. I am pro-life and so should everyone else be, including conservatives who call themselves pro-life.

TommyboyUNM
10-29-2009, 05:40 PM
I am pro-life and so should everyone else be...

Where's your sense of adventure?

boarderwoozel3
10-29-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm for it. Some people need to be removed from society & existence asap. Pretty much anyone who would be sentenced for life without the chance of parole. At that point you've done something worthy of death in my eyes. Rot in a cell on my dollar for something you did? Methinks not. And if death isn't applicable or accepted, up the work programs and get more hard labor out of them.

rskapcat
10-29-2009, 05:43 PM
The appeals process costs taxpayers a lot of money...more than keeping them alive in prison.

psycobetabuckdown
10-29-2009, 05:43 PM
I've always heard that it costs much more to kill the inmates, court costs and such. What is this "removed from existence" shit you're spewing? Society, maybe. Existence, wtf? Jail is enough.

BlackSwan
10-29-2009, 07:29 PM
What I want to know is: according to your personal moral code, under what circumstances is killing another human being acceptable?

It is definitely a case-by-case kind of decision, but I would consider anyone who has intentionally killed an innocent person a candidate for being murdered. Feel free to offer examples for me to decide on.


Also, what are people's opinions on the death penalty? If you support it, for what kind of offenders?

I definitely support it for murderers--possibly child molesters and rapists.

EDIT: In terms of the method I like boarder's labor camp idea.

fatbastard
10-29-2009, 07:44 PM
Pay states bonuses to kill people on death row.

wmgaretjax
10-29-2009, 07:44 PM
I would kill someone that wanted to die... Euthanasia...

I don't think I could do it besides that though... It's impossible to try and hypothesize what I would do in an extreme situation though.

humanoid
10-29-2009, 07:48 PM
Also, what are people's opinions on the death penalty? If you support it, for what kind of offenders?

I support it in certain cases. Of course I am slightly uneasy with giving the state the right to kill, but when someone is overwhelmingly guilty of a heinous crime, I don't see reason to keep them alive. There are inherent issues with how it is applied, but like I said, certain cases.

example....Richard Ramirez....sick fuck terrorized California for over a year. Often sneaking into peoples' homes while they slept and murdering them, sometimes raping them....he climbed into a 79 year old woman's window and raped her, stabbed her repeatedly and almost decapitated her while slashing her throat. That was only his first known murder. He followed with many more just as vicious.

he was found guilty of 13 murders, 5 attempted murders and 11 sexual assaults and is suspected in more cases

I see no reason why this guy needs to live

Hannahrain
10-29-2009, 07:51 PM
Also, what are people's opinions on the death penalty? If you support it, for what kind of offenders?

Execution and life in prison should be the same sentence, with the convict selecting one at the point of sentencing. If they choose life, they should be able to opt-out and choose the death penalty in the future if they want.

Young blood
10-29-2009, 07:58 PM
If everyone wasn't so fucking so uptight I would be killing people left and right.

fatbastard
10-29-2009, 08:02 PM
Execution and life in prison should be the same sentence, with the convict selecting one at the point of sentencing. If they choose life, they should be able to opt-out and choose the death penalty in the future if they want.

I would support a prison lottery in which inmates could sign up for a lottery that would either be freedom or amputation. People who had only their fingers, toes, hands, and wrists cut off would agree to be killed if they lost.

JustSteve
10-29-2009, 09:22 PM
We need some fresh controversy. What I want to know is: according to your personal moral code, under what circumstances is killing another human being acceptable?

you do something deplorable to one of my children.

JustSteve
10-29-2009, 09:25 PM
It used to be a very present problem back when the IRA were more active, which is why it's there in the code right from the start. One gun could make the difference between a single funeral or a massacre.

oh man, i did the black taxi tour of belfast when i was in ireland and there was a bar up there that had a cage outside the front door and cameras on every corner pointing towards it. don't recall if it was ira or uff, but one group had entered the bar before those security measures were there and opened fire on the crowd with fully automatic weapons. just insane.

JustSteve
10-29-2009, 09:28 PM
I definitely support it for murderers--possibly child molesters and rapists

prison justice is nice and swift for child molesters, at least we save a buck or two on them.

BlackSwan
10-29-2009, 09:43 PM
Actually now that I think about it some sort of Gladiator competition for violent criminals would be entertaining and effective.

obzen
10-29-2009, 10:05 PM
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/080425/running-man_l.jpg

Somewhat Damaged
10-29-2009, 10:22 PM
I support it in certain cases. Of course I am slightly uneasy with giving the state the right to kill, but when someone is overwhelmingly guilty of a heinous crime, I don't see reason to keep them alive. There are inherent issues with how it is applied, but like I said, certain cases.

example....Richard Ramirez....sick fuck terrorized California for over a year. Often sneaking into peoples' homes while they slept and murdering them, sometimes raping them....he climbed into a 79 year old woman's window and raped her, stabbed her repeatedly and almost decapitated her while slashing her throat. That was only his first known murder. He followed with many more just as vicious.

he was found guilty of 13 murders, 5 attempted murders and 11 sexual assaults and is suspected in more cases

I see no reason why this guy needs to live

Yup. This was pretty much my argument on another board a decade ago. This one guy argued that whole "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" hokum but let's see it as a preventative measure. Ted Bundy, for instance, wasn't going to be rehabilitated and he escaped prison once & went on to kill a few more women. Executing him insured that he never again had an opportunity to kill anybody else.

I would also agree that child molesters and rapists, in some instances, deserve execution. At the very least castration. Especially as it's been empirically proven that pederasts can't be rehabilitated (just like people with anti-social personality disorder). The potential for them to commit that crime again is too great to permit them to live.

stinkbutt
10-29-2009, 10:24 PM
Personally there are a few things that I think would justify murder; politically and socially I don't find it justifiable under any circumstance.

nbvcide
10-29-2009, 10:43 PM
We need some fresh controversy. What I want to know is: according to your personal moral code, under what circumstances is killing another human being acceptable?

Any..

boarderwoozel3
10-29-2009, 10:50 PM
From a human rights perspective, once you knowingly and intentionally violate the rights of another human an egregious enough degree, you forfeit your own, IMO.

But one of problems with enforcing the death penalty for non fatal crimes like molestation or rape is it may encourage the perpetrator to kill the victim to reduce the chance of their being caught seeing as death is already in play on their end.

Tricky business to say the least.

marooko
10-29-2009, 10:53 PM
Every situation has potential.

rage patton
10-29-2009, 11:49 PM
Personally there are a few things that I think would justify murder; politically and socially I don't find it justifiable under any circumstance.

Someone is about to kill your family or someone else you love, and the only way to stop them is by killing them. What do you do?

stinkbutt
10-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Like I said there are grounds I would personally kill someone but I am against capital punishment in every case.

BKsaysAction!
10-30-2009, 12:17 AM
I've read a couple of stories online that in my mind justified murder but I think locking them away with no contact with the outside world except food and an occasional shower for the rest of their lives is worse.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 12:20 AM
I assumed this thread was Kroqken oriented.



Carry on.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 01:47 AM
I do not support the death penalty. I am pro-life and so should everyone else be, including conservatives who call themselves pro-life.
So, when an innocent 7 yr. old child disappears and is found dead after being molested, you feel the person responsible should be able to live on? Or, the guy who robs and kills an elderly couple...he should be able to live on and have shelter, meals, and medical care?

I've always heard that it costs much more to kill the inmates, court costs and such. What is this "removed from existence" shit you're spewing? Society, maybe. Existence, wtf? Jail is enough.
Do you think that inmate thought about the costs of his final actions before he did them? Did he consider the value of someone's life? No, probably not. So why should we worry about supporting the piece of shit? Trust me, jail may not pretty... prison though, is like a college dormitory. Would that be fair to the person that got stuck with a casket? No,I don't think so.


It is definitely a case-by-case kind of decision, but I would consider anyone who has intentionally killed an innocent person a candidate for being murdered. Feel free to offer examples for me to decide on.
I definitely support it for murderers--possibly child molesters and rapists.

EDIT: In terms of the method I like boarder's labor camp idea.
QFT And it's definitely a case by case thing. You've got a guy that grabs a young child, molests, and then takes their young life away.Takes away their innocence. His should also be taken away.(Chances are really good it will be by someone on the inside anyway. Win-Win for all) But, what about the young lady who has a cocktail with some friends after work, and on the way home gets in an accident but there are fatalities and it was her fault. She wasn't drunk, but her BAL was over a smidgeon. Basically, that 1 cocktail could put her over limit, and she could be facing life in prison, or worse... Or, add the wife who was physically abused beyond recognition several times and finally snapped in self defense and put an end to the problem? Those cases deserve consideration. The one that makes absolutely no sense to me is when someone is given 2 life sentences for their crime, and they're 46 years old...WTF??? How did this asshole get an extra life? And why should we pay for it?



I've read a couple of stories online that in my mind justified murder but I think locking them away with no contact with the outside world except food and an occasional shower for the rest of their lives is worse.
Make that 3 meals a day, daily showers, care packages from home, TV's in their cell, and free medical care. Bonus for those going to school or other activities on the campus.Is it fair that the innocent victim only gets a lousy box?

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 01:56 AM
EDIT: In terms of the method I like boarder's labor camp idea.

Credit to Sir Thomas Moore. I tweaked his version from Utopia and the idea that common criminals should earn their way back into society and given the tools necessary to not have to rely on crime as a means for survival. Don't recall what he said about capitol punishment although I'm pretty sure he was against it on the grounds that in his utopian society there would be no need for killing, hence, no need for capital punishment. But killing people for stealing bread? Madness. Ironically, these ideas and Utopia got him beheaded for dissent against the crown.

sonofhal
10-30-2009, 02:29 AM
Beheading only became popular over here due to a shortage of soccer balls for around 700 years.

Somewhat Damaged
10-30-2009, 05:44 AM
Oh, you British and your footie.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 06:49 AM
Some people need to be removed from society & existence asap.

http://www.spyonspy.net/pictures/nazi-death-camp.jpg


Rot in a cell on my dollar for something you did? Methinks not.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/files/2009/08/mrburns.jpg

moomoo
10-30-2009, 07:04 AM
Passionate, fiery, and sweet revenge is justification.


Death penalty = awesome.
Wish they would just do it in a more cruel, slow, painful way.

JebusLives
10-30-2009, 07:11 AM
Murder is justified when it is absolutely necessary to avoid another murder (ie self defense, defense of an innocent). I'm also okay with early-term abortions personally, and defend a woman's right to have an abortion through the end of pregnancy (but I wouldn't personnally be okay with it).

The death penalty is simply wrong. You can't convict someone of murder (because murder is bad) and then murder them for it. Makes no sense at all.

I fully support the murder of Jack Johnson. Still bitter.

moomoo
10-30-2009, 07:15 AM
Murder is justified when it is absolutely necessary to avoid another murder (ie self defense, defense of an innocent). I'm also okay with early-term abortions personally, and defend a woman's right to have an abortion through the end of pregnancy (but I wouldn't personnally be okay with it). I'm also okay with murder in the form of passionate, fiery, sweet revenge.

I feel you on that last one man...

locachica73
10-30-2009, 07:47 AM
As a parent I can tell you that there is nothing like the rage you feel when someone hurts your child purposely. I am a pretty passive person, I am from Oregon, tree huggin hippie at heart. But when it comes to my children it's just different. I would push the buttons myself if I could.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 09:30 AM
I am against the death penalty in any and all cases. (yay I agree with MP on something)

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 09:32 AM
We need some fresh controversy. What I want to know is: according to your personal moral code, under what circumstances is killing another human being acceptable?

people like Randy make me believe in murder

HowToDisappear
10-30-2009, 09:36 AM
I am also opposed to the death penalty in all cases.




That being said, if anyone were to do harm to my daughters, I would reach down their throats and rip their hearts out with my bare hands without a moment's hesitation.

JustSteve
10-30-2009, 09:41 AM
the thoughts that go through my head when thinking what i would do to someone who hurt my child are so extreme that i can actually find myself getting angry right now, haha...

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 09:43 AM
I believe that one has to defend and protect one's family, of course.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 09:44 AM
http://folks.harbornet.com/mikeandlyss/free_candy.jpg

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 09:51 AM
Revenge-killing is just going to hurt the revenge-killer more and not really assuage the pain of having dead family member. Not to say I wouldn't do it. I do have some crazy rage issues. I just don't think it's right to kill.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 09:56 AM
The death penalty question was something I didnt much think about until I moved abroad. Man I remember some heated discussions in highschool.. after much deliberation and thought I leaned towards the anti death penalty side. as seen in my glorious (haha) senior project-

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/forzapalermo04/DSCN0451.jpg

man has right to live and this must be respected. lol i knew very little of the language and wasnt expected to do much..at that time.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 10:02 AM
A man has a right to live, but what about everyone else’s rights? I think that if a person is so ready and willing to take other people’s rights from them then they forfeit their own. I believe if punishments were more strict then people would think harder before committing horrible crimes against other human beings. And I place rape and molestation right up there with murder because you are essentially killing another human beings spirit.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 10:04 AM
Credit to Sir Thomas Moore.

I actually changed my mind...


Actually now that I think about it some sort of Gladiator competition for violent criminals would be entertaining and effective.

...I think we should pit murderers against each other in a Gladiator-style fight to the death for our entertainment and possibly profit. Though we would have to avoid a "Death Race" situation where ambitious wardens would frame potentially high profile fighters for murder to get them into the competition.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
The death penalty does not really act as a deterrent to crime.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:09 AM
I actually changed my mind...



...I think we should pit murderers against each other in a Gladiator-style fight to the death for our entertainment and possibly profit. Though we would have to avoid a "Death Race" situation where ambitious wardens would frame potentially high profile fighters for murder to get them into the competition.

http://arterialspray.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/runningman.jpg

disgustipated
10-30-2009, 10:10 AM
that reference has already been made.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:11 AM
A man has a right to live, but what about everyone else’s rights? I think that if a person is so ready and willing to take other people’s rights from them then they forfeit their own. I believe if punishments were more strict then people would think harder before committing horrible crimes against other human beings. And I place rape and molestation right up there with murder because you are essentially killing another human beings spirit.

I believe that violent beat downs are good for criminals and restriction of rights... but the prison system is spiraling out of control. Ostracism to one of the poles is another option. I hear polar bears cant find food bc of melting ice caps...

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:12 AM
that reference has already been made.

thank you suprefan jr. i must have missed that. 8^( sad face

TomAz
10-30-2009, 10:14 AM
Patrick this thread was a noble attempt to provoke intelligent, thoughtful debate. Instead we get a bunch of barbarian wanna-bes for whom life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode.

obzen
10-30-2009, 10:15 AM
PUNISHMENT FOR THE CRIMINALS COMES TO COACHELLA!!!
http://www.fearandloafing.com/adventures/images/potty/scrub.jpg

disgustipated
10-30-2009, 10:18 AM
Patrick this thread was a noble attempt to provoke intelligent, thoughtful debate. Instead we get a bunch of barbarian wanna-bes for whom life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode.

says the guy whos only contribution was this...


http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/files/2009/08/mrburns.jpg

and this...

http://folks.harbornet.com/mikeandlyss/free_candy.jpg



both made me laugh, btw. In a mediocre sitcom kinda way

TomAz
10-30-2009, 10:26 AM
My photo posts were far more thoughtful and insightful than just about anything else in this thread.

Woozel said some people don't deserve to live. I posted concentration camp detainees as an example of one group of people that a government once thought exactly that about. He said he didn't want to pay for incarceration. I posted a picture of Mr Burns as another greedy bastard who would have the same opinion.

Deciding who gets to live and who gets to die should not be up to the state.

Paying for prisons and jails is part of the price of maintaining a civilized society.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Patrick this thread was a noble attempt to provoke intelligent, thoughtful debate. Instead we get a bunch of barbarian wanna-bes for whom life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode.

look at your signature. that is the kind of shit that is posted around here. I hardly take anything on this board seriously, besides Sbessio's insane love of the Killers.

Save your intelligence, nobility and thoughtfulness for your real life encounters and cut this holier than thou act. We all have our thoughts and opinions on this extremely controversial topic; maybe some of us express them better outside of music festival message boards.

'life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode' I find humour in humanity's struggle to justify what is right and what is wrong.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 10:31 AM
Deciding who gets to live and who gets to die should not be up to the state.


Tom, I respect that opinion, but I believe that punishment for the most heinous of crimes should be so severe that even sociopaths are afraid to harm innocent people. Do you have a better option than a death fight?

TomAz
10-30-2009, 10:34 AM
Sociopaths are too stupid or too disconnected or too crazy to be fearful. The whole notion of capital punishment as a deterrent is silly in this respect. Anyone who is in a position of considering killing another person isn't going to stop and say "oh, wait, if I do this, then I might be caught, tried, convicted, and executed"

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:34 AM
civilized society.



http://www.pdegraaf.com/articles/images/sheriff.bmp

Are you two buddies?

TomAz
10-30-2009, 10:36 AM
We all have our thoughts and opinions on this extremely controversial topic; maybe some of us express them better outside of music festival message boards.

Or maybe some of you are slow on the uptake.


Are you two buddies?

QED

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:38 AM
Sociopaths are too stupid or too disconnected or too crazy to be fearful. The whole notion of capital punishment as a deterrent is silly in this respect. Anyone who is in a position of considering killing another person isn't going to stop and say "oh, wait, if I do this, then I might be caught, tried, convicted, and executed"

agreed.

I wonder how a murderer or rapists would respond when asked what punishment they deserve.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Or maybe some of you are slow on the uptake.



Or maybe you're just too high and mighty for your own good, old man. Instead of spreading your apparent knowledge you're poo pooing us for..what? not taking this seriously?

get your head out of your ass and share. im all ears..hrm...eyes

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 10:43 AM
Sociopaths are too stupid or too disconnected or too crazy to be fearful.

I agree that they may be too disconnected.



The whole notion of capital punishment as a deterrent is silly in this respect. Anyone who is in a position of considering killing another person isn't going to stop and say "oh, wait, if I do this, then I might be caught, tried, convicted, and executed"

How do you know this?

JustSteve
10-30-2009, 10:50 AM
look at your signature. that is the kind of shit that is posted around here. I hardly take anything on this board seriously, besides Sbessio's insane love of the Killers.

Save your intelligence, nobility and thoughtfulness for your real life encounters and cut this holier than thou act. We all have our thoughts and opinions on this extremely controversial topic; maybe some of us express them better outside of music festival message boards.

'life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode' I find humour in humanity's struggle to justify what is right and what is wrong.

don't talk to your elders like that. :)

Somewhat Damaged
10-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Sociopaths are too stupid or too disconnected or too crazy to be fearful. The whole notion of capital punishment as a deterrent is silly in this respect. Anyone who is in a position of considering killing another person isn't going to stop and say "oh, wait, if I do this, then I might be caught, tried, convicted, and executed"

So what about what I said, about the death penalty being employed to prevent future crimes (even those that could only be committed in prison) by sociopaths? Would you just advocate permanent solitary confinement for them?

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 10:57 AM
don't talk to your elders like that. :)

haha. i do respect Tom's opinions on music and other matters, just wasnt expecting to be harangued for trying to be humorous (epic fail on my part).

besides, people do get heated about complex matters such as "justified murder"

captncrzy
10-30-2009, 11:00 AM
look at your signature. that is the kind of shit that is posted around here. I hardly take anything on this board seriously, besides Sbessio's insane love of the Killers.

Save your intelligence, nobility and thoughtfulness for your real life encounters and cut this holier than thou act. We all have our thoughts and opinions on this extremely controversial topic; maybe some of us express them better outside of music festival message boards.

'life is just one long mediocre sitcom episode' I find humour in humanity's struggle to justify what is right and what is wrong.

So you can only have non-serious conversations here? Every message board has a "lounge" that various topics regarding everything but the original message board topic can be discussed.

Stop being douchey for the sake of doucheyness; you're an intelligent enough guy-why troll when you can state your opinion?


I agree with the idea of the death penalty but find the system that does the determining and executing too flawed to warrant allowing it to continue. What are the guidelines? Who draws the line? Story of two men-both kill someone. One gets the death penalty and one gets out in 20 years. Same end result, two different verdicts. Who lives and who dies shouldn't boil down to an American Idol-style decision.

Like Steve said, if anyone did something heinous to my child, I'd kill them with my bare hands without even considering the ramifications.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 11:02 AM
Sociopaths are too stupid or too disconnected or too crazy to be fearful. The whole notion of capital punishment as a deterrent is silly in this respect. Anyone who is in a position of considering killing another person isn't going to stop and say "oh, wait, if I do this, then I might be caught, tried, convicted, and executed"

I just finished "Freakonomics" and there is a section about crime. It went into why the national crime rate dipped so suddenly in the 90's. Linking Roe v. Wade to the sudden dip was especially interesting to me. And it makes sense.

It also touched on certain things that people attribute a reduction in crime to, but those things may not necessarily have much of an impact. The death penalty was mentioned and I believe the finding was that it is not actually much of a deterrent. The authors compared crime statistics in states that use capital punishment to states that don't. I think they also compared stats within the states themselves. Before capital punishment vs after capital punishment. It was pretty interesting.

I know there are tons of variables for this type of study. The people who did this study controlled for certain things, but I can't remember what off the top of my head. That probably wasn't much help to you, it's good food for thought. I'm not sure if the death penalty is as much of a crime deterrent as many people are led to believe.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 11:05 AM
So you can only have non-serious conversations here? Every message board has a "lounge" that various topics regarding everything but the original message board topic can be discussed.

Stop being douchey for the sake of doucheyness; you're an intelligent enough guy-why troll when you can state your opinion?

It's been stated in brief. And if you'd like a real life conversation join me at the buffet and we can hash it out.

8^)

captncrzy
10-30-2009, 11:07 AM
Get your ass back to Tucson then.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 11:09 AM
I'm not sure if the death penalty is as much of a crime deterrent as many people are led to believe.

I'm looking at it from the perspective that if the death penalty process was more effective there would eventually be no criminals left.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 11:12 AM
I'm looking at it from the perspective that if the death penalty process was more effective there would eventually be no crinminals left.

I can actually see your train of thought, and I agree with it to a certain extent. It would maybe do a good job with stopping crime at the hands of repeat offenders. But I don't think the death penalty really addresses the source of the problem, which is poverty (in my opinion).

menikmati
10-30-2009, 11:14 AM
The death penalty does not really act as a deterrent to crime.

Because it takes 30 fucking years to act on it. It's a joke. It needs to revamped and used properly.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Poverty is definitely one of the major sources of the problem.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 11:21 AM
Poverty is definitely one of the major sources of the problem.

Yup. And it looked like my post was inferring that poverty is the only source of crime, which I don't find to be true. But I think it's the biggest cause.

That's why the Roe v. Wade theory interested me. The theory is that most abortions occur in situations of poverty. So the child who would've grown up in poverty and, conceivably, would've been more likely to end up as a criminal just ended up not existing. The pool of potential criminals just went down at the point which those people would've been in their late teens and early 20's (the ages thought to be the "prime" for criminal activity).

So if you're pro life then you're pro crime*.




*kidding....kind of.

MantisMel
10-30-2009, 11:25 AM
I'm looking at it from the perspective that if the death penalty process was more effective there would eventually be no criminals left.

Not just that, but you would think criminals would try harder at not getting caught in the first place. What ever happened to the good 'ol fashioned torture method of crime deterrent. Heretic Fork, The Pillory, Judas Cradle or even the Spanish Tickler?!

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 11:40 AM
My photo posts were far more thoughtful and insightful than just about anything else in this thread.
Woozel said some people don't deserve to live. I posted concentration camp detainees as an example of one group of people that a government once thought exactly that about. He said he didn't want to pay for incarceration. I posted a picture of Mr Burns as another greedy bastard who would have the same opinion.

Deciding who gets to live and who gets to die should not be up to the state.

Paying for prisons and jails is part of the price of maintaining a civilized society.
Sorry Tom, but I've got you beat in insight, pal, and trust me, the most heinous of crimes are not committed with any guilt, what makes you think the criminal is gonna feel any while sitting there eating those 3 solid meals a day? As far as they're concerned, they are living free. No more of societies bullshit, a place to sleep, food, and a good book to read.
If you're gonna insist they remain alive after killing 2-3 people cold blooded, then maybe the states need to devise a system that contains them all together without the bars between them and let them try to survive in their own little society of killers. Chances are pretty good you wouldn't need executions, they would take care of themselves in that department.

And, sorry, but your statement about maintaining a civilized society by paying for prisons and jails? Maybe for your drug offenders or thieves. They may have something to offer society if they get rehabilitated. Unfortunately, between the over crowding already, and then those that will feed off the system until they die, that rehabilitation remains out of financial reach...

TomAz
10-30-2009, 11:44 AM
How do you know this?


I just finished "Freakonomics" and there is a section about crime. It went into why the national crime rate dipped so suddenly in the 90's. Linking Roe v. Wade to the sudden dip was especially interesting to me. And it makes sense.

It also touched on certain things that people attribute a reduction in crime to, but those things may not necessarily have much of an impact. The death penalty was mentioned and I believe the finding was that it is not actually much of a deterrent. The authors compared crime statistics in states that use capital punishment to states that don't. I think they also compared stats within the states themselves. Before capital punishment vs after capital punishment. It was pretty interesting.



...

TomAz
10-30-2009, 11:53 AM
Because it takes 30 fucking years to act on it. It's a joke. It needs to revamped and used properly.


Poverty is definitely one of the major sources of the problem.

sgpa7wEAz7I

SoulDischarge
10-30-2009, 11:55 AM
I don't know Tom. Tensions are starting to rise a bit, thanks in no small part to you.

Another situation. What about dangerous dictators? Do you agree with Saddam Hussein's execution? For people who don't believe in the death sentence, do you think Hitler should have been executed had he been caught alive?

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 11:55 AM
Re: The death penalty as a deterrent.

Desperate people don't often think about consequences. I think Tom may have the right mindset with this.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 11:58 AM
This is slightly off subject, but I find it amusing that those posting the most here right now won't respond to what I have had to say, yet are so quick to point out the fact they think I'm stupid or retarded everywhere else across this message board. Lame.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 11:58 AM
I didn't respond to what you had to say cuz I couldn't figure out what point you were trying to make.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 12:01 PM
This is slightly off subject, but I find it amusing that those posting the most here right now won't respond to what I have had to say, yet are so quick to point out the fact they think I'm stupid or retarded everywhere else across this message board. Lame.

Please let the adults discuss this.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 12:01 PM
[QUOTE=TomAz;1397417]I didn't respond to what you had to say cuz I couldn't figure out what point you were trying to make.[/QUOTE
Well, of course you couldn't. It didn't agree with yours, that's why.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:03 PM
Unfortunately there is no cure for evil. Now if that evil is a world leader who didn't actually pull the trigger himself or some nut job who shoots innocent people with a high powered rifle off the top of a building is beside the point if you ask me. Mass murderers and rapists may not think of the consequences now because the consequences aren't that severe, but if those consequences became more severe they might stop and think about it. And if there is no chance for rehabilitation then why keep them alive?

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 12:04 PM
Please let the adults discuss this.
The same kind of adults who make up the death penalty laws we have now as opposed to someone who's actually been a part of that screwed up system...Allright, have at it kids!

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 12:04 PM
I don't think they should be killed. There is the argument "what if they escape?" but I still don't think anyone should be executed for their crimes.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 12:04 PM
Here let me respond, bit by bit.

Sorry Tom, but I've got you beat in insight, pal, and trust me, the most heinous of crimes are not committed with any guilt, what makes you think the criminal is gonna feel any while sitting there eating those 3 solid meals a day?
I think the point you are making is that since you served time you have greater insight into the criminal mindset. Ok... I might buy that.. but then..

As far as they're concerned, they are living free. No more of societies bullshit, a place to sleep, food, and a good book to read.

ok... so then why do they go to the parole board and try to get their sentences reduced?

If you're gonna insist they remain alive after killing 2-3 people cold blooded

'insist that they remain alive' is loaded phrasing. I am going to insist that the state not also commit cold blooded murder.


, then maybe the states need to devise a system that contains them all together without the bars between them and let them try to survive in their own little society of killers. Chances are pretty good you wouldn't need executions, they would take care of themselves in that department.

this is nonsense. this is barbarism.

And, sorry, but your statement about maintaining a civilized society by paying for prisons and jails? Maybe for your drug offenders or thieves. They may have something to offer society if they get rehabilitated. Unfortunately, between the over crowding already, and then those that will feed off the system until they die, that rehabilitation remains out of financial reach...

I am not talking about rehabilitation. I am talking about punishment. This is why I don't understand what your point is.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:05 PM
So if you're pro life then you're pro crime*.

*kidding....kind of.

Abortion is murder, so I guess I'm choosing the lesser of two crimes.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:07 PM
I don't know Tom. Tensions are starting to rise a bit, thanks in no small part to you.

Another situation. What about dangerous dictators? Do you agree with Saddam Hussein's execution? For people who don't believe in the death sentence, do you think Hitler should have been executed had he been caught alive?

Nope. I don't believe in the death sentence.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:08 PM
I don't think they should be killed. There is the argument "what if they escape?" but I still don't think anyone should be executed for their crimes.

If someone raped and murdered people over and over but somehow got released on a technicality or escaped only to go out and rape and murder someone you know and love would you feel the same?

TomAz
10-30-2009, 12:10 PM
If someone raped and murdered people over and over but somehow got released on a technicality or escaped only to go out and rape and murder someone you know and love would you feel the same?

If they 'got released on a technicality' then they aren't gonna get executed anyway.

And it really bugs me how people dismiss orderly legal proceedings as 'technicalities'. These 'technicalities' are fundamental provisions in the US Constitution to prevent governmental abuse of power. The government has to prove its case abiding by the rules of evidence.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 12:11 PM
Abortion is murder, so I guess I'm choosing the lesser of two crimes.

How many lives is one fetus worth to you? If we aborted one fetus to theoretically save...50 lives, would you be down with that?

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 12:14 PM
Another situation. What about dangerous dictators? Do you agree with Saddam Hussein's execution? For people who don't believe in the death sentence, do you think Hitler should have been executed had he been caught alive?

I'd still say no think of how much we could learn from them being kept alive

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:16 PM
If they 'got released on a technicality' then they aren't gonna get executed anyway.

Damnit, I hate when you make so much damn sense.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:25 PM
Sorry, Brokendoll, I wasn't up at 2 in the morning so I missed your questions.


So, when an innocent 7 yr. old child disappears and is found dead after being molested, you feel the person responsible should be able to live on? Or, the guy who robs and kills an elderly couple...he should be able to live on and have shelter, meals, and medical care?

He's living on without freedom. That is the most a government should be able to take from someone as punishment for a crime - his freedom. The crime's already been committed; there's nothing positive to gain by killing him that you can't gain by jailing him until he dies naturally.


Do you think that inmate thought about the costs of his final actions before he did them? Did he consider the value of someone's life? No, probably not. So why should we worry about supporting the piece of shit? Trust me, jail may not pretty... prison though, is like a college dormitory. Would that be fair to the person that got stuck with a casket? No,I don't think so.

Supporting? Not exactly. We wouldn't need jail if we could punish people by death for any crime, so jail is there because it's our best way of punishing people humanely. I don't think prison should be like a college dormitory - that's something that has surely been pushed by misguided human-rights activists over the years.

It's not about what's fair to the victim. The victim should not be out for revenge (or, assuming he's dead, should not be out and about). Society is not responsible for enacting revenge on the behalf of its citizens; it is responsible for bettering itself, which in this case is best accomplished by punishments fitting crimes.


The one that makes absolutely no sense to me is when someone is given 2 life sentences for their crime, and they're 46 years old...WTF??? How did this asshole get an extra life? And why should we pay for it?

I thought the whole point of the multiple life sentence thing was just in case the criminal got his first life sentence shortened or something the second life sentence would take effect.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:29 PM
How many lives is one fetus worth to you? If we aborted one fetus to theoretically save...50 lives, would you be down with that?

You're posing a silly scenario without any context, so how can I answer the question? The simple answer to the first question is 1 life, because that's how many lives it is. The second question is impossible to answer without background. I believe we live in a world where no one has to kill a fetus to save 50 other lives. How are those 50 lives being taken? Why is it necessary to kill an unborn to stop that from happening?

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:35 PM
And I place rape and molestation right up there with murder because you are essentially killing another human beings spirit.

What the hell does this mean?

edit: This is easy: Would you rather be raped or murdered?

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 12:38 PM
As far as they're concerned, they are living free. No more of societies bullshit, a place to sleep, food, and a good book to read.


ok... so then why do they go to the parole board and try to get their sentences reduced?
When a crime is committed, Tom, the sentence is their punishment. Unfortunately, there is so much leeway and reasonings behind the sentence that 25 to life becomes the punishment. What that basically means is no matter what, no parole is considered until atleast the 25 years is completed. Factor in that out of that 25 years, prisoners get credit for 1/2 time. That now means that after 12 years of punishment, they are entitled to appeal the original descision based upon their behavior and prison record.
I met women who showed me pictures of what their husbands had done to them with physical abuse over the years, and finally in order to save their own lives, they took matters into their own hands. They murdered before they got murdered you could say. They have a chance of parole.

But, here, we're talking about the motherfucker that goes out, grabs an innocent child and murders them for his own sadistic needs, or the husband who feels a need to dispose of his wife for the mistress, and dumps her under the SF Bay Bridge. Someone who takes another's life for the benefit of their own deserves to live? (And I wasn't talking about self defense there.)

If you're gonna insist they remain alive after killing 2-3 people cold blooded


'insist that they remain alive' is loaded phrasing. I am going to insist that the state not also commit cold blooded murder.
Oh, so feeding, clothing and housing at the cost of taxpayers isn't alive? It certainly isn't punishment. Atleast not like the punishment the victim got for being innocent.

, then maybe the states need to devise a system that contains them all together without the bars between them and let them try to survive in their own little society of killers. Chances are pretty good you wouldn't need executions, they would take care of themselves in that department.


this is nonsense. this is barbarism.
Geez, Tom. And murdering an innocent victim isn't barbaric? Atleast together the criminals would now live in a world like they've made us live in out here in society. Even that doesn't seem fair to you?

And, sorry, but your statement about maintaining a civilized society by paying for prisons and jails? Maybe for your drug offenders or thieves. They may have something to offer society if they get rehabilitated. Unfortunately, between the over crowding already, and then those that will feed off the system until they die, that rehabilitation remains out of financial reach...

I am not talking about rehabilitation. I am talking about punishment. This is why I don't understand what your point is.
Why waste the money punishing someone who has absolutely no chance of ever being a part of society, if you don't atleast offer the option of rehabilitation as well?

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:39 PM
What the hell does this mean?

People who have been violently raped or who were continually molested as children, usually by someone they trusted, don't ever really recover from that abuse. It is essentially the same as murder in my oppinion.

And in response to the edit... honestly, I would rather not have to deal with the years of mental anguish the rape would create so I would rather be dead.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 12:39 PM
He's living on without freedom. That is the most a government should be able to take from someone as punishment for a crime - his freedom. The crime's already been committed; there's nothing positive to gain by killing him that you can't gain by jailing him until he dies naturally.



Supporting? Not exactly. We wouldn't need jail if we could punish people by death for any crime, so jail is there because it's our best way of punishing people humanely. I don't think prison should be like a college dormitory - that's something that has surely been pushed by misguided human-rights activists over the years.

It's not about what's fair to the victim. The victim should not be out for revenge (or, assuming he's dead, should not be out and about). Society is not responsible for enacting revenge on the behalf of its citizens; it is responsible for bettering itself, which in this case is best accomplished by punishments fitting crimes.



I thought the whole point of the multiple life sentence thing was just in case the criminal got his first life sentence shortened or something the second life sentence would take effect.

this.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 12:40 PM
Prison is anything but a college dormitory. 25 years in prison vs. death, I'd take death.

A television, a book, and those 3 meals a day (btw if you ever had even 1 of these meals you'd sing a different tune) is hardly the day spa you make it out to be

So why give them the easier of the options?

LooseAtTheZoo
10-30-2009, 12:44 PM
How much time did BD serve?

TomAz
10-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Why waste the money punishing someone who has absolutely no chance of ever being a part of society, if you don't atleast offer the option of rehabilitation as well?

Rehabilitation would be good, I agree, and is something worth working toward. But people are not incarcerated in order to be rehabilitated. They are incarcerated to be separated from society. This is not a 'waste' of money. Separating the bad guys is money very well spent, in my opinion.

I object to killing the bad guys on two points:

- killing a murderer makes us no better than the murderer.

- I am not so confident in the judicial system's ability to discern guilt from innocence that I would be willing to bet my own or anyone else's life on it. The room for error is way too great.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:47 PM
Prison is anything but a college dormitory. 25 years in prison vs. death, I'd take death.

A television, a book, and those 3 meals a day (btw if you ever had even 1 of these meals you'd sing a different tune) is hardly the day spa you make it out to be

So why give them the easier of the options?

For some the food, roof over the head, television and book are more than what they are use to.

LooseAtTheZoo
10-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Why can't I find BDs felony story thread? I never read that one back in the day...

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 12:50 PM
true Loca but to call it a college dormitory is just stupid

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 12:51 PM
People who have been violently raped or who were continually molested as children, usually by someone they trusted, don't ever really recover from that abuse. It is essentially the same as murder in my oppinion.

And in response to the edit... honestly, I would rather not have to deal with the years of mental anguish the rape would create so I would rather be dead.

Ok. I don't know how you came to that opinion. I'm sure rape is a horrible experience, as is amputation or blindness, but I can't imagine that you'd honestly rather die, unless you don't think highly of your own life. I think you'd change your mind if the attacker was in the room right now posing the question.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Why can't I find BDs felony story thread? I never read that one back in the day...

http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23267&

Condensed (http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23295&)

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Sorry, Brokendoll, I wasn't up at 2 in the morning so I missed your questions.



He's living on without freedom. That is the most a government should be able to take from someone as punishment for a crime - his freedom. The crime's already been committed; there's nothing positive to gain by killing him that you can't gain by jailing him until he dies naturally.



Supporting? Not exactly. We wouldn't need jail if we could punish people by death for any crime, so jail is there because it's our best way of punishing people humanely. I don't think prison should be like a college dormitory - that's something that has surely been pushed by misguided human-rights activists over the years.

It's not about what's fair to the victim. The victim should not be out for revenge (or, assuming he's dead, should not be out and about). Society is not responsible for enacting revenge on the behalf of its citizens; it is responsible for bettering itself, which in this case is best accomplished by punishments fitting crimes.



I thought the whole point of the multiple life sentence thing was just in case the criminal got his first life sentence shortened or something the second life sentence would take effect.
So the government is only allowed to take freedom away as a punishment, and the criminal gets to take a life away? Wow.
BTW...Prison probably shouldn't be like a college campus, but guess what? It is. And know why? Because not only have the human rights activists fought for that, they've also backed the no death penalty. So, go ahead and continue supporting those heinous killers with life sentences so that those that can be rehabilitated won't be because of funds. Then you can send them back out to do it again because they never got help...Yeah, that makes sense for the future...

TomAz
10-30-2009, 12:54 PM
BD I don't dispute your experience with prison. I do dispute your knowledge of college campuses, however.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 12:55 PM
What the hell does this mean?

edit: This is easy: Would you rather be raped or murdered?
I'm sorry, but I was gonna try to avoid saying this...




IDIOT.

captncrzy
10-30-2009, 12:55 PM
Ok. I don't know how you came to that opinion. I'm sure rape is a horrible experience, as is amputation or blindness, but I can't imagine that you'd honestly rather die, unless you don't think highly of your own life. I think you'd change your mind if the attacker was in the room right now posing the question.

Aren't you a man?

locachica73
10-30-2009, 12:56 PM
Ok. I don't know how you came to that opinion. I'm sure rape is a horrible experience, as is amputation or blindness, but I can't imagine that you'd honestly rather die, unless you don't think highly of your own life. I think you'd change your mind if the attacker was in the room right now posing the question.

You might be right, I might change my mind if I were given the choice. But knowing survivors of rape and sexual abuse I do know that it isn't much of a life to be afraid to be touched, afraid to be alone, afraid of the dark and basically feeling dead inside for years. I think highly of my own life, I am a good person and live life to the fullest, but it would no longer be my life after that. I would be a completely different person.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 12:57 PM
Men can't be raped?

faxman75
10-30-2009, 01:05 PM
This just came across my desk at work. This guy was charged with "posession of marijuna for sale". This is his 2nd felony. The last one was the exact same charge in San Diego.

Sentence=9.25 years in prison.

Another caes I just filed away was 2nd degree murder. Sentence= 5 years in prison.

Awesome.

obzen
10-30-2009, 01:08 PM
BD I don't dispute your experience with prison. I do dispute your knowledge of college campuses, however.

Oh shit!

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:08 PM
So the government is only allowed to take freedom away as a punishment, and the criminal gets to take a life away? Wow.

What kind of logic is this? The government is not a person. The government is not above people. Criminals are people and have natural freewill. The government is not and does not. Like Tom says, if we are killing criminals because murder is bad, how is government-sponsored revenge murder of that criminal justified?


BTW...Prison probably shouldn't be like a college campus, but guess what? It is. And know why? Because not only have the human rights activists fought for that, they've also backed the no death penalty. So, go ahead and continue supporting those heinous killers with life sentences so that those that can be rehabilitated won't be because of funds. Then you can send them back out to do it again because they never got help...Yeah, that makes sense for the future...

Our prison may be like college dorms, but it was adapted that way and can be adapted back. Send back people with life sentences? What are you talking about? The idea behind a life sentence is they can't get out and do it again.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:08 PM
You might be right, I might change my mind if I were given the choice. But knowing survivors of rape and sexual abuse I do know that it isn't much of a life to be afraid to be touched, afraid to be alone, afraid of the dark and basically feeling dead inside for years. I think highly of my own life, I am a good person and live life to the fullest, but it would no longer be my life after that. I would be a completely different person.

The odds of you living a happy and healthy life after being raped are not encouraging, but there's still a shot. The odds of you living a happy and healthy life after dying are 0%.

I find it very hard to believe that you'd rather not be alive than be alive and have to overcome major obstacles.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:10 PM
I'm sorry, but I was gonna try to avoid saying this...




IDIOT.

Way to throw any respect/intelligent discussion out the window.

I think it's a valid question and relevant to the topic. If you would rather experience one than the other, then they are not equal crimes. This is very simple. I do not even know how someone can equate "killing one's spirit" with killing the person himself.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Prison is anything but a college dormitory. 25 years in prison vs. death, I'd take death.

A television, a book, and those 3 meals a day (btw if you ever had even 1 of these meals you'd sing a different tune) is hardly the day spa you make it out to be

So why give them the easier of the options?
stickbutt, how much time have you done in prison? Not jail. Prison?


How much time did BD serve?
I was given an 8 year sentence and would have had to serve 4 years. But due to our wonderful and dishonest legal system VS the truth, I won my appeal after serving 2 1/2 years. And, maybe "college dormitory" wasn't the right word to use. You're all obviously college educated, whereas I am not. But I can assure you the only thing those prisoners can't have is their freedom. They can get drugs, food from the outside sent in, an education if they want, and better rehabilitation if the state could offer more of it. No, they're not throwing frat parties like you guys, but they're certainly not suffering, believe that. Matter of fact, try going without insurnace for medical care out here and see just how healthy you stay. Snifle once in there and complain about it and you're on the way to the nurses office!


Rehabilitation would be good, I agree, and is something worth working toward. But people are not incarcerated in order to be rehabilitated. They are incarcerated to be separated from society. This is not a 'waste' of money. Separating the bad guys is money very well spent, in my opinion.

I object to killing the bad guys on two points:

- killing a murderer makes us no better than the murderer.

- I am not so confident in the judicial system's ability to discern guilt from innocence that I would be willing to bet my own or anyone else's life on it. The room for error is way too great.
Tom, keeping someone alive who is obviously never getting out is absurd. You may as well save money and get a fucking pet rock if you want to toss your change around.


For some the food, roof over the head, television and book are more than what they are use to.
No shit. And so many return over and over again for that. It's like, go do some dope, get caught, go see your friends, get released.....yada,yada,yada...


Ok. I don't know how you came to that opinion. I'm sure rape is a horrible experience, as is amputation or blindness, but I can't imagine that you'd honestly rather die, unless you don't think highly of your own life. I think you'd change your mind if the attacker was in the room right now posing the question.
I think you would too. Unfortunately, the attacker won't give you that option and sit to discuss it.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:13 PM
The odds of you living a happy and healthy life after being raped are not encouraging, but there's still a shot. The odds of you living a happy and healthy life after dying are 0%.

I find it very hard to believe that you'd rather not be alive than be alive and have to overcome major obstacles.

The point I was really trying to make is that the punishment for rape and molestation should be the same as murder because you are essentially taking away as much from a person as you would taking thier life. Then the question was asked if I would rather be dead than a survivor of rape. Thinking about that, and knowing what I have been through in the past, at this point I would honestly say I would not want to go through "surviving". It is a long rough road, trust me.

obzen
10-30-2009, 01:14 PM
Prison is not like College,I can't believe this is even being discussed.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:16 PM
You might be right, I might change my mind if I were given the choice. But knowing survivors of rape and sexual abuse I do know that it isn't much of a life to be afraid to be touched, afraid to be alone, afraid of the dark and basically feeling dead inside for years. I think highly of my own life, I am a good person and live life to the fullest, but it would no longer be my life after that. I would be a completely different person.

I know a couple rape victims myself (unfortunately, I think we all do whether we know it or not) and the one I am closer to has many deep-seated emotional problems including bipolar disorder (or so they say). She has tried suicide a few times and has done her share of drugs and alcohol. She has "felt dead inside" for as long as I've known her. She's still here, and when she's in a stable state she usually seems glad to be here. She had a cancer scare once and was scared shitless of death, even though she tried to bring it upon herself in the past. I think your mind changes when death truly threatens.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:17 PM
The point I was really trying to make is that the punishment for rape and molestation should be the same as murder because you are essentially taking away as much from a person as you would taking thier life. Then the question was asked if I would rather be dead than a survivor of rape. Thinking about that, and knowing what I have been through in the past, at this point I would honestly say I would not want to go through "surviving". It is a long rough road, trust me.

Something being "essentially" the same just shouldn't cut it when dealing with the law and deciding if somebody should live or die. We have the judicial system in place for many good reasons. And, in that system, "essentially" the same doesn't mean it is the same. The line between the two is very important.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 01:18 PM
stickbutt, how much time have you done in prison? Not jail. Prison?

Me personally, none. A decent number of family members have and I don't know if those west coast prisons are nicer than here in the midwest but my uncle who did the most time (9 years) said he'd rather have gone back to Vietnam than go back to prison. So I assume if Nam was better than prison than you really can't compare that to college.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 01:21 PM
I know a couple rape victims myself (unfortunately, I think we all do whether we know it or not) and the one I am closer to has many deep-seated emotional problems including bipolar disorder (or so they say). She has tried suicide a few times and has done her share of drugs and alcohol. She has "felt dead inside" for as long as I've known her. She's still here, and when she's in a stable state she usually seems glad to be here. She had a cancer scare once and was scared shitless of death, even though she tried to bring it upon herself in the past. I think your mind changes when death truly threatens.
Unfortunately, when death threatens an innocent person, they don't get to change their mind.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:22 PM
I think you would too. Unfortunately, the attacker won't give you that option and sit to discuss it.

You mean you think I'd choose death if the attacker was in the room and asked me? No, I know the value of life and to me, it's more than my asshole and my emotional problems.

But anyway my only point was that one is worse than the other, and taking someone's stability is not the same as taking someone's life.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Was somebody seriously comparing prison to college? Or were they just comparing the lay out of prison cells?(dormitories/pods.)

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:23 PM
Tom, keeping someone alive who is obviously never getting out is absurd. You may as well save money and get a fucking pet rock if you want to toss your change around.

You keep using phrases like "keeping someone alive" as if they were all ventilator dependents. I am talking about "not killing someone" and "keeping them locked up away from the rest of us".

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Unfortunately, when death threatens an innocent person, they don't get to change their mind.

You make very ambiguous statements. I can't tell if you're making a point or just chiming in with what I said. I assume it's the former, but I am having trouble linking it to anything.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:25 PM
Unfortunately, when death threatens an innocent person, they don't get to change their mind.

The standard for the government should be how murderers treat their victims? Shouldn't people with the capacity to be reasonable and think things through exercise those things and not lower themselves to a criminal level?

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, when death threatens an innocent person, they don't get to change their mind.

And this includes wrongful executions.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Something being "essentially" the same just shouldn't cut it when dealing with the law and deciding if somebody should live or die. We have the judicial system in place for many good reasons. And, in that system, "essentially" the same doesn't mean it is the same. The line between the two is very important.

We can agree to disagree. :)

I just find it sad because I know from past experience that child molestation is a very hard crime to prosecute. First off there are thousands of victims that never even come forward because it usually ends up being a family member or family friend, then you have a young child as a witness that is for the most part not that reliable because they usually don't even know what has happened. So these fuckers are allowed to walk around among our children, commiting the same crime over and over. It is not something they will ever "recover" from, they will always have those urges. But because of our "system" and our bleeding hearts these guys will continue ruining lives.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:30 PM
And many of you reference a flawed judicial system that is not harsh enough with the death penalty, yet you expect this same flawed system to not put innocent people to do death. Interesting.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:31 PM
We can agree to disagree. :)

I just find it sad because I know from past experience that child molestation is a very hard crime to prosecute. First off there are thousands of victims that never even come forward because it usually ends up being a family member or family friend, then you have a young child as a witness that is for the most part not that reliable because they usually don't even know what has happened. So these fuckers are allowed to walk around among our children, commiting the same crime over and over. It is not something they will ever "recover" from, they will always have those urges. But because of our "system" and our bleeding hearts these guys will continue ruining lives.

The victim refusing to come forward is not the fault of "bleeding hearts", audra. think.

MantisMel
10-30-2009, 01:31 PM
What the hell does this mean?

edit: This is easy: Would you rather be raped or murdered?

As a female Id rather be murdered then live with a lifetime of emotional dis-stress, a multitude of probable health issues and/or bringing an unwanted bastard child into the world.

The fact is sex offenders and namely child molesters are not likely to be rehabilitated. Statistics show child molesters once released from prison will be likely to molest again.

I don't believe letting someone rot in jail for a sex crime or murder is even fair. You took a or multiple lives, molested or raped people... To me you are a waste of space, a despicable example of a human being and should be put into an incinerator and never exist again.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:34 PM
The victim refusing to come forward is not the fault of "bleeding hearts", audra. think.

Well in a lot of cases it isn't necessarily the victim who chooses not to press charges but the adults in the situation, wanting to keep family secrets a secret, or wives/girlfriends wanting to keep their boyfriends out of jail. I spent some time in group therapy with parents of sexual abuse victems, I had to quit going because there were a lot of mothers who took thier boyfriends sides over their children. I think those women should go to jail as well.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:34 PM
I am not so confident in the judicial system's ability to discern guilt from innocence that I would be willing to bet my own or anyone else's life on it. The room for error is way too great.

None of you bloodthirsty Republicans has bothered to address this point. Therefore I win.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Well in a lot of cases it isn't necessarily the victim who chooses not to press charges but the adults in the situation, wanting to keep family secrets a secret, or wives/girlfriends wanting to keep their boyfriends out of jail. I spent some time in group therapy with parents of sexual abuse victems, I had to quit going because there were a lot of mothers who took thier boyfriends sides over their children. I think those women should go to jail as well.

that still has nothing to do with "bleeding hearts" at least not in the sense that I understand that phrase to mean (a government which is too permissive and 'soft on crime').

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:36 PM
We can agree to disagree. :)

I just find it sad because I know from past experience that child molestation is a very hard crime to prosecute. First off there are thousands of victims that never even come forward because it usually ends up being a family member or family friend, then you have a young child as a witness that is for the most part not that reliable because they usually don't even know what has happened. So these fuckers are allowed to walk around among our children, commiting the same crime over and over. It is not something they will ever "recover" from, they will always have those urges. But because of our "system" and our bleeding hearts these guys will continue ruining lives.

If the victim doesn't come forward then that is not the fault of the system. The law is a fragile thing. We have to be very careful that we don't just put anybody behind bars because they were accused of a crime. Unfortunately, you will get holes in the system and some people get away with things. It's not ideal, but the standards should be reasonably high when talking about prosecution. Especially when the death penalty is involved.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:38 PM
that still has nothing to do with "bleeding hearts" at least not in the sense that I understand that phrase to mean (a government which is too permissive and 'soft on crime').

ok how about emotional attachments? Sorry, damn technicalities.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:38 PM
One name.... OJ Simpson...

We all are more then confident he did it but was let off scott free. Where's you're just and almighty judicial system there?

ummm. what?

I am saying that I do NOT trust the judicial system to get things right.

You offer as rebuttal an example of exactly what I am talking about.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:38 PM
One name.... OJ Simpson...

We all are more then confident he did it but was let off scott free. Where's you're just and almighty judicial system there?

We all are confident that he did it, but how many of us were witnesses. OJ Simpson may or may not be guilty, but you can't put him away because the general public thinks he did it.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:39 PM
So these fuckers are allowed to walk around among our children, commiting the same crime over and over. It is not something they will ever "recover" from, they will always have those urges. But because of our "system" and our bleeding hearts these guys will continue ruining lives.

We have a law that mandates any registered sex offender (a VERY ambiguous term) must display a photo, description and his address on the internet for anyone to see. I think we are plenty tough on sex offenders.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 01:40 PM
Reasonable Doubt; anyone familiar with it?

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 01:41 PM
Me personally, none. A decent number of family members have and I don't know if those west coast prisons are nicer than here in the midwest but my uncle who did the most time (9 years) said he'd rather have gone back to Vietnam than go back to prison. So I assume if Nam was better than prison than you really can't compare that to college.
To be quite honest, I had never been in any trouble or jail until my situation occurred. And maybe I anticipated the same thing you guys seem to think prison is...punishment. The jail system was punishment enough for me, believe that. I was terrified of what prison was gonna be on my way there. Like I said, there were no frat parties and football games, but I wasn't eating off the floor, nor staring at a blank wall with my crime being the only thing on my mind. It's certainly not Hravrd or Yale, but guess what? I feel I got as much education during my time in facing the real world as many of you college kids will ever dream of having.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:42 PM
As a female Id rather be murdered then live with a lifetime of emotional dis-stress, a multitude of probable health issues and/or bringing an unwanted bastard child into the world.

The fact is sex offenders and namely child molesters are not likely to be rehabilitated. Statistics show child molesters once released from prison will be likely to molest again.

I don't believe letting someone rot in jail for a sex crime or murder is even fair. You took a or multiple lives, molested or raped people... To me you are a waste of space, a despicable example of a human being and should be put into an incinerator and never exist again.

So you think death is easier than emotional distress. Why, exactly do you support the death penalty then? Do you not think those in prison go through plenty of emotional distress (despite what BD has said about college dorms)?

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:42 PM
Reasonable Doubt; anyone familiar with it?

Yup. That's the only Jay-Z album I listen to anymore.

And the concept of reasonable doubt is lost on a lot of people. It's there for very good reasons.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:43 PM
Reasonable Doubt; anyone familiar with it?

It's one of his best albums, what about it?

edit: fucker beat me to the uber lame joke

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 01:45 PM
but guess what? I feel I got as much education during my time in facing the real world as many of you college kids will ever dream of having.

So you are saying this was almost a rehabilitation experience? hmmm

Just for the record though women's prisons are generally way nicer than men's. The women's prison here has a bowling alley, a movie theatre, and is across the street from my elementary school I went to and there isn't even a fence.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:47 PM
None of you bloodthirsty Republicans has bothered to address this point. Therefore I win.

I assure you, one of the basic Republican philosophies is precisely what you are arguing - that the government should have as little power as possible and should always be watched. Whether modern-day Republicans hold true to this is another story.

TomAz
10-30-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't think modern day republicans know what they believe anymore. It's all propaganda and rage and stupidity. This is a change that has happened in the last 20 years. Contrast Bush 1 to Bush 2. night and day.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:55 PM
We have a law that mandates any registered sex offender (a VERY ambiguous term) must display a photo, description and his address on the internet for anyone to see. I think we are plenty tough on sex offenders.

Yes, but knowing where a sex offender lives and what he looks like isn't going to stop him from molesting a child. He is free to be in public, around our children, working for companies that have ties to children, I read a story a while back about a man who was a registered sex offender who was working as an assistant coach for little league because the company didn't do a background check. As a parent how would you know that?

I just think that we are way too busy worrying about the rights of the guilty and not enough time worrying about the rights of the innocent.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Yes, you are correct. And Democrats seem to be finally revealing what they've always believed - nanny state here we come.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:56 PM
Republicans want the government to step in when it's convenient for them. Like reversing a 35+-year old Supreme Court ruling or much of the legislation after 9/11.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
uh oh, on to politics... peace out. :)

fatbastard
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
Can we get back to murder?

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
I just think that we are way too busy worrying about the rights of the guilty and not enough time worrying about the rights of the innocent.

It's not about the rights of the guilty, it's more about the rights of the potentially innocent. The "rights" of the guilty are a byproduct of trying to have a fair judicial system. Something of this magnitude is not going to be perfect.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 01:58 PM
Yes, but knowing where a sex offender lives and what he looks like isn't going to stop him from molesting a child. He is free to be in public, around our children, working for companies that have ties to children, I read a story a while back about a man who was a registered sex offender who was working as an assistant coach for little league because the company didn't do a background check. As a parent how would you know that?

Under most circumstances they are not allowed anywhere near children, and if a school doesn't do a background check that's their own incompetence and they should be fired as well.

Also not all sex offenders are child molesters

just sayin

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 02:01 PM
Yes, but knowing where a sex offender lives and what he looks like isn't going to stop him from molesting a child. He is free to be in public, around our children, working for companies that have ties to children, I read a story a while back about a man who was a registered sex offender who was working as an assistant coach for little league because the company didn't do a background check. As a parent how would you know that?

I just think that we are way too busy worrying about the rights of the guilty and not enough time worrying about the rights of the innocent.

Oh yeah - I don't know what the average sentences are for different types of sex offenders, but I assume that they're too light for rapists and too harsh for public nudity.

The rights of the innocent and the guilty are the same once the sentence has been served. I am not sure Megan's Law is constitutional but I have a hunch it isn't. However, I guess you could describe it as part of the sentence, I don't know.

But the important thing is that a punishment is what it is for a reason - no one should be damned for life without a second chance no matter what they've done. If they've done their time they have every right as you and me.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 02:01 PM
FLASHERS.

locachica73
10-30-2009, 02:02 PM
It wasn't a school, just a private company, and yes they were in deep shit.

And that whole law has a few kinks if you ask me. I knew someone who peed on a dumpster and had to register as a sex offender due to public indecency. Crazy.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Same with urinating in public. So I hear anyway.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 02:05 PM
Republicans want the government to step in when it's convenient for them. Like reversing a 35+-year old Supreme Court ruling or much of the legislation after 9/11.

Meh. Both sides are equally guilty of opportunism, don't fool yourself. The Republicans and Democrats were both responsible for the Patriot Act (Joe Biden ring a bell?). Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional, but it's been 35 years so we'd look silly changing it now.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 02:07 PM
It wasn't a school, just a private company, and yes they were in deep shit.

And that whole law has a few kinks if you ask me. I knew someone who peed on a dumpster and had to register as a sex offender due to public indecency. Crazy.

Public sex, groping, peeing, just running around in the buff, checking yourself for breast cancer, it'll all take away your personal liberties.

JebusLives
10-30-2009, 02:09 PM
I just think that we are way too busy worrying about the rights of the guilty and not enough time worrying about the rights of the innocent.

I think you're spending too much time worrying about retribution, and not enough thinking about the actual purpose of the legal system: to protect the innocent. Locking someone up forever protects people the same as killing them does, but its actually cheaper and (we believe) more humane.

The justice system is not for institutionalized revenge. That's certainly not what I'm paying for.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 02:09 PM
STREAKING

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 02:13 PM
The standard for the government should be how murderers treat their victims? Shouldn't people with the capacity to be reasonable and think things through exercise those things and not lower themselves to a criminal level?
I hate to tell you, but our Government doesn't have the capacity you're giving it credit for. Why do you think killers get 25-life, or 15-life? The Government basis that on how the victime were treated.


We have a law that mandates any registered sex offender (a VERY ambiguous term) must display a photo, description and his address on the internet for anyone to see. I think we are plenty tough on sex offenders.
Which explains how the gal who lived in the backyard for 20+ years must be thinking?


So you are saying this was almost a rehabilitation experience? hmmm

Just for the record though women's prisons are generally way nicer than men's. The women's prison here has a bowling alley, a movie theatre, and is across the street from my elementary school I went to and there isn't even a fence.
No, it WAS a rehabilitating experience. I took drug courses, and any other options to better myself. But, I'm sensing the confusion here...We're heading off into crimes that didn't involve taking the life or lives of innocent people. Random acts of heinous violent crime and crimes that can be controlled if done correctly are way different animals...
And if there isn't a fence around the prison across the street and there's a movie theatre and bowling alley, how much different than living on a college campus is that, other then having the freedom to go further taken away? Axe murderers and child killers aren't housed in minimum security prisons, but they certainly aren't living in total squalor either. The only reason they don't have a bowkling alley is because the sickest of the criminals wouldn't throw the balls down the alley, they'd toss them at each other for fun.

stinkbutt
10-30-2009, 02:18 PM
Actually they do house murderers at that particular prison I remember once when I was younger one escaped to go see the free Smashing Pumpkins concert that night.

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 02:20 PM
uh oh, on to politics... peace out. :)
No shit. Me too! Pete's gonna kill me if I'm not ready to head to San Diego to see Bennassi tonite! Fuck! Once again, I'm guilty of sitting here on this damned message board wasting my breath! God dammit!


I think you're spending too much time worrying about retribution, and not enough thinking about the actual purpose of the legal system: to protect the innocent. Locking someone up forever protects people the same as killing them does, but its actually cheaper and (we believe) more humane.

The justice system is not for institutionalized revenge. That's certainly not what I'm paying for.
Cheaper and humane as opposed to inhumane and taking the potential for someone who's value could have been more had they lived? You might want to study up on your math stinkbutt...or pay closer attention to your tax dollars...

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Actually they do house murderers at that particular prison I remember once when I was younger one escaped to go see the free Smashing Pumpkins concert that night.
I wonder if the victim was a Smashing Pumpkins fan too?

BROKENDOLL
10-30-2009, 02:23 PM
Okay, I'm starting to feel a slew of idiotic posts building up in me...Try not to kill each other while I'm gone...:lips

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 02:23 PM
I hate to tell you, but our Government doesn't have the capacity you're giving it credit for. Why do you think killers get 25-life, or 15-life? The Government basis that on how the victime were treated.

Yes, the government should probably use the severity of the crime as a guide for sentencing. But, not surprisingly, you missed my point. I wasn't talking about how the government sentences murderers. I was talking about the government having the capacity to be rational, unlike many murderers, and not kill people as retribution. Regardless of your hyperbole, the government is made up of people who are reasonable enough to make intelligent decisions. It shouldn't lower itself to that level of the common murderer when it has the collective capacity to be more informed and use rational judgment.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Which explains how the gal who lived in the backyard for 20+ years must be thinking?

Has the law not been harsh on that particular sex offender (although he was much worse than a simple sex offender)?

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 02:30 PM
is there an abortion thread?

faxman75
10-30-2009, 02:31 PM
Has the law not been harsh on that particular sex offender (although he was much worse than a simple sex offender)?

I would say the law was not harsh on him. Why? He was awarded with early release from parole for his outstanding behavior. When did he get this award? While he was holding the new victim hostage and raping her.

http://www.kcra.com/news/21211104/detail.html

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 02:33 PM
is there an abortion thread?

Maybe not one devoted to abortion but the issue has been discussed a number of times. The results were what you would expect.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Maybe not one devoted to abortion but the issue has been discussed a number of times. The results were what you would expect.

haha what a shitstorm


i bet half the people in here wouldnt be anywhere near as demonstrative in real life.

e-tough guys

faxman75
10-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Regardless of your hyperbole, the government is made up of people who are reasonable enough to make intelligent decisions.

Are you kidding me?

faxman75
10-30-2009, 02:35 PM
haha what a shitstorm


i bet half the people in here wouldnt be anywhere near as demonstrative in real life.

e-tough guys

Have people been threatening physical violence? Most of the people I know and talk to sit around talking shit, cussing eachother out and laughing all day long. Maybe you just need emoticons so you don't get your feelings hurt? :)

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 02:36 PM
haha what a shitstorm


i bet half the people in here wouldnt be anywhere near as demonstrative in real life.

e-tough guys

Probably not. They'd be horrible communicators if that was the case.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 02:37 PM
I would say the law was not harsh on him. Why? He was awarded with early release from parole for his outstanding behavior. When did he get this award? While he was holding the new victim hostage and raping her.

http://www.kcra.com/news/21211104/detail.html

I don't think it's fair to argue with the most sensational exceptions. This particular, and horrible, occurance does not disprove anybody's points about sex offender laws.

Not calling you out, Fax, I just quoted you so people would have a reference point for my comment.

TommyboyUNM
10-30-2009, 02:39 PM
Are you kidding me?

C'mon now. I know it's fun and in fashion for people to bad mouth politicians and call them "morons" and "idiots," but these politicians are educated enough to be pretty level-headed and reasonable people. Especially compared to the average murderer.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 02:41 PM
I would say the law was not harsh on him. Why? He was awarded with early release from parole for his outstanding behavior. When did he get this award? While he was holding the new victim hostage and raping her.

http://www.kcra.com/news/21211104/detail.html

That is shit. But I agree with Tommy. This is not the norm (which is the only reason it was in the news for so long in the first place).

I think the law is pretty harsh on rapists and kidnappers - maybe they deserve longer punishments, I don't know. But they get their fair share of public humiliation and shame long after they've served their debt.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 02:43 PM
Have people been threatening physical violence? Most of the people I know and talk to sit around talking shit, cussing eachother out and laughing all day long. Maybe you just need emoticons so you don't get your feelings hurt? :)

god i wish there were threats of physical violence. spice things up

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 02:47 PM
Where's Randy when you need him?

faxman75
10-30-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't think it's fair to argue with the most sensational exceptions. This particular, and horrible, occurance does not disprove anybody's points about sex offender laws.

Not calling you out, Fax, I just quoted you so people would have a reference point for my comment.

It was in response to the specific case being discussed. He said "that" sex offender. That's all I was saying. :)

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 02:51 PM
Where's Randy when you need him?

shooting up and listening to some god awful music...hoping he was here to garner attention from confused onlookers

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 02:53 PM
Then Jersey should be quite the crystal slipper.

psycobetabuckdown
10-30-2009, 03:04 PM
Where's OP? Pose another murder-related question since the two obviously Mexican hippie chicks are gone and there's no one left to argue with.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 03:10 PM
They probably have all the great powder heroin in Jersey that he can handle.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 03:12 PM
Then Jersey should be quite the crystal slipper.

hahaha oh man.. lets hope he gets his paws on it amyzzz (por favor, dio)

JebusLives
10-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Cheaper and humane as opposed to inhumane and taking the potential for someone who's value could have been more had they lived? You might want to study up on your math stinkbutt...or pay closer attention to your tax dollars...

You might want to study up on your reading comprehension. Just to begin with, I'm not stinkbutt.

amyzzz
10-30-2009, 03:14 PM
Hey now. I don't like Randy a whole lot, but I don't want him to OD. Geez.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 03:18 PM
Forza, your obsession with Randy is creepy.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 03:21 PM
Forza, your obsession with Randy is creepy.

To be fair, Randy does have Forza as his avatar.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 03:27 PM
hehehe... that was my idea.

Gribbz
10-30-2009, 03:36 PM
I didn't know his old avatar was supposed to be amyzzz. I see it now though.

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 03:41 PM
Yeah, so in sum... still creepy.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 03:48 PM
Forza, your obsession with Randy is creepy.


To be fair, Randy does have Forza as his avatar.


hehehe... that was my idea.

BlackSwan, you're obsession with myself and that idiot is quite creepy as well.

does this justify murder? no, but you earn the title "Douche Nibbler" I think its humerous and accents your aptitude to piss me off.

good thing you listen to good music..

BlackSwan
10-30-2009, 04:32 PM
At least you are not denying it.

I'm obsessed with you? You're the one who repeatedly kept saying you couldn't wait to meet me.

SoulDischarge
10-30-2009, 04:40 PM
Assisted suicide. Discuss.

Alive-style cannibalism for survival. Discuss.

MissingPerson
10-30-2009, 04:44 PM
I don't really have a problem with either of those things, to be honest.

If we're talking cannibalism Wreck of the Essex style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_(whaleship)) though, that's a whole other question.

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 04:51 PM
I support death with dignity. If someone with a terminal illness or other condition wants to head off certain pain and suffering, let them. I'm also in favor of a system to prevent it form being abused not unlike the one we've currently got in place. I don't want to make an absolute judgement on the current system because it's young and I'm not certain it's the right one yet. But to this point it seems to be working well.

SoulDischarge
10-30-2009, 04:53 PM
I forgot. Death panels. Discuss.

Aurgasm
10-30-2009, 06:02 PM
At least you are not denying it.

I'm obsessed with you? You're the one who repeatedly kept saying you couldn't wait to meet me.

i give up

boarderwoozel3
10-30-2009, 06:07 PM
Sheesh. Sorry for bringing up Rand. It was for lulz people, LULZ.

kroqken
10-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Dr. Jack Kevorkians attorney was the lead singer/drummer for the Knack, true story!

faxman75
10-30-2009, 06:54 PM
C'mon now. I know it's fun and in fashion for people to bad mouth politicians and call them "morons" and "idiots," but these politicians are educated enough to be pretty level-headed and reasonable people. Especially compared to the average murderer.

It's been in fashion to bad mouth politicians since the beginning of politicians. I wouldn't say morons and idiots. I would say much like religious leaders they abuse their power and prey on the minds of the weak. I am not comfortable making any blanket statements about them being educated, level headed or reasonable either because they most definitely all aren't and in fact most of them probably aren't good genuine people.

Somewhat Damaged
10-30-2009, 07:00 PM
Assisted suicide? Sure.

Alive-style cannibalism for survival? Sure, even without the "survival."

Death panels? Could be handy.

Driving home from work today, I thought for a minute that everything would be better if the world would just cease to exist.

obzen
10-30-2009, 07:06 PM
Alive-style; It wins.

JebusLives
10-30-2009, 08:30 PM
Assisted suicide. Discuss.

Alive-style cannibalism for survival. Discuss.

the only person anyone should have the right to murder is themselves. Anytime, for any reason. Come on, come feel the Reaper.

Eating the dead makes sense for survival. Its just a corpse. I don't see the controversy. Its gross, but I don't see the controversy.

BROKENDOLL
11-01-2009, 01:51 AM
We have a law that mandates any registered sex offender (a VERY ambiguous term) must display a photo, description and his address on the internet for anyone to see. I think we are plenty tough on sex offenders.




6 bodies found, Ohio rape convict arrested
By THOMAS J. SHEERAN, AP
-Anthony Sowell regularly reported to the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office, as required since his release from prison after serving 15 years for a rape conviction, authorities say.
Now he is back in custody after four years of freedom, arrested Saturday on new rape charges and after police discovered six decomposing bodies at his home.
Two bodies were identified by county Coroner Frank Miller as black females and one had died of a violent death ruled a homicide. No race or gender was determined for the others. Autopsies were performed on all six bodies but no cause of death or names were announced.
Police spokesman Lt. Thomas Stacho said Sowell was walking down the street on the east side of Cleveland when authorities spotted him and took him into custody. Sowell initially denied he was the man authorities were looking for but admitted his identity as officers began fingerprinting him, Stacho said.
Police established a command post in the neighborhood to take missing-person reports and additional information on outstanding missing persons in the neighborhood.
Teresa Hicks, 48, was among the neighbors who said they were relieved about the arrest but left with a heightened fear of crime. She said she has known Sowell since high school.
"He was crazy," she said from her porch. "Sometimes he would just go off if he didn't have his way."
Darren Dunlap, 38, frequently visits the neighborhood to see his brother or friends. He said Sowell was known for borrowing money and looking for scrap metal to sell.
Hicks said she didn't think Sowell had a job but understood from conversations with him that he lived on a monthly check. She said she didn't know its source.
Police were checking crime reports to find matches for similarities to the most recent allegation against Sowell or the 1989 rape case against him that resulted in his conviction. They also were checking missing-person reports back to June 2005, when Sowell was released.
The first two bodies were found Thursday night when police went to Sowell's home to arrest him on charges of felonious assault and rape. Detectives with a search warrant found the bodies on the third floor of a duplex and began checking a fresh grave dug in the basement. Their advanced state of decomposition suggested the bodies had been in the home a long time. By Saturday, six bodies were counted.
Minutes before Sowell's arrest, police Chief Michael McGrath tried to reassure parents that it was safe for their children to go trick-or-treating in the neighborhood if they followed standard precautions like avoiding strangers and staying in a group.
Hicks said her daughter would not be going door-to-door.


So, do some of you still want to support your claims for "pro-life?"
I mean, you've already paid for 15 years of absolutely nothing...Obviously no rehabilitation, but why worry as long as he registers as a sex offender, right?
If this still doesn't make you consider the death penalty, then maybe another 25-life sentence of throwing your money away on a waste of life will? Here's a link to some info on the cost of housing an inmate on death row...

http://www.taxed2death.org/sources-%20fin%20cost.html

SoulDischarge
11-01-2009, 08:52 AM
the only person anyone should have the right to murder is themselves. Anytime, for any reason. Come on, come feel the Reaper.

Eating the dead makes sense for survival. Its just a corpse. I don't see the controversy. Its gross, but I don't see the controversy.

Well, given the context of the thread, I meant preying on a weaker, living human being to survive.

greghead
11-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Yes to both counts.

I am in full support of survival cannibalism, though not if people are preying/murdering each other. Having to fend off attackers while starving just isn't right. Wait for the weak to die.

Eating human flesh would be a very strange experience, but if I had to survive, I would eat each and every one of you.

Gribbz
11-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Tastes like chicken.

rskapcat
11-01-2009, 02:54 PM
Sounds like you speak from experience, Matt. Kinky.

Gribbz
11-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Sounds like you speak from experience, Matt. Kinky.

Waste not, want not Becca.

rskapcat
11-01-2009, 03:16 PM
*giggle*

MissingPerson
11-01-2009, 03:17 PM
You specified "Alive style" cannibalism. The Alive guys ate their dead; they didn't actually kill anybody.

The universe has already been a huge asshole to those folks, so lets not start accusing them of murder on top of it.

BROKENDOLL
11-01-2009, 03:40 PM
Oh yeah - I don't know what the average sentences are for different types of sex offenders, but I assume that they're too light for rapists and too harsh for public nudity.

The rights of the innocent and the guilty are the same once the sentence has been served. I am not sure Megan's Law is constitutional but I have a hunch it isn't. However, I guess you could describe it as part of the sentence, I don't know.

But the important thing is that a punishment is what it is for a reason - no one should be damned for life without a second chance no matter what they've done. If they've done their time they have every right as you and me.
Once the sentence has been served, the guilty walk free and the innocent are still dead. And while there's a reason the guilty got punished, could you explain the reason the innocent got murdered? Your thought process amazes me! Usually small things like that don't.




Where's OP? Pose another murder-related question since the two obviously Mexican hippie chicks are gone and there's no one left to argue with.
Yep, sure enough...Talking about shit you know absolutely nothing about...

fatbastard
11-01-2009, 04:24 PM
People who want to kill themselves should have the option of buying a kit at CVS. I'm thinking a $15.99 price point, with a $1.00 mail in certificate. How many people would actually mail it in? More revenue for the company.

MissingPerson
11-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Kinda like Children of Men.

psycobetabuckdown
11-01-2009, 07:47 PM
6 bodies found, Ohio rape convict arrested
By THOMAS J. SHEERAN, AP
-Anthony Sowell regularly reported to the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Office, as required since his release from prison after serving 15 years for a rape conviction, authorities say.
Now he is back in custody after four years of freedom, arrested Saturday on new rape charges and after police discovered six decomposing bodies at his home.
Two bodies were identified by county Coroner Frank Miller as black females and one had died of a violent death ruled a homicide. No race or gender was determined for the others. Autopsies were performed on all six bodies but no cause of death or names were announced.
Police spokesman Lt. Thomas Stacho said Sowell was walking down the street on the east side of Cleveland when authorities spotted him and took him into custody. Sowell initially denied he was the man authorities were looking for but admitted his identity as officers began fingerprinting him, Stacho said.
Police established a command post in the neighborhood to take missing-person reports and additional information on outstanding missing persons in the neighborhood.
Teresa Hicks, 48, was among the neighbors who said they were relieved about the arrest but left with a heightened fear of crime. She said she has known Sowell since high school.
"He was crazy," she said from her porch. "Sometimes he would just go off if he didn't have his way."
Darren Dunlap, 38, frequently visits the neighborhood to see his brother or friends. He said Sowell was known for borrowing money and looking for scrap metal to sell.
Hicks said she didn't think Sowell had a job but understood from conversations with him that he lived on a monthly check. She said she didn't know its source.
Police were checking crime reports to find matches for similarities to the most recent allegation against Sowell or the 1989 rape case against him that resulted in his conviction. They also were checking missing-person reports back to June 2005, when Sowell was released.
The first two bodies were found Thursday night when police went to Sowell's home to arrest him on charges of felonious assault and rape. Detectives with a search warrant found the bodies on the third floor of a duplex and began checking a fresh grave dug in the basement. Their advanced state of decomposition suggested the bodies had been in the home a long time. By Saturday, six bodies were counted.
Minutes before Sowell's arrest, police Chief Michael McGrath tried to reassure parents that it was safe for their children to go trick-or-treating in the neighborhood if they followed standard precautions like avoiding strangers and staying in a group.
Hicks said her daughter would not be going door-to-door.


So, do some of you still want to support your claims for "pro-life?"
I mean, you've already paid for 15 years of absolutely nothing...Obviously no rehabilitation, but why worry as long as he registers as a sex offender, right?
If this still doesn't make you consider the death penalty, then maybe another 25-life sentence of throwing your money away on a waste of life will? Here's a link to some info on the cost of housing an inmate on death row...

http://www.taxed2death.org/sources-%20fin%20cost.html

Haven't you already made this argument? What makes you think posting an article will change your argument at all?

In this guy's case, he deserves a life sentence without parole for what he's done. We don't need to take revenge, only justice. Btw, I pointed out that the sex offender registry is very flawed and ambiguous and probably unconstitutional. Prison is not for rehabilitation though. That is for the judge to decide.

psycobetabuckdown
11-01-2009, 07:51 PM
Once the sentence has been served, the guilty walk free and the innocent are still dead. And while there's a reason the guilty got punished, could you explain the reason the innocent got murdered? Your thought process amazes me! Usually small things like that don't.

The guilty shouldn't be (and usually aren't) walking free if the innocent are dead. The punishment should fit the crime. You're making an irrelevant argument.

The innocent got murdered because the person who murdered him was a murderer. You clearly insist that the courts are there for revenge, while I and others have made pretty good arguments for why they're not - only for justice. You understand the difference?

wmgaretjax
11-01-2009, 07:52 PM
The sex offender registry is undoubtedly unconstitutional.

TommyboyUNM
11-01-2009, 07:59 PM
The guilty shouldn't be (and usually aren't) walking free if the innocent are dead. The punishment should fit the crime. You're making an irrelevant argument.

The innocent got murdered because the person who murdered him was a murderer. You clearly insist that the courts are there for revenge, while I and others have made pretty good arguments for why they're not - only for justice. You understand the difference?

Though we've had our disagreements, I am completely with you here. And you have to remember that it's hard to reason with someone who is arguing purely based on emotion.

The most sensational, extreme examples are not going to sway anybody.

BROKENDOLL
11-01-2009, 09:06 PM
Haven't you already made this argument? What makes you think posting an article will change your argument at all?

In this guy's case, he deserves a life sentence without parole for what he's done. We don't need to take revenge, only justice. Btw, I pointed out that the sex offender registry is very flawed and ambiguous and probably unconstitutional. Prison is not for rehabilitation though. That is for the judge to decide.
One last time psycho, who do you think pays for that dudes life sentence? Did you bother to checkout the link I included? $90,000 per year to serve justice. I'm sorry but the motherfucxker had a chance at fair justice. And after 15 years he goes out and rapes and kills 6 more people? WTF?


The guilty shouldn't be (and usually aren't) walking free if the innocent are dead. The punishment should fit the crime. You're making an irrelevant argument.

The innocent got murdered because the person who murdered him was a murderer. You clearly insist that the courts are there for revenge, while I and others have made pretty good arguments for why they're not - only for justice. You understand the difference?
I've never used the word revenge in this thread. Prisons are not for revenge, my friend, but rehabilitation is offered. I don't think you have a clue as to what a prison is like, or what type of people are in prisons these days. But, I'm gonna accept your theory based upon your staement, "The punishment should fit the crime." Now, based on that, let's say your parents are sitting and watching TV in their own home one night. Without reason, someone breaks in through the front door and proceeds to shoot them both point blank before robbing them of whatever. Explain to me what kind of punishment justice should serve to this guy for his cold blooded murder of your family members...Maybe then I'll consider your point. How's that?


Though we've had our disagreements, I am completely with you here. And you have to remember that it's hard to reason with someone who is arguing purely based on emotion.

The most sensational, extreme examples are not going to sway anybody.
My argument is not based solely upon my emotions. Much of it is based upon witnessing first hand exactly how our system works...or, in this case, doesn't work. I've met people serving 25-life who had absolutely no hand in killing anybody, but because they were a passenger in the getaway car, they're given a life sentence. On their own, they aren't and weren't capable of killing anyone. I met a young gal that killed 2 people due to drunk driving. She didn't intend to kill anybody. Hell, from her story, I gathered she really wasn't a drinker. 25-life. In those cases, rehabilitation and the possibility of freedom after serving their time could be possible. But, don't tell me the sensational, extreme examples like this guy who has already served 15 years, earns his freedom and then proceeds to kill and rape 6 people deserves anymore justice.

And, Tommy, as far as those extreme examples...those with 2 life sentences or no possibility of parole ever? Those are the ones I'm standing sternly on my opinion in favor of the death penalty. With the country in the state it's in, more and more crimes are being committed. Watch the news and tell me there aren't more and more sensational crimes occurring...Prisons are so overcrowded now that they don't know where they'll house everybody. They already talk about letting the short term criminals go early to allow space. Those same people could be better for society with some rehabilitation or training, but they'll get cut loose before that happens, why? Because some gun-toting psycho needs a fair chance to live out his worthless life. Guess what, the percentage of those released will be back in less than 2 years...Maybe instead of us arguing over the death penalty, we need to discuss our criminal justice system and what should be chnaged to make it better for all?

MissingPerson
11-02-2009, 06:38 AM
Mostly, the serious crime rate has actually declined in the recent past. Dramatically so, in some years.

Meanwhile, all that's actually increased is the perception of it.

faxman75
11-02-2009, 06:42 AM
The sex offender registry is undoubtedly unconstitutional.

Truth

JebusLives
11-02-2009, 06:43 AM
Mostly, the serious crime rate has actually declined in the recent past. Dramatically so, in some years.

Meanwhile, all that's actually increased is the perception of it.

Its amazing how many times you can tell people this, and how many statistics you can throw at them showing it is so, and yet the public is still convinced that society is getting more violent.

It doesn't help when the absolute #s of crimes are going up along with the population, so in a given news-hour they can cram more or more horrific incidents into the reporting. People will trust anecdotes over statistics any day.

Curiously, the summer of Love (1969) was one of the most violent on record, at least in the US.

MissingPerson
11-02-2009, 07:03 AM
I like visual aids, but alas, any of the graphs proving the point are nigh on unreadable.

locachica73
11-02-2009, 07:39 AM
I think it has more to do with the horrendousness of the crimes. I remember when I first moved to Phoenix with my kids 11 years ago. In a month period there was a woman who took her three kids out to the garage in blindfolds and then set them on fire, then the man who took his toddler daughter out to the desert lit her on fire, and several other horrible things that as a parent you can't begin to imagine.

Also, having children does change your view a little I think. The thought of anyone harming your child brings out your more vengefull side. Like I said, I was born and raised in the Portland area, home of the tree hugging pot smokers. But having been through what I went through with my daughter and knowing that because of the "lack of evidence" the man was let free to go out and harm another child... It kills me everyday and it is 14 years later. And for the record, if I ever saw that man again, I would kill him myself.

MissingPerson
11-02-2009, 10:17 AM
I guess if we're going to take a detour into media coverage of bad news, I should post this.

Skip the first bit, but from about 2 minutes onwards - particularly the last four minutes - is amazing stuff.

xd8IdK-T1Ew

TommyboyUNM
11-02-2009, 11:19 AM
I'm sorry if any of you have been through horrible situations and were not aided much by the legal process. Nobody deserves to go through any of that. However, I don't feel as if those situations are the norms. They are unfortunate byproducts of a system that is largely designed to protect the innocent. A close to 100%, fool-proof system would require us to give up most of our rights. I'm talking about crazy things like having cameras on everyone 24 hours a day. Without outlandish things like that, you have to rely on evidence and witnesses. Sometimes guilty people get away with it and sometimes innocent people go to jail. It's the nature of the beast.

Sometimes people lose me during arguments when they get too emotionally vested in it. I understand it's hard not to, but it's important to consider the larger scope of what you're talking about. Not to point worst-case scenarios or something that happened to you or a loved one that is not the norm.

I'm glad a few of you mentioned the media's role in all of this. The 24-hour news cycle is largely to blame for this perception that the country is more violent. Sure, crime can tend to rise during a recession. That ties into the whole idea that poverty is one of the main catalysts for crime. But I think it's unfair to say that the judicial system's inadequacies are leading to a more violent society. These news channels have to fill time and have to be the first to report a potentially big story so their ratings will be higher than the competition. This leads to faulty journalism, lazy fact checking, and coverage of stories that don't deserve much coverage. The increase of violent crimes (if there is any) is not even close to proportional to the increase in coverage of violent crimes. I have to dig through some of my college journalism text, but there are statistics that show this.

psycobetabuckdown
11-02-2009, 11:47 AM
One last time psycho, who do you think pays for that dudes life sentence? Did you bother to checkout the link I included? $90,000 per year to serve justice. I'm sorry but the motherfucxker had a chance at fair justice. And after 15 years he goes out and rapes and kills 6 more people? WTF?

It costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life, as has been said by a couple other people before.


I've never used the word revenge in this thread. Prisons are not for revenge, my friend, but rehabilitation is offered. I don't think you have a clue as to what a prison is like, or what type of people are in prisons these days. But, I'm gonna accept your theory based upon your staement, "The punishment should fit the crime." Now, based on that, let's say your parents are sitting and watching TV in their own home one night. Without reason, someone breaks in through the front door and proceeds to shoot them both point blank before robbing them of whatever. Explain to me what kind of punishment justice should serve to this guy for his cold blooded murder of your family members...Maybe then I'll consider your point. How's that?

You haven't used the word "revenge" but you are advocating state-sponsored revenge. I don't know what my experience with prison has to do with this.

My "punishment should fit the crime" statement was in reference to your claim that someone who murders an innocent often walks free, and I was saying that almost never happens, because in the U.S., when someone takes an innocent's life he either goes to prison for life or is executed.

So now, after you've been making emotion-based arguments, you're asking me to do the same by personalizing it. I'll bite: if my parents were murdered in cold blood I would be angry to the point of insanity probably. If I found the guy I would either a) reflect on my Christian upbringing and keep my cool or b) run him down with my car. In case b) I would deserve prison time. In case a), if a judge asked me what sentence I believe he deserves, I would 100% not change my mind - it would be life in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. I'm guessing you won't "consider my point" any more than you already have been.

edit: btw, this is why the 2nd Amendment exists and I fully intend to own a gun once I have a family of my own.


Maybe instead of us arguing over the death penalty, we need to discuss our criminal justice system and what should be chnaged to make it better for all?

This would go beyond the questions posed by this thread but that could be useful. But for the record I don't think a better criminal justice system exists in the world, as flawed as ours is.

Archie Bunker
11-02-2009, 12:32 PM
It costs more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life, as has been said by a couple other people before.


This is a dumb argument used by anti-death-penalty activists for two reasons. First, the primary "cost" involved with the death penalty involves the expensive, complicated appeals process. This was put in place by the very people who oppose the death penalty in the first place, so we actually have people like you to thank for the higher cost of the death penalty!

Second, the whole argument about money here is dumb. We do not run our penal system to make or save money. We run it so it best serves society. If "lowest cost" was really the goal of our penal system, we should simply set everyone free and never arrest another person -- bringing our cost down to $0! Of course, this would also bring chaos about our society. Cost should only play into the equation when it greatly affects the overall penal budget, which this issue doesn't. Death penalty or no death penalty, the overall effect on the penal budget is negligible.




You haven't used the word "revenge" but you are advocating state-sponsored revenge. I don't know what my experience with prison has to do with this.


This is another amazing argument I keep hearing from liberals, and it's incredibly fallacious.

Some say, "Our penal system is for rehabilitation and public safety, not punishment."

O RLY?

While rehabilitation is a desirable result in some cases, it is not the primary reason for incarceration. This is the reason for varying lengths of prison sentences. The petty thief may get out in 30 days -- hardly enough time to rehabilitate anyone, and definitely not removing his "threat" from society for a meaningful length of time. The man guilty of second-degree murder might get out in 25 years -- a period of time far longer than needed for "rehabilitation". Furthermore, his danger to society would be about the same after 10 years of incarceration as 25 years. So why would he be serving the extra 15?

Our penal system is definitely about punishment. Small crimes do small time, while big crimes do big time. The biggest crimes (first degree murder) result in the biggest penalty -- death (in some states).

This all makes sense.

You can say that the state doesn't have the right to take lives, but if that's true, why should it have the right to hold someone prisoner for life? Why should it have the right to hold someone prisoner for any period of time?

In order to maintain a civilized society, we must have rules, and there must be consequences for breaking them. In the case of the death penalty, it is a fair consequence -- intentionally taking a life without justification means you do not deserve to have your life.

Still don't agree with me? Do you believe that our penal system should never be for punishment? Consider this scenario:

John has always wanted his next-door-neighbor, Melissa, but she has never been interested in him. Finally, one day he snaps when seeing her come home from work. He forces his way into her house, rapes her, and strangles her because he is afraid she will tell the police who committed the rape. John is eventually arrested and convicted, as he was careless and left various forms of indisputable evidence behind. His DNA matches the semen found inside of Melissa's body. He did it, and nobody doubts this.

Before you consider what should happen to John, God himself comes down and talks to you. He tells you that the experience has completely changed John. If set free, John will lead a crime-free life from this point forward, and will never be a danger to anyone. God says that he can see the future, and that it's 100% certain this will occur if John is released.

Now you know for certain that John will never again be a danger to society, and he is already rehabilitated without spending a day in jail. Knowing this, do you feel John should be set free? If not, wouldn't that mean you are supporting state punishment, since the goals of rehabilitation and safety have already been met?

TommyboyUNM
11-02-2009, 12:44 PM
Archie, did any of us ever say that the penal system shouldn't be used for punishment? I don't remember reading that. Revenge and punishment are different. We're arguing degrees of punishment and you're making it seem like we're dismissing punishment all together.

MissingPerson
11-02-2009, 12:53 PM
Second, the whole argument about money here is dumb. We do not run our penal system to make or save money. We run it so it best serves society. If "lowest cost" was really the goal of our penal system, we should simply set everyone free and never arrest another person -- bringing our cost down to $0! Of course, this would also bring chaos about our society. Cost should only play into the equation when it greatly affects the overall penal budget, which this issue doesn't. Death penalty or no death penalty, the overall effect on the penal budget is negligible.

I agree with this. It is, however, not anti-death penalty types who keep raising the issue - pro-death penalty types keep rabbitting on about how much they resent their tax dollars blah blah blah... which is the only reason it keeps coming up.



This is a dumb argument used by anti-death-penalty activists for two reasons. First, the primary "cost" involved with the death penalty involves the expensive, complicated appeals process. This was put in place by the very people who oppose the death penalty in the first place, so we actually have people like you to thank for the higher cost of the death penalty!

Think about this. The lengthy appeals process is an attempt to try and reduce the number of innocent people put to death by the government of the nation. It doesn't entirely work - so long as there is a death penalty, there will be blameless people receiving it - but it's at least something. It's lengthy and it's costly but the alternative is to kill them all industrially and let God sort 'em out afterwards.

Since we're all so giddy about disposing of our murderers, I'd have thought that we'd be equally enthusiastic about trying to make sure innocent people get ground up by the process.

Telling.