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View Full Version : Obama delivers speech to Berlin Germany



faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:09 PM
BERLIN, Germany (CNN) -- Thank you to the citizens of Berlin and to the people of Germany. Let me thank Chancellor Merkel and Foreign Minister Steinmeier for welcoming me earlier today. Thank you Mayor Wowereit, the Berlin Senate, the police, and most of all thank you for this welcome.


I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before. Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen - a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.

I know that I don't look like the Americans who've previously spoken in this great city. The journey that led me here is improbable. My mother was born in the heartland of America, but my father grew up herding goats in Kenya. His father - my grandfather - was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.

At the height of the Cold War, my father decided, like so many others in the forgotten corners of the world, that his yearning - his dream - required the freedom and opportunity promised by the West. And so he wrote letter after letter to universities all across America until somebody, somewhere answered his prayer for a better life.

That is why I'm here. And you are here because you too know that yearning. This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom. And you know that the only reason we stand here tonight is because men and women from both of our nations came together to work, and struggle, and sacrifice for that better life.

Ours is a partnership that truly began sixty years ago this summer, on the day when the first American plane touched down at Templehof.

On that day, much of this continent still lay in ruin. The rubble of this city had yet to be built into a wall. The Soviet shadow had swept across Eastern Europe, while in the West, America, Britain, and France took stock of their losses, and pondered how the world might be remade.

This is where the two sides met. And on the twenty-fourth of June, 1948, the Communists chose to blockade the western part of the city. They cut off food and supplies to more than two million Germans in an effort to extinguish the last flame of freedom in Berlin.

The size of our forces was no match for the much larger Soviet Army. And yet retreat would have allowed Communism to march across Europe. Where the last war had ended, another World War could have easily begun. All that stood in the way was Berlin.

And that's when the airlift began - when the largest and most unlikely rescue in history brought food and hope to the people of this city.

The odds were stacked against success. In the winter, a heavy fog filled the sky above, and many planes were forced to turn back without dropping off the needed supplies. The streets where we stand were filled with hungry families who had no comfort from the cold.

But in the darkest hours, the people of Berlin kept the flame of hope burning. The people of Berlin refused to give up. And on one fall day, hundreds of thousands of Berliners came here, to the Tiergarten, and heard the city's mayor implore the world not to give up on freedom. "There is only one possibility," he said. "For us to stand together united until this battle is won...The people of Berlin have spoken. We have done our duty, and we will keep on doing our duty. People of the world: now do your duty...People of the world, look at Berlin!"

People of the world - look at Berlin!

Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle.

Look at Berlin, where the determination of a people met the generosity of the Marshall Plan and created a German miracle; where a victory over tyranny gave rise to NATO, the greatest alliance ever formed to defend our common security.

Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity.

People of the world - look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one.

Sixty years after the airlift, we are called upon again. History has led us to a new crossroad, with new promise and new peril. When you, the German people, tore down that wall - a wall that divided East and West; freedom and tyranny; fear and hope - walls came tumbling down around the world. From Kiev to Cape Town, prison camps were closed, and the doors of democracy were opened. Markets opened too, and the spread of information and technology reduced barriers to opportunity and prosperity. While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history.

The fall of the Berlin Wall brought new hope. But that very closeness has given rise to new dangers - dangers that cannot be contained within the borders of a country or by the distance of an ocean.

The terrorists of September 11th plotted in Hamburg and trained in Kandahar and Karachi before killing thousands from all over the globe on American soil.

As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya.

Poorly secured nuclear material in the former Soviet Union, or secrets from a scientist in Pakistan could help build a bomb that detonates in Paris. The poppies in Afghanistan become the heroin in Berlin. The poverty and violence in Somalia breeds the terror of tomorrow. The genocide in Darfur shames the conscience of us all.

In this new world, such dangerous currents have swept along faster than our efforts to contain them. That is why we cannot afford to be divided. No one nation, no matter how large or powerful, can defeat such challenges alone. None of us can deny these threats, or escape responsibility in meeting them. Yet, in the absence of Soviet tanks and a terrible wall, it has become easy to forget this truth. And if we're honest with each other, we know that sometimes, on both sides of the Atlantic, we have drifted apart, and forgotten our shared destiny.

In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth - that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe.

Yes, there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt, there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship continue to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington will not lift this burden. In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more - not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity.

That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another.

The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.

We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid.

So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.

That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations - and all nations - must summon that spirit anew.

This is the moment when we must defeat terror and dry up the well of extremism that supports it. This threat is real and we cannot shrink from our responsibility to combat it. If we could create NATO to face down the Soviet Union, we can join in a new and global partnership to dismantle the networks that have struck in Madrid and Amman; in London and Bali; in Washington and New York. If we could win a battle of ideas against the communists, we can stand with the vast majority of Muslims who reject the extremism that leads to hate instead of hope.

This is the moment when we must renew our resolve to rout the terrorists who threaten our security in Afghanistan, and the traffickers who sell drugs on your streets. No one welcomes war. I recognize the enormous difficulties in Afghanistan. But my country and yours have a stake in seeing that NATO's first mission beyond Europe's borders is a success. For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done. America cannot do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops; our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now.

This is the moment when we must renew the goal of a world without nuclear weapons. The two superpowers that faced each other across the wall of this city came too close too often to destroying all we have built and all that we love. With that wall gone, we need not stand idly by and watch the further spread of the deadly atom. It is time to secure all loose nuclear materials; to stop the spread of nuclear weapons; and to reduce the arsenals from another era. This is the moment to begin the work of seeking the peace of a world without nuclear weapons.

This is the moment when every nation in Europe must have the chance to choose its own tomorrow free from the shadows of yesterday. In this century, we need a strong European Union that deepens the security and prosperity of this continent, while extending a hand abroad. In this century - in this city of all cities - we must reject the Cold War mind-set of the past, and resolve to work with Russia when we can, to stand up for our values when we must, and to seek a partnership that extends across this entire continent.

This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development. But we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few, and not the many. Together, we must forge trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth, with meaningful protections for our people and our planet. This is the moment for trade that is free and fair for all.

This is the moment we must help answer the call for a new dawn in the Middle East. My country must stand with yours and with Europe in sending a direct message to Iran that it must abandon its nuclear ambitions. We must support the Lebanese who have marched and bled for democracy, and the Israelis and Palestinians who seek a secure and lasting peace. And despite past differences, this is the moment when the world should support the millions of Iraqis who seek to rebuild their lives, even as we pass responsibility to the Iraqi government and finally bring this war to a close.

This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet. Let us resolve that we will not leave our children a world where the oceans rise and famine spreads and terrible storms devastate our lands. Let us resolve that all nations - including my own - will act with the same seriousness of purpose as has your nation, and reduce the carbon we send into our atmosphere. This is the moment to give our children back their future. This is the moment to stand as one.

And this is the moment when we must give hope to those left behind in a globalized world. We must remember that the Cold War born in this city was not a battle for land or treasure. Sixty years ago, the planes that flew over Berlin did not drop bombs; instead they delivered food, and coal, and candy to grateful children. And in that show of solidarity, those pilots won more than a military victory. They won hearts and minds; love and loyalty and trust - not just from the people in this city, but from all those who heard the story of what they did here.

Now the world will watch and remember what we do here - what we do with this moment. Will we extend our hand to the people in the forgotten corners of this world who yearn for lives marked by dignity and opportunity; by security and justice? Will we lift the child in Bangladesh from poverty, shelter the refugee in Chad, and banish the scourge of AIDS in our time?

Will we stand for the human rights of the dissident in Burma, the blogger in Iran, or the voter in Zimbabwe? Will we give meaning to the words "never again" in Darfur?

Will we acknowledge that there is no more powerful example than the one each of our nations projects to the world? Will we reject torture and stand for the rule of law? Will we welcome immigrants from different lands, and shun discrimination against those who don't look like us or worship like we do, and keep the promise of equality and opportunity for all of our people?

People of Berlin - people of the world - this is our moment. This is our time.

I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.

But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived - at great cost and great sacrifice - to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world. Our allegiance has never been to any particular tribe or kingdom - indeed, every language is spoken in our country; every culture has left its imprint on ours; every point of view is expressed in our public squares. What has always united us - what has always driven our people; what drew my father to America's shores - is a set of ideals that speak to aspirations shared by all people: that we can live free from fear and free from want; that we can speak our minds and assemble with whomever we choose and worship as we please.

Those are the aspirations that joined the fates of all nations in this city. Those aspirations are bigger than anything that drives us apart. It is because of those aspirations that the airlift began. It is because of those aspirations that all free people - everywhere - became citizens of Berlin. It is in pursuit of those aspirations that a new generation - our generation - must make our mark on history.

People of Berlin - and people of the world - the scale of our challenge is great. The road ahead will be long. But I come before you to say that we are heirs to a struggle for freedom. We are a people of improbable hope. Let us build on our common history, and seize our common destiny, and once again engage in that noble struggle to bring justice and peace to our world.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 12:13 PM
since when do presidential hopefulls go to berlin to make speeches?! this is so strange to me.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 12:14 PM
since when do presidential hopefulls go to berlin to make speeches?! this is so strange to me.

Since we finally have a presidential hopeful who actually wants the rest of the world to like us. =)

Shame he'll never win.

thinnerair
07-24-2008, 12:18 PM
he 'll win, but he wont last.

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 12:19 PM
The Europeans LOVE him. The news said 200,000 people attended this speech.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Care to wager on that one? I'm half gay for the guy. I am so in love with his knowledge of government and history. The guy is a brilliant writer and can deliver a diplomatic yet stern speech like nobodies business. He's got the critics laughing at him for great american attributes like hope, promise and change but when it comes down to it, he's effective because he makes you believe it.

When was the last time we had a politician who we were proud of representing us as citizens overseas? Honstly, I was a huge fan of Bill Clinton but in retrospect, he was a used car salesman too. Obama is inspiring and gives genuine hope to our future. No politician has ever come close to giving me inspiration as this guy. I'm more willing than ever to help in any way I can. It may sound cheesy but this guy rocks.

On that note i'm awaiting my shirt from The National that has his face on it and says Mr. November.

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 12:20 PM
He won't win if he keeps going over seas and changing his mind on key issues

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:22 PM
he 'll win, but he wont last.


Sure he will. :) Especially if he chooses Hillary as a running mate. The only thing worse to a redneck racist than a half black is a women who should be in the kitchen. Honestly, every president has a target on them. President Ronald Reagan the most popular president of my lifetime was shot at and he was a white actor. Simply having the title makes you a target and i'm not convinced Obama is any more of a target than anyone else. Look at how hated Bush was? No one took a shot at him.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:23 PM
He won't win if he keeps going over seas and changing his mind on key issues


Everyone changes their mind when situations change especially if we are talking about war.

canexplain
07-24-2008, 12:23 PM
yikes, red letter day, I agree with Randy 100 percent, or how they say on those reality shows, 1 million percent (lame) ....x****

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:24 PM
since when do presidential hopefulls go to berlin to make speeches?! this is so strange to me.

It is a bit strange. In each of these stops he seems to be treated more and more presidential. I mean look at that crowd. Crazy. I have a conservative friend that calls him the Obamamessiah because his fanatics are so dedicated and act like he's the 2nd coming. lol

locachica73
07-24-2008, 12:25 PM
I agree with you on this one faxman. I have never been very interested in voting or even listening to the candidates until now. I think the US is ready for a change and Obama is the only one offering up any change.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:26 PM
I simply can't see McCain winning. I would be so depressed. I need to move to Prague, i couldn't handle any more old white politicians who are hard asses and insistant on ruling the world.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 12:27 PM
It is a bit strange. In each of these stops he seems to be treated more and more presidential. I mean look at that crowd. Crazy. I have a conservative friend that calls him the Obamamessiah because his fanatics are so dedicated and act like he's the 2nd coming. lol

i guess that's why it's strange. no one even acknolwedges mccain. and the primaries aren't officially over yet, are they? we haven't even had the convention. it just seems strange.

i'm leery of obama. i worry about the warren harding effect.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 12:27 PM
Care to wager on that one? I'm half gay for the guy. I am so in love with his knowledge of government and history. The guy is a brilliant writer and can deliver a diplomatic yet stern speech like nobodies business. He's got the critics laughing at him for great american attributes like hope, promise and change but when it comes down to it, he's effective because he makes you believe it.

When was the last time we had a politician who we were proud of representing us as citizens overseas? Honstly, I was a huge fan of Bill Clinton but in retrospect, he was a used car salesman too. Obama is inspiring and gives genuine hope to our future. No politician has ever come close to giving me inspiration as this guy. I'm more willing than ever to help in any way I can. It may sound cheesy but this guy rocks.

On that note i'm awaiting my shirt from The National that has his face on it and says Mr. November.

I'll bet you 1000 that he doesn't win. That way, no matter what the outcome, I'll be happy. But he won't, sorry. I told you all not to underestimate American racist fear.

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 12:29 PM
Everyone changes their mind when situations change especially if we are talking about war.

I was more so talking about gun control, and cruel and unusual punishment for child sex offenders. It's no the war it's him trying to get the middle vote and it will blow up in his face just like it did for Kerry

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:29 PM
I agree with you on this one faxman. I have never been very interested in voting or even listening to the candidates until now. I think the US is ready for a change and Obama is the only one offering up any change.

That's why those Hillary die hards claiming they would vote for McCain are retarded and full of shit. How is McCain the better choice on the issues for them? It's silly. People want healthcare, people are sick of us trying to push our policies, radars and troops on the rest of the world, we want a true leader and a representative we can be proud of and Obama fits the bill. :D

Who wants the old white guy with the temper who has been smiling with Bush and isn't all that different from Bush?

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 12:30 PM
I'll accept him trying to get the middle vote just as long as he swings back to the left after elected. :thu

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:31 PM
I'll bet you 1000 that he doesn't win. That way, no matter what the outcome, I'll be happy. But he won't, sorry. I told you all not to underestimate American racist fear.


I would take that bet but I don't have a grand to put up. Come up with something reasonable. Maybe something along the lines of loser buys winner Coachella tickets and camping next year. :D

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 12:31 PM
That's why those Hillary die hards claiming they would vote for McCain are retarded and full of shit. How is McCain the better choice on the issues for them?


because democrats are just as retarded as republicans :p

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:33 PM
I was more so talking about gun control, and cruel and unusual punishment for child sex offenders. It's no the war it's him trying to get the middle vote and it will blow up in his face just like it did for Kerry

What's the cruel and unusual punishment for sex offenders?

Guns are a tough call. Americans love their fucking guns and I will never understand it. I know tons of liberals that love their guns too.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:34 PM
because democrats are just as retarded as republicans :p

Absolutely. At the end of the day it's a retard nation.

Hopeless Semantic
07-24-2008, 12:35 PM
Absolutely. At the end of the day it's a retard nation.

EDIT: It is a retarded world...

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 12:36 PM
What's the cruel and unusual punishment for sex offenders?

He wants the death penalty for child rapists and on a personal level I can kinda agree it still is cruel and unusual punishment

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 12:36 PM
I would take that bet but I don't have a grand to put up. Come up with something reasonable. Maybe something along the lines of loser buys winner Coachella tickets and camping next year. :D

That works for me.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:36 PM
I haven't seen even half of it yet to make that assumption. lol

locachica73
07-24-2008, 12:38 PM
He wants the death penalty for child rapists

And that is a problem? they give the death penalty for people who take anothers life, child rapists do more then take a life, they take the innocents of a child and ruin the rest of that childs life in the process. There is no rehabilitation for sex offenders.

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 12:40 PM
And that is a problem? they give the death penalty for people who take anothers life, child rapists do more then take a life, they take the innocents of a child and ruin the rest of that childs life in the process. There is no rehabilitation for sex offenders.

Like I said on a personal level I agree but it goes against the constitution so I can't agree on a legal stand point

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:42 PM
He wants the death penalty for child rapists and on a personal level I can kinda agree it still is cruel and unusual punishment

So you have a problem with putting someone to death who rapes a small child?

I don't. I would think that is much more justified than someone who gets the death penalty for murdering their spouse or the person their spouse cheated on them with. That's pure revenge, emotional killing from possibly a normally rational person who reacted in the heat of the moment.

There are no rational people raping 6 or 8 year olds. I side with Obama on this. Though he has no power on this issue, it would take the state and the supreme court to do anything anyway. I would think this is pretty much a non factor in deciding on a leader.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 12:43 PM
I would think this is pretty much a non factor in deciding on a leader.

i would also think that whether or not someone where's a lapel pin is a non factor in deciding a leader, but i apparently am wrong on that one too.

oh popular vote, will you ever learn?!

locachica73
07-24-2008, 12:44 PM
In my oppinion that made me want to vote for him even more. Being a survivor of abuse I think that anyone who hurts a child should serve life in prison and get whatever anyone gives them as retribution.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:44 PM
Like I said on a personal level I agree but it goes against the constitution so I can't agree on a legal stand point

Blacks being counted as people and women being allowed to vote were both against the constitution as well. However they created some ammendments.

Exactly where in the constitution is killing child rapists said to be a bad thing by the way, i'm far from a constitution expert.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 12:45 PM
i would also think that whether or not someone where's a lapel pin is a non factor in deciding a leader, but i apparently am wrong on that one too.

oh popular vote, will you ever learn?!


Well what about a terrorist fist thump?

JustSteve
07-24-2008, 12:50 PM
is america ready to have a "baby-mama" in the white house, too?

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 12:54 PM
I agree with you if anyone layed a hand on my kid I'd kill him/her. It still is cruel and unusual punishment do you agree with what's going on in guantanamo? The voting rights thing isn't even close to the same and you know it. This is the problem with liberals you all complain about you're civil rights being taken away they're not, you people just give them away cause you let emotion intervene with rationality.

Any how it's just an opinion everyone is entitled to their own my point is if we that happens where will it stop kinda like the wire tapping that everyone is just letting happen where will it all end

locachica73
07-24-2008, 12:59 PM
So if a man kills someone in the heat of the moment or out of revenge and there is a chance for rehabilitation they can get the death penalty but a man who has planned out the rape of a child, who probably started out with molestation and then advanced to rape, who will never be rehabilitated, he should live out his days to fantasize and replay the rape in his head over and over, and then possibly be released?

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 01:01 PM
i'd never done a crazy thing in my life before that night. why is it if a man kills another man in battle, it's called heroic, yet if he kills a man in the heat of passion, it's called murder?

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:02 PM
+10

Blinken
07-24-2008, 01:07 PM
I think all child rapists should be killed, but according to the recent Supreme Court decision it is Cruel and Unusual punishment. The decision boiled down to the fact that since the child was not killed we can't kill the rapist. This was said for a couple reasons one is that if the penalty for killing the rape victim is the same as not killing the kid, then the criminal will be more likely to kill the kid because why leave him behind to identify you. The other part is that it would set a precident in our legal system where you can be put to death for a crime that does not involve murder. Say what you will but that is a scary precident to be setting.

menikmati
07-24-2008, 01:08 PM
i'd never done a crazy thing in my life before that night. why is it if a man kills another man in battle, it's called heroic, yet if he kills a man in the heat of passion, it's called murder?

There's a difference from being at war and killing someone during some argument/fight you're having.

locachica73
07-24-2008, 01:09 PM
ok I guess I didn't think about it like that, maybe it is too personal of an issue for me. Life in prison will due just fine then, and then they can get gang raped by the prisoners up until the day they hang themselves.

zenidogx
07-24-2008, 01:11 PM
this had to be posted
B2oSdEVTYOU

stinkbutt
07-24-2008, 01:11 PM
That's fine by me since studies have shown it's impossible for child sex offenders to be rehabilitated

in re to loca

menikmati
07-24-2008, 01:12 PM
ok I guess I didn't think about it like that, maybe it is too personal of an issue for me. Life in prison will due just fine then, and then they can get gang raped by the prisoners up until the day they hang themselves.

In most cases, the death penalty is life in prison.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 01:12 PM
There's a difference from being at war and killing someone during some argument/fight you're having.

tell that to ed o'neil in wayne's world :p

and i agree, blinken. i hate the rabid mob mentality people have against sexual crimes against children. yes, they are sick fucks. SICK being the key word. i have a friend from childhood who i would say is a pedophile. and he ALWAYS has been. when we did theatre together as kids, he was 15 hitting on 11 year olds. i gave him shit then and i give him shit now when i see him (which i obviously try to avoid). he simply doesn't get it though. i've tried for years to explain the situation, and he litterally does not comprehend why it's wrong. he knows it's wrong and he has to hide it, but he doesn't get WHY and that's the scary part.

you have to apply those laws to other types of crimes to see if it makes sense. i mean, addicts aren't really ever "rehabilitated" either, should we put them to death too?

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:14 PM
Also, at what age does statutory rape become an executable offense exactly? 14? 12? 10? Where?

Hopeless Semantic
07-24-2008, 01:15 PM
For the most part, people convicted of child rape and other lewd crimes towards children are housed in special areas of the prison. That doesn't ensure their total protection and while I don't believe it to be totally right, prison yard justice does often times find its way to the child molestors/rapists.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:18 PM
Seriously. You don't need the death penalty to handle sex offenders, believe me--prison ain't no kinda fun for them.

Plus I'm more of an eye for an eye kinda person if we're gonna go corporal. Killing for rape does seems a bit weird, although in my personal life if someone does that to someone close to me I feel they should die. But not at the hands of the state.

Letting them get beaten, raped, and possibly murdered in prison works when that solution can't be activated.

locachica73
07-24-2008, 01:18 PM
in most cases addicts are only hurting themselves, and the other crimes they commit in order to feed their habit are punishable by law. Child molesters pleasure themselves at a childs expense, in turn ruining that childs life forever. I will never be the same bright eyed optimist I use to be due to my childhood and for that I wish the man responsible had been punished. People who kill others do so out of anger, hurt, revenge in most cases, other then serial killers who actually get some sick pleasure out of murdering others. Child molesters commit horrible crimes only to pleasure their own sick and twisted needs.

menikmati
07-24-2008, 01:18 PM
just watch Lockdown: Raw on MSNBC.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:19 PM
Except the gang rape thing isn't as common as we would all like to believe.

I have a solution for the overpopulated prisons and those that don't want the death penalty for sex offenders.

Step one, clean up the sex offender law. You should not be a sex offender for taking a piss in an alley. A $50 fine is adequate there. Next you take all these sex offenders that may or may not have registered which is a silly thing to begin with and you lock them all up in prison. Next you release every non violent drug criminal. A simple swap. let the druggies go and box up the rapists.

BlackSwan
07-24-2008, 01:20 PM
I think the US is ready for a change and Obama is the only one offering up any change.

yea... change, totally... his skin color will be brown instead of white.

locachica73
07-24-2008, 01:22 PM
yea... change, totally... his skin color will be brown instead of white.

And hopefully he will actually be working for the people and not just to line his own pockets and feed his own ego.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:22 PM
Except the gang rape thing isn't as common as we would all like to believe.

FOR PEDOPHILES? Are you serious? Dude, I've known a lot of cats that have been locked up and not a one of them would say that pedophiles don't get fucking cruel and unusual punishment THOROUGHLY.

If you're talking about the old fable that they just rape everybody who comes through, well, yes, you're correct. But pedophiles get FUCKED UP.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:23 PM
To bad you all can't come read a bunch of these lifetime probation case files with me.

The problem is sex offenders don't often go to jail for life either. They get lifetime probation and serve a really small amount of jailtime in comparison to life. I think a child molestor deserves much stricter punishment than someone who has a kilo of cocain in their trunk.

BlackSwan
07-24-2008, 01:24 PM
And hopefully he will actually be working for the people and not just to line his own pockets and feed his own ego.

you should like, learn history and stuff... lots of presidential candidates have run on the idea of "CHANGE!" and a "A new kind of politics!"... thing is... it's still politics.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:25 PM
FOR PEDOPHILES? Are you serious? Dude, I've known a lot of cats that have been locked up and not a one of them would say that pedophiles don't get fucking cruel and unusual punishment THOROUGHLY.

If you're talking about the old fable that they just rape everybody who comes through, well, yes, you're correct. But pedophiles get FUCKED UP.

I would like to see a stat on that lol. Truely. What percentage do you think? Don't you think word doesn't always get around as well, like maybe they lie about why they are inside? Especially if they aren't in there all that long.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:27 PM
The average molestor serves three years by the way.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:29 PM
To bad you all can't come read a bunch of these lifetime probation case files with me.

The problem is sex offenders don't often go to jail for life either. They get lifetime probation and serve a really small amount of jailtime in comparison to life. I think a child molestor deserves much stricter punishment than someone who has a kilo of cocain in their trunk.

That's a very different issue. Letting them off with probation is certainly a mistake. In general I think probation is handed out way too frequently. I know people that have gotten busted four times for drugs and never served time and as staunchly against drug laws as I am... fuck, if you're too dumb to stop fucking up after the third time you need to go away.


I would like to see a stat on that lol. Truely. What percentage do you think? Don't you think word doesn't always get around as well, like maybe they lie about why they are inside? Especially if they aren't in there all that long.

You don't really get to just lie about why you're in there. And COs generally find a way to make it known who the pedos are.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:37 PM
My dad was a CO and he used it as leverage. It kept people well behaved. I always though it weird how friendly he was with the inmates. He used to trade CD's and VHS movies with them all the time back in the late 80's early 90's.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 01:39 PM
Well, most prisons are kinda run by the inmates in a way. If they really want to riot they can fucking do it, very few facilities are set up in any way that order isn't maintained thanks to the compliance of the inmates to an extent. Why not be friendly with them? You might be on the other side of the billyclub some day.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 01:43 PM
True enough and CO's make shit money.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 01:45 PM
in most cases addicts are only hurting themselves, and the other crimes they commit in order to feed their habit are punishable by law. Child molesters pleasure themselves at a childs expense, in turn ruining that childs life forever. I will never be the same bright eyed optimist I use to be due to my childhood and for that I wish the man responsible had been punished. People who kill others do so out of anger, hurt, revenge in most cases, other then serial killers who actually get some sick pleasure out of murdering others. Child molesters commit horrible crimes only to pleasure their own sick and twisted needs.

*hugs to loca*

i'm so sorry to hear that :(

as someone who's been through something similar in high school, i have to say that them being alive or dead doesn't change the fact that we're royally fucked in the head as a result of this. it's fucked, but i don't know that death is really the solution. the only thing it does do is provide the reassurance you'll never have to look them in the face again. i avoid certain areas of the wesside soley for this reason, lol.

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 01:54 PM
He wants the death penalty for child rapists and on a personal level I can kinda agree it still is cruel and unusual punishment
That's fucked up. I'm against the death penalty in all cases anyway, but that's over the line.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:10 PM
See, i'm against it in all cases as well but I don't follow how this is over the line unless it's all over the line. To me this is worse than just about every other crime. Note the just about part, not trying to squibble over other obvious heinous crimes.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:16 PM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j229/veggiejen2000/881.jpg

Down Rodeo
07-24-2008, 02:19 PM
The death penalty should be abolished. It's fucking barbaric.

locachica73
07-24-2008, 02:19 PM
*hugs to loca*

i'm so sorry to hear that :(

as someone who's been through something similar in high school, i have to say that them being alive or dead doesn't change the fact that we're royally fucked in the head as a result of this. it's fucked, but i don't know that death is really the solution. the only thing it does do is provide the reassurance you'll never have to look them in the face again. i avoid certain areas of the wesside soley for this reason, lol.

aww, thank you, and hugs back. :)

Them being dead or locked up forever would keep it from happening to another child. It is a horrible thing to know that the man who ruined your childhood went on to have his own children, little girls to boot. And the not seeing his face, that never happens, he will always show up in the bad dreams. So revenge is always a plus. :)

gaypalmsprings
07-24-2008, 02:21 PM
http://athomedetective.com/sitebuilder/images/mlk-218x295.jpg

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 02:23 PM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j229/veggiejen2000/881.jpg

if nothing else, obama has inspired some awesome photoshops, lol.

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:24 PM
Obama lost my support with FISA and his recent comments about Iran.

Young blood
07-24-2008, 02:24 PM
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii94/TheWalkingDude/1214143227150.jpg

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:24 PM
I'm for life imprisonment for the pedophile sex offenders...as long as they free up the space by letting the non-violent drug offenders go free.

Young blood
07-24-2008, 02:24 PM
NOOOOOoooo!

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:25 PM
I admit I was somewhat upset over FISA.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:25 PM
Obama lost my support with FISA and his recent comments about Iran.

Esplain? I try to avoid news.

Young blood
07-24-2008, 02:26 PM
I admit I was somewhat upset over FISA.

I was just upset my bandwith is exceeded and its telling me to upgrade to pro version.

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:27 PM
equally upsetting.

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 02:27 PM
I was just upset my bandwith is exceeded and its telling me to upgrade to pro version.

if only we could get a candidate behind this pressing issue!

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:28 PM
ok I guess I didn't think about it like that, maybe it is too personal of an issue for me. Life in prison will due just fine then, and then they can get gang raped by the prisoners up until the day they hang themselves.

wow. bitterness sounds like the real issue here to me.

gaypalmsprings
07-24-2008, 02:30 PM
http://www.caffeinemarketing.com/images/11-03-06.jpg

Blinken
07-24-2008, 02:32 PM
Obama voted for the FISA bill that gave immunity to the telecom companies for the illegal wiretapping done by the bush administration. The bill also included more oversight on our intelligence community specifically wiretapping.

He reversed his original position because the bill was changed to include much oversight. Which i think is a fair stance because anything that didn't give immunity would not be signed by Bush and he would just keep doing whatever the fuck he wanted. Was the bill perfect? Hell no!!! But is not the end of the world like everyone makes it out to be.

Young blood
07-24-2008, 02:32 PM
RON PAUL!

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 02:33 PM
RON PAUL!

fuck ron paul. he can stay the fuck out of my vag and stop trying to be such an isolationist... then we'll talk.

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:33 PM
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd253/deathmetalgirl666/Obama.jpg

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
What about Iran?

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm for life imprisonment for the pedophile sex offenders...as long as they free up the space by letting the non-violent drug offenders go free.


Ahh so we are in absolute agreement :)

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Esplain? I try to avoid news.

FISA (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/my-position-on-fisa_b_110789.html)

Iran (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/23/barackobama.israelandthepalestinians)

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:34 PM
http://www.photoshoptalent.com/images/contests/computer%20takeover/fullsize/computer%20takeover_480ef1490ce10.jpg
I like this one.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:37 PM
FISA (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/my-position-on-fisa_b_110789.html)

Iran (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/23/barackobama.israelandthepalestinians)

Ok, i'll start with Iran. Who in their right mind would want Iran to get a nuke? I have no issues with using diplomacy, multinational talks and so on and so forth with Iran. If they get a Nuke, by by Israel and anyone else who sides with Israel. There is no doubt in my mind they will destroy every jew they possibly can and that's fucked up and if that means we need to whatever it takes to stop Iran from getting nukes, then i'm on board for that. Iran is a threat.

locachica73
07-24-2008, 02:39 PM
wow. bitterness sounds like the real issue here to me.

probably

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:40 PM
Ok, i'll start with Iran. Who in their right mind would want Iran to get a nuke? I have no issues with using diplomacy, multinational talks and so on and so forth with Iran. If they get a Nuke, by by Israel and anyone else who sides with Israel. There is no doubt in my mind they will destroy every jew they possibly can and that's fucked up and if that means we need to whatever it takes to stop Iran from getting nukes, then i'm on board for that. Iran is a threat.

My issue isn't concern over Iran getting a nuke. It's this "Iran is a threat" attitude that is exactly the wrong kind of rhetoric to be relying on at this point in time.

I'm also opposed to his Israeli slant, but that's not the center of this issue. It's not that I disagree with concern about Iran, it's the attitude and delivery that I find incredibly destructive towards diplomatic efforts.

You seem to be victim to this same kind of hyperbole... Who do you mean by "they?" Every jew? Have you spent much time in Iran or any other Islamic country?

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
i'm generally opposed to the "people who have nukes that aren't us = a threat" argument.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:41 PM
I love these assumptions where the Muslims will launch the first attack against Israel. It's gonna be the other way around, people.

Wanna know the only real solution to the issue? EVERYBODY has to have nukes. That's the truth. But, look, if you're giving a speech in Israel and you're running against McCain, you can't really take a weak attitude towards letting a Muslim nation getting nukes. There's no fucking way he'll get elected that way and the Jews will flip a shit. Preventing Iran from getting nukes probably isn't a horrible idea, and I trust that Obama would have a smarter way of doing it.

But how Obama feels is pretty irrelevant--Israel will fucking wipe that place to shit if they think they're being threatened.

Blinken
07-24-2008, 02:42 PM
If he wants to get elected he has to have an Israeli slant, can't get elected without the help of the jewish population.

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:43 PM
So why give a speech in Israel?

Why seemingly support what is essentially a terrorist state?

amyzzz
07-24-2008, 02:43 PM
More like, NO ONE gets nukes.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:44 PM
Now as far as FISA goes this is a bit more tricky. The key to Obama's support of this bill is the independantly monitored aspect. It may or may not help prevent the deaths of many americans in the future in a terror attack.

Now if this somehow lead to an abuse of power and we started arresting americans for crimes not related to terrorism based on listening in to phone calls and internet transmissions and ultimately turned into a big brother state, then I would have an issue. i understand the distrust believe me I do. This bill certainly doesn't make me comfortable but it certainly won't cause me to vote for John McCain. In fact John McCain didn't show up for the last FISA vote from what I understand so he certainly isn't the better choice. Obama made a tough choice and went against the base on an issue that McCain didn't even show up and vote for.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:46 PM
So why give a speech in Israel?

Why seemingly support what is essentially a terrorist state?

Because Israel is a big deal. Why shouldn't he be establishing diplomatic relations with Israel too? And look, the creation of the Israeli state was fucked up and wrong and possibly the mistake that will cause WWIII, but let's not discount the fact that they minded their own business for many decades only becoming violent when swarmed in several sneak attacks by several of their neighboring nations in union. They have the right to be a bit paranoid, even if they are a bunch of war-mongering kike cocksuckers.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:47 PM
More like, NO ONE gets nukes.

It'll never work. The technology is out. You can't just rewind history, Amy. Mutually assured destruction is the only way to establish equilibrium.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:48 PM
I love these assumptions where the Muslims will launch the first attack against Israel. It's gonna be the other way around, people.

Assumptions? I think it's based on the perfectly clear rhetoric of their president who wants them wiped off the face of the earth.



Wanna know the only real solution to the issue? EVERYBODY has to have nukes. That's the truth.

Enter the darth vadar music....back to the cold war we go.


But, look, if you're giving a speech in Israel and you're running against McCain, you can't really take a weak attitude towards letting a Muslim nation getting nukes. There's no fucking way he'll get elected that way and the Jews will flip a shit. Preventing Iran from getting nukes probably isn't a horrible idea, and I trust that Obama would have a smarter way of doing it.

This I agree with. Need we quote all the rhetoric from that madman in Iran? I think not. They want another holocaust. Plain and simple. It would be good to make sure they can't make that happen.



But how Obama feels is pretty irrelevant--Israel will fucking wipe that place to shit if they think they're being threatened.

True, though they have and are being threatened. I might take an actual parade and celebration displaying their pretty new nuke and pointing in the direction of Zion before they react.

Newro7ic
07-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Now as far as FISA goes this is a bit more tricky. The key to Obama's support of this bill is the independantly monitored aspect. It may or may not help prevent the deaths of many americans in the future in a terror attack.

Now if this somehow lead to an abuse of power and we started arresting americans for crimes not related to terrorism based on listening in to phone calls and internet transmissions and ultimately turned into a big brother state, then I would have an issue. i understand the distrust believe me I do. This bill certainly doesn't make me comfortable but it certainly won't cause me to vote for John McCain. In fact John McCain didn't show up for the last FISA vote from what I understand so he certainly isn't the better choice. Obama made a tough choice and went against the base on an issue that McCain didn't even show up and vote for.

Mccain hasn't shown up to vote for anything since April.

FISA was a huge blunder on Obama's part. I know why he did it, and while he hasn't lost my support, I am keeping a closer eye on what he does. Of course, I'm just one person.

As for Iran... Obama's position hasn't changed at all, as far as I can tell. It's no secret that Iran is a threat in the middle-east. They have always had an aggressive attitude. However, Obama has always said he is willing to sit down and talk with Iran. Mccain does not agree with this. He sees Iran as a threat and believes military action is required.

Which is worse?

EDIT: this isn't all directed at you, fax... just didn't feel like multi-quoting. :)

chairmenmeow47
07-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Enter the darth vadar music....back to the cold war we go.

the war machine is already here. and did we not learn ANYTHING from iraq and this whole "WMD" BULLSHIT?! i wish our administration would just admit they are imperialistic bastards instead of using all this "OMFG TEH NUKES" bullshit.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:53 PM
So why give a speech in Israel?

Why seemingly support what is essentially a terrorist state?


Because we are a terrorist state?

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:53 PM
EDIT: this isn't all directed at you, fax... just didn't feel like multi-quoting. :)

No worries i'm following what you're saying. ;)

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:54 PM
Assumptions? I think it's based on the perfectly clear rhetoric of their president who wants them wiped off the face of the earth.

This I agree with. Need we quote all the rhetoric from that madman in Iran? I think not. They want another holocaust. Plain and simple. It would be good to make sure they can't make that happen.

This is why I hate Americans.

Hey Fax, what exactly in Iran's history do you cite as evidence of them being such dangerous warmongering people? "They want another holocaust. Plain and simple." Right. Plain and simple. If you're a fucking asshole.

WE'RE the ones who exiled their brothers from the land they had rightfully settled without good cause. WE created a nation just to serve as a military base so we could spend the next fifty years meddling in the affairs of a part of the world that has never wanted anything but to be left to their own devices and insulate themselves from other cultures.

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:54 PM
for the record, Obama losing my support does not mean I will vote for McCain...

gaypalmsprings
07-24-2008, 02:55 PM
http://www.rubbercat.net/doodles/nancy_funnymovie.jpg

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 02:56 PM
Because we are a terrorist state?

And Obama feels compelled to tie himself to this... exactly why I have no interest in supporting him.

I agree with Randy's above response as well.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 02:57 PM
the war machine is already here. and did we not learn ANYTHING from iraq and this whole "WMD" BULLSHIT?! i wish our administration would just admit they are imperialistic bastards instead of using all this "OMFG TEH NUKES" bullshit.

Agreed but from the begining I and many others felt the threats were Iran and N. Korea. N. Korea not so much as their crazy has simmered but at the end of the day Kim Jong Ill and Mouhajamadeen (of course my spelling is ridiculous on both of these) are both insane and when insane people actually have WMD that's a problem. Our intellegence isn't sketchy on these two countries. Iraq was a different story. We know what Iran and N. Korea are doing and we certainly know Iran's intentions as they keep screaming their hate from the mountain top.

Blinken
07-24-2008, 02:57 PM
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/ZforHill/obamawhiteydown.jpg

PassiveTheory
07-24-2008, 02:58 PM
There is no way that Barack Obama wins this. Capitalist white supremacist patriarchy won't allow for a black man to run the show. At best he'll have to sell his blackness completely and turn into an empty wolf in sheep's clothing.

The mark of a REAL change in what a politician is when I see someone possess a differing opinion concerning the Middle East crisis: essentially a politician who doesn't blatantly fucking back the military state of Israel while promoting some absolutely fucking shallow foreign policy of "oh, we're going to talk to the bad guys, too."

Otherwise, there isn't a single goddamn bit of difference between Obama and McCain. They're both bought by big business, special interest groups have both men in their pockets, and neither is going to do even HALF of the shit they intend on doing (or at least Obama wouldn't, McCain seems to be fully committed to plunging our country further into hell with no real solutions on the economic OR social level).

But the sad thing is, of the two, I think McCain is more honest. Sadly, the way he wants to honestly take this country is pretty fucking nightmarish. Obama sounds like someone you can throw your vote behind, but in the end he's all shine and no substance.

It's sorta like a classic superhero/supervillain showdown. Except you've got villain in McCain who isn't compromising anything that wouldn't already be expected to be compromised (stance on torture, the war, the christian right, every single other fucking moderate policy he used to embody 8 years ago that's gone out the fucking window) up against a guy who's this symbol of hope and freedom and social advancement in Obama who's beginning to compromise the things that made him so likable in the first place.

I'm with Randy, there's no way Obama makes it into the White House, ESPECIALLY if he chooses Hilary Clinton as his running mate.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:58 PM
They're not insane. Stop saying that. And you have absolutely no fucking clue what the quality of our "intelligence" on these countries is. Please produce some quotes of this screaming hate from the mountain top. I'd be more than happy to respond to anything you find with equally dangerous comments from the heads of our nation and Israel as well.

This is why our country are assholes.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 02:59 PM
Passive, please just shut the fuck up. You've proven yourself to be completely dense in these matters before. Just shut the fuck up.

Down Rodeo
07-24-2008, 02:59 PM
But, look, if you're giving a speech in Israel and you're running against McCain, you can't really take a weak attitude towards letting a Muslim nation getting nukes. There's no fucking way he'll get elected that way and the Jews will flip a shit. Preventing Iran from getting nukes probably isn't a horrible idea, and I trust that Obama would have a smarter way of doing it.


I agree with this. I think Obama's trying to walk a really fine line here between appearing objective and diplomatic and not looking unsupportive of Israel. He may think differently in private, but he has to satisfy the motherfuckers in AIPAC if he has any chance at getting elected, and that's the sad truth. Hopefully, he would take a more dispassionate stance as President.

PassiveTheory
07-24-2008, 03:00 PM
Half the reason I post here is to plague you with my existence.

EDIT: Also, this country will NEVER elect anyone who takes a middle stance on the Mid-East conflict.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:01 PM
This is why I hate Americans.

Hey Fax, what exactly in Iran's history do you cite as evidence of them being such dangerous warmongering people? "They want another holocaust. Plain and simple." Right. Plain and simple. If you're a fucking asshole.

I said nothing about their "people" being dangerous and war mongering. I speak of their leader. You know this.



WE'RE the ones who exiled their brothers from the land they had rightfully settled without good cause. WE created a nation just to serve as a military base so we could spend the next fifty years meddling in the affairs of a part of the world that has never wanted anything but to be left to their own devices and insulate themselves from other cultures.

Of course we are and of course we did. It seems we are no longer seperating government from its people though. I agree with you but at the end of the day I don't want Israel turned into a glass parking lot. Nor do I want Iran turned into one and i'm not too happy about how many lives we wasted in Iraq.

I love americans and my country. My leaders haven't always done the best with their foreign policies though.

Newro7ic
07-24-2008, 03:02 PM
There is no way that Barack Obama wins this. Capitalist white supremacist patriarchy won't allow for a black man to run the show. At best he'll have to sell his blackness completely and turn into an empty wolf in sheep's clothing.

The mark of a REAL change in what a politician is when I see someone possess a differing opinion concerning the Middle East crisis: essentially a politician who doesn't blatantly fucking back the military state of Israel while promoting some absolutely fucking shallow foreign policy of "oh, we're going to talk to the bad guys, too."

Otherwise, there isn't a single goddamn bit of difference between Obama and McCain. They're both bought by big business, special interest groups have both men in their pockets, and neither is going to do even HALF of the shit they intend on doing (or at least Obama wouldn't, McCain seems to be fully committed to plunging our country further into hell with no real solutions on the economic OR social level).

But the sad thing is, of the two, I think McCain is more honest. Sadly, the way he wants to honestly take this country is pretty fucking nightmarish. Obama sounds like someone you can throw your vote behind, but in the end he's all shine and no substance.

It's sorta like a classic superhero/supervillain showdown. Except you've got villain in McCain who isn't compromising anything that wouldn't already be expected to be compromised (stance on torture, the war, the christian right, every single other fucking moderate policy he used to embody 8 years ago that's gone out the fucking window) up against a guy who's this symbol of hope and freedom and social advancement in Obama who's beginning to compromise the things that made him so likable in the first place.

I'm with Randy, there's no way Obama makes it into the White House, ESPECIALLY if he chooses Hilary Clinton as his running mate.

Mccain lies and changes position on a daily basis. If you don't read the news, please don't respond.

Blinken
07-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Passive, you continue to shock me with your stupidity, well done.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:04 PM
They're not insane. Stop saying that. And you have absolutely no fucking clue what the quality of our "intelligence" on these countries is. Please produce some quotes of this screaming hate from the mountain top. I'd be more than happy to respond to anything you find with equally dangerous comments from the heads of our nation and Israel as well.

This is why our country are assholes.

Well then it turns into a subjective debate doesn't it. Who said harsher words. Why don't you tell me why you don't necessarily think it's a bad idea to keep nukes out of Irans hands but in the same breath you think everyone should have them.

Clarify your stance. I figured you know all the rhetoric but if you really want me to cut and paste the highlites of the hate speeches I can do that as well.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:06 PM
I said nothing about their "people" being dangerous and war mongering. I speak of their leader. You know this.

No, I'm sorry, I don't "know this." I don't swallow everything that's fed to me. If you fucking people understood any of the realities of what happened in that part of the world over the last century or, I dunno.... PAID THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF FUCKING ATTENTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENED IN YOUR OWN LIFETIME maybe you would too.

When has Iran ever mongered war? You think those people want war with Israel? That's the last thing they fucking want. Know why? Because they're not "madmen." They're not "insane." They know full well that they'd get wiped off the fucking map.

I find it hilarious that we, as the single most war hungry nation since Nazi Germany, have the audacity to call the leader of Iran a crazy war monger. Who the fuck did he invade, exactly? Who did he bomb to shreds? What nation did he subjugate to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocents who were no threat to him?

Oh, I'm sorry--that was us.

PassiveTheory
07-24-2008, 03:07 PM
Mccain lies and changes position on a daily basis. If you don't read the news, please don't respond.

You clearly misunderstood me. I know McCain lies, what I'm saying is that it's expected for him to lie and change positions on a daily basis (hence why I brought up how he's forsaken all of his old moderate policies).

The point I'm making is that it's hard to get behind someone who's outwardly honest but is starting to show signs of corruption in Obama when he's up against someone who's outwardly deceitful and shifty in McCain. And it's because of this that McCain is emerging as the most honest candidate because it's expected of him, with his age and all, to be unable to hold a story straight or not even give a damn about keeping his story straight. Why should he, he's a member of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy after all, he doesn't NEED to be honest to win.

Someone like Barack Obama thrives on people buying into the idea that he's honest when it's clear that he's not.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:08 PM
Well then it turns into a subjective debate doesn't it. Who said harsher words. Why don't you tell me why you don't necessarily think it's a bad idea to keep nukes out of Irans hands but in the same breath you think everyone should have them.

Clarify your stance. I figured you know all the rhetoric but if you really want me to cut and paste the highlites of the hate speeches I can do that as well.

That is exactly what I would like. Cause anything he's said, the same has been said in kind by Israel and the US too. Except for the Holocaust questioning, but frankly when you end up being dominated by a tiny Jewish state that has absolutely no business being given your holy land in the name of an atrocity you didn't commit, well, maybe you'd be a little pissed and questioning too.

Down Rodeo
07-24-2008, 03:08 PM
I think Iran legitimately wants nuclear weapons as a deterrent, and frankly, given the history of US and Israeli aggression, I can't hardly blame them. Obviously, that's not a situation the world wants, but it does make a bit of sense.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:09 PM
PASSIVE SHUT THE FUCK UP.

PassiveTheory
07-24-2008, 03:10 PM
I think Iran legitimately wants nuclear weapons as a deterrent, and frankly, given the history of US and Israeli aggression, I can't hardly blame them. Obviously, that's not a situation the world wants, but it does make a bit of sense.

Well if the US and Israel can have them, why can't the Iranians?

Young blood
07-24-2008, 03:10 PM
Its times like these I wish subbass was here so you could check out his beats.

INTERNET OPINION!

Newro7ic
07-24-2008, 03:12 PM
You clearly misunderstood me. I know McCain lies, what I'm saying is that it's expected for him to lie and change positions on a daily basis (hence why I brought up how he's forsaken all of his old moderate policies).

The point I'm making is that it's hard to get behind someone who's outwardly honest but is starting to show signs of corruption in Obama when he's up against someone who's outwardly deceitful and shifty in McCain. And it's because of this that McCain is emerging as the most honest candidate because it's expected of him, with his age and all, to be unable to hold a story straight or not even give a damn about keeping his story straight. Why should he, he's a member of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy after all, he doesn't NEED to be honest to win.

Someone like Barack Obama thrives on people buying into the idea that he's honest when it's clear that he's not.

Well, I fail to see honesty in dishonesty. Just because you're expected to be dishonest, doesn't make you honest. That's not really how it works.

Obama is a politician. I know many people expect this massive policy change because of the way he speaks and plays to the crowd. That's obviously not going to happen. What hopefully will happen is a step in the right direction. Even a small step in the right direction, is still a step. Our country was designed in such a way that change doesn't happen in a day, or even one term. It took eight years to get where we are now, it's not going change again over night.

Newro7ic
07-24-2008, 03:13 PM
No, I'm sorry, I don't "know this." I don't swallow everything that's fed to me. If you fucking people understood any of the realities of what happened in that part of the world over the last century or, I dunno.... PAID THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF FUCKING ATTENTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENED IN YOUR OWN LIFETIME maybe you would too.

When has Iran ever mongered war? You think those people want war with Israel? That's the last thing they fucking want. Know why? Because they're not "madmen." They're not "insane." They know full well that they'd get wiped off the fucking map.

I find it hilarious that we, as the single most war hungry nation since Nazi Germany, have the audacity to call the leader of Iran a crazy war monger. Who the fuck did he invade, exactly? Who did he bomb to shreds? What nation did he subjugate to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocents who were no threat to him?

Oh, I'm sorry--that was us.

Dude, they are totally part of the axis of evil... dontchaknow?

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:20 PM
That is exactly what I would like. Cause anything he's said, the same has been said in kind by Israel and the US too. Except for the Holocaust questioning, but frankly when you end up being dominated by a tiny Jewish state that has absolutely no business being given your holy land in the name of an atrocity you didn't commit, well, maybe you'd be a little pissed and questioning too.

You know what's interesting. I had no idea about the interpretation of his speech where it was claimed he said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. There are loads and loads of analysis on this and it really looks like the translation was skewed. I like most americans take a lot of the news I read at face and I research more and more of it as I get older.

Want to debate the civil rights of the FLDS lol sorry anyway, thanks for causing me to do more research and find out more info, I wasn't aware there was even a discrepency in what he said. I was lead to believe that he flat out hated Israel and was going to kill all the jews once he got a chance.

I'm a sheep. I also love jewish people.

Down Rodeo
07-24-2008, 03:24 PM
Well if the US and Israel can have them, why can't the Iranians?

Well, until the US seriously decides to reduce its nuclear weapons stockpiles, we don't really have the moral authority to tell any other country they don't have the right to have nukes.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:24 PM
Well Fax I applaud you for overcoming cognitive dissonance and looking into the matter further. One of my biggest issues with this entire debacle is that, frankly, the translations put on our news broadcasts have been highly contested from day one. Every single one of those Osama tapes had numerous Arabic scholars saying, "Um... that's not what he said. This is incorrect. Your news channels are lying to you." And nobody ever finds out.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:33 PM
Ain't that the truth though. No one questions anything anymore. The FLDS case has certainly opened my eyes to irresponsible reporting. You fuck up some basic things like every media outlet did in that case I can only imagine what else is fucked up and now I research all of this bullshit. I just don't always do it before I develop my opinion. I have to apparently refine my opinion on many things lol. Fucking lying government and media. God damn them.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
Well, until the US seriously decides to reduce its nuclear weapons stockpiles, we don't really have the moral authority to tell any other country they don't have the right to have nukes.

Ahh but we do have another A word that Obama likes. Audacity. We have the audacity to tell Iran to put their nuke plans out of comission. I do agree they have the right to do whatever the fuck they want as long as we continue to do whatever the fuck we want and we are the self made example setters.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:39 PM
Pretty much, homie. The entire notion that the middle east is any significant threat to US specifically or anyone in general is just fucking laughable, frankly. All those people are trying to do is catch up with the 20th century, not even the 21st century. They don't want a world war, that's the last thing they need. All the Muslim world has ever really wanted is to be insulated from the rest of the world's influence so that they can live their lives as they please, but our imperial thirst for oil has driven us to keep fucking with their shit.

They're a bunch of miserably poor third-world religious folks who've been nice enough to contain themselves to one of the most uninhabitable parts of the entire globe that unfortunately happens to be rich with petroleum. They know full well that the days of their great empires are long gone and that they're lightyears behind the rest of the world and all they're trying to do is regain a little self-respect and live in accordance with their religious beliefs. And for some reason our nation--supposedly founded on the right to practice your religion freely--won't let them do it. It's fucked up and it's sad and don't believe any of the shit you're getting fed.

cansei de ser sexme
07-24-2008, 03:40 PM
I agree with you on this one faxman. I have never been very interested in voting or even listening to the candidates until now. I think the US is ready for a change and Obama is the only one offering up any change.

kBqiee2RM60

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:41 PM
Interesting indeed. I'm sold Randy. Now to prove you are a true master, take the other side and argue it even better. Go.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:43 PM
Eh, another day. I expend enough energy on this board arguing for things I believe in, I don't need to get back into the habit of arguing just for sport. =)

faxman75
07-24-2008, 03:44 PM
lol word. So, are we still betting Coachella tickets or shall we keep it a gentlemens bet at this point?

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:46 PM
I'll bet anything anyone wants. Sorry, it's not gonna happen. Breaks my fucking heart.

ShyGuy75
07-24-2008, 03:46 PM
The entire notion that the middle east is any significant threat to US specifically or anyone in general is just fucking laughable, frankly.

Pakistan is in the Middle East, right?

Are you off your meds again? After reading that, I am scared to read how this thread got so long.

boarderwoozel3
07-24-2008, 03:48 PM
I find it hilarious that we, as the single most war hungry nation since Nazi Germany, have the audacity to call the leader of Iran a crazy war monger. Who the fuck did he invade, exactly? Who did he bomb to shreds? What nation did he subjugate to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocents who were no threat to him?

Oh, I'm sorry--that was us.

Fact.

We don't war-monger; we eliminate “threats” preemptively? Propaganda much?

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 03:53 PM
Pakistan is in the Middle East, right?

Are you off your meds again? After reading that, I am scared to read how this thread got so long.

I don't really think you can lump Pakistan in with the middle east, no. They're on the Indian sub-continent for one, and the number of things that separates them from the rest of the Muslim world in the way the nation evolved and exists today is myriad.

Either way, they're still no threat to us. Maybe India should be worried.

Yablonowitz
07-24-2008, 04:59 PM
They are a threat in that they have known enclaves of al quaeda groups hiding in the forbidding Himalayan range and a rather substantial amount of nuclear arms that could be appropriated by al quaeda. The chance is remote, but there is a potential threat there. But the bulk of the country is made up of moderate muslims who we desperately need to engage in diplomatically to avoid potential problems between them and India and al quaeda. I don't know how to spell the name of that group, so don't make fun of my spelling.

Also, I hate when Randy's right, but for crissake people. Iran is way down on the list of foreign issues we need to be focused on.

Oh, and don't forget that whatever it was that Ahmeniajad has said means very little considering he does not have executive authority over Iran's military or foreign policy in general.

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 05:03 PM
This is assuming that Al Queda is a threat to us to begin with. Which they are--when we're invading their homelands.

Also, there's almost as many "I hate it when Randy's right" comments on this board as there are actual instances of me being right.

ALMOST.

Mr. Dylanja
07-24-2008, 05:08 PM
Pretty much, homie. The entire notion that the middle east is any significant threat to US specifically or anyone in general is just fucking laughable, frankly. All those people are trying to do is catch up with the 20th century, not even the 21st century. They don't want a world war, that's the last thing they need. All the Muslim world has ever really wanted is to be insulated from the rest of the world's influence so that they can live their lives as they please, but our imperial thirst for oil has driven us to keep fucking with their shit.

They're a bunch of miserably poor third-world religious folks who've been nice enough to contain themselves to one of the most uninhabitable parts of the entire globe that unfortunately happens to be rich with petroleum. They know full well that the days of their great empires are long gone and that they're lightyears behind the rest of the world and all they're trying to do is regain a little self-respect and live in accordance with their religious beliefs. And for some reason our nation--supposedly founded on the right to practice your religion freely--won't let them do it. It's fucked up and it's sad and don't believe any of the shit you're getting fed.


RANDY FOR PRESIDENT 2012!

















The year the world ends, so fitting.....

RotationSlimWang
07-24-2008, 05:09 PM
No, my time in power will come AFTER the collapse. The birth of the new empire will be a grand time, friends. Better than any we've lived through.

Yablonowitz
07-24-2008, 05:20 PM
Also, there's almost as many "I hate it when Randy's right" comments on this board as there are actual instances of me being right.

ALMOST.

That response is EXACTLY why say it, narcissist.

Also, Obama voting for FISA pulled the plug on any donations from me. And I had a whole thread on the issue and strongly encourage people who are pissed about privacy violations and illegal abuses of power from the executive branch AND of Democratic capitulation to these abuses (even with a president with a 30% approval rating) I strongly urge you to give some money to this:

http://accountabilitynowpac.com/

wmgaretjax
07-24-2008, 05:46 PM
That response is EXACTLY why say it, narcissist.

Also, Obama voting for FISA pulled the plug on any donations from me. And I had a whole thread on the issue and strongly encourage people who are pissed about privacy violations and illegal abuses of power from the executive branch AND of Democratic capitulation to these abuses (even with a president with a 30% approval rating) I strongly urge you to give some money to this:

http://accountabilitynowpac.com/

amen. this cannot be simply brushed away.

faxman75
07-24-2008, 05:46 PM
http://o.bamapost.com/

PotVsKtl
07-25-2008, 08:40 AM
http://bp3.blogger.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SIMXHjccfAI/AAAAAAAAA7M/_cYHAPjX0PA/s400/convention.jpg

Young blood
07-25-2008, 08:51 AM
your world, delivered.

gaypalmsprings
07-25-2008, 09:55 AM
let's just do away with elections. let the news media choose our politicians.