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betao
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=11993


Burlington, Vt. - This morning, PETA dispatched a letter to Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield, cofounders of ice cream icon Ben & Jerry's Homemade Inc., urging them to replace the cow's milk in their products with human breast milk. PETA's request comes in the wake of news reports that a Swiss restaurant owner will begin purchasing breast milk from nursing mothers and substituting breast milk for 75 percent of the cow's milk in the food he serves. PETA points out to Cohen and Greenfield that such a move on their part would lessen the suffering of dairy cows and their babies on factory farms and benefit human health at the same time.

"The fact that human adults consume huge quantities of dairy products made from milk that was meant for a baby cow just doesn't make sense," says PETA Executive Vice President Tracy Reiman. "Everyone knows that 'the breast is best,' so Ben & Jerry's could do consumers and cows a big favor by making the switch to breast milk."

real talk
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
Look how mad you're getting. Sucker.

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
I have a theory that PETA was actually created by the meat industry in order to discredit the animal rights movement. It's working.

marooko
06-23-2009, 02:32 PM
so, cow milk is for baby cows and breast milk is for humans of all ages. hmm. didnt know that. the part i dont get is why women dont produce breast milk all the time.

real talk
06-23-2009, 02:33 PM
And obvious headline grabs are for attention. See?

bleep
06-23-2009, 02:41 PM
merle?

kreutz2112
06-23-2009, 02:47 PM
This kind of stuff doesn't bug me as much as when some of my old coworkers had their houses vandalized and lives threatened. Fuck animal activists when they do that shit. They deserve to be murdered. This stuff, as RT has stated, is a publicity stunt and is pretty much irrelevant.

Sleepingrock
06-23-2009, 02:50 PM
http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6548&highlight=Breastmilk

Merle would be glad to hear....though he prefers Cambodian milk...from Pol Pot's concubines...

As a vegeterian/aspiring vegan...I think PETA is dumb as shit.... in the whole biology of things we shouldnt be eating/drinking milk from any creature...... But come the fuck on PETA.... They are just going backwards.....soon we will be wearing human leather..... Why can't PETA just promote freerange/organic/hunting instead of going to such an extreme....

Take everything in Moderation...especially moderation

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 02:51 PM
Yeah this is basically harmless. There are many other reasons why PETA should go away. Suggesting that Ben & Jerry's should substitute human milk in place of cow milk is not one of them.

What are the harmful effects of human breast milk anyway? I'm not up on this. Someone please enlighten me.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 02:57 PM
PETA values animal life over human life. That's why they should go away.

Westy
06-23-2009, 02:58 PM
ad3Hzsy1-20

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Fuck animal activists when they do that shit. They deserve to be murdered.

This kind of statement is counter-productive to whichever side of an argument you're on and you're a smart guy and you know this.


PETA values animal life over human life.

Would you care to substantiate this claim?

Aurgasm
06-23-2009, 03:07 PM
well these guys are always saying weird shit.

on the other hand I have a feeling that drinking lots of cows milk cant be good for you. too many nutrients

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:08 PM
Think of the puppies...

http://cutepuppiespictures.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/cute_puppy.jpg

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 03:08 PM
What are the harmful effects of human breast milk anyway? I'm not up on this. Someone please enlighten me.


Seriously, one of you must know. Onyx, my man, drop some knowledge on me.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:08 PM
on the other hand I have a feeling that drinking lots of cows milk cant be good for you. too many nutrients

And hormones. And blood. Also pus.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 03:08 PM
well these guys are always saying weird shit.


Why is it weird? This isn't a dickish question. I really want to know. I plead ignorance on the subject of breast milk.

rage patton
06-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Yeah this is basically harmless. There are many other reasons why PETA should go away. Suggesting that Ben & Jerry's should substitute human milk in place of cow milk is not one of them.

What are the harmful effects of human breast milk anyway? I'm not up on this. Someone please enlighten me.

What PETA are saying here isn't wrong per se, but it is just plain silly. Almost as silly as PETA requesting the Pet Shop Boys change their name to the Rescue Shelter Boys. Almost.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 03:12 PM
"Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it.”

—Ingrid Newkirk

I guess you can spin that however you'd like.

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:13 PM
There's nothing I like better in the morning than a glass of cold cow milk.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm not a spinner. I just asked for evidence.

Also I can't find where that quote is directly attributed to Ingrid Newkirk - only places where anti-PETA organizations quoted it for their own ads.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:15 PM
There's nothing I like better in the morning than a glass of cold cow milk.

You have a long history of consumption of ass-nasty foods, Menik.

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:19 PM
I don't do the non-fat/fat-free stuff though...no way, that's gross...might as well take a glass and just fill it with half milk and half warm water....ewww.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:20 PM
Why is it weird? This isn't a dickish question. I really want to know. I plead ignorance on the subject of breast milk.

From what the interwebs have told me, it's most likely safe if the person providing the milk is disease free of course. If the mother who is providing the breast milk has a disease, it may be transmitted via drinking her milk.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:21 PM
I don't do the non-fat/fat-free stuff though...no way, that's gross...might as well take a glass and just fill it with half milk and half warm water....ewww.

You should just get a cow and take it straight from the teat.

Young blood
06-23-2009, 03:22 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3642661392_893103fda0_o.jpg

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:24 PM
You should just get a cow and take it straight from the teat.

No need, Clover-Stornetta's dairy is right up the road.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 03:24 PM
What PETA are saying here isn't wrong per se, but it is just plain silly. Almost as silly as PETA requesting the Pet Shop Boys change their name to the Rescue Shelter Boys. Almost.

Oh, that PETA, it are a silly organization.


From what the interwebs have told me, it's most likely safe if the person providing the milk is disease free of course. If the mother who is providing the breast milk has a disease, it may be transmitted via drinking her milk.


That makes sense. I would think/hope they would put disease-free milk in ice cream that is mass produced.

Anything else?

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:25 PM
You should sneak in after dark.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm not a spinner. I just asked for evidence.

Also I can't find where that quote is directly attributed to Ingrid Newkirk - only places where anti-PETA organizations quoted it for their own ads.

It's from a Vogue interview she gave. September 1989 issue.

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:26 PM
You should have seen all the cows and dairy farms we passed on our way to Point Reyes Lighthouse...it was like there was one every 100 feet.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:27 PM
It's from a Vogue interview she gave. September 1989 issue.

It seems like a very incendiary thing to say. Animal testing for medical purposes is a very tricky subject for me, the lines are very blurry.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:27 PM
I think this is a pretty fucked up way to campaign.


"like the Jews murdered in concentration camps, animals are terrorized when they are housed in huge filthy warehouses and rounded up for shipment to slaughter. The leather sofa and handbag are the moral equivalent of the lampshades made from the skins of people killed in the death camps."

They are in favor of euthinasia.


PETA euthanized 1,946 companion animals in Virginia in 2005, out of 2,138 animals surrendered to them or picked up as strays

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:27 PM
They certainly know how to cause a stir and get in the news, that's for sure. Their marketing department is genius. And Adam - PETA isn't typically behind the laboratory/staff firebombings, etc., it's usually the more radical groups. And those groups ought to be shut down because they're essentially animal rights terrorists. PETA can keep on doing what they do, it's fairly harmless.

marooko
06-23-2009, 03:34 PM
may be NSFW.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9zg_YA9pN1I/Rq8Zhs809DI/AAAAAAAAAs8/l2LQC8n6q84/s400/cow+body+paint.jpg

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:34 PM
I agree for the most part but some of them are complete loons. Anyone who is kidnapping animals from shelters, then killing them and throwing them in dumpsters because they aren't happy with the way the shelter may or may not do the killing is kind of off the charts crazy if you ask me. I don't see how that helps the cause, the animals or anyone else for that matter.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 03:36 PM
may be NSFW.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9zg_YA9pN1I/Rq8Zhs809DI/AAAAAAAAAs8/l2LQC8n6q84/s400/cow+body+paint.jpg

Moo indeed.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:37 PM
I highly doubt anyone is throwing euthanized animals in dumpsters (or kidnapping from shelters, for that matter). Being a lab worker who deals with animals I'm not exactly a PETA supporter but I'd be hesitant to believe that sort of thing without proof.

luckyface
06-23-2009, 03:37 PM
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/images/ads/enlargement/print_peta_aspenfire.jpg
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/images/ads/enlargement/print_peta_killsanimals.jpg
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/images/ads/enlargement/print_peta_rats.jpg

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Also euthanasia happens. People misjudge their pet abilities, or don't get them spayed/neutered, or a myriad of other issues and the unfortunate byproduct is euthanasia. Until people stop being stupid or having family misfortunes or dying and leaving their pets behind euthanasia is pretty unavoidable.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:40 PM
I would like to know who funds ConsumerFreedom.com.

boarderwoozel3
06-23-2009, 03:41 PM
Why is it weird? This isn't a dickish question. I really want to know. I plead ignorance on the subject of breast milk.

Well, it takes ~1.4 pints of milk to make each pint of wonderful Ben & Jerry's ice cream. On average a woman can produce ~30oz of breast milk per day or 1.33 pints of ice cream.

That would take a shit load of employees. And cows work for oats.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:42 PM
Eh, Rocke, they're incendiary. It's what they do. They're a lot of rhetoric and sure maybe they incite other groups but their actions are fairly minimal. I think the AIDS ad is my favorite; they did a good job with the "ew gross rat!" vs. "oh my god look at that poor sick kid". Everyone's a spin and even though I'm in lab work I'm iffy on animal research (although that's because mice are really not good models for human systems for the most part so it's kind of silly to use them).

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:43 PM
Also I never thought the day would come when I would advocate tolerance re: PETA.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:43 PM
I highly doubt anyone is throwing euthanized animals in dumpsters (or kidnapping from shelters, for that matter). Being a lab worker who deals with animals I'm not exactly a PETA supporter but I'd be hesitant to believe that sort of thing without proof.

You can doubt it but it's true. The two they caught doing it were ultimately cleared because of a technicality in the charge being "littering" because they actually placed the dead dogs in the dumpster.


PETA euthanized 1,946 companion animals in Virginia in 2005, out of 2,138 animals surrendered to them or picked up as strays


PETA was criticized in 2005 when police discovered that over the course of a month, at least 80 animals had been euthanized and left in area dumpsters. Two PETA employees were seen approaching a dumpster in a van registered to PETA and leaving behind 18 dead animals; 13 more were found inside the van. The animals had been euthanized by the PETA employees immediately after taking them from shelters in Northampton and Bertie counties

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:43 PM
I hope it doesn't get me fired.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 03:43 PM
The only breast milk I drink is Cambodian.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:44 PM
Also euthanasia happens. People misjudge their pet abilities, or don't get them spayed/neutered, or a myriad of other issues and the unfortunate byproduct is euthanasia. Until people stop being stupid or having family misfortunes or dying and leaving their pets behind euthanasia is pretty unavoidable.

Absolutley. I'm for it in humans as well. I just think people who steal animals who are on their death bed to kill them their own way and then toss them in a dumpster are nuts.

I see nothing sane about that.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:45 PM
You can doubt it but it's true. The two they caught doing it were ultimately cleared because of a technicality in the charge being "littering" but they actually placed the dead dogs in the dumpster.





http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL

If this bothers you, I encourage you to do some research into the animal handling practices in cattle, chicken and egg farms.

luckyface
06-23-2009, 03:45 PM
Eh, Rocke, they're incendiary. It's what they do. They're a lot of rhetoric and sure maybe they incite other groups but their actions are fairly minimal. I think the AIDS ad is my favorite; they did a good job with the "ew gross rat!" vs. "oh my god look at that poor sick kid". Everyone's a spin and even though I'm in lab work I'm iffy on animal research (although that's because mice are really not good models for human systems for the most part so it's kind of silly to use them).

I am not foolish enough to think there isn't an agenda behind the group who created those ads. I am sure some industry that benefits from animals is behind those ads. But I think all of these extremist groups are wrong. To think PETA is better than this group is naive, to me. They have an agenda and their hands are just as dirty.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:46 PM
Practically speaking they'll be dead either way.

And then I can get a nice fur out of the deal.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:47 PM
I am not foolish enough to think there isn't an agenda behind the group who created those ads. I am sure some industry that benefits from animals is behind those ads. But I think all of these extremist groups are wrong. To think PETA is better than this group is naive, to me. They have an agenda and their hands are just as dirty.

I'm not saying PETA doesn't have an agenda or that they're better, but villainizing them won't improve any situation.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:47 PM
Practically speaking they'll be dead either way.

And then I can get a nice fur out of the deal.

Crass.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:48 PM
Joke.

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:50 PM
Like I should talk I told Erik to suck a cow teat.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 03:51 PM
If this bothers you, I encourage you to do some research into the animal handling practices in cattle, chicken and egg farms.

Again, I didn't say it bothers me. I'm only speaking as to the sanity of someone who would break into an animal shelter, steal living animals that may or may not be euthinized by the facility, kill them theirselves and then dispose of the animals in dumpsters.

The handling practices of cattle doesn't bother me. I don't care how they are killed and how they are taken care of while they live. The fact is they are bred to be killed and ate. What happens in between isn't an issue with me. I understand it is for some and I understand others are vegetarian because of it but i'm not.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 03:53 PM
The way agriculture deals with animals makes me uncomfortable when I think about it, but apparently I'm not principled enough to stop eating meat/animal products.

menikmati
06-23-2009, 03:53 PM
I still have my farm animal cruelty brochure that the volunteers were handing out at school way back in 2005. Makes me sad to look at it.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 03:54 PM
Well, it takes ~1.4 pints of milk to make each pint of wonderful Ben & Jerry's ice cream. On average a woman can produce ~30oz of breast milk per day or 1.33 pints of ice cream.

That would take a shit load of employees. And cows work for oats.


They wouldn't get the milk from employees. They said the idea is to purchase milk from nursing mothers. They have to purchase cow milk too. Unless Ben & Jerry's already has their own farms. They might.

But you didn't answer my question anyway. It may not be an efficient idea, but what about it makes it weird? Why is breast milk anymore weird to us than cow milk? We're conditioned to believe a lot of unsubstantiated shit.

rage patton
06-23-2009, 03:57 PM
Oh, that PETA, it are a silly organization.

That it are, Tommy. That it are.

[insert lolcat here]

real talk
06-23-2009, 03:57 PM
The way agriculture deals with animals makes me uncomfortable when I think about it, but apparently I'm not principled enough to stop eating meat/animal products.

There are farms that deal with animals in ways that might better match your principles, you just have to pay attention to the details of everything you buy. I do not operate with the pretense that every person should feel the same way I do about consuming meat but I do think that people have a choice to buy products that come from local farms and places that are very transparent with the way they handle their livestock. It'll always be a big joke to some, but it's not just about animals, it's about local economy, the environment, nutrition...

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 03:59 PM
There are farms that deal with animals in ways that might better match your principles, you just have to pay attention to the details of everything you buy. I do not operate with the pretense that every person should feel the same way I do about consuming meat but I do think that people have a choice to buy products that come from local farms and places that are very transparent with the way they handle their livestock. It'll always be a big joke to some, but it's not just about animals, it's about local economy, the environment, nutrition...


Agreed. The people who just dismiss the things you bring up as "hippie" things are likely just way too lazy to find out what they are buying. These things are important, but people choose to live in the dark because it's easier that way.

bobert
06-23-2009, 04:00 PM
I would like to know who funds ConsumerFreedom.com.

I'll give you one guess (not consumers)....

Clearly this letter is a publicity stunt meant to generate a very calculated response from people; namely disgust at the concept of ingesting any sort of product manufactured from human breast milk. The fact that this would be much cleaner, healthier, and in a sense, less disgusting than ingesting standard dairy products is the true message of this statement. PETA isn't suggesting that people should start eating products made from human breast milk (at least I hope not.) They're merely suggesting that if one is inclined to consume milk (which no normal adult of any species needs as sustenance) that perhaps one should stick to the milk from their own species, rather than the artificially harvested, hormone infested, lactose ridden milk of cows - or failing that, at least examine why one is considered revolting and the other, not. The irony and ultimate failure of this stunt is that this will be lost on most people.

real talk
06-23-2009, 04:03 PM
Agreed. The people who just dismiss the things you bring up as "hippie" things are likely just way too lazy to find out what they are buying. These things are important, but people choose to live in the dark because it's easier that way.

Not to mention the argument that it's a privileged opinion to think this way. People in poverty in this country have been forced (by corporation) into a system where they can't afford to make ethical decisions about food because it's cost prohibitive. That argument is hard to battle.

humanoid
06-23-2009, 04:03 PM
wasn't this story from about a year ago? I thought I remember reading this exact thing quite a while ago


PETA is pretty extreme in some of their stances and do sound rather crazy at times, but I also think it is a good thing to have someone shining a spotlight on certain issues that may not receive attention otherwise

kind of the same way I feel about Michael Moore, I definitely don't agree with him on everything he says, but I appreciate his willingness to stir things up and provoke thought regarding certain issues

real talk
06-23-2009, 04:05 PM
The irony and ultimate failure of this stunt is that this will be lost on most people.

aka they're preaching to the choir

bobert
06-23-2009, 04:17 PM
aka they're preaching to the choir

Yes, but more importantly they're coming off as sincere, which prevents them from reaching the people they need to convince. For someone who loves dairy products, this will easily be dismissed as some nut-job animal rights stunt. Had PETA tipped their hat a bit to emphasize the absurdity of this idea, then it at least could have generated some discussion. It kind of reminds of the Jonathon Swift essay where he suggested that the Irish should eat their children since the potato famine had ravaged the country. The English thought he was a crazy cannibal, instead of realizing that it was their own apathy towards the situation he was criticizing.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 04:27 PM
They wouldn't get the milk from employees. They said the idea is to purchase milk from nursing mothers. They have to purchase cow milk too. Unless Ben & Jerry's already has their own farms. They might.

But you didn't answer my question anyway. It may not be an efficient idea, but what about it makes it weird? Why is breast milk anymore weird to us than cow milk? We're conditioned to believe a lot of unsubstantiated shit.


Conditioned maybe, but eating, drinking fluids that belong to another person is generally gross to most people, no? We would think of saliva, piss, blood and such and to me drinking your mothers or sisters milk doesn't sound very appetizing. Sex would be the only time some of these fluids are acceptable but still certainly not in amounts we would want to fill up a cup or a bowl of cereal with.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Not to mention the argument that it's a privileged opinion to think this way. People in poverty in this country have been forced (by corporation) into a system where they can't afford to make ethical decisions about food because it's cost prohibitive. That argument is hard to battle.

I think a better argument would be not-so-much that ethical-food decisions are cost prohibitive, but that the ethical-food mindset is not being instilled into people with as much vigor (it does have to do with cost-prohibition in some aspects; for example, a wealthier community would have more opportunities to enter ethical-food discourse into their schools). If the discourse of ethical-food decisions were to become a commercial campaign as these nonsensical antioxidant campaigns, where social-economic indicators don't make as much a difference because antioxidant-products become a hot commodity (therefore, it doesn't need to be a wealthy luxury), then ethical-food awareness would become more prominent, even in place with poverty. Though, not all poverty places, because I'm sure there are communities that are so poor that their grocers only order whatever food, and the social needs are directed more towards getting basic things, and so on...

chairmenmeow47
06-23-2009, 04:35 PM
nothing speaks like money. awareness is good, but until healthier/food-products-made-with-better-treated-animals food options are cheaper, you can pry my two jack's tacos for 99 cents out of my cold, cheap hand. i do wish it was affordable to eat right though, i miss cooking but only cooking for me doesn't work too well as i don't want to eat the same meal 3 days in a row and end up throwing away expensive food.

also fax, why are animal fluids less gross than human fluids? i'm confused.

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 04:35 PM
In regards to whether drinking cow milk is "healthy" and "natural":

Most mammals develop lactose intolerance as a weening mechanism some time after infancy. This includes most humans, but not those of european descent. Why? Because we've had domesticated cattle for a long time. Our ancestors who didn't have the lactose intolerance gene had an adaptive advantage because cow's milk is otherwise extremely healthy and full of nutrients. This trait was passed down, and now most caucasians can drink milk well into adulthood.

The fact that the trait was passed down at all means it must be healthy, and the fact that it has become part of our genetic heritage makes it natural.

Having said that, one can argue it is unnecessary and cruel in today's society. But you shouldn't argue that point using misleading and incorrect rhetoric.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Conditioned maybe, but eating, drinking fluids that belong to another person is generally gross to most people, no? We would think of saliva, piss, blood and such and to me drinking your mothers or sisters milk doesn't sound very appetizing. Sex would be the only time some of these fluids are acceptable but still certainly not in amounts we would want to fill up a cup or a bowl of cereal with.


Drinking fluids that belong to other people is generally gross to most people, yes. Because.......we are conditioned to feel that way. That's my point.

Comparing breast milk to piss and blood isn't fair. We don't bottle up other animals' piss and blood (unless it's in the meat) and sell it at the grocery store. I know the thought of drinking breast milk doesn't sound appetizing to people, but what I still haven't received an answer for is WHY. You just reiterated what I already know and said. That, yes, people find it gross. We've established that. But can you tell me why?

faxman75
06-23-2009, 04:36 PM
Don't get me started on the bottled water industry and what that has done to our planet and poor people.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 04:39 PM
nothing speaks like money. awareness is good, but until healthier/food-products-made-with-better-treated-animals food options are cheaper, you can pry my two jack's tacos for 99 cents out of my cold, cheap hand. i do wish it was affordable to eat right though, i miss cooking but only cooking for me doesn't work too well as i don't want to eat the same meal 3 days in a row and end up throwing away expensive food.

Yeah. Well, I don't know how well the antioxidant stuff is selling, but I imagine it is selling very well, because everybody is jumping onto that bandwagon... But if you were to make the benefits of more ethical-food decisions to be flashy like the "benefits" of antioxidants (there are no real benefits, by the way), then you could probably make healthier food a little closer to two-99-cent-tacos, and more people will start making better food choices.

I'm not the one to talk though. I never pay attention to the food I eat. I'm just trying to put my useless degree to some use by pretending I know what society does.

rage patton
06-23-2009, 04:42 PM
But can you tell me why?

Because its fucking weird, thats why. I don't give a shit about being conditioned to think its weird or gross or whatever. That is not what matters here. What matters is that if Ben & Jerry started using human breast milk, I would stop eating it and that is that. I know I am not alone on this either.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 04:43 PM
In regards to whether drinking cow milk is "healthy" and "natural":

Most mammals develop lactose intolerance as a weening mechanism some time after infancy. This includes most humans, but not those of european descent. Why? Because we've had domesticated cattle for a long time. Our ancestors who didn't have the lactose intolerance gene had an adaptive advantage because cow's milk is otherwise extremely healthy and full of nutrients. This trait was passed down, and now most caucasians can drink milk well into adulthood.

The fact that the trait was passed down at all means it must be healthy, and the fact that it has become part of our genetic heritage makes it natural.

Having said that, one can argue it is unnecessary and cruel in today's society. But you shouldn't argue that point using misleading and incorrect rhetoric.

Milk is an amazing marketing scheme. I love that companies almost make it seem like you'll die without milk, yet, for the most part, human bodies will try and reject it by developing lactose intolerance (I'm starting to develop it, myself). Milk does have its benefits though. Especially in cereal.

chairmenmeow47
06-23-2009, 04:43 PM
ha ha, you guys say you don't like it now, but wait till you get a bitch knocked up. you really gonna say no to the breast the entire time she's lactating?! :p

and i agree alchemy that nutritional education would really benefit us as a society to make better choices, but what will really help is making it affordable to eat healthy and less affordable to eat unhealthy.

faxman75
06-23-2009, 04:43 PM
That, yes, people find it gross. We've established that. But can you tell me why?

you are asking a question that 20 people might have 20 different answers to, no? I would find it gross because it's too close to canibalism. I don't want to make something that the human body produces to be part of my daily diet. I'm already eating steak, the cow makes milk too so why would I start getting my dairy from human lactation?

faxman75
06-23-2009, 04:44 PM
ha ha, you guys say you don't like it now, but wait till you get a bitch knocked up. you really gonna say no to the breast the entire time she's lactating?! :p

If she fills up 8 fluid ounces into a cup, I will without a doubt say no. :)

real talk
06-23-2009, 04:50 PM
i do wish it was affordable to eat right though, i miss cooking but only cooking for me doesn't work too well as i don't want to eat the same meal 3 days in a row and end up throwing away expensive food.

I guarantee you that if you looked into it with more thought and creativity you could spend the same amount of money you spend on food now and make better choices than eating fast food meals. It's just an easy out to say "well show me something I can afford." It takes some effort.

Not that you're going to read this or care because your mind is made up.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 04:51 PM
Because its fucking weird, thats why. I don't give a shit about being conditioned to think its weird or gross or whatever. That is not what matters here. What matters is that if Ben & Jerry started using human breast milk, I would stop eating it and that is that. I know I am not alone on this either.

Sorry, my friend, but this is a horrible answer. You didn't tell me why because there's a good chance you don't even know why. I think the point about us being conditioned is very relevant in the conversation. We're often conditioned to believe in things that don't make much sense. And if you don't know why it's weird or gross then that means you're not basing your opinions on any sort of logic. And that general mindset is dangerous.


you are asking a question that 20 people might have 20 different answers to, no? I would find it gross because it's too close to canibalism. I don't want to make something that the human body produces to be part of my daily diet. I'm already eating steak, the cow makes milk too so why would I start getting my dairy from human lactation?

No, Fax, I don't think there's just one answer to this question. 20 different answers from 20 different people is perfectly fine. And you gave an actual reason. Thank you. I'll accept this. It may not make much sense, but I'll accept it anyway because you know why you think it's gross. You're not just saying "it is what it is."

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Leave the breast milk for infants and Coachella.

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 04:55 PM
I guarantee you that if you looked into it with more thought and creativity you could spend the same amount of money you spend on food now and make better choices than eating fast food meals. It's just an easy out to say "well show me something I can afford." It takes some effort.

Not that you're going to read this or care because your mind is made up.


Or people can just sort of meet themselves in the middle, so to speak. If you can't afford ALL healthy or more animal-friendly food, then maybe just buy that type of food half the time. Or even less. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It's possible to start incorporating more "expensive" items little by little.

real talk
06-23-2009, 04:55 PM
I think a better argument would be not-so-much that ethical-food decisions are cost prohibitive, but that the ethical-food mindset is not being instilled into people with as much vigor (it does have to do with cost-prohibition in some aspects; for example, a wealthier community would have more opportunities to enter ethical-food discourse into their schools). If the discourse of ethical-food decisions were to become a commercial campaign as these nonsensical antioxidant campaigns, where social-economic indicators don't make as much a difference because antioxidant-products become a hot commodity (therefore, it doesn't need to be a wealthy luxury), then ethical-food awareness would become more prominent, even in place with poverty. Though, not all poverty places, because I'm sure there are communities that are so poor that their grocers only order whatever food, and the social needs are directed more towards getting basic things, and so on...

Good point, but I'm thinking directly of the argument that Chairmen Meow just presented which is that it's not reasonable to make ethical food choices because it's not affordable. Even though I disagree with her because I know she's got employment and supports herself so she's in a slightly different group than what I'm talking about with my cost-prohibitive statement (that group being the people on food stamps or other government aid that have to feed large families etc).*

*this is all relative to and dependent on giving a fuck!

TommyboyUNM
06-23-2009, 04:57 PM
And, Rage, I guess I do have a larger point. I'm just sort of challenging you guys to think deeper about why you believe what you believe instead of just chalking it up to "that's just how I feel." Start exploring the logic behind your impulses. That's all.

real talk
06-23-2009, 04:57 PM
Or people can just sort of meet themselves in the middle, so to speak. If you can't afford ALL healthy or more animal-friendly food, then maybe just buy that type of food half the time. Or even less. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It's possible to start incorporating more "expensive" items little by little.

Yep, if items like meat or cheese from an ethical source are too expensive to buy regularly than just eat them occasionally! Make them something special!*

*this is all relevant to, and depending on giving a fuck!

bobert
06-23-2009, 04:58 PM
The fact that the trait was passed down at all means it must be healthy, and the fact that it has become part of our genetic heritage makes it natural.


This is a pretty stupid argument. The human body can be conditioned to handle a variety of different toxins, but this doesn't make the ingestion of said toxins healthy and it certainly doesn't make it natural. By your logic, the fact that people of certain decent have a better tolerance for alcohol than say, Native Americans, who have only been exposed to it for a couple centuries, indicates that alcohol consumption is both healthy and natural since humans have been conditioned to tolerate it. Now I like to drink as much as anyone, but lets not be stupid enough to give scotch its own corner on the food pyramid just cause some people can hold their liquor.

real talk
06-23-2009, 05:00 PM
I hold deeply the belief that the consumption of large quantities of alcohol are ingrained in my ethnic dna.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Good point, but I'm thinking directly of the argument that Chairmen Meow just presented which is that it's not reasonable to make ethical food choices because it's not affordable. Even though I disagree with her because I know she's got employment and supports herself so she's in a slightly different group than what I'm talking about with my cost-prohibitive statement (that group being the people on food stamps or other government aid that have to feed large families etc)

Yeah: If you don't have your basic and essential needs appearing and disappearing from your life in regular intervals, money that might or might not come in, or screaming kids running all over the damn house, then mostly likely your excuse for not making ethical food choices is that you don't want to, not that you can't.

I mean, I'm an animal-hating, capitalist, and I'm slowly committing suicide with my food choices. That's my excuse. Can I sleep at night? Yes, but when I die, I will awake in farm for humans, and they will brand me and mutilate me and turn me into a Carl's Jr. burger.

bobert
06-23-2009, 05:02 PM
Likewise, I'm Irish-German. Thankfully this isn't an animal rights issue.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 05:03 PM
wasn't this story from about a year ago? I thought I remember reading this exact thing quite a while ago



It's old enough.

real talk
06-23-2009, 05:03 PM
I mean, I'm an animal-hating, capitalist, and I'm slowly committing suicide with my food choices. That's my excuse. Can I sleep at night? Yes, but when I die, I will awake in farm for humans, and they will brand me and mutilate me and turn me into a Carl's Jr. burger.

Like I said earlier in the thread, to some it will always be a big joke.

kreutz2112
06-23-2009, 05:05 PM
This kind of statement is counter-productive to whichever side of an argument you're on and you're a smart guy and you know this.

I agree. It is hard to be productive when the side I'm against is being counter-productive in the first place. I respectfully withdraw my "they should be murdered" claim though.


Adam - PETA isn't typically behind the laboratory/staff firebombings, etc., it's usually the more radical groups. And those groups ought to be shut down because they're essentially animal rights terrorists. PETA can keep on doing what they do, it's fairly harmless.

I am aware of this, but PETA is the most prolific and, as has been established in this thread, the animal activist group that is in the public eye. What they do is harmless, I agree, but their ideologies carry over to the "animal rights terrorist" group. While I agree there is a difference between the two groups, to me, the line that separates them is blurry.

Mr.Nipples
06-23-2009, 05:08 PM
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chairmenmeow47
06-23-2009, 05:10 PM
I guarantee you that if you looked into it with more thought and creativity you could spend the same amount of money you spend on food now and make better choices than eating fast food meals. It's just an easy out to say "well show me something I can afford." It takes some effort.

Not that you're going to read this or care because your mind is made up.


Not to mention the argument that it's a privileged opinion to think this way. People in poverty in this country have been forced (by corporation) into a system where they can't afford to make ethical decisions about food because it's cost prohibitive. That argument is hard to battle.

so i guess you don't believe your statment that people can't make ethical decisions about food cause it's cost prohibitive?

i do agree that if i really try and eat the same leftovers 3 days in a row, it possibly can be cheaper to eat healthy/better treated food; however it's just not realistic for me. not to mention that when you look at "normal" ground beef versus the better prepared ground beef, there's a noticable price difference. my mind certainly isn't made up and i do try to buy healthy when i shop, but it's hard to live by 24/7 as a single person. i have trouble finding single sized portions of healthy, fresh food to prepare myself. and while yes, i can eat leftovers, i just can't get myself to eat the same thing every day. my mom suggested over the weekend that i learn more about what food can be "kept" (for example, freezing meat to put in a stew), but i do fully admit that i don't try hard enough to make it work.

i'm hoping that moving into my own apartment next month will make me feel more free to use the kitchen again, another part of my personal problem with cooking is sharing a kitchen & fridge with roommates who never leave room for me to keep stuff around.

either way though, i would love to see a culture of food in this country where cheap does not equal shitty food and would be more inclined to cook healthy, fresh foods if it were easy and affordable. because again, it's really hard to beat the price of a fast-food taco these days.

*edit* i see that you realized your prior quote so nevermind i guess. i do give a fuck and do buy healthy when i can, i'm saying it's not easy or realistic to do ALL THE TIME for the reasons above. and i walk to the grocery store too :)

Mr.Nipples
06-23-2009, 05:12 PM
one of things on my 'to do before i die' list is to punch a PETArd in the mouth

bobert
06-23-2009, 05:14 PM
I am aware of this, but PETA is the most prolific and, as has been established in this thread, the animal activist group that is in the public eye. What they do is harmless, I agree, but their ideologies carry over to the "animal rights terrorist" group. While I agree there is a difference between the two groups, to me, the line that separates them is blurry.

It's kind of the difference between being a Muslim and flying planes into the World Trade Center. That line isn't very blurry.

Principal Onyx Blackman
06-23-2009, 05:15 PM
Psh.

Sleepingrock
06-23-2009, 05:17 PM
It's from a Vogue interview she gave. September 1989 issue.

That was when Aids was hip wasnt it?

real talk
06-23-2009, 05:23 PM
so i guess you don't believe your statment that people can't make ethical decisions about food cause it's cost prohibitive?

i do agree that if i really try and eat the same leftovers 3 days in a row, it possibly can be cheaper to eat healthy/better treated food; however it's just not realistic for me. not to mention that when you look at "normal" ground beef versus the better prepared ground beef, there's a noticable price difference. my mind certainly isn't made up and i do try to buy healthy when i shop, but it's hard to live by 24/7 as a single person. i have trouble finding single sized portions of healthy, fresh food to prepare myself. and while yes, i can eat leftovers, i just can't get myself to eat the same thing every day. my mom suggested over the weekend that i learn more about what food can be "kept" (for example, freezing meat to put in a stew), but i do fully admit that i don't try hard enough to make it work.

i'm hoping that moving into my own apartment next month will make me feel more free to use the kitchen again, another part of my personal problem with cooking is sharing a kitchen & fridge with roommates who never leave room for me to keep stuff around.

either way though, i would love to see a culture of food in this country where cheap does not equal shitty food and would be more inclined to cook healthy, fresh foods if it were easy and affordable. because again, it's really hard to beat the price of a fast-food taco these days.

*edit* i see that you realized your prior quote so nevermind i guess. i do give a fuck and do buy healthy when i can, i'm saying it's not easy or realistic to do ALL THE TIME for the reasons above. and i walk to the grocery store too :)

I didn't realize it, I had never forgotten it. But that's beside the point. I don't really understand your leftovers dilemma, why can't you just cook individual meal portions? It is hard to beat the price (and ease) of a fast-food taco. It is a challenge to cook for yourself but it can be affordable and it can be a really fulfilling activity.

real talk
06-23-2009, 05:24 PM
It's kind of the difference between being a Muslim and flying planes into the World Trade Center. That line isn't very blurry.

Let's not let our jets get too hot here (no pun).

chairmenmeow47
06-23-2009, 05:36 PM
because i generally don't have room to freeze a bunch of things or keep them around a long time since my current roommates don't leave room in the fridge. also, like i stated, i'd never really thought about saving parts of the meal to be cooked later on in another dish until my mom suggested it over the weekend, so i will try to incorporate that into the future. i used to cook when we first moved in and it was just us two girls, but over time they've been buying more shit that leaves no room in the fridge/freezer and generally are in the kitchen when i want to cook, so it got hard to do on an everyday basis. i'm moving, like i stated above, and look forward to cooking more frequently in the future.

that still doesn't make heathly food more affordable to cook though, it just means i'm saving the same food to cook again later. even though it is rewarding and healthier to cook the healthy/better food, it is still more expensive than unhealthy foods. i am lucky i'm a non-married person without kids, but i couldn't imagine how i'd afford to feed my family with healthy foods if i was. which was my point, those foods need to be cheaper.

liquidsnake28
06-23-2009, 05:40 PM
one of things on my 'to do before i die' list is to punch a PETArd in the mouth

I'd enjoy watching a boa suffocate the president of PETA.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 05:41 PM
I point out once again--cows would be fucking dead if we didn't grow them to eat them.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 05:42 PM
Also, if we're talking about living creatures suffering, I find it hard to believe that there's a living thing--human or animal--that doesn't deserve a little more pain.

real talk
06-23-2009, 05:42 PM
Which foods are you talking about? Buy bulk grains and cereal. Go to a farmer's market and buy local produce or join a farm share where they give you a share every week (farmer's markets are not more expensive then grocery stores, it's typically to the contrary). What specifically are you unable to afford?

Also - I read everything you wrote. I'm supporting your claim that it's hard to pass on cheap food when you're on a budget and I understand that your roommate's take up all the room and that you'll have a kitchen soon and you want to cook and that you walk to the grocery store. I'm engaging you only because I feel like there's a solution but if you feel like you're arguing with me than we can bounce out of this conversation.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 05:43 PM
Farms? Nothing grows in Arizona.

bobert
06-23-2009, 05:44 PM
Also, if we're talking about living creatures suffering, I find it hard to believe that there's a living thing--human or animal--that doesn't deserve a little more pain.

You should definitely go see Transformers 2 then.

kreutz2112
06-23-2009, 06:19 PM
It's kind of the difference between being a Muslim and flying planes into the World Trade Center. That line isn't very blurry.

That is a very extreme case of radicalism where, you are right, the lines aren't blurred. What I was getting at is, it's hard to tell whether PETA has anything to do with the domestic terrorism that occurs because of extreme animal rights activists standing up for what they believe.

Young blood
06-23-2009, 06:35 PM
Farms? Nothing grows in Arizona.

Excuses. Im not a PETAfan, but im sure there are plenty of vegans in Arizona. You can do it on the cheap too. Lifestyle changes are just a pain in the ass.

bmack86
06-23-2009, 07:51 PM
Local meat markets usually buy from small ranches, and tend to have very decent prices, if that's where the concern lies, because at this point I'm sure most people can find decent organic produce pretty much wherever they live. I'm in the middle of LA, with no cows for miles, and we have a meat market that sells free range beef for cheaper than a Vons steak.

But maybe that's not what Valarie means at all with the foods being affordable.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 07:57 PM
My main problem with vegatarianism/veganism is that I'm a picky eater, and vegetables happen to be what I'm most picky about - which isn't uncommon, vegetables are famous for being the most hated foods. I'd have to live off eating bean burritos and rice for my entire life, some cucumbers and black olives here and there, and the occasional plums and oranges. Also, the happiest times of my life are when I'm eating chicken mole, pepperoni pizza, chicken wings, hamburgers, steaks, and Thanksgiving dinner. Aside from the mole, these are all super embedded in American culture, and super embedded in me, and to break them, I would go mad. Also, I wouldn't want to give up Mongolian beef. It is unfortunate that I've been conditioned into such an evil act of animal murder, I would hate for my two cats and two beagles to go through what my hamburgers go through, but I'm a junkie that's shot past the threshold, and sometimes, it's not about what is logical or healthy, but about getting my fix: A charbroiled burger from Carl's Jr. with a large order of fries and a Dr. Pepper.

bmack86
06-23-2009, 08:02 PM
actually, one of my biggest complaints with Vegetarian/vegans is the whole idea of meat substitutes. It seems like saying, "Yeah, we want to eat meat, but we're above that, so we're going to make something that tastes as close as possible."

I know that's not necessarily the case, but if you're vegetarian, it seems antithetical to eat something that's trying to replicate what you're not eating.

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 08:06 PM
This is a pretty stupid argument.

Always great to start with an insult. Ensures the reader's interest in what follows.


The human body can be conditioned to handle a variety of different toxins, but this doesn't make the ingestion of said toxins healthy and it certainly doesn't make it natural.

If drinking milk didn't give an adaptive advantage, the gene in question wouldn't have increased in frequency (see below).


By your logic, the fact that people of certain decent have a better tolerance for alcohol than say, Native Americans, who have only been exposed to it for a couple centuries, indicates that alcohol consumption is both healthy and natural since humans have been conditioned to tolerate it. Now I like to drink as much as anyone, but lets not be stupid enough to give scotch its own corner on the food pyramid just cause some people can hold their liquor.

Any behaviour, practiced over millennia and especially if practiced across cultures, most likely conveys some sort of reproductive advantage. Otherwise the practice would die off. This advantage isn't necessarily nutritional. Alcohol has been used as a social lubricant for a very, very long time. I bet most of the people on this board can attribute some of their sexual experiences to alcohol consumption. Take away birth control, and you can see pretty clearly how alcohol consumption is reproductively beneficial. Maybe "healthy" isn't the right word though.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 08:06 PM
actually, one of my biggest complaints with Vegetarian/vegans is the whole idea of meat substitutes. It seems like saying, "Yeah, we want to eat meat, but we're above that, so we're going to make something that tastes as close as possible."

I know that's not necessarily the case, but if you're vegetarian, it seems antithetical to eat something that's trying to replicate what you're not eating.

It's kind of like being against slavery, but putting your robot-servant in black-face.

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 08:07 PM
My main problem with vegatarianism/veganism is that I'm a picky eater, and vegetables happen to be what I'm most picky about...sometimes, it's not about what is logical or healthy, but about getting my fix: A charbroiled burger from Carl's Jr. with a large order of fries and a Dr. Pepper.

I'm on the same page as you. Eating meat is wrong, but i'm weak and frequently hungry. I've definitely been cutting back though, and I definitely feel healthier.

JustSteve
06-23-2009, 08:13 PM
how is eating meat wrong? humans are omnivore's. our eyes are in the front of our heads because we are predators, not prey.

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 08:18 PM
I can't tell if that's real.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 08:20 PM
how is eating meat wrong? humans are omnivore's. our eyes are in the front of our heads because we are predators, not prey.

That's not why our eyes are on the front of our heads.

Humans have the mental capacity to understand harm, and the information on how to prevent it, thus making a harmonious environment for all animals. So, in that respect, it is wrong for us to eat meat. However, it is not ridiculous or surprising that we eat meat.

luckyface
06-23-2009, 08:23 PM
how is eating meat wrong? humans are omnivore's. our eyes are in the front of our heads because we are predators, not prey.

If eating meat is wrong, why is it so delicious?

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 08:26 PM
You know what's great about jokes everyone has heard? Most people quit using them.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:30 PM
Excuses. Im not a PETAfan, but im sure there are plenty of vegans in Arizona. You can do it on the cheap too. Lifestyle changes are just a pain in the ass.

Show me a fucking farm in Arizona. If you're at a farmer's market in Arizona whatever you're buying has been shipped across state lines.

Thinking that humans are capable of some compassion or rationality more so than other animals is silly. We rationalize, but we're not actually rational.

kreutz2112
06-23-2009, 08:31 PM
That's not why our eyes are on the front of our heads.

Humans have the mental capacity to understand harm, and the information on how to prevent it, thus making a harmonious environment for all animals. So, in that respect, it is wrong for us to eat meat. However, it is not ridiculous or surprising that we eat meat.

Other animals, besides humans, have the mental capacity to not only understand harm, but realize the consequence of said harm. When it comes to survival/reproducing, animals have only themselves to lookout for. It is impossible to achieve a harmonious environment because every environment is so dynamic.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:33 PM
Since when do you think humans look out for anything by themselves?

I raise the question once again--cows would be fucking extinct everywhere except for India if we didn't eat them. How many millions of cow lives came into being by virtue of our eating meat that wouldn't have happened if we didn't raise them? What is the trade off? How many millions of potential calf fetuses would you compassionate vegetarians advocate aborting just so they wouldn't have to die some day?

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 08:37 PM
Hey look everybody, the PETA argument morphed into a philosophical debate about the role of humanity in nature.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:39 PM
The trick to winning every argument is obscuring the point.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:42 PM
I still want an answer to my cow question you NorCal hippie fagbags.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 08:44 PM
Other animals, besides humans, have the mental capacity to not only understand harm, but realize the consequence of said harm. When it comes to survival/reproducing, animals have only themselves to lookout for. It is impossible to achieve a harmonious environment because every environment is so dynamic.

My point was that humans have the capabilities to organize against that though. It's beyond survival/reproducing, because it is possible for some of us to choose between an omnivorous survival and a vegetarian survival. Some animals will make conscious decisions, but most of them have to work harder to survive than humans, and so they don't choose their eating habits as freely. So it is possible, at least in limited communities, for humans to achieve harmonious environments with animals. This isn't unheard of, actually. It just isn't a popular decision to make, because societies are rarely concerned with the welfare of animals; not enough to organize a change in societal eating habits, at least.

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 08:44 PM
I still want an answer to my cow question you NorCal hippie fagbags.

They're all going to die as it is. So would animal rights activists rather one generation die once or in perpetuity? Is that an accurate representation of the question?

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 08:46 PM
They're all going to die as it is. So would animal rights activists rather one generation die once or in perpetuity? Is that an accurate representation of the question?

Also, this way, the animals don't die in vain.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:47 PM
Well it's not exactly proportional. We're talking about (just to simply the figures) one generation of one million cows dying from natural causes because they're simply incapable of fighting for resources, or hundreds of generations (assuming perpetuity) of a million each being given the opportunity to live only to die. Either way, vegetarian practices adopted in whole would eliminate millions of animal lives in advance.

Why is your way more humane?

kreutz2112
06-23-2009, 08:48 PM
My point was that humans have the capabilities to organize against that though. It's beyond survival/reproducing, because it is possible for some of us to choose between an omnivorous survival and a vegetarian survival. Some animals will make conscious decisions, but most of them have to work harder to survive than humans, and so they don't choose their eating habits as freely. So it is possible, at least in limited communities, for humans to achieve harmonious environments with animals. This isn't unheard of, actually. It just isn't a popular decision to make, because societies are rarely concerned with the welfare of animals; not enough to organize a change in societal eating habits, at least.

I would argue that humans are living harmonious with cows, pigs, chickens, etc right now.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Damn skippy. We give them life, they give us crispy sandwiches.

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 08:49 PM
I eat essentially only meat and meat products. I just don't like that argument.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 08:52 PM
I would think it's right up your alley. What's your beef with it?

Mmm, puns.

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:03 PM
Those who claim eating meat is wrong have fallen into a bizarre fantastical moral world, a fairyland where lions and lambs are friends and humans rise above nature. No. We eat meat because we want to, and we want to because of our biology. Denying that want is just gussied-up self-flagellation. Claiming that humans shouldn't eat meat because 'we have the capacity to know better' is based on the same fantasy -- that humans are somehow outside of and different from and superior to nature -- that fueled the industrial revolution belief that humans should exploit and 'tame' the environment because 'we can'.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:03 PM
What I meant by harmonious, though, was humans not eating other animals. Also, it isn't necessarily more "humane" to prevent animals from living off on their own, and it's not necessarily less "humane" to eat meat. What I am saying is, on a personal level, it is a "good" thing to not take part in the eating of animals, just because if humans were in the same situation as cows, we would want it to stop, regardless if it hurts the race or not. Being a vegan doesn't make you more righteous though, you are just making a decision toward "goodness."

On preventing animals from facing the wild though, as Randy states, if humanity adopted veganism as a whole, then the population of animals would take a dramatic downturn. That's probably true, but that's also a part of natural evolution. Hypothetically, if everything remained as it is today for millions of years, except for the biology of animals, than all those animals we kept as livestock would probably either be eaten off by coyotes, wolves, and mountain lions, or they would be lucky enough to become really small and flighty. Is it "good" to release cows into the wild, where they might die from rattlesnake bites? Well, as long as they stay off our streets, they might survive, and if we aren't killing them in a cow holocaust, then it could be considered a "good" thing. But really, the fact of the matter is that it depends if you think releasing cows back into nature is a good thing.

But answer this, when slavery ended, it wasn't like African-Americans/Africans were released into normal American life. After the Holocaust, should we have just let the Jews in the death camps die, because it would be easier on them instead of having to try and regain normalcy in the world? It's the same thing for cows, except that we don't really care about cows that much. I know I don't. So I'm a Meat Nazi. I'm fine. But I can understand the moral things behind it.

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:10 PM
But I can understand the moral things behind it.

this is like saying you understand that squishing a spider is wrong because of Charlotte's Web.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:12 PM
Those who claim eating meat is wrong have fallen into a bizarre fantastical moral world, a fairyland where lions and lambs are friends and humans rise above nature. No. We eat meat because we want to, and we want to because of our biology. Denying that want is just gussied-up self-flagellation. Claiming that humans shouldn't eat meat because 'we have the capacity to know better' is based on the same fantasy -- that humans are somehow outside of and different from and superior to nature -- that fueled the industrial revolution belief that humans should exploit and 'tame' the environment because 'we can'.

Well there are some fallacies in your logic, Tom. Having morality has nothing to do with humans being "outside of" or "different" or "superior to nature." These are just conscious decisions that are possible for people to make. Nobody is saying that lions and lambs will be friends. Humans do have a capacity to know more things than animals, and it has nothing to do with the industrial revolution, and everything to do with human biology. There are many examples in nature of humans (and other animals) having the capacity to improve things, that other animals would physically be capable of, but do not contain the mental capacity to understand. I don't think humans need to "tame" the environment because "we can." I'm just saying that these sort of environments are possible, and that they would be good practices in morality (depending on where your morality stretches), but I certainly don't think vegan-communities are important or probable.

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:13 PM
so tell me Alchemy. Why is it immoral for a human to eat a cow, but not for a lion to eat a gazelle?

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:16 PM
this is like saying you understand that squishing a spider is wrong because of Charlotte's Web.

Well, it's easy to make it seem silly because we have no problem eating cows. It's funny that you criticize the argument of "humans being different than nature," because that is exactly what your argument is. Your argument is that a human life is different from a cow's life or a spider's life. Humans understand the morality of not squishing a baby human, after all.

Sushov23
06-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Those who claim eating meat is wrong have fallen into a bizarre fantastical moral world, a fairyland where lions and lambs are friends and humans rise above nature. No. We eat meat because we want to, and we want to because of our biology. Denying that want is just gussied-up self-flagellation. Claiming that humans shouldn't eat meat because 'we have the capacity to know better' is based on the same fantasy -- that humans are somehow outside of and different from and superior to nature -- that fueled the industrial revolution belief that humans should exploit and 'tame' the environment because 'we can'.

AMEN. I knew I liked you when I met you at Coachella this year.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:18 PM
so tell me Alchemy. Why is it immoral for a human to eat a cow, but not for a lion to eat a gazelle?

Because a lion doesn't have the mental capacity to think, "Oh, that gazelle is going to feel pain, I should forage for some plants instead." A human is capable of thinking, "If I bite into that cow, it's going to feel as if another human is biting into me. I have the choice of making that cow feel that pain or not. I have the choice to kill that cow or not." It's simple logic.

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:18 PM
Well, it's easy to make it seem silly because we have no problem eating cows. It's funny that you criticize the argument of "humans being different than nature," because that is exactly what your argument is. Your argument is that a human life is different from a cow's life or a spider's life. Humans understand the morality of not squishing a baby human, after all.

You didn't answer my question.


edit: humans also understand the morality of a daddy lion not killing a baby lion.

Sushov23
06-23-2009, 09:19 PM
Because a lion doesn't have the mental capacity to think, "Oh, that gazelle is going to feel pain, I should forage for some plants instead." A human is capable of thinking, "If I bite into that cow, it's going to feel as if another human is biting into me. I have the choice of making that cow feel that pain or not. I have the choice to kill that cow or not." It's simple logic.

Do you think you are better than everyone else?

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:20 PM
Because a lion doesn't have the mental capacity to think, "Oh, that gazelle is going to feel pain, I should forage for some plants instead." A human is capable of thinking, "If I bite into that cow, it's going to feel as if another human is biting into me. I have the choice of making that cow feel that pain or not. I have the choice to kill that cow or not." It's simple logic.

this is the fairyland I'm talking about. Your "logic" is based on the premise that kiling an animal to eat it is wrong, which you then use to prove your premise. bzzzz.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:20 PM
You didn't answer my question.


edit: humans also understand the morality of a daddy lion not killing a baby lion.

Yes, but you are ignoring another important attribute of survival. It isn't just about eating, but it is also about reproducing. A daddy lion is going to understand that the baby lion is supposed to live. The difference is that humans don't need to kill cows to ensure that our baby humans live.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:21 PM
Do you think you are better than everyone else?

No. I eat meat. In fact, I'd bite a baby cow right now if it meant not being a vegan. I'm just trying to correct some logical fallacies on human nature.

MassiveChemicalPunk
06-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Man, what the fuck is up with this thread?

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4497077/GrilledSteak-main_Full.jpg

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:23 PM
this is the fairyland I'm talking about. Your "logic" is based on the premise that kiling an animal to eat it is wrong, which you then use to prove your premise. bzzzz.

No Tom, you are ignoring so many factors about humans. Plus, I'm not saying that eating meat is "wrong." I'm just saying that not eating meat is "good" and "moral."

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Yes, but you are ignoring another important attribute of survival. It isn't just about eating, but it is also about reproducing. A daddy lion is going to understand that the baby lion is supposed to live. The difference is that humans don't need to kill cows to ensure that our baby humans live.

jesus you are a logical ball of yarn. tangled and snarled.

You noted that humans know not to kill babies but not to kill cows. then you give me this in response? duh.

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 09:23 PM
so tell me Alchemy. Why is it immoral for a human to eat a cow, but not for a lion to eat a gazelle?

I'll field this one.

Lions, first of all, are carnivores. We aren't. They'd DIE if they went vegetarian. We have the ability to synthesize a lot of the amino acids we need, and they don't.

Secondly, try explaining that to a lion. They're even less reasonable than you are.

We (particularly north americans) have the ability, thanks to nutritional science, to optionally avoid killing animals. Killing hurts. We can avoid inflicting unnecessary pain. How on earth can that be wrong??

I eat meat because I enjoy it, but I don't try to rationalize it with twisted logic. I could stop eating it, and the world would be a better place if I did.

At the very least we consume far more protein than is good for us, or the enviornment. Can I just humbly suggest that you try to eat less of it? Everyone wins.

Still-ill
06-23-2009, 09:25 PM
Man, what the fuck is up with this thread?

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4497077/GrilledSteak-main_Full.jpg

http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/32647-1/mor.jpg

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:25 PM
No Tom, you are ignoring so many factors about humans. Plus, I'm not saying that eating meat is "wrong." I'm just saying that not eating meat is "good" and "moral."

and I'm saying you're living in a fantasyland and you have yet to demonstrate a logical basis for "wrong" and that you are inclined to self-loathing.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:26 PM
jesus you are a logical ball of yarn. tangled and snarled.

You noted that humans know not to kill babies but not to kill cows. then you give me this in response? duh.

You are completely reading everything I am writing incorrectly. It's not a logical ball of yarn, it's you trying to make me say something you can argue with. If you think that humans and lions are in the same boat, then you have a lot to learn about anthropology.

TomAz
06-23-2009, 09:28 PM
I'll field this one.

Lions, first of all, are carnivores. We aren't. They'd DIE if they went vegetarian. We have the ability to synthesize a lot of the amino acids we need, and they don't.

Secondly, try explaining that to a lion. They're even less reasonable than you are.

We (particularly north americans) have the ability, thanks to nutritional science, to optionally avoid killing animals. Killing hurts. We can avoid inflicting unnecessary pain. How on earth can that be wrong??

I eat meat because I enjoy it, but I don't try to rationalize it with twisted logic. I could stop eating it, and the world would be a better place if I did.

At the very least we consume far more protein than is good for us, or the enviornment. Can I just humbly suggest that you eat less of it? Everyone wins.

this is cockamamie horse shit, the modern equivalent to the medieval hair shirt. Killing is natural. The lion kills the gazelle. the human kills the cow. to claim "we have the capacity to know better" is tripe. It presumes that killing the cow is wrong which is then used to prove the point that killing the cow is wrong.

Sushov23
06-23-2009, 09:30 PM
We (particularly north americans) have the ability, thanks to nutritional science, to optionally avoid killing animals. Killing hurts. We can avoid inflicting unnecessary pain. How on earth can that be wrong??

I eat meat because I enjoy it, but I don't try to rationalize it with twisted logic. I could stop eating it, and the world would be a better place if I did.

At the very least we consume far more protein than is good for us, or the enviornment. Can I just humbly suggest that you try to eat less of it? Everyone wins.

Feather and Barbara tried to argue using this, and I just tuned it out. I agree with Randy and Tom on this. To say that we would be better off, and it's morally right is pretty much self righteousness to the definition of the word.

Ardentbiscuit
06-23-2009, 09:36 PM
Who knew this guy and PETA were on same wavelength.

http://www.coachella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6548&highlight=breast+milk

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 09:55 PM
The Human's Reasoning:

1. The human brain has the capability of understanding the effects of pain and death. (Pain hurts; death means no more living.)

2. The human needs to eat to survive.

3. The human, naturally, wants to reproduce.

4. The human has the ability to survive on an omnivorous diet, vegetarian diet, and vegan diet.

5. The human infant, a result of reproduction, also can survive on all three diets.

6. The human tries, at many costs, to avoid pain and death.

7. Because reproduction is important to the human, the human will especially avoid inflicting pain on other humans, and preventing the death of other humans. (Some anomalies exist, of course, as some people will inflict pain and death on other humans.)

8. An omnivorous diet will inflict pain and death on other animals. (Again, pain hurts; death means no more living.)

9. A human has the capacity to understand that another animal, such as a cow, will experience pain and death similar to a human. (Remember, humans try to avoid pain and death.)

10. A human believes that it is good to not inflict pain or death on another human, as shown by societal laws and taboos.

11. A human can make the decision to inflict pain or death on another life form, because the human can opt for a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

12. If other animals experience pain and death similar to humans, then it must also be good for them to avoid both effects.

Conclusion: It is good to avoid inflicting pain and death on all animals.

The Lion's Reasoning:

1. The lion brain has the capability of understanding the effects of pain and death. (Pain hurts; death means no more living.)

2. The lion needs to eat to live.

3. The lion, naturally, wants to reproduce.

4. The lion will prevent inflicting pain or death with its own species, therefore, lions must not want pain or death.

5. Primary to the lion's nature is the survival of its own pride. Especially the young.

6. A lion does not have the mental capability to recognize a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle, because the lion evolved primarily for hunting.

7. Because I lion did not evolve to understand a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle, they must be carnivores. (This is independent to the observation that a lion will try and prevent harm and death to its own pride.)

8. A lion can not make the decision to prevent pain or death, because a lion's primary concern is the survival of its pride, and that is because the lion's brain does not allow it to think otherwise.

Some Tidbits on Human Evolution:

1. Human evolution is not predatory.

2. Human evolution evolved, primarily, in these aspects: Adjustments to upright bipedalism and a growing brain capacity.

3. Different brain capacities in pre-human species are observed in archeological sites, primarily in the increasing complexity of tool crafting, which is proof that animals have different mental capacities.

4. Although human did not evolve to become predators, in the early days of the modern human, when survival was competitive against local animals, the increase of brain capacity did give advantages to an omnivorous lifestyle, especially in that human's had the capacity to seek higher grounds than pre-humans, evident in dwellings, which allowed modern humans to spot moving herds much faster than the competitive "lower branch" humans. Of course, this advantage is no longer needed.

I can't unwind the ball of logic yarn any more than that.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 10:01 PM
This thread went crazy while I was eating delicious fish for dinner.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 10:02 PM
The main thing I want to point out, though, is not that eating meat is not nice, because I'm all for eating meat. I just want to point out that the human mental capacity is different, that a judgment on morality could be found in an instance like eating lifestyles (but we don't need to care about it), and that the human is able to think differently than other animals because of that different mental capacity.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 10:10 PM
You give humans too much credit, Alchemy. We have proven that we are intrinsically capable of far greater brutality than any animal known to man. The fact that a small percentage of us register their distaste for it as a moral decision is yet another in the long history of abstract rationalizations for an indoctrination into yet another belief structure that serves nothing more than to make us feel good about ourselves. It's not selflessness or compassion whatsoever--it is merely our way of reinterpreting our behavior to perceive ourselves as having a more evolved sense of a survival instinct.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 10:11 PM
This thread went crazy while I was eating delicious fish for dinner.

Fish is not meat. DINNER FAIL.

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 10:13 PM
Careful or I'll gnaw your arm off at ATP.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 10:13 PM
Comparing breast milk to piss and blood isn't fair. We don't bottle up other animals' piss and blood (unless it's in the meat) and sell it at the grocery store.

Mmmm, Duck Blood Soup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czernina).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Czernina.zupa.jpg/200px-Czernina.zupa.jpg

miscorrections
06-23-2009, 10:17 PM
Actually all sorts of blood are commonly sold in ethnic markets.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 10:19 PM
You give humans too much credit, Alchemy. We have proven that we are intrinsically capable of far greater brutality than any animal known to man. The fact that a small percentage of us register their distaste for it as a moral decision is yet another in the long history of abstract rationalizations for an indoctrination into yet another belief structure that serves nothing more than to make us feel good about ourselves. It's not selflessness or compassion whatsoever--it is merely our way of reinterpreting our behavior to perceive ourselves as having a more evolved sense of a survival instinct.

Well, I'm not saying humans register a distaste for it and are naturally moral or good. I'm just saying that humans can register that pain and death are, most likely, immoral, and some have chosen against it, which I agree is a bit silly. I know that it is highly improbable for humans to feel any sympathy for a spider, and that it is crazy to think that humans can all live without eating animals, but it is possible for some people to feel that, and that has been shown over time, by those ridiculous people that turn down a steak, therefore it is in the realm of possibilities. I'm not arguing that the ideologies and philosophies of humans trying to put humanity in a pillar of righteousness are correct, I'm only saying that it is warm-hearted, as opposed to malicious, and mostly I am just explaining how human evolution has allowed us to recognize these things, if we choose to act on them or not has nothing to do with the biology of it.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Actually all sorts of blood are commonly sold in ethnic markets.

Meats like steak are usually packaged with blood at the grocery store... At least, somebody told me that the juice with the steak had blood. It certainly looks like blood. Can anyone confirm that its blood?

JebusLives
06-23-2009, 10:28 PM
I feel that causing physical pain when physical pain isn't necessary is morally wrong. If you don't, that's fine - we just differ on what we consider moral. I can't really argue past that.

marooko
06-23-2009, 10:29 PM
http://media.decider.com/assets/images/events/event/72980/little_shop_of_horrors_jpg_595x325_crop_upscale_q8 5.jpg

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 10:32 PM
I feel that causing physical pain when physical pain isn't necessary is morally wrong. If you don't, that's fine - we just differ on what we consider moral. I can't really argue past that.

Yes. All my arguments are built on the assumption that physical pain is immoral. If you disagree, then my arguments do not stand. I'm making that assumption, because, for the most part, societies tend to develop with prohibitions toward inflicting pain. But I understand that morals are subjective.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 10:33 PM
because i generally don't have room to freeze a bunch of things or keep them around a long time since my current roommates don't leave room in the fridge. also, like i stated, i'd never really thought about saving parts of the meal to be cooked later on in another dish until my mom suggested it over the weekend, so i will try to incorporate that into the future. i used to cook when we first moved in and it was just us two girls, but over time they've been buying more shit that leaves no room in the fridge/freezer and generally are in the kitchen when i want to cook, so it got hard to do on an everyday basis. i'm moving, like i stated above, and look forward to cooking more frequently in the future.

that still doesn't make heathly food more affordable to cook though, it just means i'm saving the same food to cook again later. even though it is rewarding and healthier to cook the healthy/better food, it is still more expensive than unhealthy foods. i am lucky i'm a non-married person without kids, but i couldn't imagine how i'd afford to feed my family with healthy foods if i was. which was my point, those foods need to be cheaper.

And, Ivy, I feel your pain. I generally cook for myself and generally find it to be a problem. Neither my body nor my wallet like it if I eat out (fast food or not) frequently so I am stuck going to the grocery store.

Also: I said "grocery store" - like Sunflower Market, Sprouts, Whole Foods - not supermarket - like Fry's, Safeway, etc. Grocery stores will have the bulk foods and a great selection of cheap vegetables like RT mentioned.

Yes, it is good to learn what will freeze well (mushy, more uniform dishes such as chili and tomato pasta sauces) and what won't, because, yeah, who wants to do a big meal every day? But you can also buy individual fresh (or frozen) fish fillets or you can buy a big package of chicken breasts and just cook one and freeze the others (individually.)


And, yeah, the food will be as healthy as you want it to be. Pick lean meats, poultry and fish. Pick whole grains and lots of vegetables. It's really a good thing.

I can't even fucking eat fast food anymore. Well, sometimes breakfast sandwiches.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 10:37 PM
Meats like steak are usually packaged with blood at the grocery store... At least, somebody told me that the juice with the steak had blood. It certainly looks like blood. Can anyone confirm that its blood?

You are no longer allowed to speak about food and nutrition with any authority.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 10:43 PM
You are no longer allowed to speak about food and nutrition with any authority.

Well I don't know how they process meat, and I never claimed to know. I just eat it.

So I guess that isn't blood. I remember I saw a show one time though, I think it was Dirty Jobs, and they were grinding non-traditional parts of animals into a mush. That's the extent of my knowledge of processing food.

EDIT: Actually! They weren't processing food, I don't think. (or maybe it was animal food) I think it might have been a type of fertilizer?

But I'll be damned if taking anthropology courses for the past four years and writing countless papers on the human race haven't taught me anything about how we behave.

marooko
06-23-2009, 10:48 PM
http://worldofbad.org/reviews/tomatoes/t2.jpg
http://veganpotluck.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/killtomatoattack.jpg

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 10:51 PM
Well, I'm not saying humans register a distaste for it and are naturally moral or good. I'm just saying that humans can register that pain and death are, most likely, immoral, and some have chosen against it, which I agree is a bit silly. I know that it is highly improbable for humans to feel any sympathy for a spider, and that it is crazy to think that humans can all live without eating animals, but it is possible for some people to feel that, and that has been shown over time, by those ridiculous people that turn down a steak, therefore it is in the realm of possibilities. I'm not arguing that the ideologies and philosophies of humans trying to put humanity in a pillar of righteousness are correct, I'm only saying that it is warm-hearted, as opposed to malicious, and mostly I am just explaining how human evolution has allowed us to recognize these things, if we choose to act on them or not has nothing to do with the biology of it.

Morality is not a factor of biological capacity or predisposition. If it were, why is it that so many humans find ways to rationalize absolutely behavior completely contradictory to your precept that pain and death are immoral? Genocide, rape of the wilderness, the systematic pseudo-torture and murder of millions of animals a year just to feed them. Humans kill for pleasure, completely unrelated to their biological needs to survive. How can you possibly say that the "pain and death are immoral" recognition is a true capability of humanity when we are the only species capable of completely denying the immorality of pain and death at the same time?

Human evolution has given us vegetarianism, and genocide.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 10:56 PM
Randy are you learning comma use from Tim?

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 11:00 PM
My comma use is perfectly acceptable. It is a style I have made work for me.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 11:00 PM
Morality is not a factor of biological capacity or predisposition. If it were, why is it that so many humans find ways to rationalize absolutely behavior completely contradictory to your precept that pain and death are immoral? Genocide, rape of the wilderness, the systematic pseudo-torture and murder of millions of animals a year just to feed them. Humans kill for pleasure, completely unrelated to their biological needs to survive. How can you possibly say that the "pain and death are immoral" recognition is a true capability of humanity when we are the only species capable of completely denying the immorality of pain and death at the same time?

Human evolution has given us vegetarianism, and genocide.

I made that assumption, because, for the most part, humans do consider pain and death to be immoral. Because for a discourse about the actions that today's Americans might consider, it would be foolish to ignore that, currently, Americans consider pain and death to be immoral. I understand that morals are subjective, and that there are many instances of humanity having different morals that contradict modern ideas of morality, but the discussion we are having on veganism and vegetarianism is a discussion for today and for our civilization, today. I mean, we all know that mysticism, religion, ideology and all sorts of beliefs have a way of changing what morality is; for example, it's okay to enslave black people if we believe that they are less than us, it's okay to kill Jews if we believe that they are evil, it's okay to kill if it means I'll gain a benefit, be it money or emotional satisfaction. But for today's society, those would be considered bad anomalies in human reasoning, which is why our society (at least, some of it, unfortunately) frowns on racism, prejudice, and selfish murdering; and, today, they also frown upon pain and death. So when I structured my argument, I assumed that all of you would subscribe to the belief that pain and death are immoral things to do, regardless if they've always been, or if humanity has been contradictory.

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 11:00 PM
So boring.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Also stop with the fucking cow genocide question already.

If we stopped breeding/caring for cows then yes, many of them would die BUT the ones that lived would start being selected naturally rather than according to what ranchers/farmers/meat producers think they want.

The ancestors of modern cow were wild animals. They lived and breeded and formed small clay pots with intricately decorated handles just like other species of the time. If we let cows go feral the stronger ones (on average) will survive and (eventually) there will be a powerful new species of cowbeasts roaming the plains.

But that won't happen if we keep them all under control and safe from predators and pick which bulls get to mate with which cows.

Still-ill
06-23-2009, 11:05 PM
http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/46272-1/Wrong_internet.png

wmgaretjax
06-23-2009, 11:05 PM
cowbeasts.... terrifying.

PotVsKtl
06-23-2009, 11:06 PM
http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/46272-1/Wrong_internet.png

Also boring.

mountmccabe
06-23-2009, 11:06 PM
My comma use, is perfectly acceptable. It is a style, I have made work for me.

You forgot a few; I filled them in for you.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 11:09 PM
Pot brings up a good point. I hate anthropology and I wish I minored in screenwriting. I would want to write a B-movie about a virus that infects vegetables that makes people crave meat, and it would be about a community of vegans who are religious about not eating meat, so the virus drives them crazier and crazier, and then some of the people start eating dirt and rocks to survive, and one person eats his hand and bleeds to death... Also, it stars Christian Bale, who plays Farmer Frank, who may have accidental created the virus when he switched to a different gardening fertilizer, or something, and now it is up to him to stop the virus, even though he knows nothing about that sort of stuff.

Also, the virus is played by Bill Nighy.

Alchemy
06-23-2009, 11:11 PM
You forgot a few; I filled them in for you.

Semi-colons are ridiculous.

Still-ill
06-23-2009, 11:12 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MBueN2-Ns34/Regp8TE4AaI/AAAAAAAAAPc/cWi7IszXk7U/s320/semicolon.gif

real talk
06-23-2009, 11:18 PM
and I'm saying you're living in a fantasyland and you have yet to demonstrate a logical basis for "wrong" and that you are inclined to self-loathing.

Pardon the intrusion on your well-rehearsed anti-vegeterian diatribe, but aren't you an avowed Christian?

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 11:38 PM
You forgot a few; I filled them in for you.

I don't even understand what comma usage you were taking issue with. The ", and genocide?" That's a stylistic comma used to indicate a pause. It is acceptable.

JustSteve
06-23-2009, 11:39 PM
4. The human has the ability to survive on an omnivorous diet, vegetarian diet, and vegan diet.

5. The human infant, a result of reproduction, also can survive on all three diets.

show me a picture of a healthy looking baby raised as a vegan.

RotationSlimWang
06-23-2009, 11:39 PM
Pardon the intrusion on your well-rehearsed anti-vegeterian diatribe, but aren't you an avowed Christian?

The fuck does that have to do with anything? If Tom has a moral belief structure he adheres to that is still completely irrelevant to the question of whether there is any such thing as any kind of logical argument for morality.

Sleepingrock
06-24-2009, 12:14 AM
Pot brings up a good point. I hate anthropology and I wish I minored in screenwriting. I would want to write a B-movie about a virus that infects vegetables that makes people crave meat, and it would be about a community of vegans who are religious about not eating meat, so the virus drives them crazier and crazier, and then some of the people start eating dirt and rocks to survive, and one person eats his hand and bleeds to death... Also, it stars Christian Bale, who plays Farmer Frank, who may have accidental created the virus when he switched to a different gardening fertilizer, or something, and now it is up to him to stop the virus, even though he knows nothing about that sort of stuff.

Also, the virus is played by Bill Nighy.

HIJACK!

I'm thinking of doing an Anthropology major
why do you hate it?

humanoid
06-24-2009, 12:24 AM
sorry cows, hamburgers = delicious

amyzzz
06-24-2009, 06:00 AM
PETA thing pisses me off because there is a limited amount of breastmilk available and producing breastmilk can be very difficult and time-consuming, AND IT IS ONLY MEANT FOR THE BABY, not for mass consumption by the adult human population. WTF, man. There are breastmilk BANKS for babies who need breastmilk to survive but can't get it from their mothers for some reason or another.

JebusLives
06-24-2009, 07:14 AM
The fuck does that have to do with anything? If Tom has a moral belief structure he adheres to that is still completely irrelevant to the question of whether there is any such thing as any kind of logical argument for morality.

He's saying we have to defend our moral conviction (that causing pain is immoral) using logic, which is a near-impossible feat that philosophers have been grappling with for centuries. But he gets his morals from a magic sky daddy. Double-standard.

mountmccabe
06-24-2009, 07:21 AM
PETA thing pisses me off because there is a limited amount of breastmilk available and producing breastmilk can be very difficult and time-consuming, AND IT IS ONLY MEANT FOR THE BABY, not for mass consumption by the adult human population. WTF, man. There are breastmilk BANKS for babies who need breastmilk to survive but can't get it from their mothers for some reason or another.

Amy, their point is that cow milk is ONLY MEANT FOR CALVES.


One problem with both of your arguments is that nothing is meant for anything, gah.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 07:31 AM
I was a vegetarian for 6 years because I was repulsed by the idea of grinding a dead animal carcass between my teeth. This repulsion included eating eggs and drinking milk. I'm not sure why, but it just grossed me out. However, I never had any moral qualms about the slaughter of animals.

Then, I had a doctor's appointment and was told that I was severely anemic, and had to start consuming heme-iron (found principally in red meat).

My point: I have none.


Side note: Although I am no longer a vegetarian, drinking milk still, to this day, grosses me out.

TomAz
06-24-2009, 08:00 AM
Pardon the intrusion on your well-rehearsed anti-vegeterian diatribe, but aren't you an avowed Christian?

which makes me not a Jainist. or are you trying to make some other point?

TomAz
06-24-2009, 08:06 AM
He's saying we have to defend our moral conviction (that causing pain is immoral) using logic, which is a near-impossible feat that philosophers have been grappling with for centuries. But he gets his morals from a magic sky daddy. Double-standard.

My point is that there is no logic to veganism and it's a gut feeling based on whatever anthropomorphizing psychological childhood memories. If people want to choose that for themselves, great. Just don't impose it on me.

But I would like someone to tell me why killing a cow to eat it is wrong but there is nothing wrong with squishing a cockroach or swatting a fly or accidentally stepping on an ant. Life is life and death is death, right?

marooko
06-24-2009, 08:11 AM
if causing pain is immoral, please stop this silliness. its causing me pain. thank you moral high grounders.

real talk
06-24-2009, 08:14 AM
I was just pointing out that you are a Christian telling people that they are living in a self loathing fantasy world which makes you a big old hypocrite.Did you tell God you were sorry this week?

See what I mean? But I really don't want to convert you or anybody, I just don't appreciate all the disrespect.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 08:43 AM
I was a vegetarian for 6 years because I was repulsed by the idea of grinding a dead animal carcass between my teeth.

How about (really) fresh meat?


http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Croney9/TysonandHollyfield.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk210/samuraikimonos/thtysonxholyfield.jpg

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n438/bradlee180/biteHolyfieldTyson.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w4/chevyredneck16/beef_its_whats_for_dinner.jpg

paganman7
06-24-2009, 08:44 AM
Gross homie.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 08:48 AM
I do agree...

marooko
06-24-2009, 08:48 AM
sometimes i wanna eat raw meat. not just carpaccio (good stuff), but like a steak while seasoning it.
http://www.risungsgard.com/bilder/jpg/carpaccio.jpg

JebusLives
06-24-2009, 08:56 AM
My point is that there is no logic to veganism and it's a gut feeling based on whatever anthropomorphizing psychological childhood memories. If people want to choose that for themselves, great. Just don't impose it on me.

But I would like someone to tell me why killing a cow to eat it is wrong but there is nothing wrong with squishing a cockroach or swatting a fly or accidentally stepping on an ant. Life is life and death is death, right?

Insects don't have central nervous systems, and we're not sure they even feel pain and stress like a vertebrate does.

I'm not going to impose my beliefs on you... i'm not a PETA fan! Like I said earlier, if you don't think inflicting unnecessary pain on animals is wrong, then I can't really convince you otherwise.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 09:00 AM
Gross homie.

The liquid meat that is used in some fast kitchens is gross.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o55/Jesterx22x/the_taco_bell_secret.jpg

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:01 AM
What if we blast their heads off with a .50 cal.? It would be instant death. No pain.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 09:04 AM
What if we blast their heads off with a .50 cal.? It would be instant death. No pain.


Then howya gunna eat the brains, smart guy?

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:06 AM
i dont now.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 09:12 AM
Then howya gunna eat the brains, smart guy?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/IamMahasoor/gender%20race%20and%20class%20photos%20-%20NOT%20MINE/against_animal_cruelty.jpg

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:13 AM
See now that's just silly. No way would I torture an animal like that. Not cause I can't stomach it, but because it's just crazy.

chairmenmeow47
06-24-2009, 09:26 AM
Excuses. Im not a PETAfan, but im sure there are plenty of vegans in Arizona. You can do it on the cheap too. Lifestyle changes are just a pain in the ass.

that is more what i was getting at. in general, if i want to just run up to the store (and john, unfortunately i mean safeway and not sprouts or sunflower market as those aren't in walking distance) and make dinner, the healthier option is going to be expensive and the shitty food is cheaper. specifically, i am referring to meat. i realize i am a terribly unhealthy person in that i don't eat a lot of vegetables/fruits and tend to eat a lot of meat. but hey, my uncle owns a cattle ranch, it's in my blood and it's definitely something i've made my mind up on. when i go to buy meat, if i want the meat that was raised on a nice farm outside "the jungle" system, it's going to cost me more, bottom line. i can get a pound of your everday ground beef for a hell of a lot cheaper than the better treated stuff. and when you're just buying for yourself, it adds up quick. eggs are another item that get pricey, along with the whole grain options for pasta over your "normal" pasta. or if i want to snack on pistacios or almonds instead of chips, it's going to cost me more. and yes, it may only be pricier by a few bucks, but that adds up quickly. that also may just be the prices at the stores i go to, but i would really have to search (and drive a ways) to find a farmers market, which is going to cost me money in gas too that i'm not using when i walk to my corner store. plus, farmers markets aren't something we really have all over the place here as farmers markets tend to be outdoors and we don't have many outdoor shopping areas here that aren't going to be all in spanish.

if i want to drive far and find a farmer to sell me my food for cheap i probably could, but it would require a serious lifestyle change & planning on my part. i do try when i can, but it's a trade off between walking to the store, getting some excercise, but eating not-so-healthy food or spending a lot of my time & energy researching everything i eat and driving places to get that food. and i also work & go to school & travel a whole lot. realistically i just can't take tupperware containers with me everywhere i go and/or won't have a place to prepare the food even if i did. so those heathly options also need to be readily available in a take out or fast food form. like when i go to the airport i try to find stands with salads & breads instead of getting a meal from a franchise place, but it can be hard to find sometimes. we need more healthy fast options as well.

i just wish healthier food was more accessible/easier and also cheaper. how is it supposed to compete with the unhealthy, cheap & easy to find alternatives? it should be just as easy to find, if not easier. i'm just saying i wish i lived in a society where that was the case.

TomAz
06-24-2009, 09:32 AM
Insects don't have central nervous systems, and we're not sure they even feel pain and stress like a vertebrate does.

I'm not going to impose my beliefs on you... i'm not a PETA fan! Like I said earlier, if you don't think inflicting unnecessary pain on animals is wrong, then I can't really convince you otherwise.

is it just pain now? before it was pain and death.

higgybaby23
06-24-2009, 09:39 AM
Morals and diets don't mix.

I tried being a "moral" vegetarian for a while, even tried to impose my new beliefs on my typical Midwestern family. They thought I was an asshole. I was.

The real problem with the commercial meat industry is it's unsustainability. And, the problem with the average American diet goes far deeper than meat. Far deeper than meat...have fun with that one.

mountmccabe
06-24-2009, 09:43 AM
i do try when i can

That's what's important. Also, small steps. There's no requirement to start doing everything as healthy/kind/etc as possible RIGHT NOW. Slowly work it into your normal routine. Your body probably wouldn't like cutting out fast food cold turkey anyway.

Also the grocery stores I mentioned earlier are farmers market-style stores. They are the way to go. I still go to the Fry's that is closer when I am in a rush or need staples or such but the food I want is better and cheaper at Sprouts or Sunflower Market.

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:44 AM
where do all these morals go when you're talking about republicans? they're lesser beings than cows i take it?

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:45 AM
Your body probably wouldn't like cutting out fast food cold turkey anyway.



but when and if you do, its amazing how horrible it makes you feel if you eat it again.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 09:46 AM
Is PETA as active in Central/South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia as they are here in the land of political correctness?

JebusLives
06-24-2009, 09:48 AM
is it just pain now? before it was pain and death.

In all honesty i'm not sure how I feel about the death part, but it is usually preempted by pain. Initially we were talking about milk, which obviously doesn't involve death. As I said before, I do eat meat but I'm trying to cut down. My biggest concerns:

1) Causing unnecessary pain to the animal (can be mitigated by humane slaughterhouse practices).

2) Environmental impacts of eating meat (methane emissions, soil erosion, water polution).

3) Wasteful (it take 10 units of cow food to create 1 unit of cow meat. There are people starving in ethiopia yada yada).

4) Too much is bad for you (Canada's health guide and your surgeon general say we should eat less anyway).

1-3 are moral issues, 4 comes down to personal choice, but is arguably a moral issue as well (drain on the public health care system, puts your loved ones at risk).

TomAz
06-24-2009, 09:48 AM
i just wish healthier food was more accessible/easier and also cheaper. how is it supposed to compete with the unhealthy, cheap & easy to find alternatives? it should be just as easy to find, if not easier. i'm just saying i wish i lived in a society where that was the case.

this is really true. And it's not just grocery stores. Try running out for a quick lunch on a workday and finding a reasonable place with healthy food. (Not diet or "lite" food. Healthy. Fresh veggies, local produce, etc.) Choices are limited.

mountmccabe
06-24-2009, 09:49 AM
I was a vegetarian for 6 years because I was repulsed by the idea of grinding a dead animal carcass between my teeth. This repulsion included eating eggs and drinking milk. I'm not sure why, but it just grossed me out. However, I never had any moral qualms about the slaughter of animals.

Then, I had a doctor's appointment and was told that I was severely anemic, and had to start consuming heme-iron (found principally in red meat).

My point: I have none.

You could have found your iron in other foods, too.

Same with the comment earlier (by I forget who) about getting all the essential amino acids... sure, it is more difficult to do without meat and/or dairy and/or eggs but you can do it. You just can't go one source on your protein.




Morals and diets don't mix.

I tried being a "moral" vegetarian for a while, even tried to impose my new beliefs on my typical Midwestern family. They thought I was an asshole. I was.

The real problem with the commercial meat industry is it's unsustainability. And, the problem with the average American diet goes far deeper than meat. Far deeper than meat...have fun with that one.

Trying to impose your beliefs on your family/others is being an asshole. Being a vegetarian is not.

I have good frieinds - including a girlfriend, once - that are vegetarians. And I stuck around them because they neither told me what to eat nor cared what I ate.

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:51 AM
so when are we gonna collectively start killing ourselves? or each other?

mountmccabe
06-24-2009, 09:53 AM
this is really true. And it's not just grocery stores. Try running out for a quick lunch on a workday and finding a reasonable place with healthy food. (Not diet or "lite" food. Healthy. Fresh veggies, local produce, etc.) Choices are limited.

Because most people don't care. And most people who are looking for healthy food aren't looking to fast food/quick lunches out. And people have very different ideas on what they mean.

It's a cycle, these places don't exist becuase the ones that pop up don't get patronized.

Also there are some places like that but most of the ones I am thinking of are downtown, not near you or Ivy or me.


But I do feel the pain here. I would certainly like there to be more quick/healthy options around.

chairmenmeow47
06-24-2009, 09:54 AM
this is really true. And it's not just grocery stores. Try running out for a quick lunch on a workday and finding a reasonable place with healthy food. (Not diet or "lite" food. Healthy. Fresh veggies, local produce, etc.) Choices are limited.

this is what made it hard for me to keep up the cooking. i used to cook all the time and stopped eating fast food for awhile. and if i went out to eat with people, i generally only ate salads or didn't eat any of the food at all & simply ate my leftovers back at the office. this was ok for awhile, but when i felt the pressures of school, i simply couldn't keep up. i had to plan to either use the microwave at work before i left or bring with me enough non-refridgerated snacks to tide me over during class. i'm sorry, but 4 hours in class requires a lot more than some pistacios to keep me energized. so i fell back into the fast food habit. when you've gotta run out on a lunch break or grab a quick bite to eat on your way somewhere, you're options for healthy & fresh are pretty much non-existent.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 09:55 AM
You could have found your iron in other foods, too.




Yeah, I tried that homie. I even changed my multivitamin to include 9 mcg of iron. It didn't work. For the last year I was a vegetarian, I was perpetually exhausted and generally felt like crap. My body type/style couldn't be sustained by it.

marooko
06-24-2009, 09:56 AM
if eating veggies is so good, whats the deal with all the supplements?

paganman7
06-24-2009, 09:57 AM
if eating veggies is so good, whats the deal with all the supplements?


Insurance.


edit: When I read your post, I automatically did so with a Jerry Seinfeld voice.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 09:57 AM
if eating veggies is so good, whats the deal with all the supplements?


To make your pee yellow.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 09:59 AM
To make your pee yellow.



True dat. My urine looks like radioactive Mountain Dew.

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 10:00 AM
True dat. My urine looks like radioactive Mountain Dew.
Exactly!

faxman75
06-24-2009, 10:01 AM
It boils down to priorities. If you make eating organic a way of life, you will figure out ways to be prepared to eat the way you want to every day. Whether that means preparing in advance of going to work or stopping by the grocery store before work on lunch hour. It really boils down to being prepared in advance and the grocery stores are your best friend for it but then we can debate farms stands vs grocery stores. Whole Foods/Trader Joes vs shopping at Safeway/Frys/Krogers/Walmart. When it comes to fruits, veggies and nuts how important is it to buy organic?

Suffacated
06-24-2009, 10:03 AM
All this food talk is making me hungry.
Where's the damned roach coach?

TomAz
06-24-2009, 10:09 AM
It boils down to priorities. If you make eating organic a way of life, you will figure out ways to be prepared to eat the way you want to every day. Whether that means preparing in advance of going to work or stopping by the grocery store before work on lunch hour. It really boils down to being prepared in advance and the grocery stores are your best friend for it but then we can debate farms stands vs grocery stores. Whole Foods/Trader Joes vs shopping at Safeway/Frys/Krogers/Walmart. When it comes to fruits, veggies and nuts how important is it to buy organic?

Try doing that but substituting "local" for "organic". Even Whole Foods struggles with local. and I think I've decided that for me, local is more important than organic.

JustSteve
06-24-2009, 10:14 AM
we are fortunate to have a place called growers direct right down the street. all they sell are veggies, fruits, and a small selection of bread and dairy. i can walk out of there with a week's worth of veggies/fruits, some cheese, and milk for a family of 4 for around $30. all the food there is at least half the price of the large grocery stores.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 10:19 AM
I find Sunflower to be exceptionally cheap with great produce. I generally do my shopping at several different places:

Produce: Sunflower Market
Dairy and snacks for my daughter: Trader Joe's
Meat (except chicken): http://www.grasslandbeef.com/StoreFront.bok
Miscellaneous food items: Fry's

JebusLives
06-24-2009, 10:19 AM
Eating local is pretty damn hard here, too... most of the local fruits and veggies are greenhouse grown, so very expensive. I live in a condo so a garden is not an option.

I usually skip the organic stuff... its just too expensive and I don't think it is any healthier. Better for the environment, yeah...

Dr. Lufs-al-ot
06-24-2009, 10:28 AM
http://s0.causes.com/photos/ey/Vz/A4/uj/Ps/8P/IkXJ.jpg

discuss

bobert
06-24-2009, 10:30 AM
Claiming that humans shouldn't eat meat because 'we have the capacity to know better' is based on the same fantasy -- that humans are somehow outside of and different from and superior to nature -- that fueled the industrial revolution belief that humans should exploit and 'tame' the environment because 'we can'.

Wait a minute, I can't tell if your serious or not. I would think any logical person would draw the opposite conclusion; that eating meat - and thus supporting the industrial meat industry - would be more in keeping with the rape and plunder mentality of the industrial revolution.

marooko
06-24-2009, 10:33 AM
misunderstood.

higgybaby23
06-24-2009, 10:36 AM
Trying to impose your beliefs on your family/others is being an asshole. Being a vegetarian is not.

I have good frieinds - including a girlfriend, once - that are vegetarians. And I stuck around them because they neither told me what to eat nor cared what I ate.

My wife is vegetarian. We prepare and cook almost all our food at home, dining out only for fun or necessity. This gives me a vegetarian diet at least 90% of the time. So, I agree with what you are saying about belief systems and relationships. I do contend that moral vegetarians are usually assholes though.

I think this hits on the larger topic at hand. Can people coexist with such diametrically opposed beliefs? Or, will we one day see a bloody battle between veggies vs. meaties?

http://www.cheezies-pizza.com/Images/MEAT%20VS%20VEGI.jpg

Dr. Lufs-al-ot
06-24-2009, 10:39 AM
god i hope its a battle to the death

we'll eat you veggies after we win

TomAz
06-24-2009, 10:40 AM
I find Sunflower to be exceptionally cheap with great produce. I generally do my shopping at several different places:

Produce: Sunflower Market
Dairy and snacks for my daughter: Trader Joe's
Meat (except chicken): http://www.grasslandbeef.com/StoreFront.bok
Miscellaneous food items: Fry's

I just checked, the closest Sunflower to my house is 19 miles. that's a bit far for lettuce and tomatoes.


I usually skip the organic stuff... its just too expensive and I don't think it is any healthier. Better for the environment, yeah...

I think this is accurate and is what got me to start looking for local. Local is also much better for the environment plus the food tastes better.

BlackSwan
06-24-2009, 10:45 AM
this is cockamamie horse shit, the modern equivalent to the medieval hair shirt. Killing is natural. The lion kills the gazelle. the human kills the cow. to claim "we have the capacity to know better" is tripe. It presumes that killing the cow is wrong which is then used to prove the point that killing the cow is wrong.


My point is that there is no logic to veganism and it's a gut feeling based on whatever anthropomorphizing psychological childhood memories. If people want to choose that for themselves, great. Just don't impose it on me.

But I would like someone to tell me why killing a cow to eat it is wrong but there is nothing wrong with squishing a cockroach or swatting a fly or accidentally stepping on an ant. Life is life and death is death, right?

There is a huge difference between a lion killing a gazelle for survival, and the human race creating a meat industry that breeds millions of animals for slaughter and simultaneously destroys the environment on literally every level possible.


Feather and Barbara tried to argue using this, and I just tuned it out. I agree with Randy and Tom on this. To say that we would be better off, and it's morally right is pretty much self righteousness to the definition of the word.

Even if is true?

Couple fun facts for you:

- Animals raised for food produce 130 times as much excrement as the entire U.S. population and The EPA reports that chicken, hog, and cattle excrement have polluted 35,000 miles of rivers in 22 states and contaminated groundwater in 17 states.

- It takes 5,000 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat, while growing 1 pound of wheat only requires 25 gallons.

- All the wild animals and trees in more than 2.9 million acres of rainforest were destroyed in the 2004-2005 crop season in order to grow crops that are used to feed chickens and other animals in factory farms.

It doesn't matter if killing cows is wrong. The meat industry is an inefficient, unnecessary burden on our world that affects everyone.



Then, I had a doctor's appointment and was told that I was severely anemic, and had to start consuming heme-iron (found principally in red meat).

My point: I have none.


You have a shitty doctor. There are other ways to get heme-iron in your diet.

paganman7
06-24-2009, 10:45 AM
I just checked, the closest Sunflower to my house is 19 miles. that's a bit far for lettuce and tomatoes.







Sucks. I live within 800 meters of a Sunflower Market.

TomAz
06-24-2009, 10:47 AM
The meat industry is an is an inefficient, unnecessary burden on our world that affects everyone.

This is a far superior argument that I can't disagree with.

TomAz
06-24-2009, 10:47 AM
Sucks. I live within 800 meters of a Sunflower Market.

I forgot that Tucson was a metric town.

mountmccabe
06-24-2009, 10:59 AM
Try doing that but substituting "local" for "organic". Even Whole Foods struggles with local. and I think I've decided that for me, local is more important than organic.

I find both Sprouts and Sunflower Market to be better at local than Whole Foods. They've even had "LOCAL!" signs showing up pointing out which vegetables and other foods are local.

Whole Foods will have more organic and a larger selection of meat/poultry/fish but both Sprouts and Sunflower Market are usually fine for me on both fronts (partially because I, similarly, don't target organic.)

And Trader Joe's really shouldn't keep coming up in this conversation. Less produce that is mostly prepackaged anyway, less meat/poultry/fish that is mostly prepared into things anyway, and no bulk foods. I don't want to have to buy three crowns of brocolli and it'sn't any cheaper than going out if you're buying their almond apple stuff pork loin (that almost reeled me in on Sunday.)

TomAz
06-24-2009, 10:59 AM
I forgot about Sprouts. There is a Sprouts not far from me.