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HunterGather
09-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Has anyone seen this documentary?

It's really amazing to watch (even if it is a little hard to).

It's a bunch of video footage collected and edited in more or less real-time over the course of the New York attacks. There's no narrator or anything. Just the footage audio and various telephone calls and news coverage playing over it.
http://www.history.com/minisites/9-11

------------

and now theres this other program that is talking to 9 people who were videotaping that day, and showing their footage.

Seeing the 2nd plane strike the tower from this one certain angle made it insanely more ...i dunno.

i dont watch specials about 9/11 with the footage and what not, so this is weird to see after a few years.

matildawong
09-14-2008, 09:26 PM
Hi. Yes I saw a little of it tonight. I haven't seen any specials with the footage either, so I think I know what you mean about it being a few years later and just now seeing this kind of 'real-time' footage. I felt odd; kind of creeped-out, like some sort of voyeur -- just hearing the people's reactions as they watched everything from their apartment windows several blocks away.

At one point some women were panicking (in their 30-something-th floor apartment) and the one with the camera opens the door to flee the building and there's a neighbor in the hallway looking at her with this shock and grief and confusion. It was sickening and heartbreaking.

I had to leave once they started showing people jumping from the towers. I mean, we had to leave anyway but ...

algunz
09-14-2008, 09:32 PM
I was watching it on Thursday, but I couldn't get through it all. My husband told me that the filmmakers were interviewed later, and that's where it got really interesting. When is it on again?

HunterGather
09-14-2008, 09:41 PM
Its actually on right now. It started I think 40 minutes ago or an hour and 40 minutes ago... time zones..

TomAz
09-14-2008, 09:45 PM
ok so I'm gonna have to turn in my All American card

but I think this "... that changed America" bit is overplayed.

the only way it changed america is by making people more paranoid. the same basic dynamics that were there before 9/11 (arabs hate israel, us supports israel, us long ways away from any of it) remain unchanged. Al Qaeda has not launched a 2nd succesful attack in the ensuing 7 years and shows no signs of being able to now. the real estate bubble, the credit crunch, these are things that have REALLy changed america. 9/11, well, realistically? not so much.

algunz
09-14-2008, 09:50 PM
Agreed TomAz. Normally I am sad, but this year I was angry. Angry at how people have already started to forget. That was the fucking American slogan. "Never Forget." Or even better, "Let's Roll." This year, only 7 years passed, the towers already seemed like a fleeting thought.

TomAz
09-14-2008, 09:56 PM
don't get mad. get real.

9/11 was a symbolic catastrophe but as it turns out played very little (direct) influence as to how we are now. The devalued dollar, the real estate bubble and pop, and the ensuing wall st. mess play a bigger role in everyday american's lives. ask anyone who's now upside down in their mortgage and at risk of being laid off.

Emotionally, getting Bin Laden would be extremely satisfying. realistically, though, I know that shoring up the credit crisis would help a lot more americans.


edit: I say "(direct)" because 9/11 led to the Iraq war which led to destabilization of the entire gulf region which led to $100 oil which impacts americans, of course. moreover Iraq leads to things like Russia invading Georgia and N Korea being crazy. which all leads to destabilized money markets. also did i mention the devalued dollar. anyway.

but, Al Qaeda is not causing havoc in the US. the republican party is.

gaypalmsprings
09-14-2008, 09:58 PM
http://elalmanaque.com/conflicto/fotos/wtc.jpg

algunz
09-14-2008, 10:04 PM
I could give 2 shits about Bin Laden. If we're too stupid or corrupt to find him by now, then the satisfaction is lost.

I'm angry because people are so distracted by things like economics, politics, rhetoric, and the symbolic to remember that thousands of people's lives were totally fucked and profoundly affected by that day.

TomAz
09-14-2008, 10:13 PM
I'm with you on the rest of the stuff, but distracted by economics? real people are really losing their homes because of the credit mess. I don't think that's a distraction, I think that's a real problem.

HunterGather
09-14-2008, 10:14 PM
http://elalmanaque.com/conflicto/fotos/wtc.jpg

omg

algunz
09-14-2008, 10:25 PM
I'm with you on the rest of the stuff, but distracted by economics? real people are really losing their homes because of the credit mess. I don't think that's a distraction, I think that's a real problem.

The country's, the world's problems should never be set aside, but it's all part of the cloud that is once again obscuring America's vision.

humanoid
09-14-2008, 11:44 PM
I could give 2 shits about Bin Laden. If we're too stupid or corrupt to find him by now, then the satisfaction is lost.

I'm angry because people are so distracted by things like economics, politics, rhetoric, and the symbolic to remember that thousands of people's lives were totally fucked and profoundly affected by that day.

`I'm sorry, but I'm very "distracted by economics" at the moment, I was laid off from a great job after 11 years, and haven't been able to get a real, stable new one in several months....9/11 is emotional and tragic and all, but hardly what is concerning me at the moment

superfiction
09-15-2008, 12:25 AM
http://elalmanaque.com/conflicto/fotos/wtc.jpg

HAHAHAHAA i love this.

superfiction
09-15-2008, 12:30 AM
The country's, the world's problems should never be set aside, but it's all part of the cloud that is once again obscuring America's vision.

ok i dont want to start shit with you gunz cuz you seem really nice but im calling you out kinda here cuz there have been countless genocides and ethnic cleansings over the years all over the world which affect much larger groups of people much more profoundly and those go by without most of us ever even knowing. and yeah i think its terrible what happened. and i remember everything that i was doing that day when i found out and how i felt and how everyone felt. but i guess i feel like we as human beings are not new to attrocities (spelling?) and that to say weve forgotten about one is no different than saying hey remember all these?

cuz the moment you compare 9/11 to the holocaust it kinda gets dwarfed.... just sayin..

Memorial_07
09-15-2008, 05:31 AM
Will the documentary be airing again?

Quadromarshia
09-15-2008, 05:49 AM
9/11 did more harm to civilians in Iraq than it did us. We lost two skyscrapers, 3,000 people, and gained a national sense of paranoia; they lost tens of thousands of civilians, their way of life, a sense of security, basic amenities, and are living under a (real) society of fear.

JustSteve
09-15-2008, 07:34 AM
ok i dont want to start shit with you gunz cuz you seem really nice but im calling you out kinda here cuz there have been countless genocides and ethnic cleansings over the years all over the world which affect much larger groups of people much more profoundly and those go by without most of us ever even knowing. and yeah i think its terrible what happened. and i remember everything that i was doing that day when i found out and how i felt and how everyone felt. but i guess i feel like we as human beings are not new to attrocities (spelling?) and that to say weve forgotten about one is no different than saying hey remember all these?

cuz the moment you compare 9/11 to the holocaust it kinda gets dwarfed.... just sayin..

i agree.

think about it, terrorist attacks happen every day in israel and palestine and many other regions. it was so "tragic" for us here in the states because it is so rare. imagine the people living with bombings every day. we done don't got it too bad...

TomAz
09-15-2008, 07:51 AM
The country's, the world's problems should never be set aside, but it's all part of the cloud that is once again obscuring America's vision.

I would say it's going the other way. 9/11 is the cloud obscuring our vision.

Deviate_420
09-15-2008, 08:00 AM
9-11 is so overated and over played. If 9-11 was a band you would all say it was comperable to Jack Johnson....

TomAz
09-15-2008, 08:02 AM
9-11 is going to headline Coachella next year.

algunz
09-15-2008, 08:02 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. By saying that Sept. 11 is a significant day that should not be forgotten is not meant to downplay the horrors across our world. In fact, it's our usual disregard and inability to recognize that everything in this world indirectly affects us that lead us to that day in some ways. I don't think I ever implied that it is the most horrific thing that has ever happened. I just was venting about how I felt the impact already slipping away.

And yes the symbolism of 9/11 is part of that cloud. It's not even a day. It's just a number. People's memory is no longer of those falling bodies or daughters with no fathers; it's now become about the war in Iraq. Those two should never have been intertwined. It's such the wrong legacy for those who died.

Deviate_420
09-15-2008, 08:12 AM
All im saying is why dont americans stop bitching about 9-11. As far as Im concerned, we got off easy. How about Israel or Columbia or even the Iraqis who deal with terrorism everyday?

algunz
09-15-2008, 08:21 AM
Am I bitching?


Has there been a terrorist attack anywhere in the world that was as big? I recognize bombs are going off every day killing innocent people just trying to get food for their evening meals. But Sept. 11 marks the one time in almost 60 years that the US was hit, and it was hit by four passenger jets heading for major economic, military, and political icons. Isn't that cause for reflection?

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 08:34 AM
"Never forget" is exactly the kind of attitude that leads to never-ending needless conflict. "Fucking Forget About It Already" would be a much better slogan for the world at large. It was 3000 people and it was tragic. It's also a glorious testimony to what a luxurious existence the US has had over the last century that 3000 people and a couple buildings is the worst tragedy we've suffered in over 100 years. If Dresden and Hiroshima got over it we most certainly can and should. "Never forget" is how we end up with shitheads still pissed off at the Jews just 'cause we killed Christ.

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 08:36 AM
Has anyone seen this documentary?

It's really amazing to watch (even if it is a little hard to).

It's a bunch of video footage collected and edited in more or less real-time over the course of the New York attacks. There's no narrator or anything. Just the footage audio and various telephone calls and news coverage playing over it.
http://www.history.com/minisites/9-11

------------

and now theres this other program that is talking to 9 people who were videotaping that day, and showing their footage.

Seeing the 2nd plane strike the tower from this one certain angle made it insanely more ...i dunno.

i dont watch specials about 9/11 with the footage and what not, so this is weird to see after a few years.

Fuck. That was my idea for a movie.

algunz
09-15-2008, 08:37 AM
I thought the Romans killed Christ.

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 08:42 AM
Technically it was. But the Romans left it up to the Jews to decide his fate and they wanted him dead.

Quadromarshia
09-15-2008, 08:42 AM
I thought the Romans killed Christ.

It's easier to hate Jews than Italians. What would people do if they couldn't grab a slice of pizza after their clan rally?

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 08:43 AM
"Never forget" is exactly the kind of attitude that leads to never-ending needless conflict. "Fucking Forget About It Already" would be a much better slogan for the world at large. It was 3000 people and it was tragic. It's also a glorious testimony to what a luxurious existence the US has had over the last century that 3000 people and a couple buildings is the worst tragedy we've suffered in over 100 years. If Dresden and Hiroshima got over it we most certainly can and should. "Never forget" is how we end up with shitheads still pissed off at the Jews just 'cause we killed Christ.


So many people have already forgotten about it. Last week I hardly saw any flags waving from cars like I would have a few years ago.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 08:44 AM
Please. Much like 9/11, the Romans were just patsies. Wops aren't smart enough to kill God, just like Muslims aren't smart enough to have pulled off 9/11. The one thing we should always remember about 9/11 is how ballsy and evil a nation's government can be to its own people and how easily manipulated our populous is. Never Forget What A Bunch Of Lying Cocksuckers We Are.

Deviate_420
09-15-2008, 08:47 AM
Am I bitching?


Has there been a terrorist attack anywhere in the world that was as big? I recognize bombs are going off every day killing innocent people just trying to get food for their evening meals. But Sept. 11 marks the one time in almost 60 years that the US was hit, and it was hit by four passenger jets heading for major economic, military, and political icons. Isn't that cause for reflection?

I'm not saying that you are bitching. 2nd we have been hit by terrorism dozens of times in the last 60 years (Oklahoma boming, abortion clinic bombings, ect ect). People are straping themselves with explosives with nails and ballberings in their pockets and walking into stores, malls, resturants and killing dozens of people. THATS terrorism thats something to moarn and thats a reason to be afraid. 9-11 was a fluke. I f we had even a halfway compitent government then 9-11 would not of happend. i am 100% positive of it. It is this "need for reflection" that has allowed this country and its people to go down the shiter. There is no need to reflect or remember 9-11. It's time to get over it learn from it and move on.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:02 AM
hey let me help you out.

I'm not saying that you are bitching. 2nd we have been hit by terrorism dozens of times in the last 60 years (Oklahoma boming, abortion clinic bombings, etc etc). People are strapping themselves with explosives with nails and ballbearings in their pockets and walking into stores, malls, resturants and killing dozens of people. THAT'S terrorism that's something to mourn and that's a reason to be afraid. 9-11 was a fluke. If we had even a halfway competent government then 9-11 would not have happend. i am 100% positive of it. It is this "need for reflection" that has allowed this country and its people to go down the shitter. There is no need to reflect or remember 9-11. It's time to get over it, learn from it, and move on.



I may have missed a few.

algunz
09-15-2008, 09:03 AM
I think some of you are missing my point. For me, Sept. 11 is the catalyst for reflecting on what assholes we as a country can be. To remember that people died because of our goverment's inability to protect us and protect & respect foreign countries and views. We need to learn from that day. The Oklahoma Bombing or the Unibomber were all tragic, but Sept. 11 represents a functional breakdown in our government's foreign policies. Granted we should recognize this every day, but most don't. We are so distracted by other things (as we should be) but let's atleast take this one day a year and allow the dead that regard.

I fucking hate that it's called Patriot's Day, btw. Fucking propaganda.

HunterGather
09-15-2008, 09:06 AM
like much of what has been discussed in this thread, this has nothing to do with the documentary. But sort of an interesting watch:

eHqpv55ppUc

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:07 AM
http://dare-to-dream.us/images/Heirarchy_of_Paranoia.gif

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:26 AM
Please. Much like 9/11, the Romans were just patsies. Wops aren't smart enough to kill God, just like Muslims aren't smart enough to have pulled off 9/11. The one thing we should always remember about 9/11 is how ballsy and evil a nation's government can be to its own people and how easily manipulated our populous is. Never Forget What A Bunch Of Lying Cocksuckers We Are.

Randy please tell me you don't really believe all those 9/11 conspiracies.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:27 AM
I think some of you are missing my point. For me, Sept. 11 is the catalyst for reflecting on what assholes we as a country can be. To remember that people died because of our goverment's inability to protect us and protect & respect foreign countries and views. We need to learn from that day. The Oklahoma Bombing or the Unibomber were all tragic, but Sept. 11 represents a functional breakdown in our government's foreign policies. Granted we should recognize this every day, but most don't. We are so distracted by other things (as we should be) but let's atleast take this one day a year and allow the dead that regard.

I fucking hate that it's called Patriot's Day, btw. Fucking propaganda.

For me, Sept. 11 is the catalyst for reflecting on what assholes we as a country can be for still believing that our government failed to protect us, as opposed to the much more probable intentionally murdered us.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:29 AM
All of them? I don't believe anything except that there's no way the story we got fed is how those buildings came down, which is what I've believed since day one. There's so much inconsistent with general physics and terroristic behavior it just doesn't match up. No, I have no theories whatsoever on how it did happen or who did it, just that those buildings didn't collapse of their own accord.

thinnerair
09-15-2008, 09:30 AM
never forget

http://www.rumorsdaily.com/brd/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/s640x480.jpg

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:31 AM
Of course they didn't collapse of their own accord. Planes flew into them, that's what caused them to collapse.

chairmenmeow47
09-15-2008, 09:33 AM
i didn't watch the special because i watched all of this footage live when it happened.

dow is down 250 today, to tom's point. i think this country would be in a LOT better shape if we paid more attention to where our money was going than how we can "never forget" something all of us obviously remember and aren't forgetting anytime soon. there's a difference between living in mourning the rest of your life and having a memory of something significant happening. just because some of us don't have decals of the twin towers and "NEVER FORGET" in big letters on our car doesn't mean that we "forgot".

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:33 AM
like much of what has been discussed in this thread, this has nothing to do with the documentary. But sort of an interesting watch:

eHqpv55ppUc

Holy shit, what is the point of that video? That is the stupidest fucking thing I've seen yet. Comparing different video feeds taken at DIFFERENT ANGLES, and trying to say none of them look the same so it has to be fake, HELLO FUCKING IDIOTS, they're different videos from different angles/heights, of course you're not gonna have the same angle/view of the second plane, holy shit. The only thing more stupid and idiotic than the actual 9/11 conspiracy is the people who believe in it.

thinnerair
09-15-2008, 09:35 AM
Remember that show 120 Minutes? I never forgot.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:36 AM
Only skyscrapers ever to collapse from fire damage. No. 7 is the real giveaway. Also I'd like someone to explain how you honestly believe after the first two towers came down a jetliner manager to be flown through the most heavily protected airspace in the entire world and crash into the one side of the pentagon that happened to be under construction.

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:36 AM
All of them? I don't believe anything except that there's no way the story we got fed is how those buildings came down, which is what I've believed since day one. There's so much inconsistent with general physics and terroristic behavior it just doesn't match up. No, I have no theories whatsoever on how it did happen or who did it, just that those buildings didn't collapse of their own accord.

Randy, take into account what happen those buildings.....jets full of jet fuel flew into em at 400mph.....pretty much ripping the building apart at point of impact....PLUS, the WTC towers were designed so much of the structure and support was the outside frame (which is why there was so much open office space in those buildings and why the stairways/elevators were all in the center of the towers). It wasn't built like a standard skyscraper with a steel box frame on the inside and outside...the only support was the outside frame...which is also why like 95% of all the walls and everything inside those towers were nothing but sheetrock....so when you have a huge plane crash at high speed into the tower, ripping apart 65% of the outside support/structure for the tower, it's easy to see how the "pancake" effect started to happen.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:39 AM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/dumpdoolittle/NeverForget_500.jpg

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:40 AM
Only skyscrapers ever to collapse from fire damage.

Only skyscrapers to have had commercial jetliners flown into them.

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 09:41 AM
Randy, take into account what happen those buildings.....jets full of jet fuel flew into em at 400mph.....pretty much ripping the building apart at point of impact....PLUS, the WTC towers were designed so much of the structure and support was the outside frame (which is why there was so much open office space in those buildings and why the stairways/elevators were all in the center of the towers). It wasn't built like a standard skyscraper with a steel box frame on the inside and outside...the only support was the outside frame...which is also why like 95% of all the walls and everything inside those towers were nothing but sheetrock....so when you have a huge plane crash at high speed into the tower, ripping apart 65% of the outside support/structure for the tower, it's easy to see how the "pancake" effect started to happen.

Did those same planes also happen to slice into the support columns 90 stories below at a perfect 45 degree angle and also be hot enough to melt the column?

http://i36.tinypic.com/2cdg9io.jpg

algunz
09-15-2008, 09:42 AM
For me, Sept. 11 is the catalyst for reflecting on what assholes we as a country can be for still believing that our government failed to protect us, as opposed to the much more probable intentionally murdered us.

So, are you saying the government hired Saudis to purposely fly those planes into buildings? What did they gain from that? What was their motivation?




My questions are genuine. They are not an attempt to mock your ideas.

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:43 AM
That isn't a perfect 45 degrees at all, and all that picture shows me is that 9/11 conspiracy theorists love jumping to conclusions.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:43 AM
http://sonicchicken.net/blog/wordpress/wp-content/tinfoil_hat.jpg

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 09:44 AM
That isn't a perfect 45 degrees at all, and all that picture shows me is that 9/11 conspiracy theorists love jumping to conclusions.

Ok maybe not perfect. But it's pretty fucking close and I'm pretty sure shit like that doesn't happen just out of the blue when a building falls.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:44 AM
Randy, take into account what happen those buildings.....jets full of jet fuel flew into em at 400mph.....pretty much ripping the building apart at point of impact....PLUS, the WTC towers were designed so much of the structure and support was the outside frame (which is why there was so much open office space in those buildings and why the stairways/elevators were all in the center of the towers). It wasn't built like a standard skyscraper with a steel box frame on the inside and outside...the only support was the outside frame...which is also why like 95% of all the walls and everything inside those towers were nothing but sheetrock....so when you have a huge plane crash at high speed into the tower, ripping apart 65% of the outside support/structure for the tower, it's easy to see how the "pancake" effect started to happen.

That's complete horseshit. The inner columns were the fucking elevator banks. The inside of those towers was NOTHING but steel. No. 7 was a fucking federal building, designed to be able to withstand, oh, you know, possible bombing and shit.

And no, it's not easy to see. I'm surprised people do see it that way cause it all looked like horseshit to me the first time I saw it. But this is a tired argument I don't want to get off on again. Not a single piece of steel left standing, first skyscrapers ever to collapse from fire damage just happening to do so perfectly, falling straight down, leaving not one scrap of steel standing and pulverizing all the concrete in 110 floors... then the other building that wasn't hit by anything, collapsed for no particular reason. Pentagon airspace mysteriously not being guarded.

Just sayin'.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:46 AM
So, are you saying the government hired Saudis to purposely fly those planes into buildings? What did they gain from that? What was their motivation?




My questions are genuine. They are not an attempt to mock your ideas.

I have absolutely no idea. This is why I don't like being lumped in with conspiracy theorists--those people are just as annoying. They have no way of knowing what really happened or who or why, none of us do. I just know that story is bullshit, clear as day. Same way the Magic Bullet is bullshit. Don't know who DID shoot Kennedy, but the Magic Bullet is bullshit.

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:46 AM
Well first off, again, that is not 45 degrees...not even close....looks more like 60-70 degrees, plus things look different at different camera angles, so no one will ever know....and while many of you will say well something like that just doesn't happen when a building collapses, uh.....how many times have we had a two gigantic skyscrapers fall due to airliners crashing into them? Not like there is a lot of reference to go on to say this or that could of/couldn't of happened.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 09:46 AM
You go randy. Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 09:49 AM
What facts, Tom?

menikmati
09-15-2008, 09:49 AM
That's complete horseshit. The inner columns were the fucking elevator banks. The inside of those towers was NOTHING but steel. No. 7 was a fucking federal building, designed to be able to withstand, oh, you know, possible bombing and shit.

And no, it's not easy to see. I'm surprised people do see it that way cause it all looked like horseshit to me the first time I saw it. But this is a tired argument I don't want to get off on again. Not a single piece of steel left standing, first skyscrapers ever to collapse from fire damage just happening to do so perfectly, falling straight down, leaving not one scrap of steel standing and pulverizing all the concrete in 110 floors... then the other building that wasn't hit by anything, collapsed for no particular reason. Pentagon airspace mysteriously not being guarded.

Just sayin'.

Okay I get what you mean...and honestly, while I don't believe all these conspiracy theories regarding that day, the collapse of WTC7 is very fucking odd, I'll give you that....it seems very unnatural...that's the only red flag of any of this to me.

algunz
09-15-2008, 09:51 AM
What facts do we really have? The only fact is that 3,000 people died. The rest is all hearsay, theories, and conspiracies.

chairmenmeow47
09-15-2008, 09:54 AM
i also think a lot of what happened doesn't look "right". it doesn't mean that i have some sort of theory as to what actually happened, i just know a lot of things don't add up. it's an instinct. that's all. like at that time, i could barely get cell phone service in my house or while driving on a freeway, and yet the people of flight 93 were able to have entire phone conversations on a plane flying through the air at several hundred miles per hour. the pentagon, the collapse of building 7... a lot of it just doesn't add up.

that doesn't mean i believe the loose change video or anything like that, but i think we as a people have a right to question anything that doesn't add up to us. it shouldn't "offend" the memory of those that died either. it just means some of us think things look a little fishy and we're not going to just buy everything we've been sold. just like jfk. my dad has the copy of life magazine with that doctored photo of oswald. and we won't ever know what REALLY happened there either, but we can still question it.

Blinken
09-15-2008, 09:57 AM
Only skyscrapers ever to collapse from fire damage. No. 7 is the real giveaway. Also I'd like someone to explain how you honestly believe after the first two towers came down a jetliner manager to be flown through the most heavily protected airspace in the entire world and crash into the one side of the pentagon that happened to be under construction.

Ok here goes. The two towers collapesed because of fire, the jet fuel heated up the steel to a point where the structual integrety was around 50%. When it is that weak it can not support the building anymore plain and simple. After the top came down, it was a domino effect as the potential energy was released and everything fell.

The WTC 7 was missing a chunk out of the side from the collapse of the other two buildings. Massive generators and massive amounts of diesel where stored in WTC 7 as well which helped to accelerate the fires. If you want pictures of the structural damge let me know. When the building collapesed the first part to go was the corner over the massive structual damge, following that the rest of it fell down as the potential energy stored in the building was released.

The conspiracy theorisits like to say that the building was "pulled" but that is not true, in fact that is not proper termanology for demoletions. The statement to pull was in respect to getting the firefighters out of the building in case it collapesed as well. The only time it has been used to describe destroying a building is when they hook up cranes and literally pull the building over. I think we can all agree that didn't happen to WTC 7.

The problem with the pentagon attacks are that it was happening the FAA didn't know what was going on the had 12 planes that they thought were highjacked. Plus we have been shown how the administration can fuck shit up beyond reason (Katrina, Iraq). I find pretty easy to believe that the botched the response to the attacks.

If you think the government did this, then the best way for them to pull it off would be one of two ways. Either learn of an impending attack and do nothing, or hire a few muslims to do the job through the CIA black ops. No reason to plan an extravagant demolation operation no reason at all.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 10:12 AM
What facts, Tom?

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

Quadromarshia
09-15-2008, 11:08 AM
I don't put it past our government to do us like that. Is it the general consensus of our country that only fundementalist islamics have the capability of being sinister?

Doesn't matter who you are, every human has the capabilty of being evil.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 12:11 PM
Ok here goes. The two towers collapesed because of fire, the jet fuel heated up the steel to a point where the structual integrety was around 50%. When it is that weak it can not support the building anymore plain and simple. After the top came down, it was a domino effect as the potential energy was released and everything fell.

The WTC 7 was missing a chunk out of the side from the collapse of the other two buildings. Massive generators and massive amounts of diesel where stored in WTC 7 as well which helped to accelerate the fires. If you want pictures of the structural damge let me know. When the building collapesed the first part to go was the corner over the massive structual damge, following that the rest of it fell down as the potential energy stored in the building was released.

The conspiracy theorisits like to say that the building was "pulled" but that is not true, in fact that is not proper termanology for demoletions. The statement to pull was in respect to getting the firefighters out of the building in case it collapesed as well. The only time it has been used to describe destroying a building is when they hook up cranes and literally pull the building over. I think we can all agree that didn't happen to WTC 7.

The problem with the pentagon attacks are that it was happening the FAA didn't know what was going on the had 12 planes that they thought were highjacked. Plus we have been shown how the administration can fuck shit up beyond reason (Katrina, Iraq). I find pretty easy to believe that the botched the response to the attacks.

If you think the government did this, then the best way for them to pull it off would be one of two ways. Either learn of an impending attack and do nothing, or hire a few muslims to do the job through the CIA black ops. No reason to plan an extravagant demolation operation no reason at all.

Blink, did you really think I haven't heard their story for why the buildings collapsed? That was kinda insulting, or at the very least a waste of time. I'm well aware of what they claim. This in no way changes how stupid it sounds when you're actually watching tape of the collapses over and over. And "pulling" a building IS a controlled demolition terminology--you can argue about what they were referring to on that particular day all you want but please don't try to sit there and correct what you assume to be my understanding of a piece of hearsay. You can interpret it your way all you want. The buildings fell perfectly straight down because of Pancakes. Yes. Sure.


http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

thinnerair
09-15-2008, 12:18 PM
You can interpret it your way all you want. The buildings fell perfectly straight down because of Pancakes. Yes. Sure.


you know... the biggest victims in all of this are the pancakes.

greghead
09-15-2008, 12:23 PM
I think we all know how WTC 7 really came down

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/greg-head/godzilla_bw.jpg

chairmenmeow47
09-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I think we all know how WTC 7 really came down

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/greg-head/godzilla_bw.jpg

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h aha

Blinken
09-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Well, what else do you want? how do you expect the buildings to fall if it was caused by the planes?

You are right it is a term, for pulling a building over with cranes, ala WTC 11. Not bringing it down with explosives.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 12:39 PM
Well, what else do you want? how do you expect the buildings to fall if it was caused by the planes?

You are right it is a term, for a pulling a building over with cranes, ala WTC 11. Not bringing it down with explosives.

Well I've heard supposed professional demolitions people say otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. This is why I don't like getting into these parts of the conversation, because then all you're doing is throwing what the supposed experts who back up my side against the supposed experts who back up your side at each other. And that's fucking gay.

How do I expect them to fall if it was caused by planes, jet fuel, and fire? I think if that had really happened then what would have gone down is one side of the tower--"side" probably meaning at least two corners because, and this is purely speculation, but I don't think just one corner's steel melting through completely would cause it to collapse yet--would have gone first. The top of the tower would tilt sideways as the weight started to crush the floors beneath it, but starting on the more damaged side first with the steel-intact side now being strained heavily. Then after this tilted collapse had crushed through a floor or two on the side giving way, the weight would become too much and the less-damaged steel would snap.

Then all the floors above the point of impact of the planes would crush a few more floors while falling OFF TO THE SIDE. That's what usually happens with collapsing from fire damage. Things don't fall straight down. In order for things to fall straight down, there would have to miraculously be simultaneous release of the support on all sides, including the MASSIVE BANK OF ELEVATORS AND STEEL THAT MADE UP THE ENTIRE CENTER OF THE TOWERS.

I might be crazy though. Still funny why the fighter jets that patrol Pentagon airspace all day long somehow didn't notice that plane.

Boourns
09-15-2008, 12:42 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/frankatcoachella/Whoyagonnacall911.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/frankatcoachella/thwomp911.gif

Cpt. Funkaho
09-15-2008, 12:48 PM
I used to think that the "TEH MOON LANDING WAZ FAKED" conspiracy theorists were the most annoying and fact-denying people out there.

Then 9/11 happened. Now it's a whole new ballgame.

menikmati
09-15-2008, 12:48 PM
Let's get the Mythbusters on this.

Cpt. Funkaho
09-15-2008, 12:55 PM
Let's get the Mythbusters on this.

Dude, who needs Mythbusters for this? I was going to school at New Mexico Tech on 9/11, which is home of the Energetic Materials Research & Test Center (basically they blow shit up and set things on fire all the time, and occasionally they'll test a rocket sled or train counterterrorist security forces from around the globe). On the afternoon of 9/11, the guys there had decided on the fire-melting-superstructure theory as the most likely reason for collapse, so they took some of the jet fuel they had on hand and ran tests on steel girders similar to the ones at the WTC. The result: slam dunk. It was absolutely the fire. No question. The tests were so conclusive that no other theory was seriously considered after that.

menikmati
09-15-2008, 12:56 PM
It was a joke.

Cpt. Funkaho
09-15-2008, 12:56 PM
It was a joke.

Yeah, I knew, I just decided to get preachy anyway. Sorry about that.

Boourns
09-15-2008, 12:57 PM
I used to think that the "TEH MOON LANDING WAZ FAKED" conspiracy theorists were the most annoying and fact-denying people out there.

Then 9/11 happened. Now it's a whole new ballgame.

The moon landing was faked. Edgar Cayce said that the human body cannot be that far from earth, and that makes it so.

Blinken
09-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Well I've heard supposed professional demolitions people say otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. This is why I don't like getting into these parts of the conversation, because then all you're doing is throwing what the supposed experts who back up my side against the supposed experts who back up your side at each other. And that's fucking gay.
You are right, we could go back and forth all day because we both have researched each side, and reached different conclusions. We each have evidence to throw at each other and don't believe the other side so it would be pointless.


How do I expect them to fall if it was caused by planes, jet fuel, and fire? I think if that had really happened then what would have gone down is one side of the tower--"side" probably meaning at least two corners because, and this is purely speculation, but I don't think just one corner's steel melting through completely would cause it to collapse yet--would have gone first. The top of the tower would tilt sideways as the weight started to crush the floors beneath it, but starting on the more damaged side first with the steel-intact side now being strained heavily. Then after this tilted collapse had crushed through a floor or two on the side giving way, the weight would become too much and the less-damaged steel would snap.

Then all the floors above the point of impact of the planes would crush a few more floors while falling OFF TO THE SIDE. That's what usually happens with collapsing from fire damage. Things don't fall straight down. In order for things to fall straight down, there would have to miraculously be simultaneous release of the support on all sides, including the MASSIVE BANK OF ELEVATORS AND STEEL THAT MADE UP THE ENTIRE CENTER OF THE TOWERS.

Interesting, when the plane hit it blew through the building you see the blast coming out of the back. I would think now that both sides are damaged. and that is why we don't see it fall the way you described. But in WTC 7 we do see the corner that is the most damaged fall first, if only for a second before the rest falls as well. But that is just the way I see it.


I might be crazy though. Still funny why the fighter jets that patrol Pentagon airspace all day long somehow didn't notice that plane.

YES!! It is very interesting to see this happen. As I have said before I could see the government knowing of the attack and just let it happen. Remember the Bin Laden attack memo, they had for warning. This is a much more realistic theory to me at least.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 01:05 PM
Dude, who needs Mythbusters for this? I was going to school at New Mexico Tech on 9/11, which is home of the Energetic Materials Research & Test Center (basically they blow shit up and set things on fire all the time, and occasionally they'll test a rocket sled or train counterterrorist security forces from around the globe). On the afternoon of 9/11, the guys there had decided on the fire-melting-superstructure theory as the most likely reason for collapse, so they took some of the jet fuel they had on hand and ran tests on steel girders similar to the ones at the WTC. The result: slam dunk. It was absolutely the fire. No question. The tests were so conclusive that no other theory was seriously considered after that.

Slam dunk? So just because steel can melt proves what they claim happened to a "slam dunk" level of certainty?

People are fucking idiots.

algunz
09-15-2008, 01:09 PM
So are you sometimes, Randy. If you would just learn to admit it occasionally, you'd be a much more complete person.

TomAz
09-15-2008, 01:41 PM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/coverup.html

ykd-syzZ4ZY

Cpt. Funkaho
09-15-2008, 02:47 PM
Slam dunk? So just because steel can melt proves what they claim happened to a "slam dunk" level of certainty?

People are fucking idiots.

I'm not arguing this with you, sir. It's just not worth it.

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 03:08 PM
I think that one of the shadiest things is that all the steel and concrete that was in the WTC was immediately sent to India for recycling.

Here you have one of the largest crime scenes in the history of forensic science and none of it is saved? Fuck that. You think all that mess from the train accident in LA is going to straight to the incinerator? No way. It's going to a hangar or some thing where they are going to scrutinize every piece of debris.

If the story about the jet fuel is true then they could have pulled out a column and say, "See this is where it burned. This is where it structurally failed." But since there is none of that, we'll never know.

Quadromarshia
09-15-2008, 04:09 PM
9/11 is to our generation as the Sinking of the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, and the Gulf of Tonkin is to others.

Especially in polarization after the event, and how the government let each of those happen as well.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 04:19 PM
I think that one of the shadiest things is that all the steel and concrete that was in the WTC was immediately sent to India for recycling.

Here you have one of the largest crime scenes in the history of forensic science and none of it is saved? Fuck that. You think all that mess from the train accident in LA is going to straight to the incinerator? No way. It's going to a hangar or some thing where they are going to scrutinize every piece of debris.

If the story about the jet fuel is true then they could have pulled out a column and say, "See this is where it burned. This is where it structurally failed." But since there is none of that, we'll never know.

I wasn't going to bring up the whole "they shipped all the steel to Asia immediately for no particular reason" point because I can't prove it's true but that is another part of the story I have heard that makes it all sound awful suspect.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 04:20 PM
I'm not arguing this with you, sir. It's just not worth it.

Just because the steel could have been melted by that fire doesn't explain everything that happened. If you think it does, then you're right--it's not worth it.

algunz
09-15-2008, 04:28 PM
"If that article claims evolution is a fact it can blow me--it needs to have its definition of what a fact is straightened out. I believe in evolution, it's quite clearly a logical deduction Darwin came up with there, but I'll be goddamned if it's anything near approaching a clear 'fact.' "

For some reason your arguement and the above quote from the non-believers thread seem rather hypocritical. Randy you seem to accept "fact" however it may fit in your twisted logic.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 04:31 PM
My "arguement," Gunz? Don't you teach English? Also, what the fuck are you babbling about? In what possible respect is any of what I've said between those two threads hypocritical? Are you going to insist on being really, really stupid like right in front of my face again, per usual?

amyzzz
09-15-2008, 04:33 PM
Randy, is everyone else stupid? Just not you?

algunz
09-15-2008, 04:34 PM
Damn those spelling errors.

It just seems that you accept fact how ever it fits into your logic. You don't accept things as they are, you recognize them based on how you interpret them. There's too many screens. It creates a slight sense of delusion.

Blinken
09-15-2008, 04:38 PM
Where would they keep all the steel? there was massive amounts. Alot of the steel was used to create the U.S.S. New York, it was not all shipped off to Asia. Look if we examine any major event close enough we will find some descrepancies and coincidence. Which is why there are so many conspiracy theories.

Wheres the beef?
09-15-2008, 04:47 PM
Where would they keep all the steel? there was massive amounts. Alot of the steel was used to create the U.S.S. New York, it was not all shipped off to Asia. Look if we examine any major event close enough we will find some descrepancies and coincidence. Which is why there are so many conspiracy theories.

I don't know. They could have found somewhere. How bout the great salt flats? There are so many conspiracy theories because all the evidence that would either prove or disprove any theory was conveniently and quickly either destroyed or classified.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 04:59 PM
Randy, is everyone else stupid? Just not you?

I dunno, one of you dumbasses will have to answer that.


Damn those spelling errors.

It just seems that you accept fact how ever it fits into your logic. You don't accept things as they are, you recognize them based on how you interpret them. There's too many screens. It creates a slight sense of delusion.

I don't understand this at all. What facts did I acknowledge about this at all? I don't see this discrepancy you seem to find so glaring. The only thing close to facts I claim to hold at all are what I saw with my own eyes, and even that I don't try and claim to be a definite.

Blinken
09-15-2008, 05:02 PM
It wouldn't prove or disprove anything. The people that believe in the conspriracy would still believe in the conspiracy. If the report said that all damage was caused by jet fuel, and other combustables, along with a plane crash, people would say they are lying. Plus what are you really going find in all that steel?

Utah?? We would pay to ship hundreds of Tons of steel away to the middle of nowhere?

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 05:05 PM
Blink, you're being ridiculous. Shipping evidence to Asia would constitute a pretty major obstruction of justice in any other case. What are they going to find in all that steel? Oh, I dunno... maybe some better proof of how the collapse happened?

Fucking retarded.

algunz
09-15-2008, 05:12 PM
Ok maybe I'm confused because you don't seem to accept any "fact" at all. What constitutes a fact for you? Do you need to see it, experience it?

Jon Blazed
09-15-2008, 05:12 PM
120 minutes!!!

Blinken
09-15-2008, 05:22 PM
300,000 tons of scrap metal was created by the collapse. Most of it was not hit by the plane or exposed to jet fuel. It came from the pancake theory on the collapse. The article I just read only mentioned around 100,000 tons being shipped of to Asia, that is one third of the steel. Did we really need that extra 100,000 tons? NO WE DIDN'T!! We looked it over, a report was made but people don't believe what happened.

If they saved it all and said that it happened in the exact way that the official report did, you would still believe that it was demolished by explosives. It wouldn't change your mind, I would be hearing some bullshit about how they fabricated the report and tests.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 11:38 PM
300,000 tons of scrap metal was created by the collapse. Most of it was not hit by the plane or exposed to jet fuel. It came from the pancake theory on the collapse. The article I just read only mentioned around 100,000 tons being shipped of to Asia, that is one third of the steel. Did we really need that extra 100,000 tons? NO WE DIDN'T!! We looked it over, a report was made but people don't believe what happened.

If they saved it all and said that it happened in the exact way that the official report did, you would still believe that it was demolished by explosives. It wouldn't change your mind, I would be hearing some bullshit about how they fabricated the report and tests.

This is just fucking stupid, Blink. You're defending the glaringly suspicious and frankly ILLEGAL actions taken in the wake of the attack on the grounds that I'm such an illogical being it wouldn't make a difference to me. That's not a valid argument. You explain to me what possible reason they would have to ship all that steel to Asia instead of keeping it here either as evidence or to be recycled into new buildings. What explanation are you giving for their motivation in rapidly shipping all that evidence halfway across the world?

There's nothing more annoying than being told that some unbelievably suspicious behavior that factors strongly into the suspicion of a conspiracy is irrelevant on the grounds that even if they hadn't behaved unbelievably suspiciously there'd still be a conspiracy theory. Save your speculation for your momma and talk about what actually happened. What actually happened is a whole lot of shady shit.

RotationSlimWang
09-15-2008, 11:41 PM
Ok maybe I'm confused because you don't seem to accept any "fact" at all. What constitutes a fact for you? Do you need to see it, experience it?

That's as close as anything can get to being a fact, except that our senses do lie to us as well, This is why there are no facts, But one thing that under no circumstances constitutes a fact is the word of some expert who none of us know for fuck.

You know they once proved it's impossible for airplanes to fly using perfectly valid math, right?

Cpt. Funkaho
09-16-2008, 12:59 AM
You know they once proved it's impossible for airplanes to fly using perfectly valid math, right?

Pretty sure you're thinking of a bumblebee, not an airplane, slick.

And that's an urban legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Bumblebee_myths), much like the conspiracy theories (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp) you're espousing.

I'd tell you you need to get laid to blow off some steam or something, only I don't think it would help.

RotationSlimWang
09-16-2008, 01:38 AM
Pretty sure you're thinking of a bumblebee, not an airplane, slick.

And that's an urban legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Bumblebee_myths), much like the conspiracy theories (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp) you're espousing.

I'd tell you you need to get laid to blow off some steam or something, only I don't think it would help.

Nope, not bumblebee, airplanes. It was a somewhat famous little trick of math back in the fifties I do believe.

That snopes article is, yet again, arguing against a point I'm not making. Nowhere in that article does it address the simple question of why the Pentagon airspace--normally heavily guarded by constant and regular patrol by jet aircraft as one would think should certainly be the case--was so easily penetrated by a gigantic plane. I didn't say anything about it not being a plane, I didn't say anything about the impact, none of that. I'd just like to know how it is that when the nation was UNDER ATTACK (cue dramatic news score), during which one would imagine they'd be protecting the most important parts of the nation's capitol's sky against the possibility of Boeings, that plane somehow went completely unnoticed.

Kinda like Pearl Harbor, when our radar mysteriously didn't notice the Japanese planes coming. Awful convenient, walrus.

And I get laid plenty, thanks much. Feel free to ask Ivy whether I seemed frustrated come Monday. But that's perfectly alright, just keep deflecting the subject away from the glaring flaws in the story we've been told by attributing by cynicism to a lack of sex. It must be so much easier to not get any pussy when you're blind as a fucking bat and fourth-grade naive to boot, isn't it?

anti-square
09-16-2008, 10:51 AM
My first rock hard boner had all the girls giggling at me in fourth grade as I rubbed it profusely in an attempt to make it go away. Thanks for reminding me how awesome I was.

BROKENDOLL
09-16-2008, 11:16 AM
My "arguement," Gunz? Don't you teach English? Also, what the fuck are you babbling about? In what possible respect is any of what I've said between those two threads hypocritical? Are you going to insist on being really, really stupid like right in front of my face again, per usual? Damn, I know if I was Algunz, and had an opportunity to be right in front of your face right now, my first reaction wouldn't be stupid...it would be centered..."Bop!"


I dunno, one of you dumbasses will have to answer that.



I don't understand this at all. What facts did I acknowledge about this at all? I don't see this discrepancy you seem to find so glaring. The only thing close to facts I claim to hold at all are what I saw with my own eyes, and even that I don't try and claim to be a definite. Weren't you like one of the last to find out what happened that day due to coming off one of your 6 day binges and hanging out at some titty bar? I recall reading something you wrote about that...in detail, I might add... Hm, I could be wrong. (Something you might want to consider admitting every once in awhile.)

Blinken
09-16-2008, 02:02 PM
This is just fucking stupid, Blink. You're defending the glaringly suspicious and frankly ILLEGAL actions taken in the wake of the attack on the grounds that I'm such an illogical being it wouldn't make a difference to me. That's not a valid argument. You explain to me what possible reason they would have to ship all that steel to Asia instead of keeping it here either as evidence or to be recycled into new buildings. What explanation are you giving for their motivation in rapidly shipping all that evidence halfway across the world?

There's nothing more annoying than being told that some unbelievably suspicious behavior that factors strongly into the suspicion of a conspiracy is irrelevant on the grounds that even if they hadn't behaved unbelievably suspiciously there'd still be a conspiracy theory. Save your speculation for your momma and talk about what actually happened. What actually happened is a whole lot of shady shit.

It was recycled in Asia, where there is massive demand for steel, do to the increase in constructionto go along with the economic growth. We live in a global economy just because it wasn't recycled here doesn't equate some shady shit. It was 300,000 tons of scrap metal, and only around 100,000 tons were shipped off to asia. Here is a quote from bloomberg on it


"If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that's in this day and age what computers do," said Bloomberg, a former engineering major. "Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn't tell you anything."
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm


"Most of the recyclable metal at ground zero is being sent to the Fresh Kills Landfill on Staten Island where law enforcement authorities survey the material for evidence. Only then is it released to a scrap processor under an existing long-term contract with the New York City Department of Sanitation to purchase and then recycle scrap metal."

http://www.steel.org/news/innews/pr_prnewswire10_04_01.htm

The steel was examined before it was recycled. It was recycled in Asia because that is where the greatest demand for steel was, of course not all the steel was sent to Asia, a large amount went into the building of the U.S.S. New York.

TomAz
09-16-2008, 02:35 PM
what the hell kind of evidence are they looking for? scraps of the Koran?