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BlackSwan
06-09-2009, 10:59 AM
A place to let people know how their continued apathy affects the environment...



Large Mammal Migrations Are Vanishing

(June 9) -- Africa is home to spectacular migration events. Large mammals ranging from Grant's gazelles to blue wildebeests pound their hooves across vast tracts of land as the seasons change.

New research suggests, however, that migrations across the continent might be going extinct.

For the first time, scientists have compiled and analyzed data on all of the world's largest and definitive migrating land mammals. The researchers looked at the migration history for a group of ungulates, all of them hoofed mammals, weighing more than 44 pounds. The data suggest that one-quarter of these mammals no longer migrate, and human development is responsible for the decline, said Grant Harris, co-author of the study.

In many cases, data on these animals is simply nonexistent.

"I thought, 'Oh my gosh, there's nothing here at all,' and if there's nothing here for these large mammals, this bodes poorly for other species," Harris told LiveScience.

Harris, a conservation biologist, conducted the research while with the Center for Biodiversity and Conservation at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. He is now at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Albuquerque, N.M. The report was published in the April edition of the journal Endangered Species Research.

Some already done

Large mammals such as the wildebeest or bison depend on green vegetation, like grass, for survival. They live in herds that are too large to depend on a single location for food, so as the seasons change, and rainfall drifts or snow melts, new vegetation grows and the herd tracks these flourishes. But these patterns are unpredictable, so migrations rarely follow a set path, leaving some migrations unnoticed by even experienced researchers.

To understand more about the current status of migrations, Harris and his colleagues focused on population numbers, migration history and known threats for 24 migratory ungulates — 14 in Africa, 7 in Eurasia and 4 North America, (the caribou/reindeer Rangifer tarandus is found in both Eurasia and North America).

The researchers found that for six of these species — the springbok, black wildebeest, blesbok, kulan, scimitar horned oryx and quagga (extinct) — mass migrations either no longer occur, their current status is unknown, or the species is recently extinct.

Africa is home to five of the six mammals that no longer migrate.

What's wrong

Most populations lack basic data such as herd numbers, migration distance or routes traveled, and many reports are over a decade old. The new study provides a framework to guide future conservation efforts as scientists fill in the gaps and devise strategies to preserve migrations, which are sometimes not as obvious as a herd of wildebeest, said Stuart Pimm, a conservation biologist at Duke University who was not involved with the study.

Threats are listed for 20 mass migrants in previous studies. Hunting or poaching is listed as a threat for 17. Most animals migrate across national and park borders, where fencing or roads can block access to food or water. Some conservationists have advocated placing migrating species within parks, but because migrations can extend beyond park boundaries, agricultural and other types of development on the periphery can cut off food and water access. Parks themselves are also fenced, which blocks migration and confines species. This can then aid poachers.

A one-size-fits-all solution for protecting migrations doesn't exist, Pimm said. With so little research on the animals themselves, even less has focused on conservation. But most scientists think it boils down to filling in data on migrations and then finding a way for humans to develop landscapes in a way that has a gentler impact on wildlife.

"You can't even think about solutions if you haven't thought about the problems," Pimm said.

http://news.aol.com/article/large-mammal-migrations-disappearing/520190?icid=main|aimzones|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fn ews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Flarge-mammal-migrations-disappearing%2F520190

This one actually sounds kind of cool, but still sucks...


Giant Jellyfish Are Taking Over The Ocean

June 8, 2009 -- Giant jellyfish like this one are taking over parts of the world's oceans as overfishing and other human activities open windows of opportunity for them to prosper, say researchers.

In this photo, a diver is attaching a sensor to track a monster Echizen jellyfish, which has a body almost 5 feet across, off the coast of northern Japan.

Jellyfish are normally kept in check by fish, which eat small jellyfish and compete for jellyfish food such as zooplankton, researchers said. But, with overfishing, jellyfish numbers are increasing.

These huge creatures can burst through fishing nets, as well as destroy local fisheries with their taste for fish eggs and larvae.

Anthony Richardson of CSIRO Marine & Atmospheric Research and colleagues reported their findings in the journal Trends in Ecology and Evolution to coincide with World Oceans Day.

They say climate change could also cause jellyfish populations to grow. The team believes that for the first time, water conditions could lead to what they call a "jellyfish stable state," in which jellyfish rule the oceans.

The combination of overfishing and high levels of nutrients in the water has been linked to jellyfish blooms. Nitrogen and phosphorous in run-off cause red phytoplankton blooms, which create low-oxygen dead zones where jellyfish survive, but fish can't, researchers said.

"(There is) a jellyfish called Nomura, which is the biggest jellyfish in the world. It can weigh 200 kilograms (440 pounds), as big as a sumo wrestler and is 2 meters (6.5 feet) in diameter," Richardson said.

Richardson said jellyfish numbers are increasing in Southeast Asia, the Black Sea, the Gulf of Mexico and the North Sea.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/slideshows/monster-jellyfish.html

menikmati
06-09-2009, 11:09 AM
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/images/060119_jellyfish.jpg
That's a big jellyfish.

amyzzz
06-09-2009, 11:10 AM
This was an interesting program on Diane Rehm yesterday


10:00The State of the Oceans
The head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration gives an update on the state of the oceans. She explains how climate change is affecting the Pacific and Atlantic and what the administration plans to do about over-fished waters.


http://wamu.org/programs/dr/09/06/08.php#26162

stinkbutt
06-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Good

Fuck Nature

superfiction
06-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Good

Fuck Nature

im over it. should we start worrying about space pollution now or later

zenidogx
06-09-2009, 11:15 AM
im over it. should we start worrying about space pollution now or later

hipster.

bug on your lip
06-09-2009, 11:17 AM
i was watching Fox News yesterday and i guess everything's actually in pretty decent shape...

i guess those "typical tree-hugging wackos" are up to their old tricks again

amyzzz
06-09-2009, 11:23 AM
im over it. should we start worrying about space pollution now or later
I haven't heard about any plans to get rid of all the space junk orbitting around the Earth. That's a real problem for when NASA (or anyone) launches something into space.

higgybaby23
06-09-2009, 11:25 AM
http://reprolabels.com/gallery/235.jpg

stinkbutt
06-09-2009, 11:26 AM
good

fuck space too

Young blood
06-09-2009, 11:28 AM
I constantly worry about space.

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 11:29 AM
We still don't know the true extent of human effects on global warming.

Young blood
06-09-2009, 11:30 AM
Im not part of that "we", I know everything.

BlackSwan
06-09-2009, 11:32 AM
We still don't know the true extent of human effects on global warming.

What are you implying here?

Mr.Nipples
06-09-2009, 11:34 AM
boil the ocean

BlackSwan
06-09-2009, 12:17 PM
I wonder why the media has stopped covering Swing Flu? I'm sure it has nothing to do with this:



Swine Flu and Factory Farming

The way that our food is produced may have played a role in the recent outbreak of swine flu. Factory farms of hogs, which keep thousands of animals in close quarters, allow disease to spread quickly from hog to hog before making the jump to humans.

Says David Kirby of the Huffington Post:

For years, leading scientists around the world have worried that large-scale, indoor swine "factories" would become breeding grounds for new pathogens that could more easily infect humans and then spread out rapidly in the general population - threatening to become a global pandemic.

We know that hog workers in Europe and North America are far more likely than others to be infected with potentially lethal pathogens such as MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus), drug-resistant E. coli and Salmonella, and of course, swine influenza. Many scientists also believe that people who work inside CAFOs are more at risk of contracting and spreading these and other "zoonotic" diseases than those working in smaller-scale operations, with outdoor pens or pasture and far lower animal density.

Free-range pork farms don't carry the same risks to human health.

But, what about traditional outdoor farms? Aren't those animals even more susceptible to wild type viruses than animals kept indoors, as industry claims? "Well, let's say that animals in confinement are ten times less likely to be infected by wild animals," said [Ellen Silbergeld, professor of environmental health sciences at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health], "But there are 100 times as many of them. You do the math."

Grist says the outbreak could be linked to a farm run by Smithfield, the largest producer of pork in the world, though officials are still unsure, and the company has denied this. If the outbreak is linked to factory farms, it will provoke a hearty discussion about how our food is produced.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/fresh-greens/2009/04/27/swine-flu-and-factory-farming.html

amyzzz
06-09-2009, 12:19 PM
If the outbreak is linked to factory farms, it will provoke a hearty discussion about how our food is produced.
YES. I heard on the news today that there are 450 confirmed cases of swine flu in my state.

chairmenmeow47
06-09-2009, 12:22 PM
giant jellyfish?!?! my nightmares are becomming a reality.

i am a huge supporter of the space program, but it is amazing how much more we know about outer space than our own oceans.

marooko
06-09-2009, 12:25 PM
eat a bullet. it will solve many problems. and, you wont have to worry about any it doesn't solve. we all win.

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 12:26 PM
There's no solid evidence that swine flu has anything to do with that Smithfield farm.

BlackSwan
06-09-2009, 12:30 PM
There's no solid evidence that swine flu has anything to do with that Smithfield farm.

But there is solid evidence that swine flu has to do with factory farming...


Swine Flu Ancestor Born on U.S. Factory Farms

Scientists have traced the genetic lineage of the new H1N1 swine flu to a strain that emerged in 1998 in U.S. factory farms, where it spread and mutated at an alarming rate. Experts warned then that a pocket of the virus would someday evolve to infect humans, perhaps setting off a global pandemic.

The new findings challenge recent protests by pork industry leaders and U.S., Mexican and United Nations agriculture officials that industrial farms shouldn’t be implicated in the new swine flu, which has killed up to 176 people and on Thursday was declared an imminent pandemic by the World Health Organization.

“Industrial farms are super-incubators for viruses,” said Bob Martin, former executive director of the Pew Commission on Industrial Animal Farm Production, and a long-time critic of the so-called “contained animal feeding operations.”

As Wired.com reported on Tuesday, geneticists studying the composition of viruses taken from swine flu victims described it as the product of a DNA swap between North American and Eurasian swine flu strains.

On Wednesday, Columbia University biomedical informaticist Raul Rabadan added new information on the virus’ family history in a posting to ProMed, a public health mailing list. His description paralleled that of other researchers who had analyzed the new strains, but with an extra bit of detail. Six of the genes in swine flu looked to be descended from “H1N2 and H3N2 swine viruses isolated since 1998.”

Experts contacted by Wired.com agreed with Rabadan’s analysis. For researchers who track the evolution of influenza viruses, the news was chilling.


H3N2 — the letters denote specific gene variants that code for replication-enhancing enzymes — is the name of a hybrid first identified in North Carolina in 1998, the tail end of a decade which saw the state’s hog production rise from two million to 10 million, even as the number of farms dropped. H3N2 originated in a relatively benign swine flu strain first identified in 1918, but had absorbed new genes from bird and human flus.

These new genes provided replication advantages that allowed the hybrid to permeate densely packed pig farms whose inhabitants were routinely shipped across the United States. That rapid replication rate also increased the chances of strains evolving in ways that allowed them to evade hog immune systems.

Within a year, exposures topped 90 percent in several heartland states. A retrospective news account in Science said that “after years of stability, the North American swine flu virus had jumped on an evolutionary fast track.”

At the genetic level, the years that followed remain a mystery — hog flus are poorly monitored, compared to human influenza. But eventually an H3N2 spawn merged with a strain of Eurasian pig flu, producing the swine flu variant that’s now infecting humans.

At an environmental level, the conditions which shaped H3N2 and H1N2 evolution, and increased the variants’ chances of taking a human-contagious form, are well understood. High-density animal production facilities came to dominate the U.S. pork industry during the late 20th century, and have been adopted around the world. Inside them, pigs are packed so tightly that they cannot turn, and literally stand in their own waste.

Diseases travel rapidly through such immunologically stressed populations, and travel with the animals as they are shuttled throughout the United States between birth and slaughter. That provides ample opportunity for strains to mingle and recombine. An ever-escalating array of industry-developed vaccines confer short-term protection, but at the expense of provoking flu to evolve in unpredictable ways.

The Pew commission concluded that this system created an “increased chance for a strain to emerge that can infect and spread in humans.” Scientists and public health experts have said the same thing for years, in even starker terms.

In 2003, the American Public Health Association called for a ban on contained animal feeding operations. One year later, St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital virologist Richard Webby, one of the original chroniclers of H3N2’s emergence, called the U.S. swine population “an increasingly important reservoir of viruses with human pandemic potential.” United States Department of Agriculture researcher Amy Vincent reportedly said that vaccine-driven evolution created a “potential for pandemic influenza emergence in North America.”

Officials and the pork industry argued this week that a direct link hadn’t been found to pigs, and that the new flu strain had yet to be found in farm animals or workers, both in the United States and at a giant hog factory near the outbreak’s epicenter in La Gloria, Mexico. Owned by a subsidiary of Smithfield Foods, the largest U.S. pork producer and a notorious polluter, the factory processes one million hogs each year.

As of now, neither swine flu nor its close relatives have been found anywhere. But “that probably says more about the lack of sampling in pig flu than anything else,” said Andrew Rambaut, a University of Edinburgh viral geneticist who has studied swine flu. “We don’t sample nearly the complete diversity of pig flu around the world. Most outbreaks go unstudied.”

On Thursday, Reuters called concern with “evil factory farms in Mexico” one of many “wild theories,” on a par with a conspiracy between Al Qaeda and Mexican drug cartels. Indeed, the location may yet prove coincidental. But absence of evidence at the factory and elsewhere is not evidence of absence.

The new swine flu could have emerged in a myriad number of ways, passing between any number of birds and pigs and people, at locations across North America, during its evolutionary journey. It may well prove impossible to pinpoint exactly where it first emerged or became infectious to people. But most of its genes are almost certainly part of a North American industrial virus lineage long expected to produce pandemic variants like this one.

“We haven’t found evidence of infected pigs,” said Ian Lipkin, a Columbia University epidemiologist and member of the World Health Organization’s surveillance network. “But even if we never find that smoking pig, we can surmise that this is probably where it came from.”

The circumstances “are certainly enough to warrant asking questions,” said Lipkin. “The question, then, is how deeply do you want to look to try to find the evidence?”

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/swineflufarm/

marooko
06-09-2009, 12:32 PM
I wish the world could commit suicide. I'm sure it would have done so already.

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I stand semi-corrected.

superfiction
06-09-2009, 12:36 PM
http://reprolabels.com/gallery/235.jpg

all hail galvatron?

elChurro
06-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Check this out if you haven't already... http://www.youtube.com/user/homeproject?blend=5&ob=4

Young blood
06-09-2009, 12:37 PM
I wish the world could commit suicide. I'm sure it would have done so already.

http://www.etherbomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/eth_033_emo_mexican.jpg

CapZLock
06-09-2009, 01:13 PM
I KNOW HOW
TO COPY AND
PASTE ENTIRE
ARTICLES
IN YOUR FACE!!

Suffacated
06-09-2009, 07:01 PM
We still don't know the true extent of human effects on global warming.



And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.


http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww73/spewker/Totally%20Random/cowfarts.jpg

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVtoY5vAf0U&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVtoY5vAf0U&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 07:03 PM
You drive a fucking tractor.

BlackSwan
06-09-2009, 07:19 PM
I am glad a real scientist came in here to set me straight.

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 07:23 PM
And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.
[/YT]

I was being totally sarcastic. You're a fucking moron if you think human activities aren't affecting the Earth's climate.

Hannahrain
06-09-2009, 07:24 PM
Chop that just before "if" and it might be a little more effective.

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 07:25 PM
What does everyone think about geoengineering? I think it is a terrible terrible idea and if history is any indication we will fuck it up really bad.

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 07:26 PM
How much they are affecting the Earth and whether it is enough to send us over the top is a reasonable conversation. Dumb hippies eat dirt and shit palindromes is more of a shut the fuck up situation.

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 07:26 PM
Chop that just before "if" and it might be a little more effective.

fixed

Hannahrain
06-09-2009, 07:31 PM
I meant end it after "moron". Just before "if".

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 07:34 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/a2c9at.gif

SFChrissy
06-09-2009, 07:36 PM
If a variety of ethnic teenagers can come to the beach I live by and leave their empty beer cans, candy wrappers and cigar tips on the beach during hi tide while they go get some grub before leaving back to where ever they came from what makes you think the world's occupants are gonna clean the mess they've made!!!

MissingPerson
06-09-2009, 07:39 PM
Having grown up on a farm, I'd like to state with authority that the process of meat production is environmentally appalling in about a billion different ways at once, never bloody mind global warming. Everything, from the local food chain to the water table itself, suffers from meat production and the processes that support it.

The "climate change" conversation is just one big element of what's wrong with our attitude to farming, and it's a smokescreen. The structures we have in place are all interdependent and unsustainable. What goes first - climate, oil, deforestation/soil erosion, mineral values...hell, it might even be bees - barely matters, but it's weird to me that nobody outside of agricultural circles seems to be aware that there's anything other than weather to worry about.

But whatever. Farting cows.

Hannahrain
06-09-2009, 07:43 PM
And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.


There's a giant gaping vortex between holier-than-thou people who claim to be 100% earth-friendly and people who recognize that the decisions they make on a daily basis affect the climate that we live in and should be considered with reasonable foresight. Nobody expects you to be a fucking saint. But, it doesn't change your life much to rinse plastic silverware or sort your recycling or throw your wrapper into a trash bin instead of on the ground. If that's too much of a task for you, I'm happy to consider you a member of an older generation whose ideas will hopefully die out when they do.


If a variety of ethnic teenagers can come to the beach I live by and leave their empty beer cans, candy wrappers and cigar tips on the beach during hi tide while they go get some grub before leaving back to where ever they came from what makes you think the world's occupants are gonna clean the mess they've made!!!


Do you read your words once they've been written?

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 07:47 PM
If a variety of ethnic teenagers can come to the beach I live by and leave their empty beer cans, candy wrappers and cigar tips on the beach during hi tide while they go get some grub before leaving back to where ever they came from what makes you think the world's occupants are gonna clean the mess they've made!!!

For extra good luck.

Suffacated
06-09-2009, 07:48 PM
You drive a fucking tractor.



True...
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PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 07:51 PM
I have been to a number of tractor pulls. Mostly for the demolition derby.

Suffacated
06-09-2009, 08:12 PM
I was being totally sarcastic. You're a fucking moron if you think human activities aren't affecting the Earth's climate.

I never said that human activities aren't affecting the Earth's climate.
I do what I can when I can to conserve and recycle. I also eat beef and drive tractors and trucks used to drill for and provide the Coachella Valley with its drinking water. You want to see how human activities have affected the ground that separates us from our drinking water? You want to talk "environment" and see how pollution really effects our water table? Come to work with me form a day. I could show you things that the public doesn't need to see.
Oh.....and I'm not just any fucking moron.....

Young blood
06-09-2009, 08:13 PM
If a variety of ethnic teenagers can come to the beach I live by and leave their empty beer cans, candy wrappers and cigar tips on the beach during hi tide while they go get some grub before leaving back to where ever they came from what makes you think the world's occupants are gonna clean the mess they've made!!!

I knew it was the minorities fault.

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 08:14 PM
I never said that human activities aren't affecting the Earth's climate.
I do what I can when I can to conserve and recycle. I also eat beef and drive tractors and trucks used to drill for and provide the Coachella Valley with its drinking water. You want to see how human activities have affected the ground that separates us from our drinking water? You want to talk "environment" and see how pollution really effects our water table? Come to work with me form a day. I could show you things that the public doesn't need to see.
Oh.....and I'm not just any fucking moron.....

Talking about climate change. Not water pollution.

Suffacated
06-09-2009, 08:21 PM
Having grown up on a farm, I'd like to state with authority that the process of meat production is environmentally appalling in about a billion different ways at once, never bloody mind global warming. Everything, from the local food chain to the water table itself, suffers from meat production and the processes that support it.

The "climate change" conversation is just one big element of what's wrong with our attitude to farming, and it's a smokescreen. The structures we have in place are all interdependent and unsustainable. What goes first - climate, oil, deforestation/soil erosion, mineral values...hell, it might even be bees - barely matters, but it's weird to me that nobody outside of agricultural circles seems to be aware that there's anything other than weather to worry about.

But whatever. Farting cows.

Then you know all about the piss/shit ponds that are found at any dairy or hog/cow farm. And people wonder why Chinos water tastes like shit?

Suffacated
06-09-2009, 08:22 PM
Talking about climate change. Not water pollution.

See, I am a fucking moron.

BROKENDOLL
06-09-2009, 09:29 PM
And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.


http://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww73/spewker/Totally%20Random/cowfarts.jpg

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVtoY5vAf0U&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IVtoY5vAf0U&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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That's it! Fuck it, I'm off to live my life floating around the ocean like some 30 gal. Hefty Trashbag! Hell, I'll take my glowsticks too and we'll see who makes your BBQ Beef Ribs the next time, Babycakes!

PotVsKtl
06-09-2009, 09:40 PM
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2009/06/Goat_RAYMONDS_450x300.jpg

bmack86
06-09-2009, 10:19 PM
I had a lady tell me at a grocery store recently that there is no more ozone layer. And that it was all because of Deet. Communes fuck with people.

indietron
06-09-2009, 10:35 PM
I'd like to turn this thread around and talk about the things we can do to help our environment :)

IMO, solar is the future. I work for a solar energy company, so i am biased, but I have learned so much about the processes and how available it is. Think about it... we have an unlimited supply of energy being given to us, all we have to do is harness it. It is estimated that the amount of sunlight that hits the Earth's surface in one hour is enough to power the entire world for a year!

Here is a little foundation that I found interesting...
http://www.desertec.org/

menikmati
06-09-2009, 10:38 PM
good luck...

Wheres the beef?
06-09-2009, 10:47 PM
I'd like to turn this thread around and talk about the things we can do to help our environment :)

IMO, solar is the future. I work for a solar energy company, so i am biased, but I have learned so much about the processes and how available it is. Think about it... we have an unlimited supply of energy being given to us, all we have to do is harness it. It is estimated that the amount of sunlight that hits the Earth's surface in one hour is enough to power the entire world for a year!

Here is a little foundation that I found interesting...
http://www.desertec.org/

Solar alone can't do it. It's a small part of the machine. But I am a fan of solar.

RotationSlimWang
06-10-2009, 01:10 AM
Hear that everybody? Kingsblend wants you to know that HE knows solar can't do it.

fikus222
06-10-2009, 01:55 AM
Welcome to my world. I've just completed the first year of a master's program at the University of Washington's School of Marine Affairs. Talk about a downer each and every day in class.

One thing you must realize, almost as much oxygen is created by the world's oceans as is by all of the world's forests. As our ocean absorbs more carbon it becomes more acidic, which dissolves the critters' shells that produce said oxygen. Long story short, we may be in a world of hurt.

Oh yeah, the world's fisheries are fuked too and a sh!t ton of nations rely upon protein gleaned from the sea.

As the world's oceans' temperature continues to rise, say goodbye to our reefs and the ecosystems dependent upon them as well.

As I said, nothing but good news.

chairmenmeow47
06-10-2009, 08:21 AM
Having grown up on a farm, I'd like to state with authority that the process of meat production is environmentally appalling in about a billion different ways at once, never bloody mind global warming. Everything, from the local food chain to the water table itself, suffers from meat production and the processes that support it.

The "climate change" conversation is just one big element of what's wrong with our attitude to farming, and it's a smokescreen. The structures we have in place are all interdependent and unsustainable. What goes first - climate, oil, deforestation/soil erosion, mineral values...hell, it might even be bees - barely matters, but it's weird to me that nobody outside of agricultural circles seems to be aware that there's anything other than weather to worry about.

But whatever. Farting cows.

*round of applause*

SFChrissy
06-10-2009, 08:41 AM
I knew it was the minorities fault.well it sure wasn't a bunch of white kids who left their shit on the beach. They were latino's which I am aswell...however, they sure didn't anticiipate me picking up their garbage, walking over to taco bell and leaving it in the middle of their table while they ate their 79cent tacos!!!

My point is don't come to the beach if your gonna leave your trash for the locals or the beach coalition to clean up. Would you like for me to come to your back yard and leave my garbage on your door step???

bug on your lip
06-10-2009, 08:42 AM
i could go for a steak right now

medium rare

SFChrissy
06-10-2009, 08:45 AM
Do you read your words once they've been written?Sure did...was there something in my statement that wasn't clear to you...

bug on your lip
06-10-2009, 08:49 AM
http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/cat-fight-sheila-smart.jpg

JebusLives
06-10-2009, 09:07 AM
And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.


I assume from your confident tone that you have spent most of your life studying the climate. I am constantly shocked by how people with zero exposure to any actual research on the subject can be so confident that it is all a sham, brought to us by the "big environment" lobby.

Given that I am also not an expert in the field, I will defer to those who are. And virtually all climatologists, geologists and ecologists tell me that you are most likely dead wrong, and furthermore that your dangerous ideas are going to cause a lot of suffering.

You really think all those afformentioned brainiacs are unaware that the climate has changed previously?? You think this is some great achiles heal to the whole AGW theory? Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds??

Suffacated
06-10-2009, 05:56 PM
I assume from your confident tone that you have spent most of your life studying the climate. I am constantly shocked by how people with zero exposure to any actual research on the subject can be so confident that it is all a sham, brought to us by the "big environment" lobby. and furthermore that your dangerous ideas are going to cause a lot of suffering........Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds??

I have spent very little time studying anything.
What I have is hands on experience working with many different geologists and biologists while taking core or water samples and the mapping of the valleys seismic fault zones. The holes and trenches I dig have very little to do with the climate but everything to do with our always changing environment.
So...zero exposure? Maybe a little more than that.
Sham? Not all of it. But then again, show me any kind of big lobby that doesn't have some kind of ulterior motive.
My dangerous ideas are not meant to cause suffering to anyone. If people are that stupid, maybe they should have done their homework.
I try to post ideas to get people to think. I stir up the pot so us under educated people might learn something from all the highly educated people.
Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it? Realize? Rodger that.
I only post what I want someone to read.

Wheres the beef?
06-10-2009, 07:17 PM
i could go for a steak right now

medium rare

Why cook it at all? The cow's right there. Just go over and squirt some ketchup on it and put two buns over it and have at it.

chairmenmeow47
06-11-2009, 08:45 AM
PANDEMIC

marooko
06-11-2009, 08:49 AM
if we post in here, are we saving the planet?

also, im gonna rip a massive one because i purchased carbon credits this morning. HELL YES!!

Cheddar's Cousin
06-11-2009, 09:09 AM
... And virtually all climatologists, geologists and ecologists tell me that you are most likely dead wrong, and furthermore that your dangerous ideas are going to cause a lot of suffering.



Actually, virtually all evidence indicates that Suff. is exactly right. The Earth has obviously undergone several warming phases (warmer than the rates we are seeing now) and ice ages. These all occured long before industrialization.

Do we need to be good stewards? Of course we do. Can we actually control the cooling/warming trends of the Earth? Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds?

marooko
06-11-2009, 09:14 AM
man is all powerful. he can do ANYTHING!!! lets reverse the earths rotation and go back in time. a few years after the last ice age. that way we'll have thousands of years before the next one, and a longer time to sell people on the fact that we can stop it.

RotationSlimWang
06-11-2009, 09:17 AM
The Earth will fix our asses before we can destroy it. We only have another century or so max before catastrophic loss of life commences one way or another. Things will right themselves.

marooko
06-11-2009, 09:34 AM
no way dude, we can stop it. we just gotta love and understand each other.


ass busting update: i need to purchase more credits. there was more in there than i thought.

SFChrissy
06-11-2009, 09:45 AM
The Earth will fix our asses before we can destroy it. We only have another century or so max before catastrophic loss of life commences one way or another. Things will right themselves.
Yayyy...I'll encourage my kids to not have kids so their children won't have to suffer. In the mean time bring on the year round summer weather!!!

JebusLives
06-11-2009, 09:48 AM
Actually, virtually all evidence indicates that Suff. is exactly right. The Earth has obviously undergone several warming phases (warmer than the rates we are seeing now) and ice ages. These all occured long before industrialization.

Do we need to be good stewards? Of course we do. Can we actually control the cooling/warming trends of the Earth? Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds?

*Sigh* yes the earth has undergone many climatic shifts. This isn't debated, and frankly has no bearing on whether or not carbon dioxide emissions are affecting the climate. If you're implying that it is normal and therefore we shouldn't be concerned, please understand that these shifts in the past have been associated with mass extinction, flooding and chaotic weather patterns. Widespread famine, disease and displacement are anticipated. Research indicates this situation is possible to avoid, and I think we should make the effort.

Every major scientific organization on the planet backs the research on anthropogenic climate change (except for the American Petroleum Geologists, amusingly enough). I'm not going to list them here, but you should google it before making such grossly incorrect statements. If you think it doesn't "seem likely" but haven't actually read the research, you're talking out of your ass.

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 09:52 AM
Why cook it at all? The cow's right there. Just go over and squirt some ketchup on it and put two buns over it and have at it.
I'd advise atleast searing it lightly first. Otherwise, you risk the damn thing farting with your first bite.

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Yayyy...I'll encourage my kids to not have kids so their children won't have to suffer. In the mean time bring on the year round summer weather!!!
Whoa now, HOLD THE FUCKING THERMOSTAT! There will be no year 'round summer weather goin' on if I have to stay in this God Forsaken desert, thank you very much!


*Sigh* yes the earth has undergone many climatic shifts. This isn't debated, and frankly has no bearing on whether or not carbon dioxide emissions are affecting the climate. If you're implying that it is normal and therefore we shouldn't be concerned, please understand that these shifts in the past have been associated with mass extinction, flooding and chaotic weather patterns. Widespread famine, disease and displacement are anticipated. Research indicates this situation is possible to avoid, and I think we should make the effort.

Every major scientific organization on the planet backs the research on anthropogenic climate change (except for the American Petroleum Geologists, amusingly enough). I'm not going to list them here, but you should google it before making such grossly incorrect statements. If you think it doesn't "seem likely" but haven't actually read the research, you're talking out of your ass.
Talking out your ass. Farting cows. I'm seeing a pattern here, folks.

seandlr
06-11-2009, 10:45 AM
And if we did know "the true extent", what difference would it make?
It's not like this global warming bullshit hasn't happened before.
Global warming followed by an ice age followed by global warming followed by another ice age. Nothing new. The earth has been there, done that many times before. One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.




Wow. I really dont like you. And yes youre right about global climate
change being nothing new, but the fact is that humans have increased the spead of global climate change tremendously. Plants? are you serious? a renewable resource? Youre dumb. People, like my self, dont eat meat for several reasons, 1, animal rights, 2, the fact that people dont eat meat means they dont support factory farming which wastes millions of gllaons of water a day. It takes 350+ gallons to process a pound of meat. 3, lastly, because meat causes cancer. NATURE WILL WIN IN THE END. Im not only trying to preserve nature, but im trying to preserve the human race.

Cheddar's Cousin
06-11-2009, 10:45 AM
If you're implying that it is normal and therefore we shouldn't be concerned, please understand that these shifts in the past have been associated with mass extinction, flooding and chaotic weather patterns. Widespread famine, disease and displacement are anticipated.

While I am more than implying that it is normal, I do not suggest that we shouldn't be concerned.

It would be much more prudent to focus our energies on finding ways to survive the inevitable rather than attempting to prevent it.

Fun fact: The most abundant green house gas is water vapor.*


*courtesy NOAA

I have had this same conversation before, all backed by appropriate and sufficient research. No ass talking here

BlackSwan
06-11-2009, 10:53 AM
If you are going to say something like this...


Actually, virtually all evidence indicates that Suff. is exactly right. The Earth has obviously undergone several warming phases (warmer than the rates we are seeing now) and ice ages. These all occured long before industrialization.



I have had this same conversation before, all backed by appropriate and sufficient research. No ass talking here

...You are taking out of your ass until you include this evidence.

chairmenmeow47
06-11-2009, 10:53 AM
i can't wait for meat cancer :p

seandlr
06-11-2009, 10:58 AM
FOR THOSE THAT HAVENT SEEN THIS, ITS A "MUST WATCH"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gLBE5QAYXp8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gLBE5QAYXp8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Wow. I really dont like you. And yes youre right about global climate
change being nothing new, but the fact is that humans have increased the spead of global climate change tremendously. Plants? are you serious? a renewable resource? Youre dumb. People, like my self, dont eat meat for several reasons, 1, animal rights, 2, the fact that people dont eat meat means they dont support factory farming which wastes millions of gllaons of water a day. It takes 350+ gallons to process a pound of meat. 3, lastly, because meat causes cancer. NATURE WILL WIN IN THE END. Im not only trying to preserve nature, but im trying to preserve the human race.
Is that why you call your home Cow Town? Just wondering.:rolleyes

Wheres the beef?
06-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Actually, virtually all evidence indicates that Suff. is exactly right. The Earth has obviously undergone several warming phases (warmer than the rates we are seeing now) and ice ages. These all occured long before industrialization.

Do we need to be good stewards? Of course we do. Can we actually control the cooling/warming trends of the Earth? Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds?

I hope you are being sarcastic.

marooko
06-11-2009, 11:03 AM
hey guys, i bought some more carbon credits, but my butt isn't talking anymore. figure id offer them to you guys first.

seandlr
06-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Is that why you call your home Cow Town? Just wondering.:rolleyes

Well I live in a city called Chino, and a lot of cows are where i'm from, so, yeah :)

menikmati
06-11-2009, 11:24 AM
I know, let's throw together a huge concert and fly in tons and tons of shitty ass bands, sell tons of beef, create lots of waste, fly in celebrities, use up tons of energy, and sell tickets....and then spread the word of making everyone go green and buy carbon credits.

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 11:28 AM
FOR THOSE THAT HAVENT SEEN THIS, ITS A "MUST WATCH"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gLBE5QAYXp8&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gLBE5QAYXp8&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
After watching that vid, I gathered up any plastic shopping bags I had around here to use as my jellyfish ensemble and I'm off to the beach. C-Ya, Bye!

JebusLives
06-11-2009, 11:31 AM
While I am more than implying that it is normal, I do not suggest that we shouldn't be concerned.

It would be much more prudent to focus our energies on finding ways to survive the inevitable rather than attempting to prevent it.

Fun fact: The most abundant green house gas is water vapor.*


*courtesy NOAA

I have had this same conversation before, all backed by appropriate and sufficient research. No ass talking here

Current research indicates that we CAN avoid the bulk of the fallout, IF we act immediately and hit certain targets in the near-term.

Fun fact: As the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere increases and temperatures rise, more water evaporates resulting in a positive-feedback loop. Most research in the area now isn't on CO2 itself, but rather on various positive- and negative-feedback loops that will result from increased CO2. But thanks for the misleading talking point.

Fun fact: There is no way you've done enough 'approriate and sufficient research' to discount the official position of the entire American Academy of Sciences.

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 11:40 AM
Well I live in a city called Chino, and a lot of cows are where i'm from, so, yeah :)
Ah yes, Chino...I've spent some "time"living in the area before. Lovely air you breathe over there, by the way... It's like a heady combination of cow shit, urine, and slaughterhouse. On a peaceful night I bet you can sit back on the front porch watching the stars and listening to cow farts gently waif through the evening breeze, huh? :lool

higgybaby23
06-11-2009, 12:01 PM
I know, let's throw together a huge concert and fly in tons and tons of shitty ass bands, sell tons of beef, create lots of waste, fly in celebrities, use up tons of energy, and sell tickets....and then spread the word of making everyone go green and buy carbon credits.


Just think of all the consciousness that can be raised!

marooko
06-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Just think of all the consciousness that can be raised!

seriously. with my new movie coming out, this is perfect timing. count me in.

seandlr
06-11-2009, 12:20 PM
Ah yes, Chino...I've spent some "time"living in the area before. Lovely air you breathe over there, by the way... It's like a heady combination of cow shit, urine, and slaughterhouse. On a peaceful night I bet you can sit back on the front porch watching the stars and listening to cow farts gently waif through the evening breeze, huh? :lool

exxxxactly

Suffacated
06-11-2009, 01:25 PM
One major difference is that now we have some very bored, overly educated, tree hugging hypocrites who are quick to blame and point fingers.
I say blame them and the vegetarians.
These "Green people" still use electricity to power their homes and computers, they buy petroleum products in the way of gas, tires, ink pens, cosmetics and polyester pants suits and lastly, they eat all of the fucking plants that turn "greenhouse gasses" into oxygen.


You guys didnt actually believe all this crap, did ya?
Controversy for the sake of conversation.
Works every time....

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 01:32 PM
You guys didnt actually believe all this crap, did ya?
Controversy for the sake of conversation.
Works every time....
Well, so much for capturing the Board's Most Popular Couple title, huh? LOL:lips

Suffacated
06-11-2009, 01:45 PM
Lookie at you about to top 7000...

BlackSwan
06-11-2009, 01:48 PM
Fuck, now this thread needs to be medicated.

http://www.rxfulfillment.com/images/valtrex_500mg.jpg

BROKENDOLL
06-11-2009, 01:49 PM
Lookie at you about to top 7000...
Shhhh, just doing my part to change the environment around here...:winkiss

Suffacated
06-11-2009, 01:51 PM
Don't you mean climate?

RotationSlimWang
06-11-2009, 02:58 PM
Wow this thread got fucking dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

JebusLives
06-11-2009, 03:35 PM
So you two are trolling this board under your standard names, using the most tired (but popular) argument in the world? Congratulations, you anti-social dickheads. Not amusing.

Suffacated
06-11-2009, 08:17 PM
If I were anti-social, I wouldnt be posting.
Is it not amusing only because you ate it up?

Cheddar's Cousin
06-12-2009, 07:33 AM
Only a portion of CO2 is actually converted to oxygen in a tree's respiration process. The rest of it is stored in the tissues of the tree. When a tree dies, the CO2 is released back into the atmosphere.

When a massive dieoff occures, such as in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina (certainly not the fault of humans), hundreds of tons of CO2 are released into the atmosphere- more than many thousands of cars could release in the same amont of time.

We must do something to stop this horrible scourge known as nature if we are ever going to save the planet.

http://www.seed.slb.com/uploadedImages/Science/Earth_Science/Global_Climate_Change_and_Energy/carbonDioxideLevels.jpg



I'll dig the the rest of the research out of my ass as time allows.

allyjoy
06-12-2009, 08:39 AM
Cheddar, stop spreading your lies. Katrina was a fictional disaster conceived by the government & filmed on the moon.

marooko
06-12-2009, 09:00 AM
Another one?! Jesus!!

Just want to inform you guys on my new business venture. I'm gonna be selling carbon credits. What? That's being done already?! Oh, but wait...I'm targeting a specific consumer.

Hey, McDonald's lover, yeah you....what's that, you like beans as well and broccoli. Oh have I got something for you.

Has the recent push for saving the environment made you concerned about the foods you eat? You wanna buy carbon credits, but you're embarrassed that it's for your constant flatulence and not your traveling? Be embarrassed no longer my fellow farter. At "Maroo's Funky Carbon", we understand your problem and your need for discretion.

Be assured that our policies will ensure your privacy. No one will know why you're buying those credits (well, maybe the people immediately around you will). More info coming soon as we expand this business venture.

allyjoy
06-12-2009, 09:21 AM
i'll take 20! they'll make great stocking-stuffers. :thu

bug on your lip
06-12-2009, 10:01 AM
speaking of business venture, those weeds aren't going to pull themselves marooko

TheWatcher
06-12-2009, 11:21 AM
We must do something to stop this horrible scourge known as nature if we are ever going to save the planet.

http://www.seed.slb.com/uploadedImages/Science/Earth_Science/Global_Climate_Change_and_Energy/carbonDioxideLevels.jpg


You do notice the green line at the far right of the graph (current time) is going much higher than at any other time, and that the temperature line has not caught up yet, though it has corresponded with the co2 levels for a very long time?

(brought to you from Captain Obvious)

Actually, I am also noticing that the lower temps. in each ice age are getting lower each time... it's possible that we might end up with the snowball earth again.

TomAz
06-12-2009, 12:27 PM
http://knowseyneighbors.com/wp-content/gallery/blog-images/the-end-is-near.jpg

seandlr
06-12-2009, 12:47 PM
http://knowseyneighbors.com/wp-content/gallery/blog-images/the-end-is-near.jpg

And in fine print: "unless we do something about it"

menikmati
06-12-2009, 12:49 PM
please...

JebusLives
06-12-2009, 12:52 PM
Only a portion of CO2 is actually converted to oxygen in a tree's respiration process. The rest of it is stored in the tissues of the tree. When a tree dies, the CO2 is released back into the atmosphere.

When a massive dieoff occures, such as in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina (certainly not the fault of humans), hundreds of tons of CO2 are released into the atmosphere- more than many thousands of cars could release in the same amont of time.

We must do something to stop this horrible scourge known as nature if we are ever going to save the planet.

I'll dig the the rest of the research out of my ass as time allows.

Tom already pointed out the alarming green line on the right side that you sort of ignored. Let me address your argument:

Yes, trees are carbon sinks, and if you burn them it returns to the atmosphere. What's your point? Its like you are bringing up random facts about ecology to illustrate how well-versed you are on the subject. THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY IS WELL AWARE THAT CLIMATE VARIES OVER TIME.

Digging up coal, oil and natural gas deposited during the carboniferous period and then burning it results in more CO2 in the atmosphere... that's why burning wood (that had to grow, first) is considered carbon-neutral, but burning oil is not. I should add that we're burning the forests down almost as fast as we're digging up and burning fossil fuels.

Not so coincidentally, the carboniferous period was extremely hot. As in rainforest-in-Antarctica, giant lizards everywhere hot. I think you should drop the smugness and just ponder for a moment how that would affect our species.

marooko
06-12-2009, 12:54 PM
http://www.supermanofsteel.com/Pictures/Supermen.jpg

marooko
06-12-2009, 12:57 PM
Not so coincidentally, the carboniferous period was extremely hot. As in rainforest-in-Antarctica, giant lizards everywhere hot. I think you should drop the smugness and just ponder for a moment how that would affect our species.

we'll just tame the lizards and wear fur around our crotch area. like they did in saturday morning cartoons. whats the big deal?

TomAz
06-12-2009, 01:09 PM
And in fine print: "unless we do something about it"

are you related to samnco?

menikmati
06-12-2009, 01:12 PM
Aren't we supposed to be painting our roofs white or some stupid bullshit? It will take like a billion cars off the road right? Yeah!

marooko
06-12-2009, 01:17 PM
where will it put them?

menikmati
06-12-2009, 01:20 PM
They will just magically disappear into the thin air...just like all the cars that you take off the road when using one of those curly light bulbs (which does more damage to the environment when you throw it away than normal bulbs). Yet somehow all the other gas guzzlers that we see on the road today, they're gonna stay on the road. It's really weird.

marooko
06-12-2009, 01:25 PM
so if i go outside and my car is gone, should i call the cops or assume someone painted their roof white? and how do they know which cars to take? this is just weird.

menikmati
06-12-2009, 01:27 PM
no no, all the cars we see and have now, those are gonna stay....all these other cars that are mysteriously hidden away and out of our sight, those are gonna disappear once our roofs are painted white and our light bulbs are switched over.

marooko
06-12-2009, 01:29 PM
im no rocket scientist, but how will we know they're gone if they're already out of sight? in essence, gone. or should i just trust the TV?

menikmati
06-12-2009, 01:31 PM
just listen to what they tell you...don't question it.

marooko
06-12-2009, 01:33 PM
wanna buy carbon credits to offset your flatulence?

menikmati
06-12-2009, 01:34 PM
Target the farmers.

BROKENDOLL
06-12-2009, 01:38 PM
i'll take 20! they'll make great stocking-stuffers. :thu
So, by investing in Marooko's Carbon Credits for stocking stuffers instead of the usual coal I give, I'll be doing my part to save the environment? I'll take 20 also! Christmas will be a gas this year!

PotVsKtl
06-12-2009, 02:23 PM
Learn to use commas hippie.

TomAz
06-12-2009, 02:41 PM
http://static-74-41-84-196.sdsl01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net/images/thumbs2/thumb_photo12120693372608.jpg

http://greatinventions.tv/products/images/flag_large1.jpg

seandlr
06-12-2009, 02:46 PM
are you related to samnco?
No I'm not, but what makes you say that?

Cheddar's Cousin
06-12-2009, 03:04 PM
Tom already pointed out the alarming green line on the right side that you sort of ignored. Let me address your argument:

Yes, trees are carbon sinks, and if you burn them it returns to the atmosphere. What's your point? Its like you are bringing up random facts about ecology to illustrate how well-versed you are on the subject. THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY IS WELL AWARE THAT CLIMATE VARIES OVER TIME.

Digging up coal, oil and natural gas deposited during the carboniferous period and then burning it results in more CO2 in the atmosphere... that's why burning wood (that had to grow, first) is considered carbon-neutral, but burning oil is not. I should add that we're burning the forests down almost as fast as we're digging up and burning fossil fuels.

Not so coincidentally, the carboniferous period was extremely hot. As in rainforest-in-Antarctica, giant lizards everywhere hot. I think you should drop the smugness and just ponder for a moment how that would affect our species.

I didn't bring up a random fact, nor did I say anything about burning trees or coal. I stated that the natural death and decay of trees releases more Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere than many thousands of cars.

As for the green line...I did not ignore it. Perhaps this will explain.

The Carbon Cycle (http://www.seed.slb.com/subcontent.aspx?id=3788) would suggest that it is warm temperatures that cause spikes in atmospheric co2 rather than the other way around.


Fun fact:

About 550 million years ago the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere was 7,000 parts per million – more than 18 times what it is today.

Nor have I denied that the climate changes we are seeing will have tremendous effects upon our species.

marooko
06-12-2009, 03:16 PM
Fun Fact:

jdaws
06-12-2009, 08:07 PM
SAVE THE MIGRATIONS

PotVsKtl
06-12-2009, 09:37 PM
I didn't bring up a random fact, nor did I say anything about burning trees or coal. I stated that the natural death and decay of trees releases more Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere than many thousands of cars.

Awesome point. So, we'll take the natural death and decay of trees as, as it is natural and predictable, as a baseline. Then we'll add the human affect. What is the percentage of human interference in this scenario? 100%? Science is hard.

TomAz
06-12-2009, 09:50 PM
I didn't bring up a random fact, nor did I say anything about burning trees or coal. I stated that the natural death and decay of trees releases more Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere than many thousands of cars.

As for the green line...I did not ignore it. Perhaps this will explain.

The Carbon Cycle (http://www.seed.slb.com/subcontent.aspx?id=3788) would suggest that it is warm temperatures that cause spikes in atmospheric co2 rather than the other way around.


Fun fact:

About 550 million years ago the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere was 7,000 parts per million – more than 18 times what it is today.

Nor have I denied that the climate changes we are seeing will have tremendous effects upon our species.

why are any of these relevant points?

Cheddar's Cousin
06-13-2009, 11:07 AM
As I said up there somewhere.

The Earth is warming.

This warming is beyond our control.

We must learn how to deal with this warming rather than flail against the inevitable.

That's why.

BROKENDOLL
06-13-2009, 11:44 AM
As I said up there somewhere.

The Earth is warming.

This warming is beyond our control.

We must learn how to deal with this warming rather than flail against the inevitable.

That's why.


http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr344/bgas1tn/SavetimePartyNaked.gif

Wheres the beef?
06-13-2009, 01:33 PM
This warming is beyond our control.


Where did you get this? How do you know? If you have some groundbreaking research to discredit all the world's scientists, I think you should let them know how wrong they are. You'll be a hero! And everyone will be so jealous they didn't see it first. You're going to turn science on its head!

menikmati
06-13-2009, 02:14 PM
We're gonna build giant machines to suck out all the CO2 from the air. Don't worry.

Suffacated
06-14-2009, 01:32 AM
Where did you get this? How do you know? If you have some groundbreaking research to discredit all the world's scientists, I think you should let them know how wrong they are. You'll be a hero! And everyone will be so jealous they didn't see it first. You're going to turn science on its head!

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t52/Suffacated/POLO/SheBlindedMeWithScience.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t52/Suffacated/POLO/Science.gif

Cheddar's Cousin
06-15-2009, 07:15 AM
Where did you get this? How do you know? If you have some groundbreaking research to discredit all the world's scientists, I think you should let them know how wrong they are. You'll be a hero! And everyone will be so jealous they didn't see it first. You're going to turn science on its head!


Look at the graphs that I have posted. I didn't do the research, the World's scientists did. The warming and cooling trends are evident in the samples dating back 100s of thousands of years.

No jealousy...no discrediting..nothing groundbreaking..no one is wrong...unless they tink they can stop this natural phenomenon.

marooko
06-15-2009, 07:29 AM
We're gonna build giant machines to suck out all the CO2 from the air. Don't worry.

already got patents pending. slight legal issues though. hoover is pissed.

TomAz
06-15-2009, 07:35 AM
Look at the graphs that I have posted. I didn't do the research, the World's scientists did. The warming and cooling trends are evident in the samples dating back 100s of thousands of years.

No jealousy...no discrediting..nothing groundbreaking..no one is wrong...unless they tink they can stop this natural phenomenon.

The warming and cooling trends are real, no one is denying that. We all know the Ice Age occurred.

The concern today, which you seem to be struggling with getting your head around, is the unprecedentedly high concentrations of CO2 which coincide precisely with human's industrial expansion.

marooko
06-15-2009, 07:38 AM
how many pages before this thread stops climate change?


and because its inevitable....

HITLER!!!!!!!!

Cheddar's Cousin
06-15-2009, 09:30 AM
Global Warming Is Irreversible, Study Says

All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 · Climate change is essentially irreversible, according to a sobering new scientific study.

As carbon dioxide emissions continue to rise, the world will experience more and more long-term environmental disruption. The damage will persist even when, and if, emissions are brought under control, says study author Susan Solomon, who is among the world's top climate scientists.

All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 (http://All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 · Climate change is essentially irreversible, according to a sobering new scientific study.)

Each year 186 billion tons of CO2 enter the earth's atmosphere. Of that, only 6 billion tons are from human activity (3.2%). Some 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and the rest from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.

Historically, and at one significant point indeed, CO2 atmospheric concentrations were much, much higher, 6,000 plus ppm. Current c02 concentrations are far from unprecedented. In fact, current levels (about 379 ppm) are only aproximately 79 ppm more than at any time during the last 450,000 years.

marooko
06-15-2009, 09:38 AM
We're gonna build giant machines to suck out all the CO2 from the air. Don't worry.


already got patents pending. slight legal issues though. hoover is pissed.

mel brooks isnt too pleased either.


http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5993/megamaidspaceballs.jpg

menikmati
06-15-2009, 09:48 AM
nice to know where these totally legit ideas are coming from...

BlackSwan
06-15-2009, 10:07 AM
Global Warming Is Irreversible, Study Says

All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 · Climate change is essentially irreversible, according to a sobering new scientific study.

As carbon dioxide emissions continue to rise, the world will experience more and more long-term environmental disruption. The damage will persist even when, and if, emissions are brought under control, says study author Susan Solomon, who is among the world's top climate scientists.

All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 (http://All Things Considered, January 26, 2009 · Climate change is essentially irreversible, according to a sobering new scientific study.)

Each year 186 billion tons of CO2 enter the earth's atmosphere. Of that, only 6 billion tons are from human activity (3.2%). Some 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and the rest from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.

Historically, and at one significant point indeed, CO2 atmospheric concentrations were much, much higher, 6,000 plus ppm. Current c02 concentrations are far from unprecedented. In fact, current levels (about 379 ppm) are only aproximately 79 ppm more than at any time during the last 450,000 years.

Look at you and your revisionist posting... Leaving out the part that contradicts the opinion you came to from reading the article. Here is the rest of article...


"People have imagined that if we stopped emitting carbon dioxide that the climate would go back to normal in 100 years or 200 years. What we're showing here is that's not right. It's essentially an irreversible change that will last for more than a thousand years," Solomon says.

This is because the oceans are currently soaking up a lot of the planet's excess heat — and a lot of the carbon dioxide put into the air. The carbon dioxide and heat will eventually start coming out of the ocean. And that will take place for many hundreds of years.

Solomon is a scientist with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Her new study looked at the consequences of this long-term effect in terms of sea level rise and drought.

If we continue with business as usual for even a few more decades, she says, those emissions could be enough to create permanent dust-bowl conditions in the U.S. Southwest and around the Mediterranean.

"The sea level rise is a much slower thing, so it will take a long time to happen, but we will lock into it, based on the peak level of [carbon dioxide] we reach in this century," Solomon says.

The idea that changes will be irreversible has consequences for how we should deal with climate change. The global thermostat can't be turned down quickly once it's been turned up, so scientists say we need to proceed with more caution right now.

"These are all ... changes that are starting to happen in at least a minor way already," says Michael Oppenheimer of Princeton University. "So the question becomes, where do we stop it, when does all of this become dangerous?"

The answer, he says, is sooner rather than later. Scientists have been trying to advise politicians about finding an acceptable level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The new study suggests that it's even more important to aim low. If we overshoot, the damage can't be easily undone. Oppenheimer feels more urgency than ever to deal with climate change, but he says that in the end, setting acceptable limits for carbon dioxide is a judgment call.

"That's really a political decision because there's more at issue than just the science. It's the issue of what the science says, plus what's feasible politically, plus what's reasonable economically to do," Oppenheimer says.

But despite this grim prognosis, Solomon says this is not time to declare the problem hopeless and give up.

"I guess if it's irreversible, to me it seems all the more reason you might want to do something about it," she says. "Because committing to something that you can't back out of seems to me like a step that you'd want to take even more carefully than something you thought you could reverse."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99888903

Douchebaggery confirmed. Now shut the fuck up.

TomAz
06-15-2009, 10:07 AM
thank you Black Swan.

Cheddar's Cousin
06-15-2009, 05:28 PM
I included the link so that you could read the entire article for yoursef. That is the opposite of Douchebaggery.

The reason my post left out the parts that you bolded is because they where moot points. How or why we are experiencing the current warming trend was not the intention of this particular post. I thought the fact that NPR...a source that you crunchy granola types respect made the exact same claim that I did would inspire you to get your collective heads out of your asses and actually pay attention.

Look at yourself...refusing to address the facts that I have posted.

I kindly decline your request.

fober
06-15-2009, 08:35 PM
I bought a t-shirt for $9 from some store on Melrose that said "think green" on it.

I've done my part.

You fuckers figure the rest out.

BROKENDOLL
06-15-2009, 09:21 PM
I bought a t-shirt for $9 from some store on Melrose that said "think green" on it.

I've done my part.

You fuckers figure the rest out. LMFAO!:thu

DocWalk
06-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Is there a middle ground I can stand on?
Somewhere between Jack Johnson and Christian Fundamentalism,
I wonder what Frank Zappa would say if he were still around.

Cheddar's Cousin
06-16-2009, 05:36 AM
You can stand with me!

Wheres the beef?
06-16-2009, 08:00 AM
I bought a t-shirt for $9 from some store on Melrose that said "think green" on it.

I've done my part.

You fuckers figure the rest out.

Fuck you. You don't even have a bumper sticker.

faxman75
06-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Global Warming ....

fml

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/17/MNNP188DSH.DTL&tsp=1

JebusLives
06-17-2009, 05:12 PM
Jesus Cheddar, are you really saying that because we can't suck the CO2 in the atmosphere back into the ground without a time machine, we shouldn't do anything about preventing further changes? Or are you just being a dipshit brat who already knows he's wrong.

Cheddar's Cousin
06-18-2009, 06:35 AM
Neither.

I have stated that we should be good stewards and not screw up our environment.

I also know that climate change will proceed despite our best efforts, so we better start building shelter rather than cry about the sky falling.

That is all I have said since I got here. Everyone else paints me as a denyer.

Once again...We should not destroy our own environment.

Climate Change is real.

We can not stop it.

Suffacated
06-18-2009, 07:41 AM
Neither.

I have stated that we should be good stewards and not screw up our environment.

I also know that climate change will proceed despite our best efforts, so we better start building shelter rather than cry about the sky falling.

That is all I have said since I got here. Everyone else paints me as a denyer.

Once again...We should not destroy our own environment.

Climate Change is real.

We can not stop it.

Give me some of that "denyer" paint.
I'm right there with ya.



As far as the evolutionary clock goes, we've been on this planet for only a few minutes.
Sure we may played a huge part in dirtying the earths environment in these few minutes, but how much of an impact we'll never really know.

Climate change is very real.
It's been happening long before us and will continue to happen long after the human race becomes extinct.

Keep in mind, this is only my "opinion".
Thats all these posts are. Opinions.
There is no right and no wrong because we just havent been around long enough to know what the truth is.
We certainly won't be around long enough to discover the real truth.

So, except reality. It is what it is.
Or, go on believing your "save the earth" fairy tails..

Ok, ok, wait a second...
I'm wrong and everyone who thinks they know better is right.
Feel better now? Good. I feel better knowing that I made you feel better.
Thats how I stir it up while helping out the environment.

BlackSwan
06-18-2009, 08:17 AM
You're not wrong because you disagree, you are wrong because your opinion is counterintuative. It's like saying there is no point in going to the doctor since you are going to die eventually anyway.

JebusLives
06-18-2009, 08:30 AM
Give me some of that "denyer" paint.
Keep in mind, this is only my "opinion".
Thats all these posts are. Opinions.
There is no right and no wrong because we just havent been around long enough to know what the truth is.
We certainly won't be around long enough to discover the real truth.


Well, some people form their "opinions" through experiment and evidence gathering, while others form them based on selective listening and rhetoric.

TomAz
06-18-2009, 08:38 AM
So, except reality. It is what it is.
Or, go on believing your "save the earth" fairy tails..


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_images/_timeline/02_01.jpg

Suffacated
06-18-2009, 08:41 AM
I know I'm going to die anyways.
I go to the doctor because I don't want it to be a painful death.


You're not wrong because you disagree, you are wrong because your opinion is counterintuative. It's like saying there is no point in going to the doctor since you are going to die eventually anyway.

BROKENDOLL
06-18-2009, 09:21 AM
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w18/1BROKENDOLL/003_bevieofthejungle-2.jpg

Cheddar's Cousin
06-18-2009, 06:28 PM
A great many truths are counterintuitive.

BlackSwan
06-18-2009, 10:50 PM
A great many truths are counterintuitive.

My post was a response to the one above it, not yours. If you are essentially saying that we should care about the environment, but the Earth's climate is going to eventually change to a point that is uninhabitable for most life. I agree with you, but you are terrible at making that point.

greghead
06-18-2009, 11:56 PM
Moving on from climate change, what are people's thoughts on the staggering amount of waste we create? All the plastic, paper, nuclear and chemical waste, etc etc? I know we like to bury it or dump it in the ocean, but that doesn't solve anything, it just puts it out of sight. I am fairly ignorant on the subject, but does anybody know what is being done/proposed as possible solutions to these issues?

menikmati
06-19-2009, 08:31 AM
You should have heard this guy I use work with, he would always something like: "All we need to do is set aside one 40 square mile area in the middle of the US, and then freight all of our loads of garbage into this one centralized place, and our waste problems will be solved for the next 500 years".

Suffacated
06-19-2009, 08:38 AM
You should have heard this guy I use work with, he would always something like: "All we need to do is set aside one 40 square mile area in the middle of the US, and then freight all of our loads of garbage into this one centralized place, and our waste problems will be solved for the next 500 years".

Was he talking about Eagle Mountain @ Desert Center, Ca?

Cheddar's Cousin
06-20-2009, 12:20 PM
I know who your post was directed at. My statement stills stands.


If you are essentially saying that we should care about the environment, but the Earth's climate is going to eventually change to a point that is uninhabitable for most life. I agree with you, but you are terrible at making that point.

Really?

Because, I said exactly that in my first post on this subject.


Actually, virtually all evidence indicates that Suff. is exactly right. The Earth has obviously undergone several warming phases (warmer than the rates we are seeing now) and ice ages. These all occured long before industrialization.

Do we need to be good stewards? Of course we do. Can we actually control the cooling/warming trends of the Earth? Do you realize how dumb and arrogant that sounds?


Truce?

BlackSwan
06-25-2009, 09:35 AM
One-Third of Sharks Now Face Extinction


A third of the world's open water sharks -- including the great white and hammerhead -- face extinction, according to a major conservation survey.

WATCH VIDEO: Shark populations are declining worldwide.

Species hunted on the high seas are particularly at risk, with more than half in danger of dying out, reported the Shark Specialist Group at the International Union for the Conservation of Nature.

The report identified the great hammerhead and scalloped hammerhead sharks, as well as giant devil rays, as globally endangered.

The smooth hammerhead, great white, basking, and oceanic whitetip sharks are listed as globally vulnerable to extinction, along with two species of makos and three types of threshers.

Some 100 million sharks are caught in commercial and sports fishing every year, and several species have declined by more than 80 percent in the past decade alone, according the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

The main culprit is overfishing. Sharks are especially vulnerable because they are prized for their meat -- their fins especially, in Asia -- and most species take many years to mature and have relatively few young.


http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/06/25/shark-extinction.html

BlackSwan
06-25-2009, 09:42 AM
I know who your post was directed at. My statement stills stands.

Really?

Because, I said exactly that in my first post on this subject.

Truce?

If that's what you were trying to say with your first post then you didn't successfully link it to the conversation that was making a different point. People were saying that humans are making the warming worse and expediting the process. You came in and said it was going to happen anyway, and agreed with Suff. who was saying we shouldn't be stupid enough to think we can do anything about it because it is going to happen anyway.

marooko
06-25-2009, 09:53 AM
our clean environment isn't gonna matter when our sun dies. quick thinking short term, we need to figure out a way to keep our sun from dying.

paganman7
06-25-2009, 10:03 AM
I suspect, nay I know, that our species will not exist once the sun has emitted its last rays of sunshine.

A lot can happen in 3-5 billion years from now.

amyzzz
06-25-2009, 10:11 AM
I suspect, nay I know, that our species will not exist once the sun has emitted its last rays of sunshine.

A lot can happen in 3-5 billion years from now.
You don't believe humans will have populated other planets outside this solar system by then?

BlackSwan
06-25-2009, 10:16 AM
I suspect, nay I know, that our species will not exist once the sun has emitted its last rays of sunshine.

A lot can happen in 3-5 billion years from now.

Exactly, this relates to my response to Chedder. We are talking billions of years here, and that's why his response to the conversation people were having about the climate didn't make any sense and people misunderstood him.

hawkingvsreeve
06-25-2009, 10:22 AM
Youre dumb. People, like my self,


http://www.lexusownersclub.com/gallery/albums/Misc/brake_lights_on.sized.jpg

BROKENDOLL
06-25-2009, 10:29 AM
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/06/25/shark-extinction.html
Whew, that was the one glitch in my plan to survive as a jellyfish in the ocean...

BROKENDOLL
06-25-2009, 10:31 AM
You don't believe humans will have populated other planets outside this solar system by then?
With enough drugs we might.

menikmati
06-25-2009, 11:21 AM
You don't believe humans will have populated other planets outside this solar system by then?

We can't even get to the moon Amy...

JebusLives
06-25-2009, 11:29 AM
You don't believe humans will have populated other planets outside this solar system by then?

When you consider how close we've come to total annihilation within the 50 years we've been capable of it, do you really expect us to even be around in another 1000 years?

IF this current civilization lasted that long, you could hardly call it human by then anyway. don't forget; 4 billion years ago we were bacteria.

amyzzz
06-25-2009, 11:32 AM
I have a lot more hope than you folks.

BROKENDOLL
06-25-2009, 11:50 AM
You don't believe humans will have populated other planets outside this solar system by then?

With enough drugs we might.

We can't even get to the moon Amy...

I have a lot more hope than you folks.
Woo-hoo for drugs!:)

amyzzz
06-25-2009, 11:52 AM
Brokendoll, what THE FUCK is your problem? Please don't respond to my posts again if all you can do is say DRUGDRDUGSDRUGS.

marooko
06-25-2009, 12:06 PM
When you consider how close we've come to total annihilation within the 50 years we've been capable of it, do you really expect us to even be around in another 1000 years?

IF this current civilization lasted that long, you could hardly call it human by then anyway. don't forget; 4 billion years ago we were bacteria.

50 years ago the majority of us were nothing, and tom and BD were like 25.

BROKENDOLL
06-25-2009, 04:35 PM
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w18/1BROKENDOLL/angry-20small-2ddog-2d761121-sma-1.gif
Well then, you get out of the solar system your way and I'll go the "Woo-hoo" route, and I'll see you on "The Dark Side of the Moon, Amy!" :lips

BROKENDOLL
06-25-2009, 05:38 PM
50 years ago the majority of us were nothing, and tom and BD were like 25.
Now, wait a sec, Marooko! I won't speak for Tom, but almost50 years ago, I was just a predetermined spermcell, minding my own business and swimming to and fro like some jellyfish, which probably explains my plan to return to sea when our environment turns to shit, thank you.

Cheddar's Cousin
06-26-2009, 10:52 AM
Sharks are yummy!

BlackSwan
07-10-2009, 11:18 AM
Stop cutting down trees...


Trees Buffered Earth From Iceball Fate


July 1, 2009 -- Vegetation helped save Earth from runaway cooling that would have encased the planet in ice, according to a study published on Wednesday.

The paper sheds light on the big natural mechanisms that over hundreds of millions of years have swung the globe like a pendulum between deep chill and intense heat.

Around 50 million years ago, the planet's poles were ice-free and crocodiles roamed the Arctic.

But that was followed by a long period of cooling, in which levels of carbon dioxide (CO2), the principal "greenhouse" gas that traps solar heat, progressively declined.

Belching volcanoes provided the main source of this CO2 -- in contrast to today, when the gas comes overwhelmingly from burning fossil fuels and is driving dangerous climate change.

But there was also a force which removed CO2: a chemical reaction that occurs when silica rocks are weathered.

Over the aeons, the gas is dissolved into groundwater, which flows to the sea and eventually the carbon is sequestered on the ocean floor.

Climate scientists have long puzzled about what happened at a key point in this weathering process.

Around 25 million years ago, Earth was wrenched by a period of mountain building that threw up the Himalayas and the Andes.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/07/01/trees-earth-freeze.html

Oh wait, it's not just cutting down trees that is going to fuck us...



Rainforests More Fragile Than Estimated


June 29, 2009 -- The Amazon rainforest, one of the planet's most precious and besieged natural resources, is even more fragile than realized.

If the planet warms even a moderate amount, a new study predicts that as much as 40 percent of it could be condemned to vanish by the end of the century.

A crippled Amazon could hasten global warming. If a significant portion of its trees die off, their vast stores of carbon would be emitted back into the atmosphere as greenhouse gases, pushing the climate further into dangerous levels of warming.

Chris Jones of the United Kingdom's Met Office and a group of researchers ran a computer simulation of Earth's climate that focused on how vegetation reacts to warming. They found that warming doesn't immediately kill off tropical trees -- it can take up to a century for the forests to respond fully.

But even modest warming could have devastating effects. If the planet warmed just 2 degrees Centigrade (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) above pre-industrial levels, they found that between 20 percent and 40 percent of the forest could die off.

"Our model predicts quite a severe drying in the Amazon, making trees more vulnerable to fire," Jones said. "The additional heat causes stress, too, damaging their ability to grow fully."

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/06/29/rainforest-warming.html

But it's happening...



White House: Climate Change Happening Now

June 16, 2009 -- Harmful effects from global warming are already here and worsening, warns the first climate report from Barack Obama's presidency in the strongest language on climate change ever to come out of the White House.

Global warming has already caused more heavy downpours, rising temperature and sea level, rapidly retreating glaciers, longer growing seasons and altered river flow, according to the document released Tuesday by the White House science adviser and other top officials.

"There are in some cases already serious consequences," report co-author Anthony Janetos of the University of Maryland told The Associated Press. "This is not a theoretical thing that will happen 50 years from now. Things are happening now."

The White House document -- a climate status report required periodically by Congress -- contains no new research. But it focuses and organizes what's been covered in numerous scientific journals and piecemeal federal studies to paint a more cohesive, bigger and darker picture of global warming in the United States.

The "major disruptions" already taking place will only increase as warming continues, the authors wrote. They project the average U.S. temperature could rise by as much as 11 degrees by the end of the century.


And Pacific Islanders are fucked too...



Shifting Rain Band Threatens Pacific Islands

July 9, 2009 -- A prominent band of rain that circles the equator has moved hundreds of miles north over the last few centuries, probably because of a changing climate.

While much of the shift appears to be from natural swings in the strength of the sun, continued warming from greenhouse gas emissions could push the rain band even further north. That might deprive some tropical regions of freshwater and jeopardize the subsistence lifestyles of more than a billion people.

"So much of the world's population lives a lifestyle that's so incredibly dependent on rainfall," said Julian Sachs, a chemical oceanographer at the University of Washington, Seattle. "If this (rain band) is so sensitive to really small changes in the climate system, it's somewhat disconcerting for the billion-plus people that rely heavily on that rain."

Sachs was digging through mud on Washington Island, a tiny atoll in the central tropical Pacific, when he was struck by an "aha moment." In an attempt to document how Earth's tropical climate had changed before satellite technology existed to document it, he and colleagues were looking at layers of sediment beneath a freshwater lake on the island, which lies about 5 degrees north of the equator and more than 1,000 miles south of Hawaii.

The first three feet of sampling brought up the expected: brown, coffee-colored mud. Then, suddenly, the team hit a layer of strawberry jam-like goo that stretched down for 12 or 15 feet. They knew that the jelly got its color and consistency from cyanobacteria, which only live in super-salty water. That meant that, even though the island gets tons of rain today and researchers sat in an inflatable boat on top of a pure freshwater lake, the island was once much drier.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/07/09/shifting-rain-band.html

djandrews25
07-10-2009, 11:25 AM
You enviro-nazis should focus on real pollutants.

BlackSwan
07-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Like? Examples?

MissingPerson
07-10-2009, 11:41 AM
Like? Examples?

http://www.turner.com/planet/static/graphics/villains.gif

bobert
07-10-2009, 11:58 AM
You enviro-nazis should focus on real pollutants.


Like? Examples?

I'd advise not engaging him, Swan. He's an ignoramus of the highest order and really can't be reached.

I dig the thread - it's perhaps the most depressing reading you'll find on the board, but definitely a highly necessary topic of discussion.

djandrews25
07-10-2009, 12:02 PM
Bobert oh bobert, i happen to have done quite a bit of reading on the subject from scientific sources, not politicians.

marooko
07-10-2009, 12:08 PM
i put gas in my car once in the past month.

amyzzz
07-10-2009, 12:11 PM
i put gas in my car once in the past month.
You just made me feel very guilty. I moved (gulp!) very far away from my work several years back so I pollute a lot every week.

menikmati
07-10-2009, 12:12 PM
tsk tsk

marooko
07-10-2009, 12:15 PM
You just made me feel very guilty. I moved (gulp!) very far away from my work several years back so I pollute a lot every week.

ill give you some ammo to make you feel better. sometimes i drive to work. i live 3 blocks away.

BlackSwan
07-10-2009, 12:21 PM
I'd advise not engaging him, Swan. He's an ignoramus of the highest order and really can't be reached.

I will take your advice, and not let him know why his response is retarded. The article clearly states Obama's report was based on "numerous scientific journals and piecemeal federal studies".

djandrews25
07-10-2009, 12:37 PM
So you read a politician's summary of what scientists wrote, not what they wrote. Have you bothered reading the other side of the argument? i know ignorance is bliss, but you should take both sides of an arguement and make up your own mind instead of letting politicians make your mind up for you. I know it makes me ignorant and apparently retarded to believe differently on these boards, but id rather make my own ignorant opinion than to have someone make it for me.

BlackSwan
07-10-2009, 01:11 PM
You missed the point, and are now making many assumptions.

obzen
07-10-2009, 01:17 PM
El Nino-it's coming.

djandrews25
07-10-2009, 01:25 PM
I am making assumptions off of your demeanor and willingness to hear someone who believes differently. Were they false assumptions?

BlackSwan
07-27-2009, 10:07 AM
Winter Heat Threatens Calif. Fruit, Nut Crops

California's famously fertile Central Valley -- home to a $9 billion industry that provides much of the United States' supply of fruit and nut crops -- may be teetering on the edge of a climate-induced disaster, according to a new study.

A team lead by Eike Luedeling of University of California, Davis used a computer simulation of past and future climates in the 400-mile long valley to predict what impact future, human-induced global warming could have on fruit and nut tree farmers.

Fruit trees need cold winter weather almost as much as they need warm summer sunshine. If it doesn't get cold enough, trees stay dormant later into the spring, and flower erratically. As a result fruit crops may not be fully matured at harvest time, or there may be nothing to pick at all.

Compared to 1950, the team found cool winter weather had already decreased 30 percent by 2000. If human emissions of greenhouse gases continues to grow unabated until the end of the 21st century, a worst-case scenario, chill may decline as much as 80 percent.

Under such conditions, as much as three quarters of the valley may be rendered unsuitable for the production of peaches, walnuts, plums, apricots, pistachios and nectarines -- some of the Central Valley's most lucrative crops. Cherries, apples, and pears are even more sensitive. They could be severely damaged, or even disappear from the valley as early as 2050.

"This is going to have a very significant effect on many crops," Luedeling told Discovery News, scientists wrote in research published yesterday in the journal PloS ONE."It will be very tough for orchard farmers to adjust. For some tree species, they may have to think about planting something else."

Almonds and pomegranates will be least effected, as they require less cold weather than other crops. But the team predicts that almost all of the nearly 40,000 fruit and nut orchards in the region will suffer some damage. The economic losses, while difficult to predict, could be high.

"A lot of the fruit that we love and that's healthy for us only grows in California," David Baldocchi of the University of California, Berkeley said. "As people try to eat healthier and healthier, we may find the things we want to eat might be going away."

Baldocchi, who grew up on a farm in the Central Valley and whose cousin is a cherry farmer, said farmers are already being forced to contend with warmer winters are already impacting crops.

"My cousin complains about how it's costing him all this money because he has to spray hormones on his trees to get them to break dormancy," he said. Such technological measures may work for a while, he said, but eventually the warming will become to great.

"The bottom line is we need to reduce our carbon emissions," he said. "This is just a symptom of a larger, global problem."

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/07/22/fruit-nut-crops-02.html
...

Fish Shrink Due to Climate Change

Fish have lost half their average body mass and smaller species are making up a larger proportion of European fish stocks as a result of global warming, a study published Monday has found.

"It's huge," said study author Martin Daufresne of the Cemagref Public Agricultural and Environmental Research Institute in Lyon, France.

"Size is a fundamental characteristic that is linked to a number of biological functions, such as fecundity -- the capacity to reproduce."

Smaller fish tend to produce fewer eggs. They also provide less sustenance for predators - including humans - which could have significant implications for the food chain and ecosystem.

A similar shrinking effect was recently documented in Scottish sheep and Daufresne said it is possible that global warming could have "a significant impact on organisms in general."

Earlier research has already established that fish have shifted their geographic ranges and their migratory and breeding patters in response to rising water temperatures. It has also been established that warmer regions tend to be inhabited by smaller fish.

Daufresne and his colleagues examined long-term surveys of fish populations in rivers, streams and the Baltic and North Seas and also performed experiments on bacteria and plankton.

They found the individual species lost an average of 50 percent of their body mass over the past 20 to 30 years while the average size of the overall fishing stock had shrunk by 60 percent.

This was a result of a decrease in the average size-at-age and an increase in the proportion of juveniles and small-sized species, Daufresne said.

"It was an effect that we observed in a number of organisms and in a number of very different environments -- on fish, on plankton, on bacteria, in fresh water, in salt water -- and we observed a global shrinking of size for all the organisms in all the environments," Daufresne said in a telephone interview.

While commercial and recreational fishing did impact some of the fisheries studied, it "cannot be considered as the unique trigger" for the changes in size, the study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found.

"Although not negating the role of other factors, our study provides strong evidence that temperature actually plays a major role in driving changes in the size structure of populations and communities," the study concluded.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/07/20/fish-climate-change.html

JebusLives
07-27-2009, 11:09 AM
You enviro-nazis should focus on real pollutants.

This must be a new talking point on some denier blog, because I keep hearing it. The implication is that we're maligning "natural, wholesome CO2" which isn't polution at all.

This is, of course, rediculous. Sour gas is a natural chemical that exists in trace amounts in the atmosphere. As are mercury vapour, Argon, and CO. All are poisonous in sufficient concentrations, and definitely considered polutants. However, all the deniers have are half-truths and misleading psuedo-facts, like the random ones Cheddar was spouting earlier.

You guys should think for a moment about why you are so emotionally invested in discounting all the legitimate research. I suspect it is because deep down, the idea of global warming is extremely upsetting to you. This is just your psyche trying to protect itself.

Cheddar's Cousin
07-29-2009, 06:25 AM
Hello!

Here we go again...While it is a shame that we have this "climate-induced disaster" on our hands it is outrageous- given the data we have regarding past and future climates- to make the jump to claiming this is a made made situation. More outrageous still to believe we can stop it.

My truths and facts are not misleading or random. They are truths and facts based on research and data, and are 100% undeniably applicable to this discussion.

BlackSwan
07-29-2009, 07:10 AM
Stop talking to yourself in my thread.

marooko
07-29-2009, 07:35 AM
i filled up yesterday. was weird.

marooko
07-31-2009, 03:13 PM
figure this should be seen in here.

edit: see next page please.

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 03:16 PM
I bet you have a small penis.

marooko
07-31-2009, 03:25 PM
:(.

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Thanks marooko, now i understand.

marooko
07-31-2009, 03:49 PM
i can slap you both in mouth with my penis from where i sit....at the same time.

matsuolost
07-31-2009, 03:51 PM
Imagine you are riding comfortably on a sleek train. You look out the window and see that the tracks end abruptly not too far ahead ... The train will derail if it continues. You suggest the train stop immediately and the passengers go forward on foot. This will require a major shift in everyone’s way of traveling, of course, but you see it as the only realistic option. To continue barreling forward is to court catastrophic consequences. But when you propose this course of action, others – who have grown comfortable riding on the train – say, “We like the train, and arguing that we should get off is not realistic.”

amyzzz
07-31-2009, 03:54 PM
Crash that motherfucker

matsuolost
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
seriously, fuckin shithead

Imagine you are riding comfortably on a sleek train. You look out the window and see that the tracks end abruptly not too far ahead ... The train will derail if it continues. You suggest the train stop immediately and the passengers go forward on foot. This will require a major shift in everyone’s way of traveling, of course, but you see it as the only realistic option. To continue barreling forward is to court catastrophic consequences. But when you propose this course of action, others – who have grown comfortable riding on the train – say, “We like the train, and arguing that we should get off is not realistic.”

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 04:02 PM
She was joking.

matsuolost
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
he still is a shithead

SoulDischarge
07-31-2009, 04:08 PM
I don't get it. Are trains better for the environment or something?

amyzzz
07-31-2009, 04:14 PM
Yes, if I was male, I would be a shithead.

matsuolost
07-31-2009, 04:17 PM
i was talking about marooko

marooko
07-31-2009, 04:21 PM
i was talking about marooko

i was gonna post two of them so it would like like the previous post at first glance. being that you showed me some love, i figure id give you the full effect. dont want it just getting lost, ya know.


figure this should be seen in here.



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amyzzz
07-31-2009, 04:23 PM
i was talking about marooko
oh. sorry.

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 04:26 PM
Having marooko on ignore is awesome. I highly suggest it.

matsuolost
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
petition to ban marooko

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 04:27 PM
There is a thread for that.

marooko
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
seems to have worked for others. go ahead.

marooko
07-31-2009, 04:29 PM
I bet you have a small penis.

ignore doesnt work if you read the persons posts.

amyzzz
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
I like marooko. prolly cuz he freaks out like me and I understand that.

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 04:37 PM
"prolly cuz"? Drugs?

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 04:39 PM
This must be a new talking point on some denier blog, because I keep hearing it. The implication is that we're maligning "natural, wholesome CO2" which isn't polution at all.

This is, of course, rediculous. Sour gas is a natural chemical that exists in trace amounts in the atmosphere. As are mercury vapour, Argon, and CO. All are poisonous in sufficient concentrations, and definitely considered polutants. However, all the deniers have are half-truths and misleading psuedo-facts, like the random ones Cheddar was spouting earlier.

You guys should think for a moment about why you are so emotionally invested in discounting all the legitimate research. I suspect it is because deep down, the idea of global warming is extremely upsetting to you. This is just your psyche trying to protect itself.

Have you read the counter argument and all the research that disproves it? I bet you haven't. Before all you liberals get all pissed off, maybe check it out?

amyzzz
07-31-2009, 04:52 PM
"prolly cuz"? Drugs?
"prolly cuz" colloquial

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 04:57 PM
Have you read the counter argument and all the research that disproves it? I bet you haven't. Before all you liberals get all pissed off, maybe check it out?

Why don't you explain it, jackass. That's how discussions work. At the very least post this evidence you speak of--I would be interested to read it.

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 05:07 PM
So you admittedly haven't read the counter arguement, i guess my assumptions were right afterall.

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 05:13 PM
So you admittedly haven't read the counter arguement, i guess my assumptions were right afterall.

Your response doesn't make any sense. You said there was a counter argument to JebusLives' post. I was asking you to post the argument you were referring to. Can you do that, or is my assumption that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about correct?

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 06:56 PM
You missed the point, and are now making many assumptions.

Remember this? Ya, that was one of them assumptions that were correct.

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 06:58 PM
At the very least post this evidence you speak of--I would be interested to read it.

Since this is what you want, it would be counterproductive to what i do on here... Piss you off.

boarderwoozel3
07-31-2009, 07:11 PM
HB 2454 The American Clean Energy and Secutity Act. It just squeaked by the House of Reps. 5 weeks ago and is entering senate sub-committees where there is much haggling over the exact mandated numbers. President Obama is calling for 20% renewable energy by the year 2020 and a 85% carbon emission reduction by the year 2050.

It uses the Cap and Trade system to reduce carbon emissions in the US while developing our our renewable energy infastracutre in solar and wind power. Not to mention it'll create about 1.7 million jobs in the green industry. I hear we may need some job creation these days...

Less carbon being emitted into the atmosphere = our environment is less fucked.

Westy
07-31-2009, 08:14 PM
There should be a conservative thread on this board. On second thoughts it would probably sink faster than Obama's approval ratings.

Westy
07-31-2009, 08:38 PM
^^^ Really? Nothing? That was comedy gold. Monologue worthy.

boarderwoozel3
07-31-2009, 08:41 PM
I loled, but didn't want to give you the satisfaction. I'm waiting for people's take on the pending legislation that I mentioned which couldn't be more topical for this thread.

djandrews25
07-31-2009, 08:53 PM
^^^ Really? Nothing? That was comedy gold. Monologue worthy.

It was good man, you are absolutely right about the conservative thread. It would just be a place for liberals to vent.

menikmati
07-31-2009, 08:55 PM
Hey, they were talking about this same thing with the same facts over 20 years ago....funny.

stinkbutt
07-31-2009, 09:21 PM
If you want a counter argument

http://247wallst.com/2009/04/02/the-“green”-hypocrisy-america’s-corporate-environment-champions-pollute-the-world/

I don't really agree with it but it has interesting points

BlackSwan
07-31-2009, 09:38 PM
Since this is what you want, it would be counterproductive to what i do on here... Piss you off.

If only you had the mental power to grasp why this post is so stupid.


If you want a counter argument

http://247wallst.com/2009/04/02/the-...ute-the-world/

I don't really agree with it but it has interesting points

That is not a counter argument, and many corporations who say they are "going green" are completely full of shit.

Westy
07-31-2009, 09:39 PM
The corporation "green" thing is equivalent to people saying their green because they recycle cans.

djandrews25
08-01-2009, 02:38 AM
Ouch that got me good.

RotationSlimWang
08-01-2009, 03:48 AM
This thread almost makes me miss Listitrist. At least she attempted to provide some kind of a counter-argument. They were inevitably completely irrelevant, inaccurate, misquoted and out of context, but she actually did something. I guess we gotta give her that.

SoulDischarge
08-01-2009, 06:56 AM
Honestly.

What is the point of not backing up your claims? It doesn't piss anyone off, but rather gives them the satisfaction of being able to write you off as a moron. I also don't get the point of arguing against the environment. Sure, I get it if you own a company that produces a lot of pollutants because that's your money they're going after. But why any average, rational person wouldn't want there to be developments towards cleaner, more renewable energy is fucking dumbfounding. The planet that we live on and live off of isn't worth at least trying to improve, even if it weren't in as critical danger as it's being made out to be?

BlackSwan
08-01-2009, 11:17 AM
What is the point of not backing up your claims? It doesn't piss anyone off, but rather gives them the satisfaction of being able to write you off as a moron.

It appears he thought it was going to piss me off, which it didn't. I had already written him off, but was giving him the chance to not just be some pathetic mass of chromosomal abnormalities. Now by telling me all the only reason he posting here is to piss me off, I can just ignore him. Delightful.

djandrews25
08-01-2009, 12:24 PM
It appears he thought it was going to piss me off, which it didn't. I had already written him off, but was giving him the chance to not just be some pathetic mass of chromosomal abnormalities. Now by telling me all the only reason he posting here is to piss me off, I can just ignore him. Delightful.

Bummer. That just ruined my day a little bit.

JebusLives
08-03-2009, 03:20 PM
But why any average, rational person wouldn't want there to be developments towards cleaner, more renewable energy is fucking dumbfounding. The planet that we live on and live off of isn't worth at least trying to improve, even if it weren't in as critical danger as it's being made out to be?

Cognitive dissonance. The idea that we're destroying the environment is upsetting, so the easiest way for the brain to "fix" the problem is to cherry-pick data until the problem appears to go away.

... and then there are the sociopathic pricks like Cheddar, who think its somehow funny to troll about something likely to cause unprecidented human misery unless we do something NOW.

Cheddar's Cousin
08-06-2009, 06:39 AM
If I deviate from the social norm, it is only because the social norm is retarded.

If you are saying that I wish to bring harm to society, the opposite is true. I would love nothing more than for all the bark humpewrs to get their heads out of their green asses and actually face the real issue. How will we deal with the inevtable?

In the meantime, I will continue to recycle my cans and bottles.

BlackSwan
08-19-2009, 09:32 AM
Deserts Expand Faster as Earth Brightens


Aug. 19, 2009 -- As the world warms over the next century, global deserts could expand by as much as 34 percent, according to a new study, swallowing an area roughly the size of the United States.

Predicting what the future holds for climate is a tricky business; nothing is ever certain.

But our best guess is that human-induced global warming is going to dry out much of the arid lands in Africa's Sahel region, areas around the Mediterranean Sea, the fringes of China's Gobi desert, parts of South America and southwestern North America.

Moderate estimates by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predict that deserts will expand 10 percent worldwide by the year 2100. But it could be much worse.

The computer models the IPCC used for their latest estimate neglected a key aspect of climate: When trees dry out and die en masse, they leave behind a brighter landscape that reflects more sunlight back out into space.

This causes land to stay cooler, a death sentence for arid regions that rely on heat to draw in nourishing monsoonal winds and rain from the ocean.

According to Ning Zeng and Jinho Yoon of the University of Maryland, College Park, the increasing brightness could triple the amount of desert expansion expected by the end of the 21st century. Such a change would imperil millions of people who depend on already scarce water resources for drinking, growing crops and raising livestock.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/08/19/desert-expansion.html

...


Is 350 the right number to stop climate change? (Hint: Think greenhouse gases)

What is the "right" level of carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere to prevent "dangerous" interference with the climate? In the last two centuries, concentrations have risen to roughly 387 parts per million—and are rising by roughly 2 ppm per year thanks to the more than 30 billion metric tons of CO2 humans put into the atmosphere annually through things like burning fossil fuels and cutting down trees. (That's up from 280 ppm for all of recorded history before the Industrial Revolution.)

Climatologist James Hansen, for one, thinks the answer is 350 ppm. While recent changes are small compared to the massive climate shifts in the Earth's history—as much as 10 degrees Celsius warmer—the reasons for today's shift is different (humans) as is the speed. "Humans are now 10,000 times more powerful than natural geologic changes," Hansen said at a conference this past Saturday organized by students of Columbia University's masters program in climate and society to examine whether (and why) 350 ppm might be the right number. "We're now, unfortunately, in charge of future changes."

Hansen’s prescription to get down to 350 and avoid most of the unpleasant side effects of climate change, such as sea level rise: Stop burning coal and reforest marginal land, the former to stop putting tons of CO2 into the atmosphere and the latter to soak some of it back up. To do that will require a hefty price on CO2 emissions (ameliorated somewhat, in his opinion, by a dividend back to every American taxpayer). "I hope cap-and-trade doesn't pass because we need to have a more effective approach than that."

Others had different ideas. Environmental scientist Daniel Hillel noted that the mauling of global soils by modern agriculture had resulted in the emission of 20 tons of carbon per hectare per year but that this actually represented an opportunity, through good soil management, to put back into the soil some 600 to 900 megatonnes of carbon per year for the next several decades. "Our task is to reverse this process of degradation and spewing of CO2," he said, "and restore carbon to the soil."

One important possibility for that is so-called biochar—blackened biomass (read: charcoal) that can improve the fertility of soils and trap carbon at the same time. The anomalously fertile soils found in parts of the Amazon can be traced to such biochar, known locally as terra preta, created hundreds of years ago by its pre-Columbian inhabitants. Doing that on a broader scale could help the climate change problem, argued biogeochemist Johannes Lehmann of Cornell University.

Activist Majora Carter similarly argued for a "horticultural infrastructure"—large-scale urban forestry, green roofs, local agriculture, even wetlands restoration—to replace the concrete infrastructure that currently exists as well as a national grid to move renewable electricity from the middle of the country to the coasts, perhaps built along the current interstate system. "We would not have a dire climate crisis if we actually cared about poor people," she said, noting that mountaintop removal mining, power plants, incinerators, industrial hog farms and the like—the point sources for greenhouse gas emissions—are only found in impoverished communities. "The promised land is not black or white or brown or even yellow. The promised land is green."

At the same time, it is unlikely that industries such as coal will be simply shut down, argued Columbia law professor Michael Gerrard. "The last time the U.S. government shut down a lawful industry required a constitutional amendment, had all kinds of collateral effects and didn't last very long," he noted of Prohibition for alcohol in the early 20th century. That said "today, every new coal plant has a smokestack, a boiler and a lawsuit."

The real key to moving away from coal will be creating a carbon market that puts a punitive price on CO2-creating fossil fuel burning, said economist Gernot Wagner of the Environmental Defense Fund. Given existing technologies, he estimated the cost of combating climate change globally at $400 billion per year for the next five years. "This is AIG territory," he admitted, referring to the price tag of the bailout to the insurance giant. The "only way" to pay for that now that government coffers have been emptied by the financial crisis would be a robust market in trading the right to emit CO2.

Of course, maybe the problem will solve itself—at least that's what folks who believe in peak oil, peak fossil fuels or "peak everything" would argue, such as peak oil educator and author Richard Heinberg. Peak anything, simply put, is the point at which producers are pulling as much as will ever be possible of a given fossil fuel, say, as will ever be possible, ushering in potentially catastrophic shortages if demand for said fossil fuel continues to grow. His estimates of true coal reserves argue that "the worst of IPCC emission scenarios won't happen," he said of the possible pathways for CO2 emissions over the next century put out by the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). "The amount of coal and other fossil fuels actually extractable corresponds to the lowest IPCC scenarios." That isn't an excuse for inaction, however, he added.

And probably one of the most significant and easiest actions that could be taken is to simply stop cutting down trees. Such activity contributes one-fifth of human CO2 emissions, or "more CO2 emissions than all the world's planes, trains and automobiles," according to Papua New Guinea's climate negotiator (and YouTube phenomenon) Kevin Conrad. "Forests could provide time for us to implement other new technologies," he noted. "What we're talking about here is a technology that everyone already understands: how not to cut a tree."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=is-350-the-right-number-to-stop-cli-2009-05-04

BlackSwan
08-20-2009, 02:33 PM
World's Oceans Set Temperature Record

Aug. 20, 2009 -- July marked the hottest the world's oceans have been in almost 130 years of record-keeping. Meteorologists said a combination of forces are at work: A natural El Nino system on top of worsening man-made global warming, and a dash of random weather variations.

The resulting ocean heat is already harming threatened coral reefs. It could also hasten the melting of Arctic sea ice and help hurricanes strengthen.

The average water temperature worldwide in July was 62.6 degrees, according to the National Climatic Data Center, the branch of the U.S. government that keeps world weather records.

June was only slightly cooler, while August could set another record, scientists said.

The previous record was set in July 1998 during a powerful El Nino weather pattern.

The Gulf of Mexico, where warm water fuels hurricanes, has temperatures dancing around 90. Most of the water in the Northern Hemisphere has been considerably warmer than normal. The Mediterranean is about three degrees warmer than normal. Higher temperatures rule in the Pacific and Indian Oceans.

The heat is most noticeable near the Arctic, where water temperatures are as much as 10 degrees above average. The tongues of warm water could help melt sea ice from below and even cause thawing of ice sheets on Greenland, said Waleed Abdalati, director of the Earth Science and Observation Center at the University of Colorado.

Breaking heat records in water is more ominous as a sign of global warming than breaking temperature marks on land, because water takes longer to heat up and does not cool off as easily as land.

"This warm water we're seeing doesn't just disappear next year; it'll be around for a long time," said climate scientist Andrew Weaver of the University of Victoria in British Columbia. It takes five times more energy to warm water than land.

The warmer water "affects weather on the land," Weaver said. "This is another yet really important indicator of the change that's occurring."
Georgia Institute of Technology atmospheric science professor Judith Curry said water is warming in more places than usual, something that has not been seen in more than 50 years.

Add to that an unusual weather pattern this summer where the warmest temperatures seem to be just over oceans, while slightly cooler air is concentrated over land, said Deke Arndt, head of climate monitoring at the climate data center.

The pattern is so unusual that he suggested meteorologists may want to study that pattern to see what's behind it.

The effects of that warm water are already being seen in coral reefs, said C. Mark Eakin, coordinator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's coral reef watch. Long-term excessive heat bleaches colorful coral reefs white and sometimes kills them.

Bleaching has started to crop up in the Florida Keys, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands -- much earlier than usual. Typically, bleaching occurs after weeks or months of prolonged high water temperatures. That usually means September or October in the Caribbean, said Eakin. He found bleaching in Guam Wednesday. It's too early to know if the coral will recover or die. Experts are "bracing for another bad year," he said.

The problems caused by the El Nino pattern are likely to get worse, the scientists said.

An El Nino occurs when part of the central Pacific warms up, which in turn changes weather patterns worldwide for many months. El Nino and its cooling flip side, La Nina, happen every few years.

During an El Nino, temperatures on water and land tend to rise in many places, leading to an increase in the overall global average temperature. An El Nino has other effects, too, including dampening Atlantic hurricane formation and increasing rainfall and mudslides in Southern California.

Warm water is a required fuel for hurricanes. What's happening in the oceans "will add extra juice to the hurricanes," Curry said.

Hurricane activity has been quiet for much of the summer, but that may change soon, she said. Hurricane Bill quickly became a major storm and the National Hurricane Center warned that warm waters are along the path of the hurricane for the next few days.

Hurricanes need specific air conditions, so warmer water alone does not necessarily mean more or bigger storms, said James Franklin, chief hurricane specialist at the National Hurricane Center in Miami.

...
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/08/20/ocean-temperature-02.html