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faxman75
10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/religious-outcry-sparks-littlebigrecall/1257227

Religious outcry sparks LittleBigRecall
New PlayStation game soundtrack unpopular with some Islamic groups

By Mike Smith

LittleBigPlanet, one of this year's most-anticipated PlayStation 3 releases, won't be arriving in stores next week as expected.

The "social platforming" game is already gathering rave reviews, but it hasn't proven popular with one Muslim group, which issued a complaint to the game's publisher Sony concerning one background music track. Performed by award-winning Malian musician Toumani Diabate, the song quotes two verses from the Qur'an. Many Muslims consider the mixing of music and scripture to be deeply offensive.

Although the game is already pressed, packaged, and reportedly sitting in the back rooms of many worldwide retailers awaiting its original Oct. 21 debut, gamers eager to get hold of it will have to wait at least another week while the offending content is expunged. Updated versions of the game are expected to be shipped to stores during the week of October 27.

LITTLEBIGPICTURES

"Sorry for the delay, and rest assured, we are doing everything we can to get LittleBigPlanet to you as soon as possible," commented Patrick Seybold, Sony's US director of Corporate Communications, in a statement on the company's PlayStation blog.

fiyahhh!
10-19-2008, 09:00 PM
Fuck that. Just put a warning sticker on it. They do that for epilleptics when the game has flashing lights. It could just say "Muslims, this game has content which may result in Jihad. Probably best to avoid playing it."

thedevious
10-19-2008, 10:34 PM
I would say that this is just another case of evolved society's consistent and ridiculous kowtowing to religion, but there is decent proof that the whole thing was orchestrated by Microsoft.

I will withhold my opinion for now.

dear_amanda
10-19-2008, 10:36 PM
"Muslims, this game has content which may result in Jihad. Probably best to avoid playing it."

Touche.

marooko
10-20-2008, 07:21 AM
or how about..."Muslims, do like the Christians, fuck off!!"

SFChrissy
10-20-2008, 07:24 AM
or how about..."Muslims, do like the Christians, fuck off!!"haaaa

shakermaker113
10-20-2008, 07:48 AM
"Muslims, this game has content which may result in Jihad."

HA!

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 11:27 AM
A private company decided to delay the release of one of it's products so as to not offend a portion of its customer base? I don't understand what is so strange here.

The only effect on me this could have is that (if I wanted the video game) I would have to wait an extra week and one of the background songs would be second choice. That's exceedingly minor.

And I wouldn't even blame the Muslims that would've been offended; they didn't delay the game. They didn't choose the offending song there in the first place. The game developers/designers are the ones that made a mistake here.

I agree that it seems like a minor thing to be offended by but I don't get to decide what you are offended by.

faxman75
10-20-2008, 11:52 AM
I kind of agree with you John. I simply don't like seeing companies give into pressure from special interest groups of any kind. However if the reasoning was to make a few extra dollars and not offend the fan base, I can see how it was a good business position. My initital reaction was the company is probably taking a hit and it's going to cost them more to reprint the games than they would make off the people offended in the first place. It's like they are reprinting all the games to make a smaller section of their base happy.

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:05 PM
i dont believe for a second that it was because they didnt wanna offend a small portion of their fan base. no one has a problem shitting on Christians, why walk on glass when talking about muslims?

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 12:15 PM
Uh... I don't think LittleBigPlanet has a bible-burning agenda either, Marooko. Whether other games do or don't needle Christianity or Islam equally - and I've played enough first person shooters at this stage to say that Islam gets plenty of flak too, don't you worry - doesn't really matter. This isn't a game about religious aggro.

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:18 PM
you cannot deny people are more careful when talking about islam as opposed to Christianity.

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 12:21 PM
I don't, and I dismiss both religions with equal contempt, but that's not LittleBigPlanet's fault. It wasn't their intention to start this conversation, and the game loses nothing in ditching the track, so as far as I'm concerned it's no big deal. Now, if this was a game that had a specific point to make about religion, or Islam in particular, that would be a far more complex argument.

Certainly not the Mario/ Spastic furore of last Christmas...

Quadromarshia
10-20-2008, 12:23 PM
i dont believe for a second that it was because they didnt wanna offend a small portion of their fan base. no one has a problem shitting on Christians, why walk on glass when talking about muslims?

because they don't want to have robe wearing gentlemen come into their place of work and blow the place up.

obviously you didn't learn anything from 9/11.



ps. 9/11.

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:25 PM
my point is that if it were a christian group complaining, it wouldnt make the news, let alone get the game delayed and changed. i think its bullshit that they do it because a muslim group complains. fuck allah, mohamed their mothers and sisters. and jesus, and his virgin mom and ghostly dad. equally. ending with a facial. for each. that they can then lick off each others faces.

TomAz
10-20-2008, 12:28 PM
I am offended if companies kowtow to any group other than mine. Me. me me me. they should do what I want. Me and only me. Fuck diversity, fuck sensitivity, fuck understanding cultures different than mine. This should all be about me.

Quadromarshia
10-20-2008, 12:30 PM
I am offended if companies kowtow to any group other than mine. Me. me me me. they should do what I want. Me and only me. Fuck diversity, fuck sensitivity, fuck understanding cultures different than mine. This should all be about me.



I see someone's been reading "Americanism for Dummies"

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:31 PM
fuck you too. go break a hip.

faxman75
10-20-2008, 12:34 PM
I fucking hate religion. I wish the whole world knew there was no god just like me. So i agree with Tom. It's all about me, me, me.

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 12:34 PM
For this game, yes, I think it actually would have made a difference if a Christian group complained. This is a prestige title for Sony, it's being hyped as the PS3's killer app and it might just be the draw they desperately need at this point to get their online community base moving.

They need it to go perfectly, and they cannot afford any controversy around it this close to Christmas. The fact that it's a family game makes a smooth launch even more important; they don't want any bad press around a game they want parents to buy for their kids.

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:37 PM
theres always an excuse. bullshit!!

Blinken
10-20-2008, 12:37 PM
I present South Park's Cartoon Wars as evidence. (Inserting evidence when I get home)

They made the episodes as fuck you to Comedy central for letting Mohamed be shown in another Idea they had. Then they put Mohamed in the credits, and he had already appeared in another episode years earlier, as part of The Super Best Friends.

marooko
10-20-2008, 12:47 PM
well this time was different. this time they didint wanna offend anyone. im sure there was a good ratings reason or something. surely there isnt anything else behind it.

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 12:47 PM
I present South Park's Cartoon Wars as evidence. (Inserting evidence when I get home)

They made the episodes as fuck you to Comedy central for letting Mohamed be shown in another Idea they had. Then they put Mohamed in the credits, and he had already appeared in another episode years earlier, as part of The Super Best Friends.

That's entirely different. It's a totally different set of circumstances.

Matt and Trey set out with a deliberate agenda and point to make, and good for them. LittleBigPlanet is a game about a little ragdoll with sackcloth for skin and buttons for eyes. It's not about challenging religion, and the inclusion of the Koran verses was an oversight. It wan't intentional, it doesn't make any point, and it doesn't benefit the game in any way. It wouldn't make sense for Sony to fight over it, especially given that the game is so dependent on the goodwill of it's user-community.

The argument over how delicately religion should be treated is one that's worth having; but LittleBigPlanet is the wrong place to have it.

shakermaker113
10-20-2008, 05:43 PM
my point is that if it were a christian group complaining, it wouldnt make the news, let alone get the game delayed and changed.

christians don't want to punish people with 40 lashes and a year of jail time when someone names their teddy bear jesus.

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 05:46 PM
If we're going to have a conversation about whether Christians are or are not capable of religious conflict, I'm going to have to start telling you about the Shankill Butchers.

cansei de ser sexme
10-20-2008, 05:54 PM
Toumani Diabate

it is this fuckers fault

thedevious
10-20-2008, 06:16 PM
That's entirely different. It's a totally different set of circumstances. It wouldn't make sense for Sony to fight over it, especially given that the game is so dependent on the goodwill of it's user-community. The argument over how delicately religion should be treated is one that's worth having; but LittleBigPlanet is the wrong place to have it.

Except of course for this shit little idea called freedom of speech. For far too long, evolved society has pandered to these conservative monotheistic fucking nitwits.

I could give a shit what anybody's holy book says or how they feel about it. By the same token I don't care how they feel about my beliefs, that's because I'm more interested in my own evolution than I am in making sure other people don't hurt my "gods" weak, paltry, nonexistent feelings.

Will we continue to kowtow to these mental midgets allowing them to whittle away at our own beliefs and convictions? Or will we stand up to these complete assholes and create and consume any product as we fucking well see fit?

Only time will tell, but things don't look so good.

TomAz
10-20-2008, 06:30 PM
kowtow. kowtow. me me me me me.

thedevious
10-20-2008, 06:42 PM
I am offended if companies kowtow to any group other than mine. Me. me me me. they should do what I want. Me and only me. Fuck diversity, fuck sensitivity, fuck understanding cultures different than mine. This should all be about me.


kowtow. kowtow. me me me me me.

Pose a functional argument that isn't full of straw men and doesn't disparage your interlocutor.

If you have the capability.

Stackamynutz
10-20-2008, 06:45 PM
All I got to say is LAME. I hate it when people get offended about their religious beliefs when there was obviously no offense meant and quite frankly, nothing offensive about the content. F these over-zealous religious morons who think the world revolves around them. Sorry - this flares my temper a wee bit (the whole religious complaint thing always gets me going).

TomAz
10-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Pose a functional argument that isn't full of straw men and doesn't disparage your interlocutor.

If you have the capability.

that's strawpersons. sexist.

JustSteve
10-20-2008, 07:39 PM
wow, claim there is a problem right before a release and tell everyone they only have to wait one more week to buy it? no press is bad press. this reeks of planned controversy.

shakermaker113
10-20-2008, 09:49 PM
If we're going to have a conversation about whether Christians are or are not capable of religious conflict, I'm going to have to start telling you about the Shankill Butchers.

touché.

indietron
10-20-2008, 10:01 PM
Seriously... This whole situation makes me so mad. Everything would be soooo different if this was Christian based. If some song quoted the Bible and for some reason Christians got mad, nobody would do anything about it.
I guess what im trying to say is... we need equality. Its not "me me me" at all either. Its just a striving for equality.

indietron
10-20-2008, 10:05 PM
All I got to say is LAME. I hate it when people get offended about their religious beliefs when there was obviously no offense meant and quite frankly, nothing offensive about the content. F these over-zealous religious morons who think the world revolves around them. Sorry - this flares my temper a wee bit (the whole religious complaint thing always gets me going).

Seriously!

I am a Christian, but this makes me mad. We live in America, where we have the freedom to express ourselves however we want and to say whatever we want. For example, if someone wants to write a book about how they hate Christianity, then fine. Im not gonna read your book, but im not gonna attack you for "religious intolerance"

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:07 PM
That's entirely different. It's a totally different set of circumstances.

Matt and Trey set out with a deliberate agenda and point to make, and good for them. LittleBigPlanet is a game about a little ragdoll with sackcloth for skin and buttons for eyes. It's not about challenging religion, and the inclusion of the Koran verses was an oversight. It wan't intentional, it doesn't make any point, and it doesn't benefit the game in any way. It wouldn't make sense for Sony to fight over it, especially given that the game is so dependent on the goodwill of it's user-community.

The argument over how delicately religion should be treated is one that's worth having; but LittleBigPlanet is the wrong place to have it.

QFT.

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:10 PM
Except of course for this shit little idea called freedom of speech. For far too long, evolved society has pandered to these conservative monotheistic fucking nitwits.

I could give a shit what anybody's holy book says or how they feel about it. By the same token I don't care how they feel about my beliefs, that's because I'm more interested in my own evolution than I am in making sure other people don't hurt my "gods" weak, paltry, nonexistent feelings.

Will we continue to kowtow to these mental midgets allowing them to whittle away at our own beliefs and convictions? Or will we stand up to these complete assholes and create and consume any product as we fucking well see fit?

Only time will tell, but things don't look so good.

Sony has freedom of speech too, they chose to not alienate a set of their customers. That's all that's going on here.

I'm going to quote Missing Person's last sentence because it is very important:


The argument over how delicately religion should be treated is one that's worth having; but LittleBigPlanet is the wrong place to have it.

You (meaning thedevious and others arguing similarly) are attacking in all the wrong places.

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:11 PM
Seriously!

I am a Christian, but this makes me mad. We live in America, where we have the freedom to express ourselves however we want and to say whatever we want. For example, if someone wants to write a book about how they hate Christianity, then fine. Im not gonna read your book, but im not gonna attack you for "religious intolerance"

And Sony has the freedom to delay their game a week if they want to.

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:17 PM
All I got to say is LAME. I hate it when people get offended about their religious beliefs when there was obviously no offense meant and quite frankly, nothing offensive about the content. F these over-zealous religious morons who think the world revolves around them. Sorry - this flares my temper a wee bit (the whole religious complaint thing always gets me going).

Why do you care when other people are offended? What does that have to do with you? And you think they think the world revolves around them?

And, anyway, just to repeat myself again, it is Sony trying to be nice to people. It is Sony trying to not offend (potential) paying customers. I don't see what's wrong with that.

indietron
10-20-2008, 10:19 PM
Why do you care when other people are offended? What does that have to do with you? And you think they think the world revolves around them?

And, anyway, just to repeat myself again, it is Sony trying to be nice to people. It is Sony trying to not offend (potential) paying customers. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Because they are losing probably hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this delay. I understand that it was essentially their decision though. Im sure they have people that weigh out all of the circumstances.

I was kinda just ranting about situations like this in general :)

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:23 PM
Hundreds of thousands of dollars? Are that many people going to just buy something else?

Also I personally have no problem with Sony losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Though I can't for the life of me figure how that is possible.

Hannahrain
10-20-2008, 10:24 PM
Well, it's going to cost them to make the changes. Recovering everything from where they've sent it, actually making the changes, repackaging, and redistributing. People have to do all those things, and they have to pay all those people.

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah but the offensive copy I'm bidding for on eBay is already at $94. They're going to make a killing in black market resales.

roberto73
10-20-2008, 10:26 PM
All I got to say is LAME. I hate it when people get offended about their religious beliefs when there was obviously no offense meant and quite frankly, nothing offensive about the content. F these over-zealous religious morons who think the world revolves around them. Sorry - this flares my temper a wee bit (the whole religious complaint thing always gets me going).

It's probably also worth mentioning at this point that offense is in the eye of the offended. It doesn't matter if you mean it or not, or if you think there's nothing offensive about something you say. Once it's in the public arena, you no longer get to make that choice. Sony was preemptive in editing something that might have caused people offense. They didn't know for sure, but they wanted to be careful. Last I checked, this is what we call "being polite."

Hannahrain
10-20-2008, 10:27 PM
Oh, John.

indietron
10-20-2008, 10:29 PM
Well, it's going to cost them to make the changes. Recovering everything from where they've sent it, actually making the changes, repackaging, and redistributing. People have to do all those things, and they have to pay all those people.

Exactly. Alot of money goes into that. All across the nation it has to be changed. On top of that, it probably will cost even more because of the fact that they are going to try to give it out in a week. Thats ridiculously fast.


Last I checked, this is what we call "being polite."

Then be polite to all groups of people. Again, not an attack on Sony but on society in general.

indietron
10-20-2008, 10:30 PM
Yeah but the offensive copy I'm bidding for on eBay is already at $94. They're going to make a killing in black market resales.

Huh???

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 10:37 PM
Well, it's going to cost them to make the changes. Recovering everything from where they've sent it, actually making the changes, repackaging, and redistributing. People have to do all those things, and they have to pay all those people.


Exactly. Alot of money goes into that. All across the nation it has to be changed. On top of that, it probably will cost even more because of the fact that they are going to try to give it out in a week. Thats ridiculously fast.

OK, that all makes sense. I had forgotten about the fact that they probably had a lot of product made and ready to go.

Still, it doesn't bother me one bit that Sony is spending a whole lot of money. It is none of my business. Now, if I were a stockholder I might be more concerned and would want to know things like what kind of dent in sales (they sell other things too, I hear) they projected. But, even, then, I like people "being polite," as roberto put it.



Huh???

Joke.

thedevious
10-20-2008, 10:50 PM
Sony has freedom of speech too, they chose to not alienate a set of their customers. That's all that's going on here.

I'm going to quote Missing Person's last sentence because it is very important:



You (meaning thedevious and others arguing similarly) are attacking in all the wrong places.

I highly disagree.

I don't "believe"(by way of saying that there is no proof) in any god. And I most certainly carry no water for any religion. And I will rail with every fiber of my being against any attempt by ANY religion to curtail my or anyone's human rights and personal liberties.

This kind of religious bullying is so common that many people (like yourself) can't even see what's at stake because more than likely they were raised with the same fear tactics during their christian upbringing. Where I see a crime against reason and intelligence, you see a religious group standing up for their beliefs. It's a fundamental difference in beliefs, and I fully realize that I am the one on the fringe here.

Religion is my enemy and the enemy of reason.

I will attack it any place I can.

Spirituality on the other hand is absolutely necessary to the existence of mankind and I fully understand the scientific fact of it. Just to make that clear.

MissingPerson
10-20-2008, 10:51 PM
Once again, this is not just any game for Sony. Depending on who you talk to, this is the game that could make or break them this Christmas, because their console division is hurting badly. The delay is costing them yes, but evidently, they'd rather pay that than risk the launch their future depends on. They're looking at the bigger picture.

They need this game to go off without a hitch. This decision was absolutely made for commercial reasons, it wasn't a corner they were bullied into, it wasn't something that was forced on them.

Hannahrain
10-20-2008, 10:56 PM
Religion is my enemy and the enemy of reason.

I will attack it any place I can.


This is exactly the kind of reasoning that certain religious people use to convince themselves and others that they can curtail the liberties of people who believe differently. There's a huge difference between someone who is religious in their own right and practices it because it gives them a sense of security or meaning or purpose or what have you and someone who uses religion as a method of determining what other people are doing wrong and how they should be punished for it if they don't repent. I don't fucking care if someone is religious, I care if they care that I'm not. Lumping all aspects of religion in with fundamentalist wingnuts is just as blindly judgmental as the practices of the fundamentalist wingnuts you're condemning.

thedevious
10-20-2008, 11:02 PM
This is exactly the kind of reasoning that certain religious people use to convince themselves and others that they can curtail the liberties of people who believe differently. There's a huge difference between someone who is religious in their own right and practices it because it gives them a sense of security or meaning or purpose or what have you and someone who uses religion as a method of determining what other people are doing wrong and how they should be punished for it if they don't repent. I don't fucking care if someone is religious, I care if they care that I'm not. Lumping all aspects of religion in with fundamentalist wingnuts is just as blindly judgmental as the practices of the fundamentalist wingnuts you're condemning.

I do not condemn the people, I condemn the whole idea of religion. The people had no choice for the most part as they were more than likely indoctrinated long before they had the reasoning power to question it.

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 11:13 PM
I don't "believe"(by way of saying that there is no proof) in any god. And I most certainly carry no water for any religion.

I am the same position. I believe in no gods. I practice no religions.



And I will rail with every fiber of my being against any attempt by ANY religion to curtail my or anyone's human rights and personal liberties.

But in this case no religion/religious people have made any attempt to curtail anyone's human rights or personal liberties.



This kind of religious bullying

No bullying of any sort went on here. Someone at Sony realized that their product might offend some people so they decided to change it.



is so common that many people (like yourself) can't even see what's at stake because more than likely they were raised with the same fear tactics during their christian upbringing.

You haven't the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about.



Where I see a crime against reason and intelligence, you see a religious group standing up for their beliefs.

No, I see - and I have said this half a dozen times and I'm not sure how you've missed that - a large corporation concerned about offended potential customers. Sony isn't a religious group.



It's a fundamental difference in beliefs, and I fully realize that I am the one on the fringe here.

Playing martyr isn't going to get you anywhere.



Religion is my enemy and the enemy of reason.

I am certainly not the one to argue for the reasonableness of any religion but this is just more melodramatic nonsense.



I will attack it any place I can.

Then you are dumb. You have no strategy; you just attack blindly. You are going to make yourself and others look like idiots. And you're going to make the religious folk you attack feel justified in dismissing any good points you make because you make so many bad points.



Spirituality on the other hand is absolutely necessary to the existence of mankind and I fully understand the scientific fact of it. Just to make that clear.

wat

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 11:14 PM
This is exactly the kind of reasoning that certain religious people use to convince themselves and others that they can curtail the liberties of people who believe differently. There's a huge difference between someone who is religious in their own right and practices it because it gives them a sense of security or meaning or purpose or what have you and someone who uses religion as a method of determining what other people are doing wrong and how they should be punished for it if they don't repent. I don't fucking care if someone is religious, I care if they care that I'm not. Lumping all aspects of religion in with fundamentalist wingnuts is just as blindly judgmental as the practices of the fundamentalist wingnuts you're condemning.

Clap clap clap clap

mountmccabe
10-20-2008, 11:18 PM
I do not condemn the people, I condemn the whole idea of religion. The people had no choice for the most part as they were more than likely indoctrinated long before they had the reasoning power to question it.

"had no choice"?!?

I'm not going to be pissed off at an 8 year old that tells me I'm going to hell because I don't worship their god; I'm going to be pissed off at their parents. But once that kid grows up they are fully capable of thinking for themself and should be held accountable for what they say and do.

thedevious
10-20-2008, 11:41 PM
I am the same position. I believe in no gods. I practice no religions.

Excellent!



But in this case no religion/religious people have made any attempt to curtail anyone's human rights or personal liberties.

Interesting syntax, anyone meaning only people or organizations?




No bullying of any sort went on here. Someone at Sony realized that their product might offend some people so they decided to change it.

No of course there wasn't any bullying. Just a couple of polite phone calls, letters. I'm certain there would never have been the danger of litigation, or worse. You stupid dick.



You haven't the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about.

Well I stand by what I wrote whether you think I have a clue or not. I of course happen to think I do have a clue. or else I wouldn't have taken the time to write it.



No, I see - and I have said this half a dozen times and I'm not sure how you've missed that - a large corporation concerned about offended potential customers. Sony isn't a religious group.

I stated quite clearly that I don't give a shit about that. The very idea that sony or anyone should have to change anything in the name of religion is what I stand against.



Playing martyr isn't going to get you anywhere.


Now your just being an asshole.





I am certainly not the one to argue for the reasonableness of any religion but this is just more melodramatic nonsense.

It's how I very sincerely feel. And yes...it does actually make sense.



Then you are dumb. You have no strategy; you just attack blindly. You are going to make yourself and others look like idiots. And you're going to make the religious folk you attack feel justified in dismissing any good points you make because you make so many bad points.

Just because I am always fighting doesn't mean I have no strategy, how did you make that logical jump? I could say your dumb for stating that, but I trust you committed that fallacy on purpose to support your argument.



wat

?

thedevious
10-20-2008, 11:44 PM
"had no choice"?!?

I'm not going to be pissed off at an 8 year old that tells me I'm going to hell because I don't worship their god; I'm going to be pissed off at their parents. But once that kid grows up they are fully capable of thinking for themself and should be held accountable for what they say and do.

I'm not pissed at anyone, my gripe is with an idea. How many times do I have to write that?

Yes we all know how easy it is to reverse years of brainwashing, just be an adult?

You are just ludicrous man.

thedevious
10-20-2008, 11:59 PM
sigh...I am apologetic for calling you a stupid dick. You obviously aren't and I said it out of frustration. I just wanted to get that straight before you retort.

TomAz
10-21-2008, 03:37 AM
Me. me me me me me. It's all about what I want. Anything that is not me or about me is the enemy and I will attack it whenever and wherever I can. People should worship at the Church of Me and I have a lifelong loathing of those who don't. Do what I say dammit!

clarky123
10-21-2008, 03:44 AM
Many Muslims consider the mixing of music and scripture to be deeply offensive?

Well, I found the shooting dead of Christian Aid worker Gayle Williams by muslim taliban fanatics in Kabul deeply offensive......so fuck them.

MissingPerson
10-21-2008, 05:37 AM
Right, well, I think it's time for the Shankill Butchers to make an appearance after all.

The Shankill Butchers were a bunch of Protestant Loyalists who would randomly abduct people from Catholic areas of Belfast in a stolen taxi. They would then pull their teeth out, blowtorch them, or if they were feeling especially lively that night, skin them, usually before cutting their throats to the point of beheading them, and then dumping the body in a back alley somewhere.

They were eventually caught when one of their victims survived being hanged, hacked with an axe and having his wrists cut, because the night they dumped him was so cold that his heart rate slowed down. He was discovered by an old lady before he bled to death.

Those men were maniacs. Proper, honest to God, maniacs. They identified their victims as Catholics - not all were - and that was enough to torture them to death. That's hatred I can't even fathom, and a lot of those men are alive and free today. And hey, believe me, the IRA had plenty of crimes too, Jean McConville among them, they were just better at burying their bodies.

Both sides were Christian, and they still found something to hate each other over. Now, they didn't do it because they were Protestant, or because they were Catholic, but it helped immeasurably that they had distinct labels to fling around, to better dehumanise each other. They did, and do, use those labels, there's still plenty of Loyalists that consider Catholics vermin, and Nationalists that consider Protestants foreigners.

I don't think any conflict is truly religious - it can be tribal or cultural or territorial, but not religious, for the simple reason that I don't give religion that much credit. Holy texts tend to be old, contradictory, and weirdly translated, so much so that to extract any meaning at all out of them requires you to project your own morality onto it anyway. Decent people find decency, cruel people find cruelty, people who want to fight find causes to fight over. What religion is guilty of, is being malleable enough to mean anything to any nutjob who needs an excuse to go and play holy warrior.

That's not the sole preserve of Islamists, Christianity is not an inherently peaceable religion by any means. It's just that the circumstances of the populations where it's now prevalent have changed, and people aren't as quick to resort to it any more. Or at the very least, they skim past the gorey stuff because they're not cool about it anyway. There's plenty of weird old evangelicals who'd just love to send people out fighting for them, wouldn't you say? If circumstances were different, if they could get away with doing that, don't you think they would? And if they could, if they did, they would become the representative voice of Christian culture. The same way I grew up hearing about how all Protestants were like the Shankill Butchers.

None of this has any bearing on LittleBigPlanet, to be fair. I just don't think I can stomach the implication that Christianity wouldn't and doesn't permit the same kind of hatred given the right environment.

clarky123
10-21-2008, 05:47 AM
Look, they shot an innocent Aid Worker at point blank range and thats where her life story ends. However, that has not stopped Muslims complaining about well, anything involving fun - in "any environment".

MissingPerson
10-21-2008, 07:17 AM
An aid worker's murder is not the same issue as a PS3 game soundtrack.

marooko
10-21-2008, 07:27 AM
Me. me me me me me. It's all about what I want. Anything that is not me or about me is the enemy and I will attack it whenever and wherever I can. People should worship at the Church of Me and I have a lifelong loathing of those who don't. Do what I say dammit!

you're sounding like these muslim groups.

allyjoy
10-21-2008, 07:29 AM
or the US

mountmccabe
10-21-2008, 08:24 AM
Not to spoil Tom's fun or anything but, umm, he's being sarcastic. He's point towards how self-centered people are being. He is neither advocating that view nor expressing it as a personal viewpoint. Just sayin'.

marooko
10-21-2008, 08:29 AM
just showing how awesome he is. we get it.

mountmccabe
10-21-2008, 08:41 AM
Interesting syntax, anyone meaning only people or organizations?

No, I wasn't playing any games.



Well I stand by what I wrote whether you think I have a clue or not. I of course happen to think I do have a clue. or else I wouldn't have taken the time to write it.

You wrote about how I was feeling and what I was missing. I was saying you were wrong.



I stated quite clearly that I don't give a shit about that. The very idea that sony or anyone should have to change anything in the name of religion is what I stand against.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

Sony did not "have to change anything." That was their choice. We don't even know if it was a fiscally irresponsible choice. At any rate Sony was not forced. They could've said "hey not that many Muslims are going to buy this game anyway, forget them."

Are you against others making their own choices with regard to how they deal with religion/religious people/etc? Are you against other people making changes/compromises to accomodate the thoughts and beliefs of others in cases when there is no religion and/or gods involved?

Are you against others having the right to believe in gods and/or godesses? Are you against others having the right to practice a religion of their choice?



Just because I am always fighting doesn't mean I have no strategy, how did you make that logical jump? I could say your dumb for stating that, but I trust you committed that fallacy on purpose to support your argument.

Attacking blindly with pure vitriol and arguments that don't make sense definitely suggests a lack of a strategy. It suggests an intense lack of tolerance for anyone that doesn't think like you. Which sounds like a lot of religious fanatics and the way they attack without thinking, without trying to understand. In other words the very reason they are hated.



?

You wrote of the "scientific fact" of spirituality and I was too dumbfounded to spell, capitalize or punctuate correctly.

I have no idea what that could possibly mean. Please, by all means, point to the scientific articles/books on the subject that I have missed.

mountmccabe
10-21-2008, 08:42 AM
just showing how awesome he is. we get it.

Clearly no, you don't.

marooko
10-21-2008, 08:44 AM
you're right. can you spell it out again?

mountmccabe
10-21-2008, 09:43 AM
I'm not pissed at anyone, my gripe is with an idea. How many times do I have to write that?

Yes we all know how easy it is to reverse years of brainwashing, just be an adult?

You are just ludicrous man.

I know precisely how difficult it is to reverse years of brainwashing. Precisely for my case, at least.

I know/have heard from plenty of other people that grew up religious and then abandoned it.

A theme I am starting to see here is a lack of personal accountability. 'Sony had to change because of the Muslims.' 'Kids that grow up religious have to stay religious.' Religion isn't magic. It doesn't have any actual power.

Corporations and adults make their own choices and they should be held accountable for what they say and do.

Religion isn't an excuse for not thinking. Nobody should treat it as such.