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Young blood
02-18-2009, 09:55 AM
This is a wonderful description.






Die Together, Live Alone by Luhks
Posted by DarkUFO at 10:41 (Comments: 42) Comment Pop-up
Labels: Luhks, Recaps, This Place is Death


I have had the privilege of writing about each Lost episode over the past two seasons. The show has produced some excellent episodes in that span, most notably Episode 4.05, The Constant. Desmond’s Season Four time trip (penned by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse) was by all means an outstanding achievement, an emotional and cerebral journey that reshaped the viewer’s outlook on the series. A full season later, audiences now have been treated with Episode 5.05, This Place is Death, written by Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz. This veteran Lost writing tandem brings it own unique blend of dark humor, introspection, and thematic connections to the show. In my opinion, This Place is Death is the finest Lost episode since the ending of Season Three, which concluded with the Kitsis/Horowitz classic Greatest Hits and the Lindelof/Cuse epic Through the Looking Glass. In its own way, this episode similarly alters perspectives on Lost’s past, present, and future. The Island means many things to many people, but quite possibly its most important meaning is expressed in those four words: “this place is death.”

The experience of watching This Place is Death nearly defies description. Many people have commented that the episode felt much longer than usual. The storytelling on display is remarkably succinct. The episode managed to compress four meaningful stories (Danielle and the Monster, Sun and Jin, Daniel and Charlotte, Locke and the Island) into a single hour. Rather than feeling disjointed, though, each of these stories links together beautifully, and offers its own take on that overarching theme expressed in its title. Another important sign of a masterful episode is the way in which the actors respond to the script. By my count, the episode included four truly great acting performances (Jeremy Davies, Daniel Dae Kim, Rebecca Mader, and Terry O’Quinn), along with a full complement of strong supporting turns. However, I think the best way for me to illustrate my feelings for the episode is not to praise the writing or the acting, but to make the following confession. For the first time, I find myself utterly intimidated by a Lost episode. As amazing as The Constant was, I still felt fairly confident that I could express my reaction to it in a single article. Not so for This Place is Death. I do not think that my words will be able to do it justice. I will begin, anyway.


EKO: If you don't mind, I will begin at the beginning. Long before Christ the king of Judah was a man named Josiah.
LOCKE: Boy, when you say beginning, you mean beginning.

The first segment of the episode connects two core pieces of Lost mythology that were introduced in the Pilot episode: the Monster and Danielle Rousseau. Part One of the Pilot offered the first glimpse at the power of the Island's supernatural enforcer, the Smoke Monster. In the first attempt to find rescue from the island, Jack, Kate, and Charlie ventured out into the jungle to find the plane’s transceiver. When it seemed as if their mission was accomplished, the Monster attacked for the first time, murdering the pilot and nearly preventing the team from recovering the radio. This Place is Death begins with a compressed version of comparable events, sixteen years earlier. Another strangely familiar group of people crashes onto the same island, and then ventures into the jungle in search of a radio transmitter. The Monster attacks the group on their way, to prevent them from reaching the equipment. Later in this episode, Robert echoes Danielle's memorable phrase that the Monster functions as a 'Security System' for guarding the Temple. Neither the Oceanic search party nor the French research team seemed to pose any direct threat to the Temple; the two groups of castaways were only looking for an escape route. Although Robert's description might be true, it does not offer a complete explanation of the Monster's behavior.


The Great Radzinsky used a different name for the creature, Cerberus, which offers another clue as to its purpose. In Greek mythology, Cerberus was the name given to the three-headed canine beast, which guards the gates of Hades, to prevent souls from escaping. No one who crosses into the underworld is ever supposed to return to the world of the living. Lost’s version of Cerberus seems to serve that same function for the Island. It possesses other abilities as well: the ability to re-animate corpses (Yemi and perhaps Christian), and to infect living bodies (Montand and Robert). In the seminal episode Walkabout, John Locke stared down the Monster face-to-face. Since that point, Locke has taken it upon himself to perform the task designated to Cerberus: to ensure that no one ever leaves the Island. It was Locke who eventually smashed that same transceiver, who detonated the Flame station, destroyed the submarine, killed Naomi, and turned a gun on his friends as they trekked to the radio tower. Locke may not be 'infected' in the same manner as Robert, but he has been acting as the willing agent of Cerberus for some time.


SHANNON: I'm alone now. On the island alone. Please, someone come. The others, they're … they're dead. It killed them. It killed them all.

Part Two of the Pilot concluded when the gang used the transceiver intercept the transmission from the radio tower. While the Monster in Part One served as a warning not to leave, Rousseau’s words in Part Two served to foreshadow the ultimate fate of the Oceanic passengers. The necessary corollary of the Island's command “You are not supposed to leave,” is the unspoken conclusion: “You are supposed to die here.” Jin’s rapid time-jumping in this episode accelerates our perception of the ultimate effect of the Island. One minute, you might be chatting about baby names, and the next minute, you might be forced to shoot your family members in the face. Rousseau had enough wits to outlive her team, but eventually Keamy (derived from Kimi, the Mayan symbol for Death) arrived to slaughter Danielle and her daughter. The one common link between Adam and Eve, the Black Rock, the Dharma Initiative, the French team, Henry Gale, the Nigerian plane, the Others, the Oceanic castaways, and the Kahana Freighter is that everyone dies on the Island. People on the Island do not merely grow peacefully into old age, leave behind a healthy family, and expire from natural causes. Instead, every character inevitably meets some horrible and violent end, when his work is complete. Death is the Island’s only Constant.


JACK: We're all here now. And god knows how long we're going to be here. But if we can't live together, we're going to die alone.

If the people on the Island have no power over Death, then what things can they control? The motif of ‘live together or die alone’ permeated the first four seasons, as the Oceanic crash survivors struggled to unite in their efforts to avoid death. Over that span, the tumultuous marriage of Sun and Jin has paralleled the ups and downs of the larger Island family. In Season Five, the divide among the group is wider than ever before. This particular story calls attention to the distance between Sun and Jin, not only on different hemispheres, but across decades of time. This episode employs night-and-day imagery to amplify this effect, but interestingly it casts Jin and the rest of the Island team in sunlight, while it surrounds Sun and everyone else with darkness.


This Place is Death forces Lost's preeminent couple into a novel predicament, which tests the bonds of their marriage. Jin witnesses a firsthand demonstration of the Island's power, and then he receives Charlotte's direct warning about the its nature. He resolves to live up to the same promise that Robert failed to keep: “I don't want anything to happen to us. To you, or to our baby.” On one hand, Sun and Ji Yeon can remain safe off the island, but she can never see Jin again. On the other hand, Sun can return to the Island, a place where Death can and probably will strike them soon. Essentially, Mr. and Mrs. Kwon were given the choice: would you prefer to die together or live alone? Jin chooses never to see his wife and daughter again, rather than put their lives in danger. Sun would prefer to risk her own death again on the island, rather than live the rest of her life apart from Jin. The husband and wife make opposite choices, each motivated by love of the other. Their wedding ring travels across an ocean of space and time to bind them together once again. Ultimately, Sun punches a one-way ticket back to the underworld, to join her husband, till death do them part.


DESMOND: Please, let me go back. Let me go back one more time. I'll do it right. I'll do it right this time. [...] I'll change it. I'll change it. -- Flashes Before Your Eyes

The journey to the underworld operates as a common theme throughout literature. For an epic hero like Odysseus of Homer’s Odyssey, the underworld serves merely an intermediary stage as part of a larger journey. Typically, the hero interacts with ghosts from the past, and receives visions of the future, before he moves on to the next phase. For other mythological figures, though, the underworld can serve as the focal point of the entire journey. The most famous example of such a character is Orpheus. In the Greek myth of Orpheus, his beloved young bride Eurydice suffers an untimely death, and then he ventures into Hades to bring her back to life. Desmond has long served as Lost’s version of Odysseus, and now Daniel Faraday has become the show’s sci-fi version of Orpheus. How far will Faraday go in his efforts to bring Charlotte back? Of course, he will try to warn her, and try to harness the temporal power of the Island to change the past. (I would not be surprised to see Daniel search for Jughead, to destroy the island some time between Charlotte’s departure as a child and her return as an adult. In doing so, Daniel may try to destroy Death itself.) Eventually, Orpheus was granted an opportunity to take Eurydice back from the underworld, on the sole condition that he must never look back at her on his way out. Tragically, Orpheus could not overcome the temptation, and he lost Eurydice once again. As Faraday himself explained: "You cannot change anything. You can't. Even if you tried to, it wouldn't work. [...] If we try to do anything different, we will fail every time." The same rules apply to ancient mythology as well as to Lost: death is more powerful than love.


The story of Charlotte Lewis by no means follows the path of the typical Lost character. (Depending on the chronology of the time jumps, she may have died even before she was born, or at least at a young age.) As a child, she received a message from Daniel, warning her that she would die if she ever returned to the island. Benjamin Linus, who is Death incarnate for the Dharma Initiative, murdered her entire people. Despite Daniel’s warning and her mother’s efforts to dissuade her (or, more accurately, probably because of those events), she spent her entire life trying to find This Place again, to find her Death. She immersed herself in study of ancient history, embracing the world of the dead rather than the living. She studied the Carthaginians, another race of people wiped away from existence by a group of Latin-speaking killers, the Romans. When she first appeared on-screen, in Season Four’s Confirmed Dead, she was shrugging off the sight of 324 bodies, and digging up skeletons with a morbid grin. She survived another brush with Linus, the Dharma killer, but he eventually killed her anyway (by turning the wheel that caused her fatal sickness). There is no morality here in her story, no redemption, no personal fulfillment. The only force at play in her life was Death itself. Charlotte’s entire life can be summarized by the memorable image from the beginning of the episode: an unstoppable black hand, dragging her down underground to her doom.


LOCKE: [It] kept saying they're dead, it killed them all, over and over? Is that a place you really want to lead people to? – The Greater Good

In addition to bringing death to Dharma, Benjamin Linus has been a destructive force for the Oceanic survivors. Linus shot Locke at the mass grave, he ordered the death of Charlie, and he destroyed everyone on the Freighter without a second thought. The ending of This Place is Death reveals the true source of the massive Island casualties of Season Five. (Daniel’s empirical breakdown of the situation early in the episode hints to this same conclusion.) The 'very bad things' that happened over the first five episodes did not occur because of the helicopter’s departure. The You in Because You Left refers to one man. Ben’s actions at the Orchid station not only cast out the Oceanic Six, but also tossed the Island’s inhabitants into temporal disaster. In his most important moment of the episode, though, Ben describes himself as a protector, not a killer: “If you had any idea what I’ve had to do to keep you safe, to keep your friends safe, then you’d never stop thanking me.” Ben’s outburst in response to Jack’s threat seems uncharacteristically sincere. As always, his words most likely are designed to conceal the truth. I suspect that the more honest phrasing of his sentence would be: “If you had any idea of the things that I’ve actually done to your friends, then you’d really want me dead.” Sayid, for one, distrusts Ben entirely, and he either knows or at least suspects that Locke did not die from suicide. In his fateful meeting with Bentham, perhaps Linus finally finished the job he started in The Man Behind The Curtain, to add John's body to his personal pile of corpses.


John Locke lived his life with hopes of becoming a great leader. At the end of Season Four, his dream appeared to come true. The Island had cast out his two rivals, Jack and Ben, and chosen him to lead the people left behind. The ending of This Place is Death reveals the true nature of the destiny he had been seeking for so long. He was chosen not as a leader, but as a martyr, the sacrifice that the Island demanded. His whole life had been pointing him towards his one great accomplishment, his death. In possibly the most heartbreaking moment of the entire series, Locke accepts his fate, without a single complaint. He loses everything in one scene, more than any character in this epic story called Lost. Locke loses his friends as the Island buries him under its surface; he once again loses the power to walk, in a remarkably painful fashion; he loses his beloved Island, never to return to it in living form; and ultimately he will lose his life. In exchange, he gains nothing, except the assurance that someone believed in him.


This Place is Death provides an onslaught of macabre imagery that one hardly would expect to find in an ABC prime-time drama: the innocent faces of Danielle Rousseau and her friends, ghosts trapped in the tragic prison of the past; the determined face of Jin, as he declares himself dead in an attempt to spare his wife and daughter; the pale face of Charlotte Lewis, spewing forth blood and random memories, as her brain slips through time; and the anguished face of John Locke, as he crawls willingly to the altar of his self-sacrifice. After This Place is Death, Locke will never see the Island again in this life. I do not think that I ever will see this place in the same way, either. According to Christian belief, the sacrifice of Jesus made it possible for his followers to enjoy eternal life. I doubt whether John's sacrifice will accomplish as much in this story, but his death ensures that when these characters die, they will at least die together. If death seems to be a given on Lost, then dying together might be the nearest thing possible to a happy ending.

chairmenmeow47
02-18-2009, 09:58 AM
i can't wait to finish reading that later. after re-watching, i did enjoy the episode more. i think when i watch live i sometimes think less of the episode because i've been waiting for it all week and want some damned answers!!!

marooko
02-18-2009, 10:25 AM
i may have asked this, but ill ask again. anyone wanna let me borrow seasons 1-3 on DVD?

captncrzy
02-18-2009, 10:55 AM
That was a great read, YB

chairmenmeow47
02-18-2009, 10:57 AM
definitely awesome, thanks for sharing.

i still wonder if the smoke monster and jacob are working towards the same end though...

atom heart
02-18-2009, 12:43 PM
That ep was certainly intense. I like this guy's view.
It reminded me strongly of the old episodes I like, trekking through the jungle in search of answers. It was one of the few later episodes that scared me like the ep when Claire was kidnapped (my benchmark for scary TV).

Unfortunately I have class tonight AND it's snowing.

kitt kat
02-18-2009, 03:36 PM
i may have asked this, but ill ask again. anyone wanna let me borrow seasons 1-3 on DVD?

i've been streaming them off surf the channel/downloading off torrent sites.

Cancersticks1
02-18-2009, 04:40 PM
Just finished rewatching seasons 1-4 and it's really helped. For one it sure as hell doesn't seem like the whole "Ben wasn't supposed to turn the wheel in the first place" thing was an afterthought, several things Ben says and many of his actions support that he saw that as an oppurtunity to stick it to Whidmore, rather than what he was "supposed" to do. By the end of season 4 Ben seems to have forsaken any higher purpose he might have had in a blind fury, drawing into question whether or not he's currently working toward the islands/anyones best interest or still hell bent on vendetta. It's also debunked several plausible theories I've read. In particular, one suggesting that all the apparitions that have appeared could be explained by the time traveling. I'm sorry, but even if we allow that Christian was alive somehow and time traveled back as a prophet, I cant see why he would bother to go back, tell Michael he can leave now and allow himself to be blown up. Besides, that theory was wack anyway as time travel on the show hasn't been shown to be in any way that precise or controlable. Goddamn I love this show.

p.s. That promo photo strikes me as a shit job in retouching rather than foreshadowing.

marooko
02-18-2009, 04:48 PM
i've been streaming them off surf the channel/downloading off torrent sites.

i dont have enough space to download them. i need a new HDD.

chairmenmeow47
02-18-2009, 04:56 PM
i know watching online is a pain, but the abc player is quite good and is free and doesn't take up space on your computer. if i had 1-3, i'd lend it out, sorry!

and i totally agree about re-watching and realizing how silly some of the theories seem now.

Blinken
02-18-2009, 04:57 PM
I plan to rewatch everything after this season.

marooko
02-18-2009, 05:15 PM
i know watching online is a pain, but the abc player is quite good and is free and doesn't take up space on your computer. if i had 1-3, i'd lend it out, sorry!

and i totally agree about re-watching and realizing how silly some of the theories seem now.

thank you.


what gets me is that i havent seen them (the first 3 seasons). when those people on the raft found Jin, and the lady told him her name, it looked like he knew her. i was completely lost (pardon the pun), but felt like i should know who she was.

blakely
02-18-2009, 06:11 PM
is it just me or does kate ALWAYS look like she is about to cry?

Cancersticks1
02-18-2009, 07:13 PM
thank you.


what gets me is that i havent seen them (the first 3 seasons). when those people on the raft found Jin, and the lady told him her name, it looked like he knew her. i was completely lost (pardon the pun), but felt like i should know who she was.

Wow. Yeah, you need to go back and watch those before you watch another episode, seriously.

atom heart
02-18-2009, 07:32 PM
***SPOILERS***EAST COAST

Why the hell is no one like, WTF what are you doing abandoning children with... abandon. Aaron???!!! Sun's daughter??!! Why? CHILDREN!

I was seriously wishing that Kate was dead. But nope. She'll live to mess with Jack, Saywer and everyone in myriad ways before it's all over.

Ben gets BEAT. But by whom? Widmore cronies? Enemies unknown? What happened to his plot to kill Penny? What happened to Widmore and his race to the island? What is Widmore up to at all?

Mrs Hawking is irritating. The Lamp-post is really cool. I like Lost's retro-future stations.

I kept thinking that Locke was going to wake up and scare Jack. Maybe I'm just trained to think that way because of all the cheesy horror films I've seen.

I'm not sure I like having them all back on the island-- especially Ben--- but especially Kate and Jack. I just wish they would both fall into a punji trap already.

-------END--------

WTF

Young blood
02-18-2009, 08:53 PM
I loved this episode especially Jack waking up in the Jungle and the time loops. It was exactly the same opening sequence the beginning and I think two other episodes. There were many holes but im not to worried any more they will all be answered. Oh and Locks note saying what Jacks father always did.

<3 lost

Somewhat Damaged
02-18-2009, 09:13 PM
Most curious thing is that Jin apparently didn't recognize Jack, Kate, and Hurley. I think they returned to the island in the past (like around the time that Ben arrived there as a child). And yeah, who fucked Ben up?

kitt kat
02-18-2009, 09:17 PM
this just got intense

kitt kat
02-18-2009, 10:39 PM
So-so episode....I just liked all the Jack scenes. What a hottie.

I finished season 1 and I'm halfway through 2. Yay.

ivankay
02-18-2009, 11:06 PM
Most curious thing is that Jin apparently didn't recognize Jack, Kate, and Hurley. I think they returned to the island in the past (like around the time that Ben arrived there as a child). And yeah, who fucked Ben up?

i thought it was one of those "I can't fucking believe you're here!" looks. They are in the time Daniel was in the opening scene of the first episode of this awesome season. Why are the infiltrating the Dharma Initiative? Are they going to try to correct their place in time?

Lost rules.

OnlyNonStranger
02-18-2009, 11:09 PM
You can watch every episode streaming on abc.com

..don't ever catch up

tessalasset
02-18-2009, 11:11 PM
jin definitely recognized them. jennie thought they were in the dharma inish just on a more superficial level. trying to hide out and not be noticed.

and yeah that episode fucking owned.

bballarl
02-18-2009, 11:41 PM
That episode was necessary if nothing else.

Sexecutioner
02-19-2009, 12:06 AM
i wonder what happened to get the rest of them (kate, hurley, sayid) on that plane???

Down Rodeo
02-19-2009, 02:00 AM
I was slightly disappointed with this episode. I was hoping for a better explanation than just "get the fuck on this plane and hopefully you'll crash on the island again."

Oh well, next week's episode with all the Locke stuff is gonna own.

Sushov23
02-19-2009, 02:05 AM
I was slightly disappointed with this episode. I was hoping for a better explanation than just "get the fuck on this plane and hopefully you'll crash on the island again."

Oh well, next week's episode with all the Locke stuff is gonna own.

Yeah that was fucking whack, they really should have come up with a better reason for that. Also Ben got fucked up!, Probably by Sayid.

apostle2
02-19-2009, 04:08 AM
This was one of my favorite episodes of the later seasons. I have no problem with suspending my disbelief and waiting around for answers, so I'm not questioning the O6 getting on the plane, or what happened to aaron, etc. That will come. What's important to me is Hawking's exposition, locke's wrenching suicide note, and "we're not going to Guam, are we?"

JClemy
02-19-2009, 05:33 AM
This episode really built up well for the future. I'm wondering though if the 6 are back on the island would the pilot have gone too? He was on the island but he wasn't on the original plane. Frank better hope he's not like the original pilot.

Somewhat Damaged
02-19-2009, 05:40 AM
i thought it was one of those "I can't fucking believe you're here!" looks.


jin definitely recognized them.

The reason I thought he didn't was because he didn't put his gun down until they said his name. When Sawyer had the gun on Jin in the previous episode, he put it down as soon as he saw Jin because he recognized him and knew he was a friend. Jin saw their faces in full view for a couple seconds before whoever it was said "Jin?" Like it was their recognition of him was what prompted him to put his gun down.

BobCaygeon
02-19-2009, 06:16 AM
I hope we get more Lapidus.

And, are the two new people that were in first class with the O6 going to be with us for a while? They were too recognizable as actors (the guy, anyway) for them to be red shirts.

captncrzy
02-19-2009, 07:44 AM
Oh and Locks note saying what Jacks father always did.

<3 lost


Huh?


I was slightly disappointed with this episode. I was hoping for a better explanation than just "get the fuck on this plane and hopefully you'll crash on the island again."

Oh well, next week's episode with all the Locke stuff is gonna own.

Yeah, how did the plane know to crash?

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 07:44 AM
I loved this episode especially Jack waking up in the Jungle and the time loops. It was exactly the same opening sequence the beginning and I think two other episodes. There were many holes but im not to worried any more they will all be answered. Oh and Locks note saying what Jacks father always did.

<3 lost

i loved the opener, it was even the same music, which was also used as the dvd menu music for the first disc of season 1.

the big question here is WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED WITH AARON!?

i am going to guess that kate left aaron with clementine's mom. that's the only explanation i can come up with. i still feel that kate was asked by sawyer to look in on clementine before he jumped from the 'copter, kate then finds out clementine's mom is her fugitive buddy and they become friends. kate tells this women some of the truth, as it relates to sawyer at least. when kate realizes she has to go back to the island, she then leaves the baby with this women as this women is the only person who might have a slight clue as to what happened with aaron's mom and adoptive mother. just my theory, but i tend to be wrong.

how odd that the island got "unstuck" from time in the past though. seems odd also that some super secret science project would also allow some random, undocumented korean to work on their island as well, lol. i want to see what happened there. and so this means it's what, the 60s or 70s? that would mean locke comes back after disappearing in 1954 and after alpert witnessed his birth and all that as fucking jesus or something.

and what was up with hurley and sayid? i assume hurley was released as the charges couldn't stick, but why was sayid arrested and being taken to fucking guam? was that a ben thing i wonder? we see the person walking with sayid in the trailer for the next episode, so maybe. who knows. and why was ben all bloody? i assume he went after penny, but i wonder if that didn't go too well based on his face and lack of joy, lol.

and if i were a flight attendant, i would have run screaming from the plane with 5 of the oceanic 6. SERIOUSLY, NO ONE NOTICED THAT?!?!?!?!? i'm also pissed that walt wasn't involved in any of this.

so did the plane crash? or did the "time warp" just suck certain losties back to the island? guess we'll have to tune in next week :)

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 08:09 AM
how was kate able to fly? she would have had to use a fake name or something, right? how did NO ONE NOTICE HER?!

locachica73
02-19-2009, 08:17 AM
I need to stop reading this thread before watching the show.

ivankay
02-19-2009, 08:30 AM
how was kate able to fly? she would have had to use a fake name or something, right? how did NO ONE NOTICE HER?!

The same powerful forces that had a hand in getting them all on the same flight the first time around probably made it easy for them to get on the flight.

ivankay
02-19-2009, 08:31 AM
I need to stop reading this thread before watching the show.

Do you read the last page of a book before you're close to done? Do you open your presents early?

locachica73
02-19-2009, 08:34 AM
ummm... funny story, I actually do read the last page of a book after I get through the first few chapters to see if I am right as to "who done it". I do not get very many presents though so I don't open them early.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 09:01 AM
Huh?

Yeah I was drunk.



i loved the opener, it was even the same music, which was also used as the dvd menu music for the first disc of season 1.


how odd that the island got "unstuck" from time in the past though. seems odd also that some super secret science project would also allow some random, undocumented korean to work on their island as well, lol. i want to see what happened there. and so this means it's what, the 60s or 70s? that would mean locke comes back after disappearing in 1954 and after alpert witnessed his birth and all that as fucking jesus or something.



Im not to sure as to the time period, I think I might have to go to lostpedia for the timeline. It was badass to see jin in the dharma suit though. Also I dont think Kate had to hide her identity. She got everything cleared up right?

I think this time loop keeps happening over and over again but, new layers keep getting added to the time loop. Ben becoming the leader of the others.....his now self directing the others to find his younger self. That's why he knows so much. Data entry is a bitch but that's why he knows so much about the oceanic 815. Its a list he gave to himself. Such as Farraday is creating notes to give to himself, and now the oceanic 815 survivors either time correcting their ultimate plane crash on the island or guiding their destiny and themselves to the plane crash. It will be fun to watch everyone creating their ultimate destiny and all about dharma's and everyones past.
(back to the future 2, biff with the sport betting book 1955! 1.21 Gigawatts! )

My favorite part of this entire episode was Desmond breaking free from the ultimate game of control, and telling Jack and everyone off in the lightpost. This is not the last of Desmond though im sure.

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 09:12 AM
Yeah I was drunk.





Im not to sure as to the time period, I think I might have to go to lostpedia for the timeline. It was badass to see jin in the dharma suit though. Also I dont think Kate had to hide her identity. She got everything cleared up right?

I think this time loop keeps happening over and over again but, new layers keep getting added to the time loop. Ben becoming the leader of the others.....his now self directing the others to find his younger self. That's why he knows so much. Data entry is a bitch but that's why he knows so much about the oceanic 815. Its a list he gave to himself. Such as Farraday is creating notes to give to himself, and now the oceanic 815 survivors either time correcting their ultimate plane crash on the island or guiding their destiny and themselves to the plane crash. It will be fun to watch everyone creating their ultimate destiny and all about dharma's and everyones past.
(back to the future 2, biff with the sport betting book 1955! 1.21 Gigawatts! )

My favorite part of this entire episode was Desmond breaking free from the ultimate game of control, and telling Jack and everyone off in the lightpost. This is not the last of Desmond though im sure.

according to lostpedia, dharma was around in the 70s through early 90s with the purge happening in december of 1992. so it's before 1992 on the island, but after 1970.

and i thought that part of kate's deal was that she stay put. according to lostpedia, it was 10 years probation and the requirement that she stay in calicornia. and speaking of kate, what exactly is it that she does now that she's always wearing business suits and such? she looks like she's off to some high powered business meeting in almost every off the island shot (except getting on the plane).

i also wondered if ben came back and directed the others to find his younger self. we still don't know if ben arrived back on the island with jack, hugo and kate though. if the plane didn't crash, but instead just "flashed", the island could have left ben on the plane for all we know at this point. but good theory about ben taking notes like faraday.

i also liked desmond telling everyone off and storming out. good for him, i hope he was there when ben came for penny and beat the shit outta him too.

bartelby
02-19-2009, 09:13 AM
fuck, Penny better not be dead or I'm going to have to go back to hating Ben...

i :pulse Penny

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 09:15 AM
i :pulse penny too except when she was that annoying bitch on "tell me you love me", lol.

WHERE ARE ROSE AND BERNARD?!?!?!?!

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 09:37 AM
according to lostpedia, dharma was around in the 70s through early 90s with the purge happening in december of 1992. so it's before 1992 on the island, but after 1970.

and i thought that part of kate's deal was that she stay put. according to lostpedia, it was 10 years probation and the requirement that she stay in calicornia. and speaking of kate, what exactly is it that she does now that she's always wearing business suits and such? she looks like she's off to some high powered business meeting in almost every off the island shot (except getting on the plane).

i also wondered if ben came back and directed the others to find his younger self. we still don't know if ben arrived back on the island with jack, hugo and kate though. if the plane didn't crash, but instead just "flashed", the island could have left ben on the plane for all we know at this point. but good theory about ben taking notes like faraday.

i also liked desmond telling everyone off and storming out. good for him, i hope he was there when ben came for penny and beat the shit outta him too.

I thought the same thing, Kate may be good at running et al. But she's pretty famous now, they all are, no fucking way no one in the airport or plane other than Lapidus noticed that plane wreck waiting to happen. And yes I really really hope we get to see Desmond pound the piss out of Ben, all time travelling and kicking him in the ass while standing in front of him :)

All in all it was a fun episode, and I'm glad to be done with the O6 shit, it was getting really tedious, but they didn't really give us any info we didn't already know. All the Ajira stuff has been there to find if you care enough to look, and it's been expected since the first episode of the season that they would land in Dharma times and go undercover. It did give us a number of new questions though, what happened to the rest of the people on the plane? I don't buy that the O6 just flashed out of the plane ala "The Langoliers" they made it seem as though at least the guy who talked to Jack about "his friends" death will be making an appearance, and if they really needed to recreate the conditions of the crash it would seem that marshal #2 will show up, probably die though. I kind of doubt any of them will serve much of a purpose though, I'd say they are just making sure they don't run out of red-shirts any time soon.

I love the back and forth good guy/bad guy thing with Ben, in the same breath he's consoling Jack and stating who cares what happens to the rest of the people on the plane. Which is pretty much the same thing he said to Locke when he killed Keamy/blew up the freighter. So again, either he really sees little value in human life or knows exactly what's going to happen and who is going to make it. Maybe both.

Seems like a safe bet that Ben ratted out Sayid for killing all sorts of folks to recreate the Marshal/prisoner element. Why Guam though? Did he kill some folks in Guam and needs to be tried there? Or are Sayid and the Marshal in on it?

My best guess with Hurley is that he had a chat with Libby. Charlie, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia, etc. probably not going to have as much convincing ghost of christmas future kind of influence as Libby would.

People were theorizing before that the people shooting at Sawyer,Locke, et al. in the other canoe were the O6, which seems silly as why would they start shooting blind at someone on the island at this point? They're looking for their friends, and even if they thought it was the others, I'm guessing Ben would have something to say about that. Besides, the Losties & Others seem to be almost allies now. My guess, since there were the Ajira water bottles is either that it's other survivors of the new plane "crash" or, since we have no idea how far ahead they flashed, it could be someone entirely different and the water bottles may just have been there because they held onto them for years.

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 09:39 AM
i :pulse penny too except when she was that annoying bitch on "tell me you love me", lol.

WHERE ARE ROSE AND BERNARD?!?!?!?!

I have no beef with Penny short of wanting to know how SHE knows so much, but a dead Penny would equal as ass-kicking psycho ninja vengeance Desmond which could be awesome.

Think about it, Desmond has his finger in the dike of the space-time continuum (no I don't mean Ms. Hawking) kill the woman he loves and he's gonna be swatting butterflies and stepping on proto-fish left and right.

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 09:52 AM
i think that the whoever left the water bottle in the boat and whoever shot at the losties do not have to be the same people. we really have no clue as to who that could be at this point.

and speaking of ass kicking desmond, are we going to see an ass kicking faraday? i guess we know now that faraday didn't really CHOOSE to go back in time to warn charlotte, it just happens. how very sad for faraday :(

so are the others flashing through time as well? what happened to the flight attendant, the children, the others who weren't killed when everyone left the island, alpert... WHAT OF DONUTS, WHAAAAAAAAT?!

bartelby
02-19-2009, 10:00 AM
Cancersticks, you rule pal.... references to the Lagoliers deserve major props

marooko
02-19-2009, 10:05 AM
im getting season 1&2. im excited, but feeling burdened at the same time. thats a lot of hours in front of the magic box. fuck this show for doing this to me.

psychic friend
02-19-2009, 10:08 AM
havent read through the last few pages but all i can say is fucking lost = always more questions than answers. whatever.

malcolmjamalawesome
02-19-2009, 10:09 AM
havent read through the last few pages but all i can say is fucking lost = always more questions than answers. whatever.

That's rather defeatist.

captncrzy
02-19-2009, 10:20 AM
I hate Penny and her annoying voice..."Dezmund whea ahr uuuuuu"?

It makes me want to icepick my ears.

locachica73
02-19-2009, 10:23 AM
im getting season 1&2. im excited, but feeling burdened at the same time. thats a lot of hours in front of the magic box. fuck this show for doing this to me.

I blew through the first season in like a day and a half when I first started watching it. My sister bought it for me for my birthday or something so she could suck me into her TV watching habits. I blame her.

You will be glued to your TV for a few days but it is worth the sacrifice.

marooko
02-19-2009, 10:30 AM
I blew through the first season in like a day and a half when I first started watching it. My sister bought it for me for my birthday or something so she could suck me into her TV watching habits. I blame her.

You will be glued to your TV for a few days but it is worth the sacrifice.

yeah, thanks for letting me borrow them. ;)

Courtney
02-19-2009, 10:37 AM
That episode was meh.

TommyboyUNM
02-19-2009, 10:39 AM
I'm sure it's a fine show, but I just can't devote that much time to TV. I love all of you, though. PLUR.

locachica73
02-19-2009, 10:42 AM
yeah, thanks for letting me borrow them. ;)

lol I only have the first season and my sister "borrowed" it and has yet to return it. Welcome to the Lost world though. :)

Courtney
02-19-2009, 10:43 AM
I'm sure it's a fine show, but I just can't devote that much time to TV.

It's one hour a week. Is that that much? I can understand if you have other priorities, but time commitment seems like a weird reason.

locachica73
02-19-2009, 10:45 AM
He would have to spend 2 weeks catching up. When he is here next time I will tie him up and make him watch the first season and then he will be hooked forever...

*instert evil laugh*

Young blood
02-19-2009, 10:46 AM
I'm sure it's a fine show, but I just can't devote that much time to TV. I love all of you, though. PLUR.

It would be a huge downer to have to cut into your internetz time.

Courtney
02-19-2009, 10:46 AM
He would have to spend 2 weeks catching up.

Oh I see. Yes, it would take quite a bit of time to watch all the past seasons.

Somewhat Damaged
02-19-2009, 10:46 AM
and i thought that part of kate's deal was that she stay put. according to lostpedia, it was 10 years probation and the requirement that she stay in calicornia.

I don't know if people working at airport security would know the terms of her probation. They'd be on the lookout if she were a fugitive or something, no doubt, but I wouldn't figure that there'd be a flag on her name whenever she purchases tickets to a location outside of California.


Seems like a safe bet that Ben ratted out Sayid for killing all sorts of folks to recreate the Marshal/prisoner element. Why Guam though? Did he kill some folks in Guam and needs to be tried there? Or are Sayid and the Marshal in on it?

I doubt Sayid and the marshal are in on it being that Sayid seemed so adamantly opposed to returning to the island. And if you're right about Ben having ratted out Sayid (which I think you are), that would fly in the face of Sayid and the marshal being in on the plan.


My best guess with Hurley is that he had a chat with Libby. Charlie, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia, etc. probably not going to have as much convincing ghost of christmas future kind of influence as Libby would.

Ah, that sounds good. I hadn't thought of that.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 10:47 AM
She is not a fugitive. Yall miss season three kates court trial?

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 10:50 AM
She is not a fugitive. Yall miss season three kates court trial?

Shes on probation and supposed to stay put for 10 years.

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 10:55 AM
Ooh, I hope the losties don't all end up with "Workman" jobs. I'd love to see them separated into jobs at different stations: Hurley stuck pushing the button again, (perhaps we'll finally meet Radzinksy, perhaps we'll find that we already have met Radzinksy?) Sawyer watching over polar bears in his very cage, Jack & Juliet seeing after dying pregnant women, obviously Daniel is in the Orchid, Said could be at Mikhails station, etc.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 10:56 AM
Shes on probation and supposed to stay put for 10 years.

Probation can't hold a sistah down.

TommyboyUNM
02-19-2009, 10:56 AM
It's one hour a week. Is that that much? I can understand if you have other priorities, but time commitment seems like a weird reason.


I'd have to catch myself up first. I've never seen one episode. Then I'd have to make sure catch every week (comes on on Wednesdays, right?). I already watch enough college basketball to fill my TV viewing time. Maybe after I finish school I'll have even more time in the evenings to explore.


It would be a huge downer to have to cut into your internetz time.


Exactly.

marooko
02-19-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm sure it's a fine show, but I just can't devote that much time to TV. I love all of you, though. PLUR.

this is pretty much how i feel, except i broke down and watched an episode. now i gotta catch up. dont watch it, tommy, you'll get sucked in. im telling you. then you're gonna have to do what i plan on doing and crap away a sat or sun and catch up.



lol I only have the first season and my sister "borrowed" it and has yet to return it. Welcome to the Lost world though. :)

i hate when that happens.

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 11:53 AM
shit, so much for that theory I guess

*SPOILER*
http://spoilertv.iimmgg.com/image/c496635cf2ebf67fd2fff26434dc625f

bartelby
02-19-2009, 12:00 PM
spoilers: so tempting, yet so wrong...

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 12:42 PM
and if they really needed to recreate the conditions of the crash it would seem that marshal #2 will show up, probably die though.

she was in the teaser for next week, wasn't she?

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 12:44 PM
she was in the teaser for next week, wasn't she?

Was she? I just remember seeing Locke/Bentham stuff, I don't remember seeing much on island clips.

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 12:45 PM
She was vaguely hispanic with long dark curly hair, yes?

If so, she's there. I think it was a small blip of her talking to Sayid.

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 12:49 PM
Problem solved, I take it back.

She's talking to Locke, and here's the video proof

9oosNfLM1Wc

Also, does someone want to attempt to count Locke's toes when he's in the book about to hang himself? LOL ;)

So I do think that Marshall #2 is going to be semi-important. I also totally called the Arabic dude who gave his condolences to Jack; no show would ever give an actor that much of a featured role if they weren't intending on bringing them back.

atom heart
02-19-2009, 01:06 PM
I wasn't keen on this episode. Seemed a bit rushed, and didn't really have the gravitas I would expect from a return to the island episode.

Ben remains the weirdest, most sympathetic villain I have ever seen. He's the most interesting part of this series for me now.

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 01:22 PM
They really did drop the ball with this episode's structure. I kinda didn't want to watch after I knew from the first minute they had gone back to the island. It totally defeated the purpose of good narrative build up.

And yeah, the resolution was definitely just handed to them on a silver platter. I'm sure we'll learn more about Faraday's mom soon, and how she's connected with the Dharma people (if she even is) etc etc etc. Like PF said: too many questions, not enough answers.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 01:24 PM
ummmm.....have you been watching lost? Or just this season? There are reasons from past episodes that they deviate from textbook narrative build-up.

blakely
02-19-2009, 01:28 PM
They really did drop the ball with this episode's structure. I kinda didn't want to watch after I knew from the first minute they had gone back to the island. It totally defeated the purpose of good narrative build up.

And yeah, the resolution was definitely just handed to them on a silver platter. I'm sure we'll learn more about Faraday's mom soon, and how she's connected with the Dharma people (if she even is) etc etc etc. Like PF said: too many questions, not enough answers.

all of that seemingly innocuous crap was very important.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 01:29 PM
season 1 episode 1....0mdZeJsuHns&feature

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 01:39 PM
I wasn't keen on this episode. Seemed a bit rushed, and didn't really have the gravitas I would expect from a return to the island episode.

Ben remains the weirdest, most sympathetic villain I have ever seen. He's the most interesting part of this series for me now.

i have always loved ben. he's the most interesting character on television <3

and lost is about questions. if they just told us what happened to these people, it would seem completely insane and we wouldn't care. what i love most about this show is we unravel mysteries, for the most part, from the character's perspective. which means a whole lot of questions that won't all get answered. and i love every second of it. even though i always say episodes weren't very good right after watching, once i get to thinking about it and analyzing the questions, i realize how much i really did like it :)

and i want to do a compilation of all the posts that reflect how this show upsets dani :p

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 01:41 PM
ummmm.....have you been watching lost? Or just this season? There are reasons from past episodes that they deviate from textbook narrative build-up.

I'm just saying, from a writing perspective, it's better to hit at the end then give away the point at the beginning.

locachica73
02-19-2009, 01:43 PM
That is what sucks you in though, even before the time jumps they jumped time back and forth and each episode gave you a new little nugget of information yet gave you even more questions to answer later. I for one am glad it isn't written like most television/movies. If so it would not be as entertaining as it is.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 01:46 PM
I'm just saying, from a writing perspective, it's better to hit at the end then give away the point at the beginning.

You have missed the entire point of LOST. Im pretty sure they have answered every question and shown us the ending and we don't even know it yet.

Blinken
02-19-2009, 01:47 PM
They really did drop the ball with this episode's structure. I kinda didn't want to watch after I knew from the first minute they had gone back to the island. It totally defeated the purpose of good narrative build up.

And yeah, the resolution was definitely just handed to them on a silver platter. I'm sure we'll learn more about Faraday's mom soon, and how she's connected with the Dharma people (if she even is) etc etc etc. Like PF said: too many questions, not enough answers.

:nono

If you had not just jumped in at the end than you would see why they did it this way. This episode was filled with answers, about the original plane crash and about the island in general. You just don't know the questions that are being answered.

I think it was Cancer sticks talking about christian leaving the island then dying to get back to the island, that is 100% correct. Flight 815 was planned by someone, Faraday's mom, who made everyone travel to Australia through different motivations. Christian brought Sawyer and jack to the island. He was pushing Sawyer in the right direction. I really need to go back and rewatch season 1.

The planes crash because the cross over the island at the time of a flash, remember that was how the first plane crashed. It was no accident, Desmond was sent to the Island for a reason and he is the one that cased the flash that took down flight 815.

Young blood
02-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Knight rider 2009 might be more your speed kitt katt. Its very formulaic.





SPOLIERZ......














































The car solves the mystery every time.

chairmenmeow47
02-19-2009, 01:48 PM
what did they give us at the "beginning"? it's season 5 and they gave us a teaser of information last night. for example, we know that 3 of the oceanic 6 definitely get back to the island, but we don't know about the other 2 on the plane, ben or locke. we don't know why walt didn't have to be on board either. we don't know even know what time they went back to or if they even crashed. they didn't give us squat but more questions, which is why most of us watch.

so i wonder if faraday's mom is travelling. cause she obviously had a first encounter with desmond when he originally went to buy the ring for penny, but then had a second encounter when desmond flashed back and she knew he was having a flashback and was able to intervene. so what timeline is she on?

Blinken
02-19-2009, 01:55 PM
I don't remember much of her, I think she is in regular time though, just coordinating the trips to the island. All of the 6 being on the flight says alot about how much control the island has over everything. Ben had nothing to do with Sayid and Hurly, he was generally shocked to see them at the airport. It some invisable hand guiding them all to that flight just like flight 815.

I think Ben was right when he said the Island had no interest in Walt anymore, he served his purpose whatever that was.

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 02:15 PM
:nono

If you had not just jumped in at the end than you would see why they did it this way. This episode was filled with answers, about the original plane crash and about the island in general. You just don't know the questions that are being answered.

I think it was Cancer sticks talking about christian leaving the island then dying to get back to the island, that is 100% correct. Flight 815 was planned by someone, Faraday's mom, who made everyone travel to Australia through different motivations. Christian brought Sawyer and jack to the island. He was pushing Sawyer in the right direction. I really need to go back and rewatch season 1.

The planes crash because the cross over the island at the time of a flash, remember that was how the first plane crashed. It was no accident, Desmond was sent to the Island for a reason and he is the one that cased the flash that took down flight 815.

I mentioned that as a theory I had read elsewhere, I personally think that theory is crap. I don't think Christian is time travelling and I don't think he's ever been to the island before. The teaser for the next episode gave us more answers than this whole episode did. We see Locke apparently alive and claiming to remember dying, and saying this to the new marshal mentioned above, we get to see his discussion with Walt, so that may answer some questions, we see/hear his discussion with Ben and apparently he even meets up with Whidmore who oddly enough encourages him.

But yeah, if Lockes corpse shows up and is brought back to life in some form, it seems more likely to me that thats exactly what happened to Christian, and maybe even Yemi, as their corpses disappeared when they became "apparitions." Furthermore, I mentioned before that the "Christian is time-traveling to all these points" is wack as he shows up on the freighter to tell Michael he can leave right when the bomb explodes, that just doesnt seem all that likely if he was corporeal.

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 02:22 PM
what did they give us at the "beginning"? it's season 5 and they gave us a teaser of information last night. for example, we know that 3 of the oceanic 6 definitely get back to the island, but we don't know about the other 2 on the plane, ben or locke. we don't know why walt didn't have to be on board either. we don't know even know what time they went back to or if they even crashed. they didn't give us squat but more questions, which is why most of us watch.

so i wonder if faraday's mom is travelling. cause she obviously had a first encounter with desmond when he originally went to buy the ring for penny, but then had a second encounter when desmond flashed back and she knew he was having a flashback and was able to intervene. so what timeline is she on?

I was wondering that as well, in her first appearance with Desmond she was playing a script and knew immediately that he had changed it, and furthermore knew other events outside and around before they happened. Whats weird about that is if that was a version of her from the future with this foreknowledge, where was her past self who would have gone through those motions initially none the wiser? And if she never was a jeweler and knew she had to go back to intervene with Desmond at this point always, wheres the real jeweler? Locked up in the back? Also, why would she be surprised when he veers from the course? Thats why she's there right? And it seems at this point in the story if she had to go back to do that that she already has as she seems to remember it when Des mentions it.... *HED ASSPLODE!*

Cancersticks1
02-19-2009, 04:33 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/board/thread/130926996

I highly recommend checking that out. It's a theory someone had posted before "The Constant" had even aired, and despite a few flaws much of what was mentioned has been playing out very much the same. Seems to me like a reasonably valid clue as to where things are heading.

NicoDread
02-19-2009, 09:40 PM
This has probably been said... but I think that the reason Ben is all beat up and bloody is because he just killed Penny. He said he had to "tie up a loose end" and something about "making a promise to a friend." He appeared to be at a dock with boats around. Ben was surprised that Desmond was at Hawking's, but saw that this was his chance to get Penny. And what better way to get Desmond to go to the island then to kill his wife and then run off to the island?

rhcpdude13
02-19-2009, 09:51 PM
jesus matthews fox is FUCKING BORING

fikus222
02-19-2009, 11:29 PM
An oldie, but a goodie nonetheless

http://sasquatchfestival.com/imagecache/be19feda550045406c4db9dbd4604702.jpg

kitt kat
02-19-2009, 11:31 PM
jesus matthews fox is FUCKING BORING

you mean FUCKING GORGEOUS

shakermaker113
02-20-2009, 12:08 AM
ok. the whole "if you want me to come back dont ever ask me about aaron" thing, that was just cheap.

fikus222
02-20-2009, 12:17 AM
ok. the whole "if you want me to come back dont ever ask me about aaron" thing, that was just cheap.

I wager that Sawyer's baby's Momma has Aaron.

I did like the fact that they called the Dharma Station 'the lamppost'

What sucks is that we have maybe 2 episodes of back story just to get us to the 'present' again.

Monklish
02-20-2009, 01:04 AM
I'm just saying, from a writing perspective, it's better to hit at the end then give away the point at the beginning.

Jesus Christ, you have no idea how writing works. There is no impact to the hit at the end unless you have an emotional significance from the beginning to parallel. Please don't ever talk about writing as if you know anything about it again.

Monklish
02-20-2009, 01:08 AM
It's called creating and closing the gap, you dumb bitch. Look it up. Fucking Screenwriting 101.

chairmenmeow47
02-20-2009, 07:47 AM
I wager that Sawyer's baby's Momma has Aaron.

What sucks is that we have maybe 2 episodes of back story just to get us to the 'present' again.

my theory too, *high five*

and agreed. though it will be interesting to see what happened with locke off the island.

also, did anyone else get the feeling that the losties wouldn't be brought back to the island until jack had read the suicide letter? it felt like the island was waiting for him to take that last leap of faith before they'd allow him back. kinda like with the shoes, that was funny when jack said locke was probably laughing watching him actually do all that.

Young blood
02-20-2009, 08:33 AM
The religious overtones were huge in that episode. John3:16. It was funny with the shoes and making Locke look like he was smiling at Jack.

As much as I hate religion I love the way the writers blend all religions and science all together. Showing that they all pretty much hold the same underlying principals working for one common goal.

chairmenmeow47
02-20-2009, 08:37 AM
TONS of religious references. the shoes even reminded me of the whole "washing of the feet" thing and almost a symbol of humality that jack was finally believing in locke on some level.

i do like the blending of religion and science, but the trailer for next week showing locke taking that hood off his head seems a bit excessive. i just hope they don't get all matrix 3 on us.

Young blood
02-20-2009, 08:45 AM
Hahaha so true.

Boourns
02-20-2009, 09:36 AM
"You can stop drinking, but I can't stop having cancer!"

shakermaker113
02-20-2009, 09:50 AM
the aaron/sawyer theory is interesting. I was wondering about that episode in season 4 when jack and kate were talking, it was clear where kate had been but I think her defense was "I'm doing it for sawyer". maybe it all ties together.

fikus222
02-20-2009, 10:36 AM
TONS of religious references. the shoes even reminded me of the whole "washing of the feet" thing and almost a symbol of humality that jack was finally believing in locke on some level.

i do like the blending of religion and science, but the trailer for next week showing locke taking that hood off his head seems a bit excessive. i just hope they don't get all matrix 3 on us.

Ditto.

Plus they showed who I am pretty was Ben getting down on his knees as Locke was putting the noose around his neck. I think the voice over was something to the effect 'you have to do this in order to succeed in bringing them back' or something along those lines.

real talk
02-20-2009, 10:48 AM
Wasn't Ferraday's mother the lady that was the judge or something in the Others camp when they had Jack in that wooden cage? I read the last page but I can't go any further back.

Also, Kate is the worst character I hate her.

And the Ben killing Penny hypothesis just made me go ohhhh yeahhhh....

ps can someone remind me who Sawyer's baby mama is and also why she would have Aaron?

OnlyNonStranger
02-20-2009, 11:24 AM
Wasn't Ferraday's mother the lady that was the judge or something in the Others camp when they had Jack in that wooden cage? I read the last page but I can't go any further back.

No




ps can someone remind me who Sawyer's baby mama is and also why she would have Aaron?

One of Sawyer's long cons whom Kate meets randomly at a gas station and helps not get the cops called while peddling crap necklaces. She then turns around and returns the favor by helping Kate see her mother "one last time."

Sexecutioner
02-20-2009, 11:29 AM
Also, Kate is the worst character I hate her.

And the Ben killing Penny hypothesis just made me go ohhhh yeahhhh....



kates character really does suck. if she wasnt so damn hot, i'd want her to get killed off, but the eye candy factor is nice, and probably the only thing keeping her on the show.

and i'm guessing ben tried to kill penny, but didn't succeed. i think somebody else mentined, this, but it would be cool if desmond whooped his ass. or maybe whidmore had some security watching over her secretly that fucked ben up.

fikus222
02-20-2009, 11:40 AM
and i'm guessing ben tried to kill penny, but didn't succeed. i think somebody else mentined, this, but it would be cool if desmond whooped his ass. or maybe whidmore had some security watching over her secretly that fucked ben up.

I think so too, but wouldn't Whidmore's goons have killed Ben (he may have gotten away though) ?

chairmenmeow47
02-20-2009, 11:43 AM
Wasn't Ferraday's mother the lady that was the judge or something in the Others camp when they had Jack in that wooden cage? I read the last page but I can't go any further back.

ps can someone remind me who Sawyer's baby mama is and also why she would have Aaron?

faraday's mother was not the judge. it was this random other named isabel (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Isabel). apparently she is dead now.

i think she (cassidy phillips (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cassidy_Phillips)) might have aaron because kate probably had to tell her SOMETHING about what ACTUALLY happened during the crash since we all assume that sawyer's whisper to kate in the helicopter was asking kate to look after his kid (clementine). i mean, i'm sure that cassidy had found out that sawyer had died in the crash and she knew kate before the crash so for kate to just show up trying to help clementine, i'm sure cassidy would put two and two together or kate would have just told her since cassidy was nice enough to help kate with her mom. plus, judging from the phone conversation from season 4 in "something nice back home", kate seemed really friendly with whoever she was talking to on sawyer's behalf, so perhaps she was actually honest with her. and if cassidy knew about the real details of the crash, she would be a good protector of aaron.

even if kate never told her though, cassidy seems to be the only person in kate's life that she could trust with aaron that wouldn't ask questions. i guess she could give aaron to claire's mom, but i highly doubt that at this point. kate probably wouldn't give her to her own mother either, so who else is really left to take care of aaron?

of course, this theory is all built on the assumption that kate was actually talking to cassidy in "something nice back home" and that sawyer had asked kate to get in contact with her.

i812many
02-20-2009, 12:37 PM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/board/thread/130926996

.
That theory hurt my head. I searched for a picture of Locke's foot/feet and this is all I found. Does look like a small foot, 4 toes perhaps...

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7825/s4e1101mr0.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a><br/><a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img4/s4e1101mr0.jpg/1/"><img src="http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/s4e1101mr0.jpg/1/w320.png" border="0"></a>

real talk
02-20-2009, 05:08 PM
faraday's mother was not the judge. it was this random other named isabel (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Isabel). apparently she is dead now.

i think she (cassidy phillips (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cassidy_Phillips)) might have aaron because kate probably had to tell her SOMETHING about what ACTUALLY happened during the crash since we all assume that sawyer's whisper to kate in the helicopter was asking kate to look after his kid (clementine). i mean, i'm sure that cassidy had found out that sawyer had died in the crash and she knew kate before the crash so for kate to just show up trying to help clementine, i'm sure cassidy would put two and two together or kate would have just told her since cassidy was nice enough to help kate with her mom. plus, judging from the phone conversation from season 4 in "something nice back home", kate seemed really friendly with whoever she was talking to on sawyer's behalf, so perhaps she was actually honest with her. and if cassidy knew about the real details of the crash, she would be a good protector of aaron.

even if kate never told her though, cassidy seems to be the only person in kate's life that she could trust with aaron that wouldn't ask questions. i guess she could give aaron to claire's mom, but i highly doubt that at this point. kate probably wouldn't give her to her own mother either, so who else is really left to take care of aaron?

of course, this theory is all built on the assumption that kate was actually talking to cassidy in "something nice back home" and that sawyer had asked kate to get in contact with her.

now that's thorough

shakermaker113
02-20-2009, 06:58 PM
when did we find out sawyer even had a kid?

bliss209
02-21-2009, 06:03 AM
Ok so, I am seeing 4 possibly 5 toes......
http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/cb2d851fd17518ad5b039f9e22290100.jpg (http://spoilertv.iimmgg.com/image/44d14879e5a1b18fa7f05297a5381e49)
I know the previews love to give us "ideas" of what actually might happen, but I try not to depend upon those too much. The voice over definitely adds the intensity.

I totally concur on the Aaron/Clementine/Cassidy theory. It could totally work. And that was the ultimate question that plagued me while I watched it. And that whole moment on the bed when she stumbled into Jack's place ...... UUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!! I am definitely getting tired of her antics and cannot wait until she stumbles upon Sawyer and Juliet gettin it on!! HAHAHAHA (i really don't think that's gonna happen , but it would be nice just to piss her off) "if you really love me , you'll never ask about Aaron again" UUGGGGGHHHH!!!

Yes, what better way to get Desmond back to the island than to try and kill the one thing he loves??!! And I'm pretty sure Desmond is totally gonna fall for it. And I'm sure he will have to do the same thing the O6 had to do, recreate the same conditions that first got you there. Desmond crashed in his boat (the boat from Libby). What would be cool is to have Penny go back to the island with him. I don't think there is anyway she is ever gonna let him go again. And hey, I'm sure she loves to disobey her daddy.

Speaking of Libby, someone a few posts back had mentioned that Hurley may have talked to Libby and that may have convinced him to go back to the island. We still don't know much about Libby except for the paths she has crossed, her dead husband and a stint in the mental ward. What if Libby is actually one of the Dharma crew? Eloise's daughter? Charlotte's mom? (I'm really reaching now) :)

There has to be a back story to who/what/why when it comes to Ben, Sayhid and Hurley getting/being on the plane. Hurley wasn't jumping at the chance to explain how he knew about getting on this flight, but does anyone notice that he has a guitar? Charlie had his guitar on the plane. I'm thinking that Charlie visited him or someone else did and told him that he needed to bring something to represent Charlie.

I'm thinking that Sayhid looked a little "surprised" with everyone getting on the plane, but I'm still trying to figure all that out. I'm thinking Marshall #2 was to take the place of the Marshall #1 and that whole scenario but will perhaps will be killed off before the end of the season(if she even makes it to the island). Ben obviously was over at the boat docks when he was on the phone with Jack, so the probability of Ben going after Penny instead of Sayhid is greater, which leads me to believe that Sayhid had to set something up for him to get there or maybe Ben or Locke (the preview shows Locke talking to the Marshall off the island) set it all up in the past. I dunno...... I'm stuck on that one. I cannot seem to find any reference of Sayhid and him ever being in Guam. Who knows, she may not even be a real cop and perhaps knows all about the island.

Cancersticks - I am so with you on the Christian traveling in time theory and I have read that on a few other boards. There is no way Christian is all over the place and traveling through time. Claire, Walt and Christian are all a bit different than everyone else, but I couldn't see them traveling through time. And yes, I think that Claire and Walt are in the same "category" (whatever that may be, i dunno) as Christian. The paths they have crossed with many others and the "visits" they have had with others are too many to avoid. The only thing that bugs me about these three is that Walt and Claire didn't die, but Christian did. Charlie, Mr. Eko and Yemi are the only other ones I can think of that have come back to visit after death and these 3 died on the island. (I am sure I am totally over thinking it all as usual, but isn't that the best part of this show???)

Oh and that Stephen King "The Langoliers" was an awesome reference!!! I having a hard time buying that, too. But yet I could see that happening due to the writers not wanting to waste time on all of that explanation. But then again, I have to think that if that plane crashed with everyone on it, then Kate and Jack would have been dead upon impact. Kate landed on rocks and that bitch is still alive!!!

We will see alot more of Lapidus and I cannot wait to find out why he has to be on the island. Remember he was supposed to be the original pilot for the Oceanic flight. He may not be one of the O6, but his purpose to be on the island is yet to be done, which is why he has to go back. "Were not going to Guam, are we?" I LUV THAT!!!

Oh and I don't think they would have made an emphasis on the guy who commented on Jack's "friend" while Jack was in the ticket line at the airport without him being significant in some way shape or form. So he might also be another minor character that will die off before the end of the season. I think he is following someone.........

bliss209
02-21-2009, 06:23 AM
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/board/thread/130926996

I highly recommend checking that out. It's a theory someone had posted before "The Constant" had even aired, and despite a few flaws much of what was mentioned has been playing out very much the same. Seems to me like a reasonably valid clue as to where things are heading.


Now THATS what I'm talking about! That was a crazy theory!! I love the mesh of religion and science. Man of Faith vs Man of Science battle has been going on since day 1 and I truly feel is the basis for it all

BobCaygeon
02-21-2009, 07:01 AM
Oh and that Stephen King "The Langoliers" was an awesome reference!!! I having a hard time buying that, too. But yet I could see that happening due to the writers not wanting to waste time on all of that explanation. But then again, I have to think that if that plane crashed with everyone on it, then Kate and Jack would have been dead upon impact. Kate landed on rocks and that bitch is still alive!!!


The writers are Stephen King fans, so I could see them cribbing The Langoliers as an homage.

Cancersticks1
02-21-2009, 08:01 AM
The writers are Stephen King fans, so I could see them cribbing The Langoliers as an homage.

Ben's a Stephen King fan too :)

bliss209
02-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Ben's a Stephen King fan too :)


The writers are Stephen King fans, so I could see them cribbing The Langoliers as an homage.

oooohhhhh nice :)

bliss209
02-21-2009, 10:31 AM
when did we find out sawyer even had a kid?

S3 E4 "Every Man for Himself"

bliss209
02-21-2009, 10:38 AM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/c/cc/5x06_Caesar_Promo.jpg

Possibly following Sayhid?? Doesn't he kinda look like the friend of Sayhid that was a suicide bomber?

Monklish
02-21-2009, 10:44 AM
Racist.

fikus222
02-21-2009, 04:24 PM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/c/cc/5x06_Caesar_Promo.jpg


I bet that he made it to the Island as well.

I first saw this actor (Sad Taghmaoui) in the french film 'La Haine,' which I totally recommend.

And I am still mad at Stephen King for ruining the Gunslinger series.

ivankay
02-21-2009, 04:41 PM
Possibly following Sayhid?? Doesn't he kinda look like the friend of Sayhid that was a suicide bomber?

http://z.about.com/d/lost/1/0/a/2/-/-/38-Sayid-Calms-Essam.jpg
This is the guy Sayid knew in connection with the suicide bombing in Australia.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/13/sayid.jpg
Saw this while looking for a picture. That's funny.

Monklish
02-21-2009, 05:32 PM
I thought Farraday's mother was the judge myself. Huh.

tessalasset
02-22-2009, 03:21 AM
But then again, I have to think that if that plane crashed with everyone on it, then Kate and Jack would have been dead upon

at first i thought that too about kate, but then i thought - she could have crashed into the water, passed out on impact, and washed up on the rock.

jack's just a lucky bastard.

atom heart
02-22-2009, 07:23 AM
Hey, who's stealing from who?

http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/lj/comics/vtinesgallery/pages/valentineL06.htmt] (http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/lj/comics/vtinesgallery/pages/valentineL06.htm)

Look for the one with Michael.

ivankay
02-22-2009, 07:28 AM
Hey, who's stealing from who?

http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/lj/comics/vtinesgallery/pages/valentineL06.htmt] (http://kafkaskoffee.com/junk/lj/comics/vtinesgallery/pages/valentineL06.htm)

Look for the one with Michael.

Those are fun. i hope those were available in those cheap Valentine pack of cards that kids get. "The Others Don't Compare"....hee haw.

Cancersticks1
02-22-2009, 12:01 PM
Rather than repost it, I'm curious what your opinions are on this argument I've been having on the imdb boards.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/board/thread/131164990?p=1

bliss209
02-22-2009, 01:12 PM
Racist.

ouch

bliss209
02-22-2009, 01:13 PM
thank u ivankay...... i couldnt find a good pic of him

bliss209
02-22-2009, 01:44 PM
Rather than repost it, I'm curious what your opinions are on this argument I've been having on the imdb boards.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/board/thread/131164990?p=1

Also, how did Charlotte find a polar bear in the Tunisian desert? Did it make it's way down to the donkeywheel cavern and turn it??

That was funny, but all in all I think this is a very good point. I guess I didn't take the comment made by Hawking's very seriously. I was thinking in my mind the fact of the "location" of the island on this planet. I have always thought the bearings, measurements (longitude, latitude) were constantly changing. And this theory has been going around since day 1. The numbers are the different combination's of latitude and longitude. But what everyone on the island is going through right now is time travel.

I find interesting that when they are time traveling, they come in contact with "others" that have no idea of the time flashes happening to these people. Like when Locke meets up with the 1950's Richard, does Locke just disappear right in front of Richards eye's? or is there another inhabitant of Locke that stays in that time frame with Richard? I know these comments lead into the really old theory of the "time loop" sequence, where this entire scenario replays itself over and over and over again through time. Which is why it is so pertinent for everyone to do as they are supposed to do because it is all meant to be and no matter what you do you cant change it... bla bla bla. So, by Hawking's comment, I guess I need to erase that thought.

But your comment about the island "bumping" into itself was kinda interesting. if it is/was actually traveling through time, wouldn't it literally cross paths or "bump" (as you say) into another version of itself in a different time? I still see moving the island and this time traveling thingy going on right now as two different actions taking place.

i dunno......

Cancersticks1
02-22-2009, 02:18 PM
Also, how did Charlotte find a polar bear in the Tunisian desert? Did it make it's way down to the donkeywheel cavern and turn it??

That was funny, but all in all I think this is a very good point. I guess I didn't take the comment made by Hawking's very seriously. I was thinking in my mind the fact of the "location" of the island on this planet. I have always thought the bearings, measurements (longitude, latitude) were constantly changing. And this theory has been going around since day 1. The numbers are the different combination's of latitude and longitude. But what everyone on the island is going through right now is time travel.

I find interesting that when they are time traveling, they come in contact with "others" that have no idea of the time flashes happening to these people. Like when Locke meets up with the 1950's Richard, does Locke just disappear right in front of Richards eye's? or is there another inhabitant of Locke that stays in that time frame with Richard? I know these comments lead into the really old theory of the "time loop" sequence, where this entire scenario replays itself over and over and over again through time. Which is why it is so pertinent for everyone to do as they are supposed to do because it is all meant to be and no matter what you do you cant change it... bla bla bla. So, by Hawking's comment, I guess I need to erase that thought.

But your comment about the island "bumping" into itself was kinda interesting. if it is/was actually traveling through time, wouldn't it literally cross paths or "bump" (as you say) into another version of itself in a different time? I still see moving the island and this time traveling thingy going on right now as two different actions taking place.

i dunno......

Someone else mentioned the idea that it would bump into itself, I said just the opposite. Farraday said initially that either they are travelling in time or the island is, from our vantage point it seems clear that the island is, as it disappeared from the water. If the people on the island were just travelling, the island would remain fixed, (and even if the island is constantly moving, it's not flashing away like we saw at the end of season 4) since the island is travelling through time, that leaves two possibilities, 1. That when the island goes back in time there is another version of the island somewhere else or 2. There is only one island, period. Which is my opinion, it follows a very specific timeline and only visits each point in time once, unlike the people/objects on it who may encounter their past selves, the island is a self-contained constant.

marooko
02-23-2009, 08:40 AM
borrowed season one from a friend. the pilots were pretty freaking awesome. they didnt do this show justice with the advertising. i wasnt interested at all!!. glad i finally picked up on it.

locachica73
02-23-2009, 08:56 AM
Your right they don't promote it that much on abc. In fact I don't even remembering hearing about it until my sister mentioned I had to watch it. It gets plenty of word of mouth advertising by fans though.

chairmenmeow47
02-23-2009, 08:57 AM
i thought it was a reality show for a long time and refused to watch based on that.

marooko
02-23-2009, 09:01 AM
i thought it was a reality show for a long time and refused to watch based on that.

me too. not that it wasnt promoted, but it was done poorly. i totally thought it was some sort of new reality show. i had zero interest in it. then i heard some people talking about a "smoke monster" and thought, yup, this is fucking stupid. come to find out the people were talking about it stupidly. cause really, this shit is awesome.

Cancersticks1
02-24-2009, 03:30 PM
Tomorrow!

OnlyNonStranger
02-24-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm really excited about tomorrow's episode, just because it will be one more closer to us being able to find out more about the island. Not about how they got there and how Locke died, which I do want to see, I just like the fantasy aspect the most about the island.

Gribbz
02-24-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm not trying to hate or anything.... but this is just one show I didn't get.

That and Prison break.

fikus222
02-24-2009, 05:25 PM
I'm not trying to hate or anything.... but this is just one show I didn't get.

That and Prison break.

Start at the 1st episode and watch the first season back to back and then you will get it.

Don't even bother with Prison Break.

kitt kat
02-24-2009, 06:00 PM
then i heard some people talking about a "smoke monster" and thought, yup, this is fucking stupid. come to find out the people were talking about it stupidly. cause really, this shit is awesome.

for a long time, it was polar bears in paradise+smoke monster=stupid.

and then my boy made me watch it. it's good fun.

Sushov23
02-24-2009, 06:33 PM
Start at the 1st episode and watch the first season back to back and then you will get it.

Don't even bother with Prison Break.

hey the first season of Prison Break was great.

Gribbz
02-24-2009, 06:36 PM
hey the first season of Prison Break was great.

So they break out of prison..... then what happens? Never quite understood the concept of the show.

Sushov23
02-24-2009, 06:38 PM
So they break out of prison..... then what happens? Never quite understood the concept of the show.

that is when I stopped watching the show. No idea what happened after.

Gribbz
02-24-2009, 06:38 PM
lol

chairmenmeow47
02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
y'all can thread break now :P

Sushov23
02-24-2009, 06:55 PM
lol

I just didn't see any point in watching the show after they broke out of prison. That first season was great though.

mindcradle
02-24-2009, 09:26 PM
I'd missed the last 3 weeks and barely caught up tonight....I love http://tvshack.net. I'm all aboard the Ben went after Penny thought, it only makes sense since he was calling from the harbor pay phone. Tomorrow should be great!

chairmenmeow47
02-25-2009, 09:04 AM
seems like tonight is going to be pretty locke-centric. it seems like ages since we were able to say "this is a sun episode" or "this is a desmond episode", feels like old times :)

i hope we find out at least what's happening to the others during all these flashes.

vinylmartyr
02-25-2009, 10:42 AM
CZ6hIEqKR7A

Blv-dQTVCaI

Sorry if this has been posted already.

bug on your lip
02-25-2009, 11:10 AM
gawd u guys are stupid

i figured this show out a looooooonnnnggggg time ago









the answer is: 346,780

marooko
02-25-2009, 11:33 AM
for a long time, it was polar bears in paradise+smoke monster=stupid.

and then my boy made me watch it. it's good fun.

even now i dont like that its called the smoke monster, but i can get past it.

im on disc 2 of season one. pretty good stuff. the pilots were awesome.

sportsbunny
02-25-2009, 12:22 PM
I wasn't keen on this episode. Seemed a bit rushed, and didn't really have the gravitas I would expect from a return to the island episode.

Ben remains the weirdest, most sympathetic villain I have ever seen. He's the most interesting part of this series for me now.

I agree about Ben. I love his scenes. Jack says something like "what about all the other people on this plane - what happens to them?" and of course Ben responds with "who cares?"

And yes I think this episode was a bit of a let down after last week's amazing one with the arm, the leg.

How did Jack know his father's shoes would fit Locke's feet?

mindcradle
02-25-2009, 12:50 PM
Finished reading a couple different blogs previewing tonight's episode, and the consensus all around sounds like tonight will be one of the most important in the show's history...I concur. Just a little over 6 hours left!

Young blood
02-25-2009, 01:24 PM
When was Jacks Grandpa on the island?

mindcradle
02-25-2009, 01:38 PM
When was Jacks Grandpa on the island?

So far nothing has been mentioned about him on the island, but last week's episode was the first time he's been seen in the series (fairly sure).

chairmenmeow47
02-25-2009, 02:05 PM
it's going to be terribly lame if they try to work jack's grandpa onto the island somehow.

locachica73
02-25-2009, 02:06 PM
He is Ben's twin, the good one. lol

Young blood
02-25-2009, 02:16 PM
no, not lol.

locachica73
02-25-2009, 02:18 PM
yes i know. i am fully aware ben was born along the side of a highway in portland where his mother died after birth, unless of course her ghost gave birth on the island...hmmm

Young blood
02-25-2009, 02:22 PM
no.

Young blood
02-25-2009, 02:23 PM
ಠ_ಠ

locachica73
02-25-2009, 02:24 PM
That would only happen if the writers went on strike and got taken over by the writers of The Days of Our Lives. Luckily that won't happen again for a few more years.

*crosses fingers*

Young blood
02-25-2009, 02:50 PM
ಠ_ಠ

Boourns
02-25-2009, 07:03 PM
I die a little inside every time someone says "just trust me" on this, or any, show.

bartelby
02-25-2009, 07:12 PM
great episode

i'm looking forward to getting a clearer picture of Ben's angle in all this....and Whidmore's too, for that matter...

chairmenmeow47
02-25-2009, 08:08 PM
WTF BEN!!!!!!!!!!!

SERIOUSLY, i was complaining about how lame the scene was then BAM!

FCUK!

Young blood
02-25-2009, 08:10 PM
Season 5

+1,000,0000

Young blood
02-25-2009, 08:10 PM
The war is coming.

mindcradle
02-25-2009, 08:10 PM
I was complaining about how indifferent I was during the whole episode up until that part. At least there was ONE solid answer that came from that episode!

And it's for sure now, right? Locke has 4 toes...they showed his feet at least 4-5 times during the motel scene.

Young blood
02-25-2009, 08:12 PM
no.

guys got gnarly toes but hes not four toed dude.

chairmenmeow47
02-25-2009, 09:25 PM
http://ivy.aholic.us/gallery/d/767535-2/envy+ben.JPG

and i'm glad locke didn't ask walt to come back :)

bballarl
02-25-2009, 11:15 PM
Walt is the key to all of this.

fikus222
02-25-2009, 11:20 PM
I was thinking about Sayid's time-line...he's an Oceanic 6, gets married, she dies, he starts killing people for Ben, quits killing, begins building homes in the Caribbean...so what triggers the active manhunt against him (the stuff he was telling Hurley about)? Whidmore already knows where he is, so what happens to make him a high value target all of a sudden...is this an aspect of the 'coming' War?

This new plane crash is on the little Island with the polar bear cages, right? If so, Lapitas and Sun booked it back to the main Island.

I hope they don't waste too much time next week with the annoying love triangle (Kate, Sawyer and Jack).

Sexecutioner
02-25-2009, 11:37 PM
I hope they don't waste too much time next week with the annoying love triangle (Kate, Sawyer and Jack).

you know they will. or maybe make it a square with juliette. either way it will be lame.

tessalasset
02-26-2009, 12:04 AM
This new plane crash is on the little Island with the polar bear cages, right? If so, Lapitas and Sun booked it back to the main Island.

oh snap i didnt even think about that. they landed on the little island. awesome.



I hope they don't waste too much time next week with the annoying love triangle (Kate, Sawyer and Jack).
you know they will. even the preview said "and the moment you've all been waiting for...." regarding sawyer and kate's reunion. lame.

god damn, that motel scene almost had me in tears. i was absolutely shocked and couldn't speak for the rest of the episode. terry o'quinn did SUCH a good acting job. ben breaking him into tears, saving his life, convincing him he's worth something, and then turns right around and murders him in cold blood. and emotionlessly creates a suicide scene. fucking ridiculous. lost really is the best show on television.

bug on your lip
02-26-2009, 07:02 AM
seeing Locke in the black robe risen from the dead gave me chills

chairmenmeow47
02-26-2009, 08:36 AM
ok, WOW, those last few minutes were awesome. i'm so glad my DVR recorded all of it as well; i was worried since it seemed to run long last night.

i was really happy that locke did not try to convince walt to come back and it makes me feel better about walt's absence, which has been bugging me. i also loved how genuinely happy ben was when locke thanked him, lol, ben really takes those thank yous to heart.

this second crash is interesting too. does cesear (was that his name?) have an interest in the island or did he just end up there? seems odd he went straight for the paperwork about the island instead of trying to find food or get people rescued. i'm wondering if he is working for widmore and perhaps the marshall is working for ben. who knows, they could all be innocent i guess.

i don't remember anyone trying to press charges on sayid for the murders, i think hurley just tried to take responsibility for the murders to get away. i could be wrong though, i'd still like to know what sayid was being taken to guam for and who was taking him.

it was interesting to see more suspicious crash victims though and watch locke creep everyone out all over again. definitely did a good job of recreating the first crash. he looked like a jedi when he removed his hood, lol. very sad that helen was dead, i was kinda hoping john would get to see her again :(

the scene with widmore and locke in the hospital was AWESOME. at first i thought the guys who took him from the desert had placed the camera there to catch ben or someone like him since ben killed those guys in the desert when he arrived, but the widmore thing makes more sense. it's starting to seem like widmore is the "good" guy now and ben is the "bad" guy, but i still feel like we'll never really know until the end who we should be rooting for, if anyone.

so why did ben kill locke when he mentioned eloise? did ben just need to know where to go next? was he doing some sort of "greater good" by killing locke? because it seems strange that ben then takes locke back to the island that keeps saving locke. i mean, if you were going to kill locke because you were jealous, why would you try to bring him back to the island where he could possibly be reincarnated? that situation is odd and i want to know more about ben's motivations.

so hurley disappeared from the plane, along with jack and hurley. is it just me, or did it look like sayid was at the fire with the other crash victims? that would make sense since the marshall escorting him was there. it also sounds like lapidus must have taken the boat with sun to find jin and the other losties. so perhaps they take the boats to the camp where the losties then find the boat and get shot at?

i'd also still like to know:


WHERE/WHEN ARE ROSE & BERNARD?
WHERE/WHEN ARE THE OTHERS?
WHERE IS AARON?
WHAT CONVINCED HURLEY TO COME & BRING CHARLIES GUITAR?
WHY IS WALT NOT NECESSARY, OR IS HE?
WHY WAS SAYID BEING TAKEN TO GUAM?
WHY DID BEN OUST WIDMORE FROM THE ISLAND?
WHO SHOULD WE BE ROOTING FOR, WIDMORE OR BEN, NEITHER OR BOTH?


good stuff, can't wait for next week!!!

captncrzy
02-26-2009, 09:17 AM
so hurley disappeared from the plane, along with jack and hurley. is it just me, or did it look like sayid was at the fire with the other crash victims?


Nah, Locke would have seen him there at the fire.



it also sounds like lapidus must have taken the boat with sun to find jin and the other losties. so perhaps they take the boats to the camp where the losties then find the boat and get shot at?

This one is bugging me because she said that the pilot took off with some woman in a kayak. Why wouldn't have the island taken Sun as it took the others?



Here's another thing that's bugging me, and it's probably nothing but a mistake, but:

When Jack when to John's funeral, didn't Jack have a long, crazy beard? Because when Locke got in the accident and was in the hospital and Jack came to see him, he had a neat short beard. So, how much time passed between the time Locke went to see Jack and his death? It couldn't have been that much time-he was still in a wheelchair...

Cancersticks1
02-26-2009, 09:32 AM
As awesome as the scene with Ben & Locke was, I was kind of disappointed afterward, I was getting used to routing for Ben and giving him the benefit of the doubt, but that's kind of hard to do now. And as for why he would bring Lockes body back, I simply assumed he did because, well, he had to. He didn't kill him to stop his mission, he killed him because he wanted his mission. Thus he gleans what info he can from him, and goes to do it himself. he might not have even known he needed to take the body until Hawking tells him to. Another possibility though, could be that Ben obviously had been watching him strike out time and time again with his overly direct and none-to-persuasive method, and just said "fuck it, I got this." Knowing what was at stake if he failed.

Damnit. I just want Ben to be the hero.

psychic friend
02-26-2009, 09:32 AM
This show is so annoying.

Somewhat Damaged
02-26-2009, 09:47 AM
Here's another thing that's bugging me, and it's probably nothing but a mistake, but:

When Jack when to John's funeral, didn't Jack have a long, crazy beard? Because when Locke got in the accident and was in the hospital and Jack came to see him, he had a neat short beard. So, how much time passed between the time Locke went to see Jack and his death? It couldn't have been that much time-he was still in a wheelchair...

I was wondering the same thing. So obviously Locke returned before the events that took place in the season 4 finale, when Jack had let himself go and was flying all over the place and getting in trouble at work for drinking on the job. I suppose there could have been a substantial enough period of time between Locke's car accident and his decision to hang himself to give Jack a realistic amount of time to have a total meltdown.

BTW, Ben's turn at the end only makes me love him that much more. He's rivaling House right now for my favorite character on television.

chairmenmeow47
02-26-2009, 09:56 AM
As awesome as the scene with Ben & Locke was, I was kind of disappointed afterward, I was getting used to routing for Ben and giving him the benefit of the doubt, but that's kind of hard to do now. And as for why he would bring Lockes body back, I simply assumed he did because, well, he had to. He didn't kill him to stop his mission, he killed him because he wanted his mission. Thus he gleans what info he can from him, and goes to do it himself. he might not have even known he needed to take the body until Hawking tells him to. Another possibility though, could be that Ben obviously had been watching him strike out time and time again with his overly direct and none-to-persuasive method, and just said "fuck it, I got this." Knowing what was at stake if he failed.

Damnit. I just want Ben to be the hero.

i totally agree with this and i could see ben doing all of this simply to be doing SOMETHING for the island.

if sayid isn't at the fire, he would either have to be:


back with dharma losties
off with the pilot
somewhere random


it would be a bit odd that the marshall just let him leave with lapidus and sun (if that is in fact who lapidus took). he'd have to escape or something. and i don't think sayid is back with the dharma losties either, it would seem odd that three of them would be in the same area, but not sayid. so he's either most likely with lapidus or was at the fire. i can't really think of where else he'd be at this point.

and what about walt's dream? sounds like the crash victims are going to turn on locke.

mindcradle
02-26-2009, 10:31 AM
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Life_and_Death_of_Jeremy_Bentham/Theories

I've spent most my day at work going through this...there's just so many connections/contradictions that came from this episode.

I really, REALLY need to watch this one over now.

tessalasset
02-26-2009, 10:34 AM
dani you are not trying hard enough.

tessalasset
02-26-2009, 10:36 AM
i can't believe this whole show is turning in to who is going to be the good guy: widmore or linus.

but that could all change in the next episode. that's why i love lost. every time we start to think something concrete it either gets confirmed or blatantly shot down. i wonder when they were looking to cast Benjamin Linus if they knew what an integral role he was going to play for the rest of the series. they could have majorly fucked up in the casting of this character and instead they struck gold. i don't think i'm ever going to forget this actor for the rest of my life.

chairmenmeow47
02-26-2009, 10:51 AM
i wonder how much they knew about where this was going when ben was still henry gale or "not henry" as i liked to call him? i mean, it's pretty convenient that ben is the way he is, because it would make sense that ben wouldn't tell ANYONE, including the others, about locke because he'd be afraid of how they'd react. still though, it seems odd that this story of the time traveling zombie locke hasn't spread through the others in the past, or maybe it did and ben got rid of most of those people, like widmore. or maybe people knew, but were skeptical or knew this was all part of some plan. it just seems odd that more wasn't made of locke being "special" in season 2-3 with the others, but then again, it would make sense with ben being the secretive little bitch that he is. maybe only him and alpert knew.

i read some interesting theories on the 4815162342 forums regarding why ben killed locke. here's what i like so far:


ben just wanted to be the one doing all the work.
the island would not let locke kill himself a la michael & jack and so ben had to murder him.
ben just wanted to talk locke out of killing himself so locke would talk to sun, but when ben found out that jin was alive, he knew sun was a shoe-in and killed off locke. someone pointed out that this is when ben removes his jacket and starts playing with the noose.
for whatever reason, a murder had to take place to re-create the circumstances of oceanic 815. because of the parallels between locke & christian, perhaps christian was murdered by ben and so ben then had to murder locke.
ben knew locke was working with widmore, but did not know that the island had told john about ms. hawking. once he found out she knew about ms. hawking, he had to kill locke to prevent widmore from finding ms. hawking and ultimately finding the island. the murder was about preventing widmore from finding the island.


can't wait to re-watch tonight. so much to dig apart in that scene :)

captncrzy
02-26-2009, 12:05 PM
I don't know why, but I have a feeling that both Ben and Whidmore are the bad guys. I think they both want the same thing..whatever that thing is..and are trying to control it.

Young blood
02-26-2009, 12:18 PM
I absolutely love darkufo for the way they can interpret the episodes without questions....


no spoliers, but I dont want to give anything away either.














Things I Noticed - "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" by Vozzek69
Posted by DarkUFO at 18:36 (Comments: 35) Comment Pop-up
Labels: Recaps, The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, Vozzek69

No intro this week - too much going on. I voted the episode as Awesome though, just for the sheer amount of cool stuff they packed into it. Things I Noticed:

Where in the World is Ajira Flight 316?
Seeing that the plane had somehow landed on the island intact completely stunned me, as I'd really expected only the O6 (and maybe Frank) to have been 'beamed' onto the island. Instead, we see that everyone managed to arrive - but not all in the same timeline. As Cesar and Ilana rifle through the Hydra station, it's easy to assume that they're not in the same Dharma timeline as Jin, Sawyer, Jack, Kate, and Hurley. We also find out a whole lot of important things very quickly here.

First, the plane landed on the smaller island. Whether the mini-island moves when the big one does still remains to be seen, because there's still no reference to a past timeline yet (although I tend to think that it does). This disconnects the 316 survivors from the goings-on of our main characters on LOST island. At least for now.

We also find out quickly that John Locke is back. The fact that the other 316'ers found him standing in the water is a very blunt baptism inference. He's dressed to kill and kicking around in Christian's old shoes. He's smiling and feeling good, this time eating mangoes instead of oranges. Arriving back on the island has erased any last doubt that he's where he needs to be. John Locke is faithful, focused, and totally ready to fulfill his destiny. More on that later.

Next thing that happens: we're intentionally shown the canoes. Instantly we know the timeline is the present one (2006?) - the one Sawyer & company flashed into briefly during the great boat-race gunfight. We know that one canoe is missing, and Ilana tells Locke that the pilot "and some woman" took it. Time for some quick deduction.

We know the pilot to be Frank (nice!) and I'd figure the woman is most likely Sun. It doesn't make sense that the island would've "taken" some of the O6 and not others, but at the same time I think I know why. At this point Sun is almost in league with Charles Widmore. Not literally of course, but the island could easily see it that way. Just as Juliet has been marked as an outcast by the Others, Sun could've been marked in a similar fashion. The island could've excluded her in some weird way during the bright light beamdown.

The simple explanation for Ajira 316's 'crash' could've been structural: the resulting turbulence caused Frank to have to put the plane down immediately. Either he pulled off a really smooth beach landing or he brought her down on the infamous runway that the Others have been building since the dawn of time. If you want to go even further out on a limb, Sayid, Hurley, Kate and Jack all get zapped off the plane and Sun goes absolutely bananas. She kicks open the cockpit door and forces Lapidus to land on the island at gunpoint. Okay, okay, not even I believe that story. But the important part is they end up getting down there.

We know that at least two of these canoes end up on the big island at the 815'ers old camp. Although Lapidus might have a general idea where that is, Sun would be the only one who'd truly know. I'd guess she convinced Frank to paddle there with her to look for the people who got left behind, especially Jin. Some time after getting there, and finding the camp abandoned, I'd say some more canoes came (this would actually have to be the case in order for there to be two canoes). Shortly after that, we'd have the boat-race gunfight, in the middle of which comes a time zap. It's going to be interesting to see who's in the other canoe, and who it is that gets shot by Juliet.

Finally, we learn that Caesar's totally up to something. Where a normal crash survivor would be foraging food and water, Caesar is rifling through file cabinets. And instead of saying "Hey guys, look at this!", he's hiding sawed-off shotguns in his pack. To top it off, his whole look is far too ominous to be anything but bad. I want to say he's Widmore's guy, but that might be a little bit TOO obvious - especially for LOST. Maybe Illana is Widmore's guy? That would be a lot more subtle. Both of them seemed to question Locke very carefully, especially Caesar who twice asked Locke how he managed to return to the island. Seems that information would be something of great interest to Charles Widmore.


The Boy's Gettin' Big
Funny. No matter what season we're in, Walt's height is always a good running joke on LOST. To be honest, I'm not sure what the deal is with Abaddon. I'm still entertaining the theory that he's really a grown-up version of Walt. The way he walked away just as Walt approached (and returned when Walt left) certainly seemed to reinforce that whole idea. But I'm not entirely convinced, especially in light of his piss-poor death this episode. You can't go saying "He's been through enough" and then let the poor guy get brutally shot to death a couple of hours later. And with his mom dead, his dad blown to bits... it just doesn't seem right for Walt's entire story to end so badly. I'd like to think Walt went on to have something of a good life once the island let him go (not that I think it did just yet).

If Abaddon IS Walt, it would definitely explain the height. And somewhere along the line, Locke "owes him one". Abaddon's dead, and Locke hasn't paid up yet. So unless the debt gets settled somewhere in the past, maybe Walt/Abbadon will meet up again with John at a later time to collect. It's happened before. Walt has a funny way of popping up like that. I also think maybe Walt had a general idea of what happened to his father, but was testing Locke to see what he'd tell him. When Locke kindly spared Walt the gory details of his father being dead, he seemed to smile in knowing appreciation. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that.


I Finally Decided Who I Want to See Kate End Up With
I've come to the frustrating conclusion that predicting Kate's reaction to anything at this point is utterly impossible. Her conversation with Locke seemed to indicate total indifference to everyone left behind on the island, including Sawyer. The "have you ever been in love" line seemed instead to point directly at her feelings for Jack (or maybe Aaron?). At this point I don't think Jack OR Sawyer should bother with Kate - she's emotionally too high maintenance. Big drama. I'd rather see her end up with Claire. Not only is that a much hotter scenario, but it works out for both of them: they could raise Aaron together. So there's my final position - I'm a Clater. Join me.


The Jeremy Bentham World Tour - Canceled After Only 5 Appearances
Last week I talked about how each of the O6 needed to make some sort of demonstration of faith in order for the island to accept them back. This week, we see that Locke's leap of faith is the shortest of all - it involves only the last few inches of a hotel room table. Prior to this test, Richard had pretty much handed him the cheat-sheet; before he even left John knew he'd have to die once he got off-island. But along the long depressing road to that death, Locke was in serious danger of losing something even more important than his life: his own faith and belief. Lucky for him, Ben was there to give this back to him... right before strangling him to death.

Locke's flaw here is that he forgot the one golden rule of his own character: off the island he's nothing but a doofus. On the island, John Locke is an ass-kicking, boar-hunting, knife-throwing maniac. But off-island? Now he's back to the old John Locke - a weak, crippled, easily manipulated puppet being carted around by Abaddon much the same way Boone wheeled him around during his vision quest.

When he leaves Tunisia, Locke is strong in his convictions: he must convince the others to come back to the island. But one by one, they all turn away from him. Starting with Sayid and ending with Jack, each of these meetings slowly chip away at the confidence Locke has in his own mission, and in himself. Jack's a doctor, Kate's a mom, Sun has a baby. Sayid joined Habitat for Humanity, where there are no red shirts - only yellow. It seems that everyone's gone on without him. Even worse, they've gone on without the island. Suddenly all that important "We're all here for a reason" stuff doesn't look so very important anymore. In a world full of real people doing real things, Locke's 'mission' is suddenly full of holes and it's leaking fast. And as his friends scoff at Locke's master plan, which isn't even a plan at all, Sayid and Kate both pointedly remind him of something: There are other things in the world - things like love - that might just be a little more important. Which leads John's thoughts to Helen.


Aww, Peg. You're down here? Damn. I was dreaming you ran off with the dwarf down at the bookstore, and I was living in sin with a Playboy centerfold and her eight friends who could speak but chose not to.
Personally, I'm not sure Helen's dead. When Locke first asks Abaddon about her, he blows it off. When he claims he can't find her, John calls him on it. By the time Abaddon finally takes John to the graveyard, we're led to believe this hesitation was to protect John's already fragile feelings. In truth, I'm thinking it gave Widmore's crew time enough to set up the phony baloney Peg Bundy headstone.

After being snubbed by every single one of his island pals, hooking back up with Helen might've been the straw that broke Locke's missions' back. John might've been content to flip the island off once and for all... maybe try to have a life all his own. Seeing her grave however, sent Locke even further down the spiral. This appears to be what Widmore wanted. John's world tour seemed less of an actual rally for return to the island, and more of a long slow drive toward suicide. I'll bet Widmore made Abaddon stop at the hardware store too, for some cable.


It was Benjamin Linus... In the Hotel Room... with the Extension Cord
So by the end of the episode, John Locke is now Jeremy Bentham. Since leaving the island he's been changed physically, he's been changed emotionally, and even his very name has changed. Important to note here that all of this, with the exception of the crippled part, is courtesy of Mr. Charles Widmore and Driving Ms. Daisy.

At the point Locke climbs onto that table to kill himself, he's doing it purely for suicidal reasons. He's convinced that he's failed, and I'm pretty sure not one single part of him thinks he's doing it for the 'good of the island'. Screw Richard, screw Widmore, screw Jacob and ghost-Christian Shepard... Locke legitimately wants to die, island be damned. And that's when Ben knocks on the door.

Ben's not here to prevent John Locke's death. Ben knows Locke needs to die to go back to the island, but he also knows that dying faithless would be catastrophic. Ben's here to repair the damage caused by Jack, Sayid, Kate and Hurley. Ben's here to re-infuse Locke with the confidence and purpose he had when John turned the donkey wheel just few short days ago. He tells Locke that he's not a failure. He pleads with Locke not to kill himself. He talks Jeremy Bentham down off the ledge, gives him a hug, lets him know that all isn't lost. "Hey man, it's okay. You're not a loser. Jack booked a ticket. If you get Jack, you can get the rest of them. Good job, man. High five."

Jeremy Bentham dies here, and the old John Locke is back. He even thanks Ben. This is the guy who kidnapped people, the guy who told string after string of filthy lies. This is the man who gutshot Locke and left him in a pit full of rotting corpses. But hey, all is forgiven in lieu of the island. Suddenly John believes again - his faith is restored - his life is filled with purpose and direction once more. NOW he's ready to go back to the island. NOW Locke has fulfilled his leap of faith. And now, as Ben knows all too well, Locke needs to perish in order to return to the island via the Christian-corpse-proxy.

In short, Locke needed to die - but not by his own hand. There are rules that need to be followed, and Ben is fully versed in them. I hate to keep quoting Ms. Klugh, but as she once said to Michael: "It doesn't work that way". Benjamin Linus knows the way it works. So does Charles Widmore, which may be why he didn't want Locke back on the island despite all the things he said about helping him get there. Ben knew that if Locke had died faithless, or by suicide, he might not have been resurrected. That's the single most important part of his visit to the hotel room.

Don't fall into the trap - don't think for one minute that the mention of Ms. Hawkings name suddenly 'changed Ben's mind' or gave him stranglerrific ideas. Ben didn't just happen to have a spray-bottle of bleach and some green latex gloves on him, nor did he stop at the 24-hr Quickmart to pick them up afterward. You can bet your ass that everything he does is coldly calculated, and Ben already had that stuff when he showed up. He knew he'd have to kill Locke just as certainly as he knew he had to make it look like a suicide. Do you think Ben wiped his fingerprints from the extension cord and bleached the room to avoid being caught by the cops? No, he needed the newspapers to reflect that Jeremy Bentham had taken his own life. This got Jack to the funeral, but more importantly it served to let Charles Widmore think he'd succeeded in driving Locke to suicide. Sneaky shit? Yup. That's Benjamin Linus.

In fact, the only thing Ben didn't count on was the survival of Jin. And he seized that opportunity quickly enough, knowing he could use Jin's wedding ring to easily lure Sun back to the island. With Locke in a coffin, Jack already cracking, and Jin's ring in his pocket, Ben knew the chances of an O6 return to the island were suddenly looking very much up. I'll also say Ben might not have expected to hear the name Eloise Hawking from John's lips, but this was something Daniel changed afterward and Ben had no way of knowing about it yet.

Finally, I also think Ben was telling the truth when he told Locke that Widmore was using him. His words here were frantic and strained, his whole demeanor was a lot different than the rest of his conversation with John. Of course, Ben needs to stop telling people that Widmore is 'extremely dangerous' and start telling them WHY he is. That might kinda, like, help him gain some credibility or something. But doing that would give us the same information by default, and the writers probably don't want to spring that one on us just yet. I still keep putting myself in Ben's shoes though, imagining how frustrating it must be to have to do all this seemingly evil shit in order to 'get people where they need to be', all for the good of a cause we have yet to finally see. Ben is the ultimate Abaddon.


Christian = Locke
I'm not saying that Christian and Locke are the same person here, but for the purposes of flight 316 we see that they are. And this had me wondering if maybe Christian didn't die of a heart attack at all, but instead was murdered... by strangulation. This would parallel Locke's own death as well as the death of his father, Cooper. As Christian Shephard becomes more of a tangible character and less of a fleeting ghost or vision, maybe we'll get another glimpse into his backstory.

Also, when you boil away everything else, it's actually Christian who gets the O6 back to the island. If not for the "Say hello to my son" comment, Jack might not have ever been convinced to start seeking a way back. Christan's comment was the catalyst, Locke was the messenger. They both played parts I guess, but the important part of getting them back was making them believe. Jack didn't believe squat until Locke's impossibly accurate mention of his father's name stirred up those old creepy doubts again.


The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend
The most important part of this episode, hands down, was Locke's conversation with Charles Widmore. The dialogue was awesome, and the whole scene was great. I hung on Widmore's every word, kind of like when we used to hang on Ben's every word way back in the old days when the Others were so mysterious to us. The overwhelming impression Widmore gave us is the same one he gave Locke: that he was telling nothing but the overwhelming truth. And I believe he was too, for the most part.

For so long now, it's been established that Charles Widmore and Benjamin Linus are playing opposite sides of a giant game. Chess, backgammon, world domination - doesn't really matter. One's black, one's white, one's dark, one's light. Good vs. Evil, all that stuff. They rule the board, they make the moves, and the main characters are the gamepieces. Lately though, I'm not so sure how entirely true that is.

I think Widmore and Linus have the same goal, but different ideas of how to go about achieving that goal. I do think maybe they're both on the same side in the "war" that Widmore ominously predicted is coming. Hawking too. All three of them seem hellbent on avoiding something that's going to have cataclysmic results for everyone. None of them seems to want this to happen. Maybe the war isn't between Widmore and Ben at all, but between them and a third party we don't even know about yet.

However, I do think they're on opposite sides in many other respects. For one, it's obvious that Widmore's drooling to get back to the island. He's also completely astonished that Locke would ever voluntarily leave. He talked fondly of ruling the Others "peacefully" for decades, and he's crazed that Linus apparently took leadership from him. This has me wondering about his motives, which seem to lean on the selfish side. Widmore wants to rule again, whereas I think Ben's kind of through with that whole role. At some level they both have the island's interests at heart, but one of them has a much more pure, unsullied idea as to how to best protect it. I get the impression that Widmore's island-crazed vision is beclouded by him having been off it more than 30 years. Ben's is sharper and more focused, having seen the island through a lot more recent craziness than Widmore. I can't fully explain why I feel this way, but I also see Ben is now "over" the island. He does want to help win the war, but he sees Widmore as dangerous and crazy. Widmore's elevator isn't going to the top floor anymore, and Ben knows it.

The best way I can put it: Ben has paid his dues. He'd like to move on. For years and years he's sacrificed having a life of his own by living out the will of the island. If anyone in the whole show has had a predetermined destiny, it's been him. And while Ben's totally sick of it, Charles Widmore craves having it again. He hates Linus for having ousted him, but at the time Ben didn't even know what he was getting into. If Ben could go back in time (pun intended) he probably never would've taken the job. And yet Widmore knows nothing of this, he only knows his hatred for what Ben 'did' to him.

I'd bet that by the end of the show, Widmore gets exactly what he wants. And when he does, it's not going to look as good as it did in the brochure.

Ravingmad
02-26-2009, 12:32 PM
so why did ben kill locke when he mentioned eloise? did ben just need to know where to go next? was he doing some sort of "greater good" by killing locke? because it seems strange that ben then takes locke back to the island that keeps saving locke. i mean, if you were going to kill locke because you were jealous, why would you try to bring him back to the island where he could possibly be reincarnated? that situation is odd and i want to know more about ben's motivations.

I think Ben still wants to be leader of the Others, and obviously can't do it if Locke is around. Remember, this is the second time he's tried to kill Locke for that reason. He probably figured if Locke is dead, and he can get back to the island, leadership reverts to him somewhat by default. Once he knew that Jin was alive (so he could get some leverage on Sun) and who he had to contact to figure out how to get back to the island, he was free to kill off Locke.


WHERE/WHEN ARE ROSE & BERNARD?

Off in the jungle having hot, hot, Rose and Bernard sex. And no one wants to see that. Except Vincent, who has also been off-camera for the past few episodes and is likely off watching them.

WHERE/WHEN ARE THE OTHERS?

In which timeline? In the present, they are presumably still in the temple with Richard. In the 1970's timeline that Jin/Sawyer/Daniel/Kate/Juliet are in, they are probably still out in the jungle fighting the Dharma Initiative.


WHERE IS AARON?
WHAT CONVINCED HURLEY TO COME & BRING CHARLIES GUITAR?
WHY WAS SAYID BEING TAKEN TO GUAM?

I'm guessing we're going to get an episode from the perspective of the other half of the Oceanic Six return -- should show what happened with Kate and Aaron, with Sayid, and with Hurley to get them on the plane. And with Ben (presumably) trying to kill off Penny.

tessalasset
02-26-2009, 01:44 PM
god i cant wait til im not at work and i can take the time to read that dark ufo article.

fikus222
02-26-2009, 03:49 PM
Both Ben and Whidmore are bad. They are hellbent on manifesting their own versions of what they feel the Island needs/wants/desires and ultimately their own hubris has caused a lot of harm and if Greek tragedies have taught us anything its that too much hubris leads to tragedy.

Since the primary players are not in line with the Island, the Island brought the Losties in to stir things up and get things back on track.

The new Losties are probably sequestered on the small Island so that they can go through the process of acclimation and alignment. Also to thin the herd as well.

Sun will also be going through a realignment process, which is why she is not with the other 6. She is solely focused on Jin, possibly to the detriment of the Island. Therefore, she will be required to fulfill some objective of the Island and then be rewarded with a reunion with Jin.

In killing Locke, Ben was removing a rival, not helping the Island. The theory that Locke would be unable to kill himself on his own does not hold water for me. Ben was acting out of jealousy and spite, probably failing another one of the Island's tests.

Also, I think that Caesar might end up being on the right side...

atom heart
02-26-2009, 07:25 PM
god damn, that motel scene almost had me in tears. i was absolutely shocked and couldn't speak for the rest of the episode. terry o'quinn did SUCH a good acting job. ben breaking him into tears, saving his life, convincing him he's worth something, and then turns right around and murders him in cold blood. and emotionlessly creates a suicide scene. fucking ridiculous. lost really is the best show on television.

Ben might have killed him, but I don't think that Ben didn't care. Ben sounded pretty wrecked when he said he would miss Locke. Then again, he will do anything, more or less, to get what he wants, and if that means killing someone he respects then so be it.

What I don't get is at what point Ben decided that Locke should exist in some capacity (he tried killing him before). Obviously he killed Locke for a very good reason (for Ben).

also: WAY TOO MUCH BROKEN LEG. Holy crap that was hard to watch.
I like the idea that Ben and Widmore are on the same side. I want to know more of Dharma's role in this, who funded it, etc, and what their goals were (The Dharma experiments always seemed cruel). If there is any third party in this i think it comes from that side.
Who cares if Ben is good or bad? What does good or bad mean in this. We all know that Ben's means are morally bankrupt, and we still have no clear idea of what his motives are.

marooko
02-26-2009, 09:10 PM
john and the lifeguard just found some steel. sounds hollow. i dont wanna stop watching. FUCK TV AND THIS DAMN SHOW!!!! I FUCKING LOVE IT!!!!!!!

tessalasset
02-27-2009, 12:34 AM
Ben might have killed him, but I don't think that Ben didn't care. Ben sounded pretty wrecked when he said he would miss Locke. Then again, he will do anything, more or less, to get what he wants, and if that means killing someone he respects then so be it.

after reading that big long dark ufo review on the page before this, i changed my mind. the way he explained ben's murder made WAY more sense and helped me to accept it more.

shakermaker113
02-27-2009, 09:53 AM
hmm. so many questions.

why do we think that sun and sayid (and locke, for that matter) did not disappear when jack, hurley and kate did? when the dude from the crash mentioned people disappearing, did he mention a number? I forget.


WHAT CONVINCED HURLEY TO COME & BRING CHARLIES GUITAR?

when did we see this happen? I don't remember that at all.

and who the fuck is the sixth person in the oceanic six?

Cancersticks1
02-27-2009, 09:58 AM
hmm. so many questions.

why do we think that sun and sayid (and locke, for that matter) did not disappear when jack, hurley and kate did? when the dude from the crash mentioned people disappearing, did he mention a number? I forget.



when did we see this happen? I don't remember that at all.

and who the fuck is the sixth person in the oceanic six?

When Hurley gets on the plane in 316 he brings a guitar case. And Aaron was the sixth.

Also, Lost solved:
http://news.aol.com/article/earliest-human-footprints-found-in/360312

tessalasset
02-27-2009, 09:59 AM
hurley was magically on the same plane as them even though mrs. hawking didn't tell him to be there. he was carrying a guitar case that, while not the exact same one as charlie's since that is still on the island, was very similar to charlie's. why?


the oceanic six are:
jack
kate
hurley
sayid
sun
aaron


shaker what kind of a question is that?

tessalasset
02-27-2009, 10:00 AM
you should be honored by my lateness.

chairmenmeow47
02-27-2009, 10:02 AM
we don't know when or where sayid and sun are. we can assume sun left with the pilot and i still need to watch again to see if i really did see sayid by the fire or if maybe they said TWO people left with the pilot, not just a woman, but we don't know at this point. we are just making assumptions based on the clues given, such as a women suddenly sneaking off with the pilot and the fact that sayid and sun were not with hurley, jack and kate. also, the fact that ben was not removed and that sun and sayid were not in the same vicinity as hurley, jack and kate tells us that whatever sucked them out of the plane did not have to suck them all to the same place.

i feel honoured, tessa :)

marooko
02-27-2009, 10:07 AM
also, i called the rat when i first saw him. didnt even know.

chairmenmeow47
02-27-2009, 10:27 AM
ethan?

marooko
02-27-2009, 10:37 AM
yup. like the first or second time i saw him....i told my lady..."i dont like him. something is up with this guy."

i wanna keep watching the new ones, but i hate knowing stuff im not supposed to know. im so confused as to what i wanna do.

BeHereNOW
02-27-2009, 10:43 AM
this darkufo post is master +++++





I Finally Decided Who I Want to See Kate End Up With

I'd rather see her end up with Claire. Not only is that a much hotter scenario, but it works out for both of them: they could raise Aaron together. So there's my final position - I'm a Clater. Join me.



lol
i'm in for this

Courtney
02-27-2009, 12:10 PM
Lost is filming at one of my company's locations today. I'm trying to resist coming up with every excuse in the book to walk over to that building and watch the entire filming of what looks to be an Oxford graduation scene.

tessalasset
02-27-2009, 12:18 PM
oooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!

tessalasset
02-27-2009, 12:21 PM
i wanna keep watching the new ones, but i hate knowing stuff im not supposed to know. im so confused as to what i wanna do.

dude. don't do it. it makes the surprises SOOOOO much better if you don't know already. altho you've fucked yourself over enough as it is. i remember when lost first came out, i didn't have the time or the desire to watch it, but i kept hearing about how great it was, and i knew at some point i was going to want to watch it, so i intentionally didn't read or watch anything about it. if a cast member was on a late night show, i'd change the channel. i started watching lost halfway through season 2 and the ONLY thing i knew ahead of time was "what's in the hatch!?" cause i saw that headline on a magazine. so i knew there was a hatch. but that's it. i know there's WAAAYYYY more stuff you have to hide from now that we're in the 5th season, but if you can manage, it makes the payoff that much better.


and sorry if i ruined the hatch surprise for you.

chairmenmeow47
02-27-2009, 12:21 PM
Lost is filming at one of my company's locations today. I'm trying to resist coming up with every excuse in the book to walk over to that building and watch the entire filming of what looks to be an Oxford graduation scene.

YOU CANNOT RESIST, DO AS THE ISLAND COMMANDS!!!!!!!!!

locachica73
02-27-2009, 12:23 PM
dude. don't do it. it makes the surprises SOOOOO much better if you don't know already. altho you've fucked yourself over enough as it is. i remember when lost first came out, i didn't have the time or the desire to watch it, but i kept hearing about how great it was, and i knew at some point i was going to want to watch it, so i intentionally didn't read or watch anything about it. if a cast member was on a late night show, i'd change the channel. i started watching lost halfway through season 2 and the ONLY thing i knew ahead of time was "what's in the hatch!?" cause i saw that headline on a magazine. so i knew there was a hatch. but that's it. i know there's WAAAYYYY more stuff you have to hide from now that we're in the 5th season, but if you can manage, it makes the payoff that much better.


and sorry if i ruined the hatch surprise for you.

Agreed, you don't get any of those "WHAT THE FUCK" moments at the end of the show if you know too much in advance.

Courtney
02-27-2009, 12:39 PM
Back from trip #2. Saw Daniel Faraday in robes and a cute female character with curly blonde hair that I think was a young, healthy Theresa Spencer (Daniel's girlfriend/experiment subject who later goes into a coma).

It's raining a bit now, which it seems would be perfect for Oxford, but they have one of those big overhead light tarp things up to make it look like it's sunny.

marooko
02-27-2009, 01:09 PM
dude. don't do it. it makes the surprises SOOOOO much better if you don't know already. altho you've fucked yourself over enough as it is. i remember when lost first came out, i didn't have the time or the desire to watch it, but i kept hearing about how great it was, and i knew at some point i was going to want to watch it, so i intentionally didn't read or watch anything about it. if a cast member was on a late night show, i'd change the channel. i started watching lost halfway through season 2 and the ONLY thing i knew ahead of time was "what's in the hatch!?" cause i saw that headline on a magazine. so i knew there was a hatch. but that's it. i know there's WAAAYYYY more stuff you have to hide from now that we're in the 5th season, but if you can manage, it makes the payoff that much better.


and sorry if i ruined the hatch surprise for you.

no, you didnt ruin it, i saw them find it.

its so tough to not watch the new ones. i see things now and think: "oooohhh, ok. i see why this happened. WIAT!!! you're not supposed to know that. stop thinking about it." doesnt always work. i need to be strong. we're on disc 3. if they lady is up for it, im determined to finish season 1 this weekend. TV is the devil.

its so hard not to watch, im kinda stressed actually.

Odin 8
02-27-2009, 04:27 PM
Ok, random question...how did Locke know to get in contact with Hawking?

chairmenmeow47
02-27-2009, 04:45 PM
Ok, random question...how did Locke know to get in contact with Hawking?

christian shepard told him to. and i almost tried to log in as christian instead of chairmen to answer this, lol.

i watched again and was wrong about seeing sayid by the fire; you can't see the face of the guy in the background or anything.

but, the marshall says the pilot and some lady. so i don't think sayid is with them. so where is he? did he flash with hurley/jack/kate in a different location? is he with the crash site victims? somewhere else? he's got a lot to repent for on the island, maybe he has his own path?

Courtney
02-27-2009, 06:23 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3567/3314632259_0b9c72f707.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/3314633525_d1868f2198.jpg

fikus222
02-27-2009, 06:25 PM
^ Sweet !!!

shakermaker113
02-27-2009, 06:31 PM
did you ever wonder about all the uses of the number 23 in lost?: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/23

bballarl
02-27-2009, 06:41 PM
I'm sure it is because of Michael Jordan.

chairmenmeow47
02-28-2009, 11:25 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3567/3314632259_0b9c72f707.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/3314633525_d1868f2198.jpg

i'm buying you a beverage of your choice at coachella for this. sweet. way to submit to the island :)

Barbara, the ninja
02-28-2009, 11:28 AM
Hehe, Courtney, I'm glad to have you as a spy :D

sportsbunny
03-02-2009, 02:13 AM
Finally got to see last week's episode - great!!! Question though - did they take off Locke's cast before he was put in the casket? Jack was able to put his father's shoes on Locke in his casket and couldn't have done that if the cast was still on. Why isn't his leg broken when he's back on the island in his funeral suit? Did the island heal him?

Would love some input on this...

Monklish
03-02-2009, 06:56 AM
Finally got to see last week's episode - great!!! Question though - did they take off Locke's cast before he was put in the casket? Jack was able to put his father's shoes on Locke in his casket and couldn't have done that if the cast was still on. Why isn't his leg broken when he's back on the island in his funeral suit? Did the island heal him?

Would love some input on this...

Considering that it brought him back to life, I'd say a broken leg setting quickly is a relatively simple leap of faith.

Also, I don't think they ever bother leaving a cast on a corpse. Y'know.

real talk
03-02-2009, 12:39 PM
Both Ben and Whidmore are bad.

Yes. You cannot ever say that Whidmore is a good guy after what he did to Desmond. BROTHA!

locachica73
03-02-2009, 12:46 PM
or his own daughter for that matter.

I finally watched the episode on Saturday, good show. I almost thought it was Sayid by the campfire myself, just by the way he held himself if that makes any sense. I couldn't see him other then a brief shadow but for some reason I just got the feeling it was Sayid.

So what made Ben change his mind about keeping Locke alive? My thought is after hearing that Jin was still alive and the name of the person who could help them get back to the island he realized he could appear to be the hero and save everyone to get his island back. But the fact that he is one of the injured people at the end just proves that the island is done with him.

marooko
03-02-2009, 01:40 PM
things came up, i wasnt able to finish season one. bu ti was able to enjoy a few episodes. crazy show, just plain crazy.

tessalasset
03-02-2009, 02:14 PM
locachica, read the darkufo review a few pages back. it explained it to me in a way that makes sense.




and welcome to page 100, Lost thread. awesome.

locachica73
03-02-2009, 02:33 PM
I need to go back and read that, I started to but was at work, I planned on it this weekend but the beers got in the way. :)

LooseAtTheZoo
03-02-2009, 04:50 PM
Where can I watch this past weeks episode? If someone can pm me the link I would greatly appreciate it.

Down Rodeo
03-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Seriously?

http://www.abc.com

tessalasset
03-02-2009, 05:24 PM
dude PM HIM. that's private shit!

Somewhat Damaged
03-04-2009, 02:55 PM
I realize this is old news but I was flipping through the September 19, 2008 issue of Entertainment Weekly at work today and saw the following article. I don't know if it was discussed in here all those many months ago but considering people's reaction to the presence of one of the actors mentioned in it, I'm guessing that it wasn't.

"Exec producers Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof tell EW they've just completed casting of two major new characters joining their saga next year. Last week, Michael Ausiello reported the addition of New Amsterdam alum Zuleikha Robinson. This week, we'd like to introduce you to Said Taghmaoui, a French thesp most recently seen in the Don Cheadle thriller Traitor. He'll play Caesar, a mystery man who...um...well, that's all we got. But the producers say the actor's skill set fits the part. "He has an innate intelligence, intensity, and danger we really responded to," says Lindelof, who declined to specify whether Caesar is good or bad. But know this: Robinson's Ilana is associated with Caesar, and Cuse likens her to Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight. "There was something very unsettling about the way the Joker kept telling different stories about his background--something very similar to what we had planned for Ilana," he says. Look for a delayed introduction for the duo, with Caesar in particular playing "an important part of the setup for the final act of the show in season 6," according to Cuse. And FYI: Zuleikha rhymes with You-Like-A, while Said sounds just like Lost's own Sayid. In fact, Taghmaoui also played--get this--the Iraqi soldier who tortured Mark Wahlberg in Three Kings. Should theorists be looking for hidden meaning in this seemingly coincidental linkage? "No," says Lindelof. "Just...no.""

mindcradle
03-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Good stuff. Thanks for the info!

Blinken
03-04-2009, 04:09 PM
Thanks i knew he looked very familar.

chairmenmeow47
03-04-2009, 05:04 PM
nice find, rick!

and hooray for 100 pages!!! it'll be a few more after tonight!!! someone told me there's no episode on the 18th, is that true? in my search, i read through titles of some of the next episodes and i really like "some like it hoth", cute :)

Somewhat Damaged
03-04-2009, 06:18 PM
You're welcome. Good thing I never received that issue back in September or else I wouldn't have thought to post the article now.

Potential worst luck in the world: I changed the TV to ABC half an hour ago to re-watch last week's episode before the new one starts and there's a message on the screen, and only on this channel: "No need to call us. We are aware this channel is fucked. Sorry for the interruption." Those motherfuckers better have this shit fixed in the next 41 minutes or Rick's gonna go fucking mental.

mindcradle
03-04-2009, 07:17 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm

locachica73
03-04-2009, 07:22 PM
Why is wheel of fortune on my Lost channel frozen? What the fucking fuck is this?

bartelby
03-04-2009, 07:25 PM
i looooovvvvve Lost

what a crazy epidsode....the next show's preview just made things more interesting too....its gonna be a long couple of weeks..

Somewhat Damaged
03-04-2009, 07:41 PM
Missed the first 24 minutes of tonight's episode but it's finally on at least. Man, does Sawyer look fucking ghey with his hair cut that new way.

mindcradle
03-04-2009, 08:03 PM
Loved the episode once I got a hold of it, but 2 weeks off.....FUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!

So now we're back to square one in this show....just great...

chairmenmeow47
03-04-2009, 08:07 PM
WE WERE ROBBED, MY DVR DID NOT RECORD LOST CORRECTLY, THE FUCKER FUCKER PUNKS WHO ROBBED US UNPLUGGED THE OTHER DVR IN THE LIVING ROOM WHILE STEALING ALL THE VIDEO GAME CONSOLES AND MY LAPTOP WAS STOLEN. NO LOST FOR IVY. BITCHES WILL HAVE THEIR NECKS SNAPPED WITH MY LEGS SAYID STYLE UPON SIGHT. THE LAPTOP WAS NOTHING, YOU DO NOT FUCK WITH MY LOST VIEWING PLEASURE.

and i averted my eyes from the thread, will re-post when i actually get to watch. fuck theiving bitches, the island will have it's vengance.

Somewhat Damaged
03-04-2009, 09:15 PM
If you see this, Ivy, ABC said they're reairing the episode after Jimmy Kimmel tonight.

corbo
03-04-2009, 09:21 PM
EDIT: THIS WEEKS EPISODE WASNT SO BAD.

corbo
03-04-2009, 09:23 PM
WE WERE ROBBED, MY DVR DID NOT RECORD LOST CORRECTLY, THE FUCKER FUCKER PUNKS WHO ROBBED US UNPLUGGED THE OTHER DVR IN THE LIVING ROOM WHILE STEALING ALL THE VIDEO GAME CONSOLES AND MY LAPTOP WAS STOLEN. NO LOST FOR IVY. BITCHES WILL HAVE THEIR NECKS SNAPPED WITH MY LEGS SAYID STYLE UPON SIGHT. THE LAPTOP WAS NOTHING, YOU DO NOT FUCK WITH MY LOST VIEWING PLEASURE.

and i averted my eyes from the thread, will re-post when i actually get to watch. fuck theiving bitches, the island will have it's vengance.

damn that sucks chairmenmeow

Young blood
03-04-2009, 09:30 PM
Missed the first 24 minutes of tonight's episode but it's finally on at least. Man, does Sawyer look fucking ghey with his hair cut that new way.
Ummm you didn't like his hair because it was "ghey"?...........

fikus222
03-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Tonight was pretty cool.

Sucks that we are forced to take a week off due to the premier of some new sh!tty ass shows.

sportsbunny
03-04-2009, 10:35 PM
OMG I don't have the words to explain how much I love this show!! The giant statue, Daniel seeing young Charlotte, the time travel wrapped up, and Richard's expression when Sawyer started dropping the history of the island - priceless!

invisiblerobots
03-05-2009, 12:25 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/Sa907ZH4thI/AAAAAAAAPaA/HCNwMaHe6Sg/s1600/508%2Bhorus.jpg

http://i452.photobucket.com/albums/qq250/ItAintAllLuck/draft_lens2104102module10775404phot.jpg

kitt kat
03-05-2009, 01:25 AM
THREE YEARS LATER

THREE YEARS EARLIER

THREE YEARS LATER

THREE YEARS----
FUCCCCCCKKKKK STOP IT!!!!

ivankay
03-05-2009, 01:34 AM
THREE YEARS LATER

THREE YEARS EARLIER

THREE YEARS LATER

THREE YEARS----
FUCCCCCCKKKKK STOP IT!!!!

No way. No writers do it better. Great episode.

tessalasset
03-05-2009, 01:34 AM
Daniel seeing young Catherine
*Charlotte



The statue made me gasp. I really wish they had stayed in that time period longer. Something is seriously fucked with Horace. He is one creepy dude. And fuck Kate for coming back. Sawyer and Juliet were totally happy together. I bet they were even gonna try for a baby after she realized babies survived back then.

I loved how Sawyer called Alpert eyeliner dude. That whole scene was so badass.

SF_Excuse
03-05-2009, 01:37 AM
I wonder if Sawyer will eat his words and do the dirty with Kate...again... or maybe he could con his way into a threesome with Kate AND Juliet... in the cage.... with Jack jerking off to the live feed in his own private Dharma station.

SF_Excuse
03-05-2009, 01:40 AM
*Charlotte



The statue made me gasp. I really wish they had stayed in that time period longer.

True... I remember seeing the four toed foot in a previous episode... last season I think... and wondering where they were going with that.

bartelby
03-05-2009, 05:20 AM
oh, Ivy - that is TERRIBLE news...i really feel for the guys who did it though, they're fucked