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thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:08 PM
Specifically, the whole big fiasco with my dad happened when I was in my last semester on the way to a lazy BA in English. As a result I went a little loopy and never completed some of the coursework, thus still being 6 credits short of the degree. I always put down that I got it anyway on my res and shit 'cause I didn't really imagine it coming up, and now it is. I managed to land a really decent job that is thoroughly life-saving and my recruiter just sent me the background check releases, thankfully she didn't check the box for "Education Verification" so I just sent it back without filling that part out to at least stall temporarily. If I'm lucky, she didn't mention it or check the box because they aren't interested in verifying my education; if I'm unlucky, which is the prevailing wind of recent history, I need to figure out how to handle this conversation rather urgently.

So: anyone ever worked for one of these background check places and got any ideas, or work in HR and have some suggestions of strategic lies I should prepare, or work for a University and know a way to make my transcript unreleasable even with written authorization? Called my school and they said they send the whole transcript for these deals, which is even worse.

C'mon Board, show me some of that sweet, sweet pep...

bug on your lip
05-27-2008, 01:13 PM
just don't open your mouth & you should be fine

kreutz2112
05-27-2008, 01:14 PM
finish your degree.

BlackSwan
05-27-2008, 01:16 PM
this thread is going to get funny...




C'mon Board, show me some of that sweet, sweet pep...

Jenniehoo
05-27-2008, 01:17 PM
I didn't complete Speech in order to get my A.A. for like 2 years before I got my B.A. - so I put, "60 Hours of Coursework Completed - A.A. Equivalent". That way you can explain it - but they know that you did the work. I think being honest is the best thing you can do if they ask - I mean, short of, "oh man, I was fucked up for a semester and couldn't complete my degree," but tell them some personal issues arose and you were unable to complete the degree. But it's possible they won't ask. I didn't even have my degree in my portfolio for like 5 years and I managed to get two good jobs just on the assertion that I had one - they didn't ask for transcripts or anything.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:18 PM
I'm banking on them not making an issue of it. Failing that, I will pull on every heartstring this fucking lady has until I yank the one that counts.

fiyahhh!
05-27-2008, 01:18 PM
How long ago was this "last semester"? If it was recent, you could always say it's "in progress"... if they bite, chances are they'll either a. forget about it over time or b. won't care after you've proven yourself as a valuable asset to their company. Good luck.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:20 PM
2003. Yeah, that ain't gonna work--way I see it my current obstacle is just explaining to the recruiter why I would have deceived her which I think I could get her to understand 'cause she loves me anyway. But I'm concerned whether or not she's definitely obliged to inform the client about this inconsistency/untruth, which might look horrible.

BlackSwan
05-27-2008, 01:21 PM
2003. Yeah, that ain't gonna work--way I see it my current obstacle is just explaining to the recruiter why I would have deceived her which I think I could get her to understand 'cause she loves me anyway. But I'm concerned whether or not she's definitely obliged to inform the client about this inconsistency/untruth, which might look horrible.

the recruiter is probably a bigger liar than you are, they are going to do anything to get you hired so don't worry about them ratting you out now, especially since you are so close to being hired.. i have a couple friends who used to be recruiters and it is a super shady business.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:22 PM
Okay, she just called me to check about something else on the release I filled out and didn't mention anything about the education section--you are now all allowed to be relieved.

SFChrissy
05-27-2008, 01:23 PM
Finish your degree your so close but in the mean time...say "Bachelor In English Degree Candidate"

It gives them the indication that you have a degree, are in the process of getting one or are soon to graduate...it works!!!

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 01:24 PM
finish your degree.

best answer so far. it's only 6 credits!!! you could maybe even test out of those if they aren't core classes!!! get on that!!!

forget my answer, you got it solved :)

best of luck, randy!!!

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:24 PM
Fuck that goddamn degree. The school I went to is cunty about transferring credits to seemingly anywhere and it was a waste of time to begin with.

EDIT: all that profanity was not directed at you, Ivy. For you I naturally have nothing to say but whispers of sweet nothings and perhaps a few gentle interrogatories re: anal.

bug on your lip
05-27-2008, 01:26 PM
can u hold on a sec Randy ?

"worst day in Board History" thread is calling me on the other line

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Fuck that goddamn degree. The school I went to is cunty about transferring credits to seemingly anywhere and it was a waste of time to begin with.

SIX CREDITS!

the bigger waste of time is the other 114 credits that aren't an ACTUAL DEGREE! come on, randy!!! put up with their bullshit for 6 credits!!!

ok, i'll take my "i've worked for a university for 6 years" hat off now :)

*edit* i didn't think that was directed at me cause i'm not a goddamned pussy =P thanks for the sweet nothings, i still want you to finish your degree though!!! we'll have to get you a tutor a la billy madison...

SFChrissy
05-27-2008, 01:27 PM
2003. Yeah, that ain't gonna work--way I see it my current obstacle is just explaining to the recruiter why I would have deceived her which I think I could get her to understand 'cause she loves me anyway. But I'm concerned whether or not she's definitely obliged to inform the client about this inconsistency/untruth, which might look horrible.

If she's representing you she's representing you so she can get her commission. She won't inform him of your inconsistency/untruth...she wants to fullfill her client and get her commission. If she likes you than she'll be more eager to push your resume and how you personally impact her client depends on you getting the job or not.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:27 PM
David Spade sent me a letter from 1993, Bug--he's asking that you cease and desist exuming that joke's corpse.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:28 PM
SIX CREDITS!

the bigger waste of time is the other 114 credits that aren't an ACTUAL DEGREE! come on, randy!!! put up with their bullshit for 6 credits!!!

ok, i'll take my "i've worked for a university for 6 years" hat off now :)

*edit* i didn't think that was directed at me cause i'm not a goddamned pussy =P thanks for the sweet nothings, i still want you to finish your degree though!!! we'll have to get you a tutor a la billy madison...

You work for a school? Well that automatically makes our tryst kinky for me, so that's good.


If she's representing you she's representing you so she can get her commission. She won't inform him of your inconsistency/untruth...she wants to fullfill her client and get her commission. If she likes you than she'll be more eager to push your resume and how you personally impact her client depends on you getting the job or not.

I like this kind of perspective. Good call, Chrissy.

bug on your lip
05-27-2008, 01:34 PM
just pay the recruiter to finish yer degree

kreutz2112
05-27-2008, 01:34 PM
can u hold on a sec Randy ?

"worst day in Board History" thread is calling me on the other line

lul

SFChrissy
05-27-2008, 01:37 PM
I like this kind of perspective. Good call, Chrissy.I had to deal with those fucks for 6 months and that's pretty much what it comes down too...good luck Randing!!!

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:37 PM
Kreutz, your taste in Bug jokes is as devoid of a sense of humor as your demotivational posters.

Bug, I'll see you in bed, asshole.

kreutz2112
05-27-2008, 01:39 PM
I know his joke wasn't that funny, thats why I said lul. lul is like a small chuckle to me.

bug on your lip
05-27-2008, 01:42 PM
Randy

don't u see without this degree u r losing control...

some chick needing a commission controls u...

get yer effin 6 credits done or pop some pills & push a mop
either way u bring control back in yer balmy hands

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 01:43 PM
some chick needing a commission controls u...

isn't that always the way...

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 01:44 PM
I'll pay one of these horseshit institutions the day that they pry the money from my cold, dead hands.


Seeing as I don't anticipate having any money in the near future I think I should be safe.

thestripe
05-27-2008, 01:45 PM
isn't that always the way...

Young blood is living proof.

locachica73
05-27-2008, 02:31 PM
I use to be the HR/Recruiter for the company I am with now and I can honestly say we never verified education, just work history. I guess we figured if the prior companies hired and gave good references then that was all that really mattered. But I guess it would depend on the position your going for. I think the only time they would really look into education is if you have to have a license of some sort to practice in the field your going for, i.e. doctor, teacher, lawyer. Just my thoughts.

menikmati
05-27-2008, 02:33 PM
what kind of job?

CalmerThanYou
05-27-2008, 03:06 PM
What's the name of the company? I need contact info too, i'll get this sorted out for you...

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 03:07 PM
More IT support shit. No companies will be mentioned.

paganman7
05-27-2008, 03:08 PM
I use to be the HR/Recruiter for the company I am with now and I can honestly say we never verified education, just work history. I guess we figured if the prior companies hired and gave good references then that was all that really mattered. But I guess it would depend on the position your going for. I think the only time they would really look into education is if you have to have a license of some sort to practice in the field your going for, i.e. doctor, teacher, lawyer. Just my thoughts.


My company never verified that I had a PhD. They simply took my word for it.

luckyface
05-27-2008, 03:17 PM
Hey Randy, I can't imagine your old institution would want to lose out on the money, even if it is 6 credits. Any other institution would not grant you a degree for only taking 6 units there. There are usually transfer limits.

What classes do you need to take? If they are GenEd's, there might be some online classes you can take to complete your degree. It will be worth investigating.

Edit: Plus, some schools will have a time limit to complete your degree. Make sure you take care of this before credits start expiring.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 03:19 PM
Dude, there's no fucking way in hell you're getting me back in a classroom. Next time I'll tell something closer to the truth, but no, let's drop this "go back to school" line.

luckyface
05-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Online classes aren't in the classroom.

CalmerThanYou
05-27-2008, 03:23 PM
Randy, i hope you get pepper sprayed by this chick when she realizes you lied.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 03:23 PM
I couldn't give a fuck. I'm not paying any of those fucks just to get a degree that means nothing of any importance.

jazzz
05-27-2008, 03:49 PM
fuck the degree what about your urine sample??

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 03:52 PM
Passing a piss test is so easy I'm not even thinking about it. I don't think it's part of the deal anyway though, I assume it would have been mentioned.

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 03:59 PM
Passing a piss test is so easy I'm not even thinking about it. I don't think it's part of the deal anyway though, I assume it would have been mentioned.

i am amazed that the number of companies that do. seems like such a waste for most jobs.

Hopeless Semantic
05-27-2008, 03:59 PM
Ahh the dreaded piss test...

gaypalmsprings
05-27-2008, 04:00 PM
I think they look at your credit report closer than your resume.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 04:09 PM
Thanks for reminding me on the urine note though, I suppose I might as well stop smoking weed after tonight until I start next week. Fucking pot, only goddamn drug that's remotely hard to cover up.

jazzz
05-27-2008, 04:10 PM
If they are doing a background they will probaly want some urine. I'm going thru this process right now. Good luck

jonnypark
05-27-2008, 04:10 PM
I may be a little late with this but a couple of years ago I was teaching English in Taiwan and went over there as I was told that I was qualified to teach over there with my Tesol certificate and high school diploma. I was only a year into my degree at the time. When I got there however the recruitment agency told me that I needed to get a degree and they could get me one for the the Tawanese equivilant of $20usd. Sure enough, in two days they had a photocopy of a degree + transcripts with my name on them. Even better, they were from the University of Calgary, where I am from. The fakes are out there.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 04:11 PM
Luck shouldn't be a factor--I have WATER. =)

ThomThom
05-27-2008, 04:11 PM
Randy,

What was the exact date of your first meeting with the recruiter?

Wheres the beef?
05-27-2008, 04:12 PM
My company never verified that I had a PhD. They simply took my word for it.

Why wouldn't they take your word for it? You have a fucking PhD.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 04:15 PM
Thom, um, I dunno, three or four weeks ago, why the fuck do you care?

Young blood
05-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Does it matter? You will be fired in 2 weeks tops.

ThomThom
05-27-2008, 04:19 PM
Thom, um, I dunno, three or four weeks ago, why the fuck do you care?

In a few of the healthcare organizations that I worked for in the past they had a confidentiality guideline in place that allowed them a 30 day window to verify certain things pertaining to your background check, one of them being your education. It was 30 days from the date the contingent offer was made.

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 04:24 PM
If they are doing a background they will probaly want some urine. I'm going thru this process right now. Good luck

not necessarily. it's probable yes, but some companies like mine were founded by smart people who think drug testing is complete bullshit :)

and yeah, i think it's fucked that pot is the hardest to cover up. you could drink a capful of bleach on the advice of some dumbass like i did in high school. you'll pass, but you'll also drink a ton of water which will dillute it anyways. god i was retarded. but when your mom catches you home ditching and threatens you with a drug test, i guess your thought process gets a bit jumbled, lol.

PineapplePete
05-27-2008, 04:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, where were you getting your B.A.?

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 04:38 PM
You DRANK bleach? You're supposed to get the bleach into the urine, good fucking lord, Ivy. Consider not believing some yabow in high school who tells you to drink bleach, or most high school yabows in general.

A school in Jersey you've never heard of.

Young blood
05-27-2008, 04:39 PM
7RKQRVn4NAs

jazzz
05-27-2008, 04:51 PM
not necessarily. it's probable yes, but some companies like mine were founded by smart people who think drug testing is complete bullshit :)

and yeah, i think it's fucked that pot is the hardest to cover up. you could drink a capful of bleach on the advice of some dumbass like i did in high school. you'll pass, but you'll also drink a ton of water which will dillute it anyways. god i was retarded. but when your mom catches you home ditching and threatens you with a drug test, i guess your thought process gets a bit jumbled, lol.

lucky you.. my company is using a third party company to do a complete background check and I have 48hrs to give up some urine!

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 04:58 PM
lucky you.. my company is using a third party company to do a complete background check and I have 48hrs to give up some urine!

eeeek, that sucks! best of luck :)

and yeah, i know, i was a retarded 16 year old. i also fell for the old "bet you can't touch your elbows behind your back" and "bet i can do more jumping jacks than you" tricks. i'm naive, but getting better, i promise...

ThomThom
05-27-2008, 05:01 PM
lucky you.. my company is using a third party company to do a complete background check and I have 48hrs to give up some urine!

Jazzz,

Go to your local smoke shop and purchase "STAT FLUSH!".

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 05:02 PM
J--you're a rude motherfucker.

Ivy--My lord...

...

those jumping jacks must have been...


...


Jesus.

jazzz
05-27-2008, 05:08 PM
Jazzz,

Go to your local smoke shop and purchase "STAT FLUSH!".

thanks Thom but I should be ok. I knew I would be tested so I haven't smoked almost 2 months. I was dying at Coachella with it being everywhere.

ThomThom
05-27-2008, 05:12 PM
thanks Thom but I should be ok. I knew I would be tested so I haven't smoked almost 2 months. I was dying at Coachella with it being everywhere.

No problem, another thing you can do just to be safe is to advise the lab that you have an existing prescription for Protonix/20mg for acid reflux. There is usually either an actual field where you can advise of any prescriptions or you can just write it in the additional comments area. Protonix has a history of giving false positives on drug tests due to the amount of THC in it. ALL labs know about Protonix. They rarely ask you for an actual copy of the RX.

Young blood
05-27-2008, 05:13 PM
Stfu you fucking vagina. Randy has gone emo. The truth will set you free.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 05:14 PM
J, you and I are gonna have a cock-off to the death some day, I swear it. What the fuck crawled in your sister's cunt and won't let you in?

Young blood
05-27-2008, 05:16 PM
hahahaha jus keepin it real.

thelastgreatman
05-27-2008, 05:19 PM
No one in fucking Colorado is allowed to keep a damn thing related to me "real" for me, thank you. When you move somewhere with a higher than 0.003 percentage of ethnicities in your population and fewer human roaches, burned to a nub from the hippie movement and just looking for a peaceful place to be fucking worthless in an outdoorsy climate with plenty of rednecks for neighbors, then perhaps you can keep my dick real.

chairmenmeow47
05-27-2008, 05:24 PM
hahahaha jus keepin it real.

I DON'T LIKE PEOPLE PLAYING ON MY PHONE!!!!!!!!!!

Young blood
05-27-2008, 05:25 PM
L.....A.....

Yeah, my neighbor isn't a trans-gender Hindu Armenian....i must be missing out.

leo01g
05-27-2008, 05:44 PM
L.....A.....

Yeah, my neighbor isn't a trans-gender Hindu Armenian....i must be missing out.

ahahhaa mine is

paganman7
05-28-2008, 06:34 AM
I couldn't give a fuck. I'm not paying any of those fucks just to get a degree that means nothing of any importance.


I totally commend you on this decision. Not that my opinion of you is of any consequence, but my respect for you has increased significantly from this statement.

You're clearly a talented, educated person, and I hope that a future employer will see beyond the lack of meaningless credentials and give you a chance.


Can I spit your cock out now?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 06:44 AM
I totally commend you on this decision. Not that my opinion of you is of any consequence, but my respect for you has increased significantly from this statement.

You're clearly a talented, educated person, and I hope that a future employer will see beyond the lack of meaningless credentials and give you a chance.


Can I spit your cock out now?

I mean, I guess you could. Somehow I doubt you want to. It's a pretty sweet dick.

To wrap up this thread, I got two fucking calls back from my recruiter asking for clarification on items I filled out in the release and there was absolutely no mention of the education verification. I'm assuming (please don't smite me, Lord) that this means I might have escaped by my neck. I will probably not lie on my resume quite like that anymore.

Thank you, thread. Except you, J--I hope you have to pull a Donner Party while traversing the Rockies in the company of nothing but fat guys infected with advanced cases of the gay cancer.

bug on your lip
05-28-2008, 06:50 AM
i guess we all found out today that paganman7 is Meh's other login

captncrzy
05-28-2008, 07:18 AM
Randy, they don't check. I'm short a couple of credits myself and it's never ever came up...need to CLEP out of them and just haven't gotten around to doing it.

algunz
05-28-2008, 07:50 AM
If the degree is from some shitty college in Jersey, nobody is going to bother to check.

They are probably laughing at you right now, Randy.

SFChrissy
05-28-2008, 08:20 AM
I just went thru a background check and education wasn't an issue. Primarily they are looking for work history (verifying the employment that you listed...some may be responsive others may not), Credit & Criminal History (this is primarily to see if you have a history of financial crimes). As for the P tests...it's primarily an insurance liability and effects companies that hold government contracts...fuck that the specs require you to maintain a drug free work zone...that means no drugs on the job, no soliciting on the job no where in the specs does it say anything about personal time...

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 08:33 AM
If the degree is from some shitty college in Jersey, nobody is going to bother to check.

They are probably laughing at you right now, Randy.

What college did you bother going to all four years of? Where'd you get your Masters afterwards?
How does it feel knowing your 6-7 years and, what, 100-150k thousand dollars of tuition invested at those institutions were all to prepare you to make a low-end white collar salary working as a babysitter?
I'm probably starting just a hair under your salary, and I actually only attended three semesters of college and dropped out of high school! Tee hee!

betao
05-28-2008, 08:43 AM
I'm probably starting just a hair under your salary, and I actually only attended three semesters of college and dropped out of high school! Tee hee!

how inspiring.

algunz
05-28-2008, 08:53 AM
I graduated from Columbia for undergrad and got my credential and Masters at Pepperdine. I've almost got it all paid off, only a few more years.

But . . . I am fully respectful of your opinion - in that I often wonder was 15 years of paying student loans really worth it? I don't really have an answer for that, but I can safely say that my education on my resume pretty much secured my hiring. My brother a graduate of Yale and then a medical degree from UCLA is definitely a supporter of your opinion. He is adamant about the fact that in the long run the institution where you get your degree from means little. He assures my father that he will send his kids to a state school. Of course if my dad has anything to say about it that won't be the case. My dad is a firm believer of the private school system despite the fact that he is a professor at UCI. This is a very common debate amongst my family. I don't think we will ever come to a consensus. I just know I want my daughter to go to a four year school and the scary thing is that by the time she's ready to go it will be almost 100,000 dollars a year to send her to a private school. That's just fucking scary, so the UC system is looking pretty good. Of course even a state school like Berkeley or LA will be fricking ridiculously expensive too.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 08:57 AM
Jesus Christ, you got to go to Columbia and became a teacher with it? God you people perplex me. Wait, I'm always a little fuzzy on how much of the schooling is required to be a major in Education or Babysitting or whatever--what's your Bachelor's in?

paganman7
05-28-2008, 08:57 AM
Although I will stress academics to my daughter, I absolutely will not pass judgement on HER decision. If she wants to go to Cornell...sweet. If she wants to go to state school...sweet. If she wants to forgo college all together and make coffee at Starbucks...sweet. I want my daughter to be 1. safe and 2. happy.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 09:10 AM
I'd beat the fuck out of my kids if they ended up wanting to stay in school. It would just be too disappointing.

algunz
05-28-2008, 09:15 AM
Jesus Christ, you got to go to Columbia and became a teacher with it? God you people perplex me. Wait, I'm always a little fuzzy on how much of the schooling is required to be a major in Education or Babysitting or whatever--what's your Bachelor's in?

We've had this conversation before. I was a film studies major in undergrad and it took me 2 years to get my credential and Masters in Education. I always find it funny how people are shocked that I chose a career in education just because I have an Ivy League degree. Aren't those the people you would like teaching your kids? Why is teaching a waste of my degree?

algunz
05-28-2008, 09:19 AM
Although I will stress academics to my daughter, I absolutely will not pass judgement on HER decision. If she wants to go to Cornell...sweet. If she wants to go to state school...sweet. If she wants to forgo college all together and make coffee at Starbucks...sweet. I want my daughter to be 1. safe and 2. happy.

I totally agree with the safe and happy, but I think I would be very disappointed if my daughter chose to skip school. I come from a family of educators and I just don't see that being an option for her. Not that we would force her, but it's just kind of a given. Besides my college years were some of the best fucking years of my life. I wouldn't want her to lose out on those experiences. Of course I'm not sure I'd want her to be doing some of the things I chose to do, but that I know (especially at that point) I won't be able to control. I can only pray for the safe and happy.

chairmenmeow47
05-28-2008, 09:28 AM
work for a university and BAM, no need for student loans. that's why i stay in school, cause i work here, lol. i work in financial aid and there are a lot of people that are wasting their time and money. it makes me sad too that people view it purely as a piece of paper they are buying and they skim the books, bs the papers and scrape by learning nothing. sure, you may get a better paying job some day, but was it worth the cost? and more importantly, did you learn ANYTHING?!

and bug's posts always make me smile. i can't help it!!!

luckyface
05-28-2008, 09:35 AM
work for a university and BAM, no need for student loans. that's why i stay in school, cause i work here, lol.

Seriously. I had half of my Masters degree paid for (I started halfway through my program), and will begin work on my doctorate in the fall. The cost to me for the entire program should be the equivalent of 1 1/2 semesters. There are definitely perks to working at a university.

Where do you work, Ivy?

chairmenmeow47
05-28-2008, 09:42 AM
Seriously. I had half of my Masters degree paid for (I started halfway through my program), and will begin work on my doctorate in the fall. The cost to me for the entire program should be the equivalent of 1 1/2 semesters. There are definitely perks to working at a university.

Where do you work, Ivy?

apollo group. they own university of phoenix and other subsidiaries.

you're definitely doing it the smart way! congratulations on your doctorate, that's wonderful to hear. what are you studying?

my dad dropped out of college in the 60s. he ended up working at the palo verde power plant here when i was born just like homer, lol. he decided in the 90s he wanted his bachelors, so he got a job at ASU as a janitor on weekends (while keeping his weekly power plant job) to pay for his tuition. he got his degree a few years ago and is finishing up his masters. it's basically free, but he still works 7 days a week. now that's dedication!!! he motivates me to stick with it here. it's hard sometimes, but it's worth it :)

algunz
05-28-2008, 09:44 AM
What are you studying, Ivy?

Wheres the beef?
05-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Seriously. I had half of my Masters degree paid for (I started halfway through my program), and will begin work on my doctorate in the fall. The cost to me for the entire program should be the equivalent of 1 1/2 semesters. There are definitely perks to working at a university.

Are there perks for knowing someone who works at a university? And by "know" I mean has had brief contact with on a music festival message board.

paganman7
05-28-2008, 09:56 AM
My entire doctoral degree was paid for by my program. They covered all of my tuition, books, travel expenses to conferences, health insurance, and gave me a $24,000 per year stipend. I borrowed $18,000 to get my BS (4.5 years), and borrowed $0 to get my doctorate...go figure.

luckyface
05-28-2008, 09:56 AM
apollo group. they own university of phoenix and other subsidiaries.

you're definitely doing it the smart way! congratulations on your doctorate, that's wonderful to hear. what are you studying?

my dad dropped out of college in the 60s. he ended up working at the palo verde power plant here when i was born just like homer, lol. he decided in the 90s he wanted his bachelors, so he got a job at ASU as a janitor on weekends (while keeping his weekly power plant job) to pay for his tuition. he got his degree a few years ago and is finishing up his masters. it's basically free, but he still works 7 days a week. now that's dedication!!! he motivates me to stick with it here. it's hard sometimes, but it's worth it :)

That was a real smart decision by your dad, although I am sure he would have appreciated more rest. Also, if you have kids, there is not much better a job to have than on a university campus. If you work for a certain number of years, you can actually send your kids through school for free (if they are accepted). At least that is how it works here.

And thanks! I am going to be gunning for a Doctorate of Education, with an emphasis on Higher Ed.

luckyface
05-28-2008, 09:58 AM
My entire doctoral degree was paid for by my program. They covered all of my tuition, books, travel expenses to conferences, health insurance, and gave me a $24,000 per year stipend. I borrowed $18,000 to get my BS (4.5 years), and borrowed $0 to get my doctorate...go figure.

Right, a lot of Ph.D. are funded, so it is not a cost to students, per se. The Ed.D. though is not one of the funded programs. This is good and bad actually. I could hold a job that pays me a ton more than I could make if I were funded, but I am responsible for paying for part of the program.

luckyface
05-28-2008, 09:59 AM
Are there perks for knowing someone who works at a university? And by "know" I mean has had brief contact with on a music festival message board.

Hahaha. It depends on what program you are looking at. But knowing someone who works at a university really helps a lot. This industry is all about networking and connections.

Hopeless Semantic
05-28-2008, 10:08 AM
I've still yet to complete my Masters. Someday when I get time off or accrued enough time to do what's known as career enhancement, then I'll go back. Until then, I will continue working. Boo.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:09 AM
We've had this conversation before. I was a film studies major in undergrad and it took me 2 years to get my credential and Masters in Education. I always find it funny how people are shocked that I chose a career in education just because I have an Ivy League degree. Aren't those the people you would like teaching your kids? Why is teaching a waste of my degree?

In seventh grade? I dunno, really. To tell the truth I don't think it matters whether you're all that smart of a teacher at that age level--the system forces your lesson plan to conform to essentially time-killing standards, and from what I've heard out of you it doesn't sound like you're bringing a lot of Columbia-fueled dynamic lessons you designed yourself to grab the kids imagination, or some other platitude from a movie where a teacher reaches inner-city youths. Perhaps at the high school level you might be put to decent use, but even then you can't choose the coursework, books, nada. Your education is effectively nullified in usefulness to the students.

You should teach college if you want to be a teacher--sorry, I still see your gig as at least 50 percent babysitting. Or you could take all those smarts and Education studies and try to design better methods by which to teach, reform the system perhaps, but you being a seventh-grade English teacher doesn't make a pubic hair of difference compared to a community college-educated alternative.


work for a university and BAM, no need for student loans. that's why i stay in school, cause i work here, lol. i work in financial aid and there are a lot of people that are wasting their time and money. it makes me sad too that people view it purely as a piece of paper they are buying and they skim the books, bs the papers and scrape by learning nothing. sure, you may get a better paying job some day, but was it worth the cost? and more importantly, did you learn ANYTHING?!

and bug's posts always make me smile. i can't help it!!!

If the knowledge is attractive, audit classes for free. If the paper is useful professionally then I'm not sure there's much of a difference whether you work hard or not that hard--whatever learning is desired can be pulled from the rights books so why not slack your way to a degree? Not necessarily discouraging your academic pursuits, but I've just never really understood the motivation. The right books are better than 99 percent of teachers in my experience. Will your degree contibute to your professional course do you think? What school do you go to, and is there a better school you could be auditing these courses from? Is there really much of a point studying when I could teach you lots of stuff so much better, like your own anatomy?

Questions for the ages, indeed.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:13 AM
In seventh grade? I dunno, really. To tell the truth I don't think it matters whether you're all that smart of a teacher at that age level--the system forces your lesson plan to conform to essentially time-killing standards, and from what I've heard out of you it doesn't sound like you're bringing a lot of Columbia-fueled dynamic lessons you designed yourself to grab the kids imagination, or some other platitude from a movie where a teacher reaches inner-city youths. Perhaps at the high school level you might be put to decent use, but even then you can't choose the coursework, books, nada. Your education is effectively nullified in usefulness to the students.

You should teach college if you want to be a teacher--sorry, I still see your gig as at least 50 percent babysitting. Or you could take all those smarts and Education studies and try to design better methods by which to teach, reform the system perhaps, but you being a seventh-grade English teacher doesn't make a pubic hair of difference compared to a community college-educated alternative.



If the knowledge is attractive, audit classes for free. If the paper is useful professionally then I'm not sure there's much of a difference whether you work hard or not that hard--whatever learning is desired can be pulled from the rights books so why not slack your way to a degree? Not necessarily discouraging your academic pursuits, but I've just never really understood the motivation. The right books are better than 99 percent of teachers in my experience. Will your degree contibute to your professional course do you think? What school do you go to, and is there a better school you could be auditing these courses from? Is there really much of a point studying when I could teach you lots of stuff so much better, like your own anatomy?

Questions for the ages, indeed.

Its posts like these, why I am happy Randy went to Uni for English....seriously...poetic, seriously funny and always sexual....

canexplain
05-28-2008, 10:13 AM
Hope this all works out for you …. Here we make people take lie detector tests, and full background checks …. We do the full check, but never ever check on any education entries … so good luck .. Now, lay off Colorado or I will send a rabid jackalope to ram your ass …. X****

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:15 AM
Hope this all works out for you …. Here we make people take lie detector tests, and full background checks …. We do the full check, but never ever check on any education entries … so good luck .. Now, lay off Colorado or I will send a rabid jackalope to ram your ass …. X****

True...this state is all about the background checks...I remember in Las Vegas everything was by your word but not here buddy...

canexplain
05-28-2008, 10:21 AM
True...this state is all about the background checks...I remember in Las Vegas everything was by your word but not here buddy...

yea when i started here, they did the backround check, and of course, everything was fine for me :) but after i had worked here about 15 years they put in the lie detector bs, it took be 3 times to pass that friggin thing ... i almost got fired but they kept giving me chances lol ... x****

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:22 AM
yea when i started here, they did the backround check, and of course, everything was fine for me :) but after i had worked here about 15 years they put in the lie detector bs, it took be 3 times to pass that friggin thing ... i almost got fired but they kept giving me chances lol ... x****

what do you do again Ron?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:22 AM
That's why I'm still not sold on schooling--all you have to do to learn English is fucking read. Read good books written by authors who don't make mistakes. You see how writing should be done. Worse comes to worse, you consult a bloody grammar and style book when you have a question. There, I saved the kids 12 years of inefficent pain in the ass note-taking and dittos, as well as the frequent "English teachers who don't know the subject so the teaching is counter-productive" phenomenon.

algunz
05-28-2008, 10:23 AM
In seventh grade? I dunno, really. To tell the truth I don't think it matters whether you're all that smart of a teacher at that age level--the system forces your lesson plan to conform to essentially time-killing standards, and from what I've heard out of you it doesn't sound like you're bringing a lot of Columbia-fueled dynamic lessons you designed yourself to grab the kids imagination, or some other platitude from a movie where a teacher reaches inner-city youths. Perhaps at the high school level you might be put to decent use, but even then you can't choose the coursework, books, nada. Your education is effectively nullified in usefulness to the students.



Unfortunately you are right to some degree. I am forced to teach "the standards" as you are in high school too, which leaves me with days of them having to read and then answer questions or memorize spelling rules etc. That is why you might find me here.

I don't get this though:
"from what I've heard out of you it doesn't sound like you're bringing a lot of Columbia-fueled dynamic lessons you designed yourself to grab the kids imagination"
How from the very little information that I have shared can you make this assumption? You know nothing - sometimes it can be frighteningly clear and other times you can hide your ignorance with your trite wit and tedious innuendos.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:27 AM
That's why I'm still not sold on schooling--all you have to do to learn English is fucking read. Read good books written by authors who don't make mistakes. You see how writing should be done. Worse comes to worse, you consult a bloody grammar and style book when you have a question. There, I saved the kids 12 years of inefficent pain in the ass note-taking and dittos, as well as the frequent "English teachers who don't know the subject so the teaching is counter-productive" phenomenon.

Your right...it is all a big scheme unless you plan on going for Engineering, Medical or High level Economics or Mathematics...every thing else is complete bull shit...nowadays a BA is worth what a HS degree was 20 years ago. Now it is all about getting your masters...more like a REALLY expensive delay into the job market....granted just having one helps you compete but it is more of a "Oh! You have a degree so your part of the club". That being said...I am still working on going to school because I know how the game works and I have to play by the rules in order to move up in the world...

canexplain
05-28-2008, 10:27 AM
what do you do again Ron?

i am in charge of all online security for arapahoe county govt ... and the surf nazi to make sure no one goes certain places or surfs too long .... x****

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:28 AM
i am in charge of all online security for arapahoe county govt ... and the surf nazi to make sure no one goes certain places or surfs too long .... x****

wow...good call...and a state job no less...I am trying to land one of those....

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:29 AM
Unfortunately you are right to some degree. I am forced to teach "the standards" as you are in high school too, which leaves me with days of them having to read and then answer questions or memorize spelling rules etc. That is why you might find me here.

I don't get this though:
"from what I've heard out of you it doesn't sound like you're bringing a lot of Columbia-fueled dynamic lessons you designed yourself to grab the kids imagination"
How from the very little information that I have shared can you make this assumption? You know nothing - sometimes it can be frighteningly clear and other times you can hide your ignorance with your trite wit and tedious innuendos.

Are you denying it? Do tell, then. How have you expanded on the rather rigorously dictated guidelines for your lesson plan, incorporating that big ol' Columbia brain into teaching Where The Red Fern Grows or some other book about a boy and his pet dog?

paganman7
05-28-2008, 10:31 AM
That's why I'm still not sold on schooling--all you have to do to learn English is fucking read. Read good books written by authors who don't make mistakes. You see how writing should be done. Worse comes to worse, you consult a bloody grammar and style book when you have a question. There, I saved the kids 12 years of inefficent pain in the ass note-taking and dittos, as well as the frequent "English teachers who don't know the subject so the teaching is counter-productive" phenomenon.


My chosen field requires my degree.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:34 AM
My chosen field requires my degree.

almost ever field does...doesn't mean you actually need one...alot of jobs can be learned "on the job" and opposed to 4 years of university...I have been working in Hotels for 8 years...people in Las Vegas actually go to school for it and when they are out and start working in a hotel...it is nothing like the book...my job requires a degree but I have enough work experience that it trumps it...thank god...or else I wouldn't be able to afford things like a house and coachella...

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:35 AM
Fair enough--if there's a professional necessity for it then by all means. Frankly it's not so much the academia that I object to, it's the importance of a degree when the goal is learning. ::shrug::

chairmenmeow47
05-28-2008, 10:36 AM
That was a real smart decision by your dad, although I am sure he would have appreciated more rest. Also, if you have kids, there is not much better a job to have than on a university campus. If you work for a certain number of years, you can actually send your kids through school for free (if they are accepted). At least that is how it works here.

And thanks! I am going to be gunning for a Doctorate of Education, with an emphasis on Higher Ed.

yeah, i could have gone to asu through my dad without having to pay much. unfortunately i tried it, but since i graduated at 16 and went to college at 17, i wasn't really focused on studying and dropped out. and i didn't really get the true desire to go back to school until i entered the workforce and quickly realized what i liked and didn't like doing.


If the knowledge is attractive, audit classes for free. If the paper is useful professionally then I'm not sure there's much of a difference whether you work hard or not that hard--whatever learning is desired can be pulled from the rights books so why not slack your way to a degree? Not necessarily discouraging your academic pursuits, but I've just never really understood the motivation. The right books are better than 99 percent of teachers in my experience. Will your degree contibute to your professional course do you think? What school do you go to, and is there a better school you could be auditing these courses from? Is there really much of a point studying when I could teach you lots of stuff so much better, like your own anatomy?

Questions for the ages, indeed.

auditing classes for free is a great way to learn. but yeah, you're not going to get the piece of paper showing you have the knowledge that will ultimately be beneficial for your job. i could probably audit classes from a better university, no doubt about it.

the thing i like about my university is it's older, working adults, as well as international students. sure, they didn't get a 1500 on their SATs or anything like that, but they're realistic. their heads aren't in the clouds and they can have discussions about things on a serious level. i didn't feel like i was getting that at ASU when i was taking lower division classes at least. everyone at that age is so idealistic and unrealistic, it makes classrooom discussions unenjoyable for me. my current class is taught by someone from afghanistan and there are people from yugoslavia to japan in my class. i just can't get that kind of outside, worldwide perspective about specific issues without the classroom environment.

and classroom discussion is why i go to school. the instructors are also professionals; they didn't become teachers in the bubble of academia, instead they became teachers as a way to earn extra money in their retirement (generally). i feel like i get a lot more from classroom discussion than any other method of learning. also, i need the structured classroom environment to keep me on track and focused.

the classroom also forces me to study things i don't like and challenges me to examine my beliefs further than i would without the external influence. i used to hate anything to do with math or money until i took economics with a teacher that made me excited about it. then i started listening to marketplace on NPR and now i'm hooked, lol.

my degree also will further my professional course. i work in higher education and therefore i work with a lot of other people who got multiple degrees for free. while i could go further in project management without a degree, if i want anyone to take me seriously, i need to finish my degree. whether we like it or not, it adds weight to our word.

and i'm studying behavioral science :)

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 10:37 AM
Fair enough--if there's a professional necessity for it then by all means. Frankly it's not so much the academia that I object to, it's the importance of a degree when the goal is learning. ::shrug::

I agree with Randy on this one....

algunz
05-28-2008, 10:38 AM
The Fern is a 6th/5th grade book. This year I taught them Tom Sawyer, The Watsons Go to Birmingham- 1963, and The Hobbit.

I'm not denying that I am frustratingly tied to the standards and to "teaching the test." But there are about 180 days in the school year. It's sad that you assume every day is worksheets and rote work. Once again we've had this conversation before - the classroom is a different place.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:41 AM
auditing classes for free is a great way to learn. but yeah, you're not going to get the piece of paper showing you have the knowledge that will ultimately be beneficial for your job. i could probably audit classes from a better university, no doubt about it.

the thing i like about my university is it's older, working adults, as well as international students. sure, they didn't get a 1500 on their SATs or anything like that, but they're realistic. their heads aren't in the clouds and they can have discussions about things on a serious level. i didn't feel like i was getting that at ASU when i was taking lower division classes at least. everyone at that age is so idealistic and unrealistic, it makes classrooom discussions unenjoyable for me. my current class is taught by someone from afghanistan and there are people from yugoslavia to japan in my class. i just can't get that kind of outside, worldwide perspective about specific issues without the classroom environment.

and classroom discussion is why i go to school. the instructors are also professionals; they didn't become teachers in the bubble of academia, instead they became teachers as a way to earn extra money in their retirement (generally). i feel like i get a lot more from classroom discussion than any other method of learning. also, i need the structured classroom environment to keep me on track and focused.

the classroom also forces me to study things i don't like and challenges me to examine my beliefs further than i would without the external influence. i used to hate anything to do with math or money until i took economics with a teacher that made me excited about it. then i started listening to marketplace on NPR and now i'm hooked, lol.

my degree also will further my professional course. i work in higher education and therefore i work with a lot of other people who got multiple degrees for free. while i could go further in project management without a degree, if i want anyone to take me seriously, i need to finish my degree. whether we like it or not, it adds weight to our word.

and i'm studying behavioral science :)

Um... well, fuck, alright. Well argued. I guess I'll just shut my big fat mouth. =P

I'm with you on the adults in classes being a bonus though. I refused to take anything but night classes on account of my sleeping disorder, but I was happy to find the lower percentage of asshole kids. Instead I got to be the lone asshole kid, which is just as well 'cause when there's an asshole power struggle things get messy. And anal.

Enough about school already, wasn't I going to lecture you on anatomy?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:44 AM
The Fern is a 6th/5th grade book. This year I taught them Tom Sawyer, The Watsons Go to Birmingham- 1963, and The Hobbit.

I'm not denying that I am frustratingly tied to the standards and to "teaching the test." But there are about 180 days in the school year. It's sad that you assume every day is worksheets and rote work. Once again we've had this conversation before - the classroom is a different place.

Uh huh. The Hobbit, huh? Great. That's what kids need--books about fantasy worlds to augment their backbone of boy-dog metaphorical examinations of the human condition. Always loved how the books assigned try to match the age of the protagonists to the age of the students, otherwise The Fern might be out of print. God wouldn't that be a joy.

Okay, I asked for any example of you Columbia-ing the shit out of your kids. Gimme one of these non-worksheet-non-rote assignments as an example. Better yet, what were your last three essay topics?

algunz
05-28-2008, 10:54 AM
i feel like i get a lot more from classroom discussion than any other method of learning. also, i need the structured classroom environment to keep me on track and focused.

the classroom also forces me to study things i don't like and challenges me to examine my beliefs further than i would without the external influence.


I think these 2 comments are the key to why people go into teaching whether thay have an "overrated" Ivy League education or not. Fostering this kind of environment is entirely possible at any level including 7th grade. When you can challenge your students beyond their own expectations, it can be extraordinary and very fulfilling.

I have no regrets about spending "too much" money on my schooling. My brother would disagree with me though. My education has provided opportunities academic and social that I would NEVER have had otherwise.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 10:55 AM
Ahem. Still waiting for the Columbification of seventh grade English.

algunz
05-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Uh huh. The Hobbit, huh? Great. That's what kids need--books about fantasy worlds to augment their backbone of boy-dog metaphorical examinations of the human condition. Always loved how the books assigned try to match the age of the protagonists to the age of the students, otherwise The Fern might be out of print. God wouldn't that be a joy.

Okay, I asked for any example of you Columbia-ing the shit out of your kids. Gimme one of these non-worksheet-non-rote assignments as an example. Better yet, what were your last three essay topics?

OMG, you really need to stop taking so many fucking drugs. We've had this same god damn conversation.

I really don't feel like sharing a lesson plan, and now you are going to respond with: "So you can't, huh."

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Hahaha, yeah, well, you don't make a very convincing case, honey. But you're right, this is well-tread ground.

So do the kids find The Hobbit useful in coping with the flurry of social, moral, and psychological issues of adolescence? How the fuck is that even allowed on the curriculum--I would think that some religious illiterates would have it banned as anti-Christian, since apparently the faculty isn't stepping up to have it banned as a waste of fucking time and irrelevant to the subject matter, not to mention fucking reality.

bug on your lip
05-28-2008, 11:20 AM
some of you mad peeps know this but i will be applying for a MBA (Masters in Business Administration) this fall...

i'm looking at several Top 10 schools like Harvard & Stanford
also some Top 30 schools like University of North Carolina and UCLA.

and some out of the top 30 like U of Minnesota, Thunderbird (Phoenix) and U of Miami

as far as Business schools they have very solid relationships with companies so the figures on starting salary and % hired upon graduation are studied and reported on..
there is a big drop off past 10...
and a bigger drop off past 30...

so as far as business school and ivy, bigger is better
not saying this applies to every degree but it certainly does for MBAs

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 11:23 AM
I'm sure Harvard and Stanford are relieved to hear they're worthy of your time.




I hear Chico State is crawling with insects, try there.

algunz
05-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Bug, Pepperdine has a great business program.



Randy, The Hobbit is a great book to teach figurative language and character development. It's fun and accessible for them, and I always enjoy bringing in Led Zeppelin. It's the first book we read. It's good to start out easy, and most of them enjoy it once they get past the length of it- which in itself is a huge success with this generation.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 11:34 AM
... character development? Yeah? Haven't read it since I was like eight but I'm pretty positive that's utter horseshit. There's no fucking character development in the three main novels, I don't think Tolkien was capable of anything but outlining maps and detailing enchanted accessories. Also, figurative language is the most horseshit, backwards ass justification for feeding teenagers fucking kids' books. Glad to see you balance out the completely uninteresting, immature, pointless boy-dog novellas by throwing in an imitation novel about hairy midgets and magic.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Hey, here's an idea that for some reason English departments around the fucking country have failed to ever entertain: how about... you assign them books that might actually stimulate their rapidly burgeoning assimilation into the grown world? They're not fucking babies although you bastards insist on treating them like they are to create a lovely self-fulfilling and uneducational prophecy.

Know one way to engage kids in 2008? Pick a fucking book that was written in the last fifty years in THIS reality.

bug on your lip
05-28-2008, 11:38 AM
problem with assimilation is that it makes an ass out of u and me

algunz
05-28-2008, 11:44 AM
Know one way to engage kids in 2008? Pick a fucking book that was written in the last fifty years in THIS reality.

Suggestions please.

I'm teaching summer school. I have a lot more freedom with what we can read in that setting - ironically.

TomAz
05-28-2008, 11:45 AM
I couldn't give a fuck. I'm not paying any of those fucks just to get a degree that means nothing of any importance.

If the degree is unimportant, why bother to lie about it on a resume?

TomAz
05-28-2008, 11:48 AM
also, this story is from 2001:


SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) -- George O'Leary resigned as Notre Dame football coach five days after being hired, admitting he lied about his academic and athletic background.

O'Leary claimed to have a master's degree in education and to have played college football for three years, but checks into his background showed it wasn't true.

"Due to a selfish and thoughtless act many years ago, I have personally embarrassed Notre Dame, its alumni and fans," O'Leary said in a statement released Friday by the university.

A biography released by Notre Dame on Sunday when it announced his hiring said O'Leary received a master's degree from New York University in 1972. O'Leary was a student there but did not receive a degree, said John Beckman, assistant vice president for public affairs at NYU.

O'Leary, 55, also never earned a letter playing football at New Hampshire even though his biography says he earned three. In fact, the school said he never played in a game.

O'Leary said he regretted not telling Notre Dame officials about the inaccuracies before he was hired.

"Many years ago, as a young married father, I sought to pursue my dream as a football coach," he said. "In seeking employment I prepared a resume that contained inaccuracies regarding my completion of course work for a master's degree and also my level of participation in football at my alma mater. These misstatement were never stricken from my resume or biographical sketch in later years."

The sudden resignation was one of the most embarrassing blows to the storied Notre Dame football program, famous for Rockne, Leahy, the Four Horsemen and winning one "for the Gipper."

"The integrity and credibility of Notre Dame is impeccable and with that in mind, I will resign my position as head football coach," O'Leary's statement said. His resignation was effective Thursday.

Notre Dame athletic director Kevin White said O'Leary acknowledged problems in his biographical materials, "including his academic background."

"I understand that these inaccuracies represent a very human failing; nonetheless, they constitute a breach of trust that makes it impossible for us to go forward with our relationship," White said.

The search for a new coach will begin immediately, White said, raising the possibility the AD might again turn his attention to Oakland Raiders coach Jon Gruden.

With recruiting entering a dead period from Monday through Jan. 3, there is no longer the same sense of urgency to hire a coach than there was two weeks ago.

"I can't understand how you could go all those years and not catch or correct it," former Notre Dame coach Ara Parseghian said.

Notre Dame quarterback Carlyle Holiday was surprised by the news.

"It's a big shock," he said in an interview with Sporting News radio on Friday. "I never knew anything could happen like this before. [We've] just got to keep going on and find a new coach in a hurry ... try to get things going."

O'Leary, who left Georgia Tech on Sunday to become coach of the Irish, is listed in his biography in the Georgia Tech media guide as a three-time letter-winner at New Hampshire at offensive line and fullback. It also was included in a biography handed out by Notre Dame after his hiring to replace Bob Davie was announced.

But O'Leary went to New Hampshire only for two years, and never made it into a game.

O'Leary transferred to New Hampshire after two years at the University of Dubuque in Iowa. He said he was on the New Hampshire team in 1967 and 1968, but was unable to play his first year because of mononucleosis, and did not play his second year because of a knee injury.

Casey Robin, an offensive guard for the Irish who completed his eligibility this fall, said he agreed with O'Leary's decision to resign.

"He was talking about loyalty and even honesty, and obviously he didn't live up to that expectation," Robin said. "The team needs some honesty and loyalty from a coach."

Officials with Georgia Tech's athletic department did not immediately return a call Friday seeking comment.

Though O'Leary has said he was not sure how the information got into his biography, a document obtained by The Union Leader of Manchester (N.H) indicates he listed the information when hired as a coach at Syracuse in 1980.

According to the school's sports information department, coaches and athletes personally filled out the biographical forms. The newspaper reported Friday that O'Leary's documents list "Univ. of New Hampshire - 3 yr. lettered" as part of his athletic background.

The sports information department at New Hampshire said it has no record of O'Leary on a football roster, and that it does not keep records of letter winners.

O'Leary is listed as a 1968 graduate of New Hampshire with a degree in physical education.

"I just am surprised and shocked that he had to resign because of something like this," current New Hampshire football coach Sean McDonnell said. "It's awful, awful sad. He's a tremendous football coach. I've followed his career with interest. From the times I've talked to him, I know him as a guy with great integrity."

O'Leary was 52-33 in seven seasons at Georgia Tech, helping it earn five straight bowl invitations for the first time since the 1950s.

BROKENDOLL
05-28-2008, 11:51 AM
just don't open your mouth & you should be fine 05-20-2008, 02:14 PM #164
thelastgreatman
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algunz
05-28-2008, 11:53 AM
Huh BD? I think you might be broken again.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 11:56 AM
Suggestions please.

I'm teaching summer school. I have a lot more freedom with what we can read in that setting - ironically.

Hmm... Stranger In A Strange Land might not be off limits. There's reference to sexuality and they mention characters being nude, but nothing scatalogical really that I can think of. Heinlein's a great author to work off of for young adults: Starship Troopers stimulates genuinely thought-provoking new perspectives on democracy, military duty, war. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress as well. I'd have to think a little harder after I've had some sleep to think of other decent books fit for 13 year olds. Starship Troopers, believe it or not, is probably one of the best books you could assign to developing minds.


If the degree is unimportant, why bother to lie about it on a resume?

Because the world is cruel and unfair and they judge me based on silly factors on a piece of paper.

BROKENDOLL
05-28-2008, 11:59 AM
fuck the degree what about your urine sample?? Ha,ha,ha, that's the first thing I thought too!

BROKENDOLL
05-28-2008, 12:08 PM
Passing a piss test is so easy I'm not even thinking about it. I don't think it's part of the deal anyway though, I assume it would have been mentioned.http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w18/1BROKENDOLL/testresults.png

TomAz
05-28-2008, 12:10 PM
Because the world is cruel and unfair and they judge me based on silly factors on a piece of paper.

Regardless of whether or not you think it's silly, others do not. And it's a well-known fact that a college degree is a requirement for getting certain jobs, it's not like it's some secret code.

where I work if someone were discovered to have lied about something like that they would be out on their ass within the hour. Even many of those people who think a college degree is "silly" would likely agree that honesty is important.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 12:19 PM
Regardless of whether or not you think it's silly, others do not. And it's a well-known fact that a college degree is a requirement for getting certain jobs, it's not like it's some secret code.

where I work if someone were discovered to have lied about something like that they would be out on their ass within the hour. Even many of those people who think a college degree is "silly" would likely agree that honesty is important.

I think that I'm in IT and my English degree or lack thereof is fucking irrelevant. If we're discounting everyone who's resume is the slightest bit untruthful, well fuck, Tom.

Also, I don't really care about the moral angle. I recognize that it's not exactly right. At the same time, I'm an exemplary employee and frankly I have this coming to me.

leo01g
05-28-2008, 12:28 PM
Huh BD? I think you might be broken again.

Algunz your dad teaches at UCI? whats his name? maybe i've had him as a professor

TomAz
05-28-2008, 12:28 PM
Some people might find that stating you have a degree when you actually don't is more than a slight bit untruthful.

But it's not really a moral angle, it's a practical angle. it's more like "If this guy lied to me about this, what else is he going to lie to me about? Do I really want to trust him with __________?"

amyzzz
05-28-2008, 12:37 PM
Recruiters not checking job applicants' education seriously annoys me since I actually did all the work, spent a little money, and got my degree.

CalmerThanYou
05-28-2008, 12:50 PM
Suggestions please.

I'm teaching summer school. I have a lot more freedom with what we can read in that setting - ironically.

On the Road

canexplain
05-28-2008, 12:54 PM
I loved school from the first day I walked in till the last day I walked out …. I think I got “positive” thoughts about school from day one because my teacher worked at night at a club as a dancer and all us boys loved her (this was at Bordeaux France and in front of my house was a field of flowers, everyday that there were flowers growing, I would bring her a small bouquet … and when there were no flowers, we would cut cork off the cork trees and make little figures .. when I graduated from high school (Yokohama, Japan) I knew I was going to conquer the world and I couldn’t wait to take it on) well that didn’t happen, but what wonderful and exciting years …. X****
Sorry there I go and be positive again in this discussion …..

bug on your lip
05-28-2008, 12:57 PM
****ron just kicked mah ass again

TomAz
05-28-2008, 01:00 PM
I loved school from the first day I walked in till the last day I walked out …. I think I got “positive” thoughts about school from day one because my teacher worked at night at a club as a dancer and all us boys loved her (this was at Bordeaux France and in front of my house was a field of flowers, everyday that there were flowers growing, I would bring her a small bouquet … and when there were no flowers, we would cut cork off the cork trees and make little figures .. when I graduated from high school (Yokohama, Japan) I knew I was going to conquer the world and I couldn’t wait to take it on) well that didn’t happen, but what wonderful and exciting years …. X****
Sorry there I go and be positive again in this discussion …..

Ron, you lived all over the world as a child. That must have been fascinating and you are very lucky to have the experiences you have. What kind of job did your father have?

canexplain
05-28-2008, 01:19 PM
It was the good ole military …. I don’t think it is the same now, but back then the military schools were cool because they were considered some of the best schools in their respective countries … so along with us military brats, were the rich kids from the states, and the rich kids from the respective country …. I really think we got a quality education back then at those schools (even though I cant spell worth a crap I know, and I ramble a lot, English was not my major) … for the first 25 years or so, I never lived in the same state or country for more then two years … for some that was hard, for me, hey it was just an opportunity to see new places and meet new people … I could be ready to move in about 4 hours on a whim lol … x****

TomAz
05-28-2008, 01:21 PM
Ron, do you think Randy would make a good military man?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 01:32 PM
My mother threatened to send me to a military school at one point. I kept telling her there was no way in hell I'd ever stay there and she kept ignoring me until finally one day she was serious and I had to stop her for a second to make it clear: under no circumstances would I stay there. Not run away, but ensure that I got kicked out. She flinched briefly, searching my no doubt crazed eyes for some indication of what I had in mind. She tried to claim that they'd never kick me, they'd break me and put me in line. I sighed, put my hands on her shoulders and explained slowly: "Mom, you don't get it. I don't like being told what to do and I fucking hate the military even more than I hate schools. I will do whatever it takes. Get it? I'll burn the fucking place down. I'll poison the whole school. Whatever it's going to take to get it through to you--no cocksucking teachers are pushing me around while I am a free man and this is America. Okay?"

She dropped the subject. To address your question Tom--have you ever lied on a resume at all? Do you think that every person who does is untrustworthy? Is there no line of morality and ethics between what one might do in order to get a job they are qualified for and their behavior in the course of their duties?

Ever fibbed in an interview?

Young blood
05-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Just do it already.


Pussy.

You will probably end up hating the job and quit. If not just break off the lonley hr lady a piece to keep quiet.

TomAz
05-28-2008, 01:39 PM
She dropped the subject. To address your question Tom--have you ever lied on a resume at all? Do you think that every person who does is untrustworthy? Is there no line of morality and ethics between what one might do in order to get a job they are qualified for and their behavior in the course of their duties?

Ever fibbed in an interview?

no, not *every* person no, maybe but why risk it, no.

canexplain
05-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Ron, do you think Randy would make a good military man?

i think randy thinks it might work, but only if he was in charge and no one is ever in charge, or everyone thinks they are in charge .... strange life in some ways .... randy, i said the same thing about going into the military, i swore i was going to go to canada and be a CO, then one weekend i just got a wild hair and joined the air force ... ya never know i guess .... x****

chairmenmeow47
05-28-2008, 01:44 PM
i think the point is while you may have a good reason for lying or not having a degree, someone else doesn't know that. i interview people. i barely know them, so i don't have much to judge them by accept their word and their credentials. if i knew them well, i could overlook a small lie or the fact that they don't have a degree, but i don't know them from adam so why should i just take their word that they'll do a good job? that's all we've got to judge you on. especially when there's hundreds of resumes. easy way to weed them out, get rid of the ones without degrees. or get rid of the ones that lie, or mispell something, or just word things funny. there are 80 million reasons for them not to hire you, don't give them 80 million and one.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 01:44 PM
no, not *every* person no, maybe but why risk it, no.

Okay, so an even better question: why the hell did you even engage this conversation? You know my policies, the result of this exchange can't be surprising. Aren't we just beating our head against the rock here, you impressively ethical bastard you?

Desperate times...


Just do it already.


Pussy.

You will probably end up hating the job and quit. If not just break off the lonley hr lady a piece to keep quiet.

Do what? I got the job, this thread question is resolved. Keep up.


i think randy thinks it might work, but only if he was in charge and no one is ever in charge, or everyone thinks they are in charge .... strange life in some ways .... randy, i said the same thing about going into the military, i swore i was going to go to canada and be a CO, then one weekend i just got a wild hair and joined the air force ... ya never know i guess .... x****

Ron, I think you and I are a little different in terms of our willingness to be reasonable and make the best of a situation. I'm not better, in fact I'm worse. But chain of command does not last very long with me. Call it a mental dysfunction.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 01:45 PM
Ivy, let's you and me run off somewhere and pretend to make babies for a decade or two.

chairmenmeow47
05-28-2008, 01:46 PM
Ivy, let's you and me run off somewhere and pretend to make babies for a decade or two.

just fill out this educational background check and we're good to go! :thu

canexplain
05-28-2008, 01:49 PM
One of the questions that I always hated on a job app( and our lie detector thingy) was “have you ever stole anything from your prior company” … now who hasn’t walked out with a pen in their pocket or something like that … the only thing I ever took from anywhere I worked was a printer but IT had thrown it in the dumpster (worked great, we just go a new operating system and it no longer worked) .. The rule here was, you could not dumpster dive … so was that stealing, I don’t know … that question and “have you ever done HARD drugs lately” what the flip does that mean anyway …. X****

Young blood
05-28-2008, 01:50 PM
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh156/shadow5587/1207235687329.png

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 01:50 PM
just fill out this educational background check and we're good to go! :thu

... okay, you win--you can even have real babies if you want. That was the right answer.

I went to Vocational School for a couple years, and as a result have a certificate verifying I complete the Pussy Mechanic program. Does that work?

TomAz
05-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Okay, so an even better question: why the hell did you even engage this conversation? You know my policies, the result of this exchange can't be surprising. Aren't we just beating our head against the rock here, you impressively ethical bastard you?


You misunderstand me. I'm not calling you unethical, and I don't think what you're doing is uncommon at all. It's very common, very mainstream, very much the American Way.

My only point was a purely practical one: your employer might take a harsh view if you get found out, and is the value added by the resume "enhancement" worth the risk? In other words, do you get the IT job if you say you have a degree in English, and you don't get the IT job if you say you are 6 credits shy of a degree in English? It's a tradeoff.

roberto73
05-28-2008, 01:57 PM
It's tempting to jump into this conversation about education and standards and teaching literature – I taught high school English for ten years, I teach English student teachers in graduate school now, and my areas of expertise for my Ph.D. are standards and teaching literature in high school – but I think I'd be waging an uphill battle.

thestripe
05-28-2008, 01:58 PM
You misunderstand me. I'm not calling you unethical, and I don't think what you're doing is uncommon at all. It's very common, very mainstream, very much the American Way.

My only point was a purely practical one: your employer might take a harsh view if you get found out, and is the value added by the resume "enhancement" worth the risk? In other words, do you get the IT job if you say you have a degree in English, and you don't get the IT job if you say you are 6 credits shy of a degree in English? It's a tradeoff.

Tom, c'mon. Do you think it's going to get that far? This job is going to last 1 week tops. Employer is going to have to make an effort to remember his name when he says "You are fired".

Young blood
05-28-2008, 01:58 PM
I got july 14th in the pool.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:01 PM
You misunderstand me. I'm not calling you unethical, and I don't think what you're doing is uncommon at all. It's very common, very mainstream, very much the American Way.

My only point was a purely practical one: your employer might take a harsh view if you get found out, and is the value added by the resume "enhancement" worth the risk? In other words, do you get the IT job if you say you have a degree in English, and you don't get the IT job if you say you are 6 credits shy of a degree in English? It's a tradeoff.

Ah, fair enough. Indeed getting found out would be disasterous, frankly I'd never even had an employer mention the possibility of degree verification before so it never occurred to me to be concerned. And I suppose this time they didn't either but it was certainly a wake-up call. But Ivy's point is mildly worrisome--some of these gigs are stupid enough to only want applicants who have Bachelor's in Computer Science (I'm sure it sounds perfectly reasonable but trust me, they're practically more trouble than they're worth). My brother and sister both had an easy time rising through the ranks of technology outfits somewhat by virtue of their respectable university degrees in English and Women's Studies respectively, apparently on the grounds that most techies can't communicate for shit and I guess don't know much about women.

But an English background is a legitimately desirable trait for a prospective employee in my field. Naturally that lends itself to the question "well then wouldn't they want to verify it?" It's a logical possibility but I suspect it gets passed over so much because between the resume and interview, my ability to communicate with non-technical users is fairly self-evident. Truth be told, I've never had a co-worker who seemed to grasp how the fuck to talk to the people whose computers they were fixing.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:04 PM
Listen chumps: I kick the fuck out of this geeky shit. Getting fired is so far from a possibility it's silly. I'm young, white, personable (fake it well enough), and could tech each and every one of your balls through your chin.


Hired Geek, And A Bad Motherfucker To Boot. That's gonna be on my business card.

Young blood
05-28-2008, 02:07 PM
1 month + from now.....(july 16th to be exact)

sup randy?

sup.

I heard you got fired the other day?

yup.

why?

I got high.

the end.

thestripe
05-28-2008, 02:08 PM
I'll take July 12th.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:09 PM
Can I take the house action? How many months fair for the cut off?

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 02:12 PM
You guys are all wrong...Randy won't be fired for getting high...he is going to get fired by impregnating all the women he works with......and men.....

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:14 PM
They'd never fire me for that. How would I support all the kids?



Just kidding--I don't support my kids.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 02:15 PM
either that or you might just go around and stick your cock in everyone's ear.

Young blood
05-28-2008, 02:15 PM
Im hoping for the best for you Randly.

Promise to tell when you move on to other opportunities?

The pool will be for shitz and gigglez.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 02:16 PM
Imz hoping for the bezt for you Randly.

Promize to tell when you move on to other opportunitiez?

The pool will be for shitzzz and gigglezzzz.

You needed more z's

ah..there fixed...

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:17 PM
Im hoping for the best for you Randly.

Promise to tell when you move on to other opportunities?

The pool will be for shitz and gigglez.

I don't object to the pool, I just think I deserve to get some action out of it.

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 02:18 PM
I don't object to the pool, I just think I deserve to get some action out of it.

Oh you will. It is called a Colorado Gang Bang beginning with Young Blood and I.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:20 PM
... OH, action. I get it.



Don't ever fucking do that again. That was terrible.

Young blood
05-28-2008, 02:21 PM
im a solo artist

TeamCoachellaHellYeah
05-28-2008, 02:21 PM
At least I took a shot...

CalmerThanYou
05-28-2008, 02:33 PM
I think what everyone is failing to note/ponder is how this will affect his Top Board Posters standing on a weekly basis, and what type of windfall the board will suffer from Randy not having 350+ posts a week...

TomAz
05-28-2008, 02:33 PM
But an English background is a legitimately desirable trait for a prospective employee in my field. Naturally that lends itself to the question "well then wouldn't they want to verify it?" It's a logical possibility but I suspect it gets passed over so much because between the resume and interview, my ability to communicate with non-technical users is fairly self-evident. Truth be told, I've never had a co-worker who seemed to grasp how the fuck to talk to the people whose computers they were fixing.

so wouldn't "6 credits shy of an English degree" combined with "I know this this geek shit inside and out" also be desirable to an employer?

I guess I'm struggling to see how the "enhancement" works as a risk/reward proposition.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Well so far it's worked out pretty well. When factoring risk/reward one must also take into account the desperation of the situation. At a certain point, wouldn't the risk that could only take place after already having the job take automatic backseat to the risk of possibly being ruled out for consideration?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:39 PM
My recruiter actually mentioned that a lot of the jobs they take have a degree requirement, no specific field. At least they require it of any candidates the recruiter submits to them. Not sure if this was actually one of them, but could have been.

TomAz
05-28-2008, 02:42 PM
well I hope you don't get caught. In the meantime, be sure to save a good chunk of your salary.

betao
05-28-2008, 02:42 PM
so when do you start this job, randy? (sorry if i missed it earlier in the thread)

jigsaw
05-28-2008, 02:43 PM
seriously? are you fuckin' serious?

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 02:43 PM
It looks like I'm in the clear (please be merciful, Lord). I have a shitload of bills to pay down, but I'm actually gonna make an effort to do what you mentioned for once. Someone needs to give me a million or so to go shoot that movie sometime soon though.

full on idle
05-28-2008, 03:32 PM
is this thread really six pages long

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 03:36 PM
::shrug:: Frankly, isn't it just easier having a thread to kinda contain the overabundance of bullshit related to me? I'm tabloid fodder.

full on idle
05-28-2008, 03:38 PM
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\:::***shrug***:::///////////////

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 03:39 PM
Why you're just a big ball of alphanumeric sarcasm aren't you today? Way to help the drought. You don't care if people die of dehydration.

full on idle
05-28-2008, 03:41 PM
I don't car about the drought.

thelastgreatman
05-28-2008, 03:42 PM
Foi, do you wanna cuddle? Just a little? Swear I won't honk anything this time.

kitt kat
05-28-2008, 11:02 PM
You should teach college if you want to be a teacher--sorry, I still see your gig as at least 50 percent babysitting

How about you ACTUALLY try and see how difficult teaching pre-teens is before you keep reminding us how "useless" and "stupid" teachers are. You may be book smart, and that's all fine and dandy, but your street-smart stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

BROKENDOLL
05-28-2008, 11:34 PM
::shrug:: Frankly, isn't it just easier having a thread to kinda contain the overabundance of bullshit related to me? I'm tabloid fodder.You're tabloid fodder all right...Now if only we knew who the mudder was.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 02:32 AM
How about you ACTUALLY try and see how difficult teaching pre-teens is before you keep reminding us how "useless" and "stupid" teachers are. You may be book smart, and that's all fine and dandy, but your street-smart stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

There's nothing remotely difficult about it. It's fucking babysitting with a little bit of public speaking thrown in. You babysit, don't you? And lord knows you never shut that big bright equine mouth so I'm sure you're comfortable speaking. Perhaps you should go into teaching, it's the preferred career of dumb women who somehow got convinced they're smart and then on top of that convinced that an intelligence such as hers should be put to use by tackling the monomentally difficult task of telling 13 year olds what to do.

Yes, I'm sure it's SO FUCKING HARD to teach... so hard in fact that one out of four girls from my high school--most of them completely without any academic distinguishment whatsoever when we were all in the grades they'll be teaching--took their C average brains to college and are all now either already teaching or about to start teaching, and they're still dumber than shit.

TomAz
05-29-2008, 06:08 AM
There are no real schemes or plots that your can derive to beat the system and even if there are, its always just way too much work.

the lazy man works the hardest.

roberto73
05-29-2008, 08:30 AM
There's nothing remotely difficult about it. It's fucking babysitting with a little bit of public speaking thrown in. You babysit, don't you? And lord knows you never shut that big bright equine mouth so I'm sure you're comfortable speaking. Perhaps you should go into teaching, it's the preferred career of dumb women who somehow got convinced they're smart and then on top of that convinced that an intelligence such as hers should be put to use by tackling the monomentally difficult task of telling 13 year olds what to do.

Yes, I'm sure it's SO FUCKING HARD to teach... so hard in fact that one out of four girls from my high school--most of them completely without any academic distinguishment whatsoever when we were all in the grades they'll be teaching--took their C average brains to college and are all now either already teaching or about to start teaching, and they're still dumber than shit.

Randy, there's so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin. And I know that attempting to argue a point with someone who refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of any viewpoint other than his own is ultimately pointless, but I've got to at least make this one point:

Surely you don't believe that all teaching is the same. Do you? You say it's easy, and you're right – if you don't know what you're doing. But you know what? The same could be said of just about any profession. I'd have a rip-roaring time as a doctor, checking people's reflexes, playing with the blood pressure cuff, sampling new medications – I'd have a grand old time and it'd be easy as hell, but I'd also make a shitty doctor without the proper training and experience. Anyone who enters a classroom expecting that the job can be done well through lecture and worksheets is fooling himself. Doing the job well – which you don't seem to acknowledge is even possible – is incredibly difficult.

And that's where either the prejudice formed by your own poor educational experience or your ignorance of quality pedagogy reveals itself. I work with student teachers, and my primary focus is helping them find ways to be meaningful, to be insightful, to be challenging, to make students' time in the classroom count. We spend a lot of time at the beginning of the year dissecting what the hallmarks of shitty teachers are, and they all identify the same things you do: teachers who babysit, who don't use good literature, who rely on long-winded lectures and antiquated worksheets, who require students to write in a rigid format, who don't make any effort to get students to think about anything that matters. So we work hard at what we do because we recognize the very same deficiencies you do and don't want to repeat them.

The problem, though, is that you seem to equate all teaching with bad teaching, without seeing that there's an alternative. If you want to lay blame anywhere, lay it at the feet of teacher education programs who don't teach their candidates anything that's worth a damn. I work my ass off because I want to make sure that the new teachers who go through my class enter the profession with the drive and the passion and the tools to actually make a positive difference. Teachers aren't all the same, and your generalizations are insulting because they don't seem to be rooted in any real knowledge other than your own limited experience.

Teaching well is hard, and unless you've tried it, you can't claim to know what you're talking about.

algunz
05-29-2008, 08:32 AM
Algunz your dad teaches at UCI? whats his name? maybe i've had him as a professor

Alejandro Morales - he teaches Chicano film & literature in Social Sciences.


Thank you for the suggestions Randy. I will look at them, although science fiction is not one of my most favorite genres. Stranger in a Strange Land might be a good one, as long as I can keep it on the DL and also do one of the required books like Fahrenheit 451. One of the few sci fi books I have enjoyed. Anymore suggestions would be appreciated from any of you - not just LGM.


Thank you roberto73. Kitt Katt chimed in and I thank her for it also. Of course now that I think about it, this discussion is so overdone. It's like religion - you are just not likely to change someone's mind.

JSam67
05-29-2008, 08:35 AM
Well, both my parents are teachers, and I know they work really hard. But there are bad teachers who don't prepare like they do. So I'd say teaching might not be the hardest job in the world, but being a legitimately good teacher is.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 08:40 AM
Randy, there's so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin. And I know that attempting to argue a point with someone who refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of any viewpoint other than his own is ultimately pointless, but I've got to at least make this one point:

Surely you don't believe that all teaching is the same. Do you? You say it's easy, and you're right – if you don't know what you're doing. But you know what? The same could be said of just about any profession. I'd have a rip-roaring time as a doctor, checking people's reflexes, playing with the blood pressure cuff, sampling new medications – I'd have a grand old time and it'd be easy as hell, but I'd also make a shitty doctor without the proper training and experience. Anyone who enters a classroom expecting that the job can be done well through lecture and worksheets is fooling themselves. Doing the job well – which you don't seem to acknowledge is even possible – is incredibly difficult.

And that's where either the prejudice formed by your own poor educational experience or your ignorance of quality pedagogy reveals itself. I work with student teachers, and my primary focus is helping them find ways to be meaningful, to be insightful, to be challenging, to make students' time in the classroom count. We spend a lot of the time at the beginning of the year dissecting what the hallmarks of shitty teachers are, and they all identify the same things you do: teachers who babysit, who don't use good literature, who rely on long-winded lectures and antiquated worksheets, who require them to write in a rigid format, who don't make any effort to get students to think about anything that matters. So we work hard at what we do because we recognize the very same deficiencies you do and don't want to repeat them.

The problem, though, is that you seem to equate all teaching with bad teaching, without seeing that there's an alternative. If you want to lay blame anywhere, lay it at the feet of teacher education programs who don't teach their candidates anything that's worth a damn. I work my ass off because I want to make sure that the new teachers who go through my class enter the profession with the drive and the passion and the tools to actually make a positive difference. Teachers aren't all the same, and your generalizations are insulting because they don't seem to be rooted in any real knowledge other than your own limited experience.

Rob, we were kinda talking about 7th grade public school English teachers. If you want to explain to me the circumstances in which that's a real hard course load to teach, well, go nuts.

You're arguing that teaching subjects any idiot can grasp isn't as easy as I make it out to be, eh? Okay, aside from inner-city schools, exactly where is the hardship? It's teaching. It's not like they actually have to generate anything. "Those who can..." and all that shit.

I know you work with teachers so I'm sure you know a lot of teachers that are good people and maybe even in a few rare cases actually good teachers, and you can call my experience biased but I don't understand where the big beef is. You know yourself that these teachers are pinned down by the standards passed down from government, right? They don't even have the option of doing anything inventive a lot of the time, right? So then claim it's not their fault, okay, fine, I'll accept that--it doesn't fucking change whether or not it's a hard job.

Digging ditches is a hard job. Flying jets is a hard job. Being a surgeon is a hard job. Public school teacher fucking isn't, and arguing that it is is just playing into this goddamn martyr routine they've been pimping for years. Fuck that noise.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Alejandro Morales - he teaches Chicano film & literature in Social Sciences.


Thank you for the suggestions Randy. I will look at them, although science fiction is not one of my most favorite genres. Stranger in a Strange Land might be a good one, as long as I can keep it on the DL and also do one of the required books like Fahrenheit 451. One of the few sci fi books I have enjoyed. Anymore suggestions would be appreciated from any of you - not just LGM.


Oh and roberto73, any support in this discussion would be helpful. Kitt Katt chimed in and I thank her for it. Of course now that I think about it, this discussion is so overdone. It's like religion - you are just not likely to change someone's mind.

I don't understand how The Hobbit appeals to you more than science fiction, you know, as an educator. Farenheit 451 is trash compared to those three, you need to read better sci-fi.

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 08:47 AM
How about you ACTUALLY try and see how difficult teaching pre-teens is before you keep reminding us how "useless" and "stupid" teachers are. You may be book smart, and that's all fine and dandy, but your street-smart stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

at least randy would teach the kids about the space program :rotfl

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 08:49 AM
Now that you point it out Ivy, I don't think I ever called teachers "useless" at all.

Hey Kat--did any of those hard-working teachers ever try to show you when quotation marks are appropriate? How about the rules for hyphenates so that you wouldn't fuck up "street smart" again?

Tell everyone how you got a perfect score on the SATs when you were 13, Kat, you fucking shithead.

algunz
05-29-2008, 09:45 AM
I don't understand how The Hobbit appeals to you more than science fiction, you know, as an educator. Farenheit 451 is trash compared to those three, you need to read better sci-fi.

It's not about appeal it's about required reading. As you said, unfortunately to a degree I'm tied to the standards and an approved reading list. As far as the 8th grade reading list, The Hobbit, Fahrenheit, Anne Frank, Midsummer's Night Dream, and Call of the Wild are the titles that appeal to me most, not because of the books necessarily, but because of what I can teach them supplementally.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 09:49 AM
How many books are on these approved reading lists by the way, I've always fucking wondered that. Every English teacher blamed the list. How fucking short is this list?

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 09:50 AM
i liked farenheight. but i'm not a big sci-fi person. i always compare the TV show "friends" to the parlour family in farenheight.

it's hard to assign difficult reading to that age group, i feel for you teachers. you want to be challenging, but you still want them to be engaged. i read a lot of "adult reading" when i was a kid. and while i was able to get into some of it, i feel like i didn't really understand a lot of it until i got older. it's like trying to do a high school theatre production of "death of a salesman". sure, you may get the kid to act like willy loman to an extant, but there's no way in hell a 16 year old knows what it really feels like to be at the end of your days like that.

i'm glad i re-read a lot of the books i read in school as an adult. i appreciated them a whole lot more :)

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 10:02 AM
Fuck it, give them Catch-22. Never too young, only profanity is goddamn, son of a bitch, and bastard. Mention of whores and clothes being taken off but nothing remotely pornographic. You do that and I'll respect you, Gunz.

algunz
05-29-2008, 10:07 AM
How many books are on these approved reading lists by the way, I've always fucking wondered that. Every English teacher blamed the list. How fucking short is this list?

Grade 7:
Beowulf
Catherine Called Birdy
Dragonwings
Farewell to Manzanar
Hatchet
Homesick
I, Juan de Pareja
Julie of the Wolves
Maniac Magee
Of Nightingale's Weep
Samurai Tale
Shabanu
Taming of the Shrew
The Acorn People
The Captive
The Hobbit
The Miracle Worker
The Old Man and the Sea
The Outsiders
The Watsons Go to Birmingham - 1963
Tom Sawyer
White Fang

Grade 8:
Across Five Aprils
A MIdsummer's Night Dream
Among Friends
Fahrenheit 451
Johnny Tremain
My Antonia
Sarah Bishop
Scarlett Pimpernill
Summer of My German Soldier
The Call of the Wild
The Diary of Anne Frank
The Good Earth
The Life of a Slave
The Pigman
The Slave Dancer
The Witch of Blackbird Pond
Walk Two Moons

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 10:13 AM
So you have to pick one off that list and can pick another not on the list, do I have it correctly? That shit is horrible. Is that for the regular year or just summer school?

algunz
05-29-2008, 10:19 AM
This is for the regular school year. I try to read at least 4 books with the kids - one per quarter. I always sneak in one that is not on the list. This year we read Into Thin Air. Not a great book, but the discussions and writing opportunities are really fun for the kids.

Summer school allows a little more freedom. I'm teaching 8th grade. We have time to read 2, so I'll probably do Fahrenheit and I need one other. Probably not sci fi because I'd like a different genre.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 10:20 AM
I just told you--Catch-22.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 10:21 AM
If you back out because it's too hard, well, way to prove I'm wrong. =)

algunz
05-29-2008, 10:27 AM
Sorry I hadn't seen that post. I love that book. It might be a high school book, but fuck 'em. It probably won't hurt the kids to read a book twice.

canexplain
05-29-2008, 10:35 AM
Walden and Civil Disobedience: A New Riverside Edition

The Cry for Justice: An Anthology of the Great Social Protest Lit.



:) x****

CalmerThanYou
05-29-2008, 10:41 AM
Walden was amazing.

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 10:58 AM
Randy, you make it sound like all your teachers were shitty. Throughout jr high and high school, almost all my teachers were excellent, although that may be because I was usually in accelerated classes. The "regular" classes more often than not had the shittier teachers, which is kind of sad for the average kids.

thelastgreatman
05-29-2008, 10:59 AM
Amy, your idea of an excellent teacher is probably just them not beating you like your husband does.

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 11:15 AM
Rob, we were kinda talking about 7th grade public school English teachers. If you want to explain to me the circumstances in which that's a real hard course load to teach, well, go nuts.

You're arguing that teaching subjects any idiot can grasp isn't as easy as I make it out to be, eh? Okay, aside from inner-city schools, exactly where is the hardship? It's teaching. It's not like they actually have to generate anything. "Those who can..." and all that shit.

I know you work with teachers so I'm sure you know a lot of teachers that are good people and maybe even in a few rare cases actually good teachers, and you can call my experience biased but I don't understand where the big beef is. You know yourself that these teachers are pinned down by the standards passed down from government, right? They don't even have the option of doing anything inventive a lot of the time, right? So then claim it's not their fault, okay, fine, I'll accept that--it doesn't fucking change whether or not it's a hard job.

Digging ditches is a hard job. Flying jets is a hard job. Being a surgeon is a hard job. Public school teacher fucking isn't, and arguing that it is is just playing into this goddamn martyr routine they've been pimping for years. Fuck that noise. Geez, and all this "yada-yada-yada-blah,blah,blah" comes from someone who's unemployed! How hard is that, Randy?

TomAz
05-29-2008, 11:17 AM
BD were you dropped on your head as a child?

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 11:18 AM
That would explain her name.

TomAz
05-29-2008, 11:19 AM
among other things.

algunz
05-29-2008, 11:23 AM
Walden and Civil Disobedience: A New Riverside Edition

The Cry for Justice: An Anthology of the Great Social Protest Lit.



:) x****

Excellent suggestions. But please keep in mind that these are 8th graders that are in summer school because they flunked out. I want to challenge them, but I don't want to scare them away from reading forever.

canexplain
05-29-2008, 12:16 PM
i was just joking with ya gal ..... x**** interesting reading though for us big kids

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 12:19 PM
BD were you dropped on your head as a child? Tom, funny you should ask that. As a matter of fact, yes, I did fall on my noggin as a child...off the back patio. I also somehow managed to get my head stuck between the bars on a railing for about 20 minutes once...very traumatic! Would you care to hear the story of being chased by a boy in the 4th grade, in which I ended up running face first into a telephone pole while trying to escape his worldly charms?


That would explain her name. Not quite. It comes from a period in my life when I experienced the pain of losing my mother/best friend. She had always taught me to accept people for who and how they are. Unfortunately, she didn't teach the part of how cruel and judgemental people could be when you're down. I ended up spending alot of time with my guitar that year as a form of self-healing and wrote and recorded a song, "The Brokendoll..." And no, it wasn't all Emo-like. Actually, it made me a stronger person who accepts myself for who and how I am...Funny, no matter how much I accept those here, that I'm still that Brokendoll, huh? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w18/1BROKENDOLL/152028ttkalzbjvt.gif

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 12:22 PM
I was dropped on my head too. I lost my two front teeth and broke my nose.

My brother was also dropped on his head (fell off the slide stairs at McD's). It seems to be a pattern in my family.

TomAz
05-29-2008, 12:23 PM
Count your blessings BD. at least you're not garrett.

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 12:24 PM
yay breakfast food!

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 12:39 PM
i want a "have you been dropped on your head" thread NOW! lol

amy, were you actually dropped on your head or did you fall or something?

i guess when i was a baby at crawling age, my older brothers wanted me to come watch cartoons with them upstairs. my mom said that was fine, but that they had to close the door. of course they didn't. i guess my mom was chopping vegetables in the kitchen when she saw me come bouncing down every step of the stairs. my brother to this day feels AWFUL about it, i don't remember though.

maybe i've told this story before, but i also was in gymnastics and around 2nd grade i was doing vault with my team. we were being spotted on vault and then after our turn, we were to practice backflips in this foam pit. the gymnasium was a old car garage on 67th ave and northern that had been converted to a gymnasium. so the floor was completely cement and things weren't as padded as they are now. there was a hole cut in the cement floor filled with big yellow foam blocks. you stood on the edge of the cement and practiced flips and such into the foam pit.

well, i remember going to do the flip, but my dad was watching and he says that i took a step forward before flipping. this caused me to move forward and land smack on the middle of my head on the corner of the cement. i slid into the pit and my dad stood up MORTIFIED i guess.

i used to think getting hurt meant you were in trouble though, so i just held my hand to my head and stood in line for the vault again. the whole time my dad is just watching in horror, i guess he was the only one to see. when it was my turn to vault, i took my hand off my head and saw the blood and started crying. it was only 4 stitches, but man, that fucking hurt.

Blinken
05-29-2008, 12:44 PM
I was watching Dumbo when i was 3 or 4, and it was on of those old TV sets that were encased in wood. Somehow, no one has figured it out to this day, I hit my head on the corner of the TV and needed 7 stiches.

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 12:45 PM
That reminds me, I tried that vaulting shit once too...I forgot to jump after the pre-run part.

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 12:46 PM
Hmm, if I recall, Dumbo was able to fly, no? It would be my guess that you thought the same thing.

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 12:49 PM
I recommend everyone write a song about their falls. You'll feel better.

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 12:49 PM
That reminds me, I tried that vaulting shit once too...I forgot to jump after the pre-run part.

ha ha ha ha, yeah, that's kind of important ;)

it's easy to hesitate though. after breaking my head, i hesitated a LOT when doing anything backwards on floor runs, which is one of the many reasons i'm not a 5 foot gymnast right now lol.

and 7 stitches, blinken, OUTCH!!!

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 12:53 PM
ha ha ha ha, yeah, that's kind of important ;)

it's easy to hesitate though. after breaking my head, i hesitated a LOT when doing anything backwards on floor runs, which is one of the many reasons i'm not a 5 foot gymnast right now lol.

and 7 stitches, blinken, OUTCH!!! Ivy, there may just be 2 other reasons you're not a gymnast...Think balance. :)-

TomAz
05-29-2008, 01:02 PM
I recommend everyone write a song about their falls. You'll feel better.

Well since I was a child, I don't think too good
Yeah ever since I was a chile. I don't think too good
Dropped on my head by my mama
Now it feels just like wood

I went to see the doctor, said man give me a cure
Said I went to see the doctor, please man give me a cure
He said I aint got no cure for ugly
And ugly you is for sure

I went to see the preacher man, said say me a prayer
Oh I went to see the preacher man, said say me a prayer
He said get out of here devil woman
even god can't fix your hair

Everthing I try, seems like I got to lose
Oh everthing I try, seems like I got to lose
I can't help that I'm dumb and I'm ugly
I got the brokendoll blues

BROKENDOLL
05-29-2008, 01:11 PM
TomAz, are you capable of playing a harmonica? I have a great idea we can share when we're at the senior center one day!

canexplain
05-29-2008, 02:19 PM
i got my stomach pumped 8 times when i was little my mom said ... mostly from drinking finger nail polish ... maybe thats why i dont like it on ladies even today ... i also set my parents bedroom on fire ... they said i crawled into the living room and said "pretty lights" .. i also had two houses burn up, but i was an adult then lol ... oh i forgot, one reason i think i am usually positive, when i was born, i was a 'blue baby' ... i had a vein growing around my windpipe and they couldnt remove it without taking out my windpipe, so no go ... doc said there was no way i would live past 8 years old, i guess i am living on 52 years of borrowed time .... life is good .... x****

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 02:20 PM
i got my stomach pumped 8 times when i was little my mom said ... mostly from drinking finger nail polish ... maybe thats why i dont like it on ladies even today ... i also set my parents bedroom on fire ... they said i crawled into the living room and said "pretty lights" .. i also had two houses burn up, but i was an adult then lol ... oh i forgot, one reason i think i am usually positive, when i was born, i was a 'blue baby' ... i had a vein growing around my windpipe and they couldnt remove it without taking out my windpipe, so no go ... doc said there was no way i would live past 8 years old, i guess i am living on 52 years of borrowed time .... life is good .... x****

omg, could you imagine being the parents in that situation?!

glad you're still here :)

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 03:18 PM
Ivy, my babysitter put my hands on the monkey bar and let me hang while she tied my shoe. I was 3. I fell down, so yeah, I guess I actually fell. What else was I going to do though? Totally her fault.

TomAz
05-29-2008, 03:27 PM
no. you're the one who let go. not the baby sitter. take responsibility for your actions amy.

amyzzz
05-29-2008, 03:38 PM
I guess I could've kicked her in the face and jumped off and landed on my feet. 'Zat better?

chairmenmeow47
05-29-2008, 03:54 PM
Ivy, my babysitter put my hands on the monkey bar and let me hang while she tied my shoe. I was 3. I fell down, so yeah, I guess I actually fell. What else was I going to do though? Totally her fault.

jesus christ! i'd blame her too! that's kinda like how my mom's dad gave her giant metal scissors to cut her paper dolls with as a kid. she ended up hurting her eye and is permanently far-sided as a result, but could have been much worse.

leo01g
05-29-2008, 04:48 PM
Alejandro Morales - he teaches Chicano film & literature in Social Sciences.


Thank you for the suggestions Randy. I will look at them, although science fiction is not one of my most favorite genres. Stranger in a Strange Land might be a good one, as long as I can keep it on the DL and also do one of the required books like Fahrenheit 451. One of the few sci fi books I have enjoyed. Anymore suggestions would be appreciated from any of you - not just LGM.


Thank you roberto73. Kitt Katt chimed in and I thank her for it also. Of course now that I think about it, this discussion is so overdone. It's like religion - you are just not likely to change someone's mind.

thats cool, upper division chicano classes. I've only taken one chicano studies class but didnt really like it.

algunz
05-29-2008, 09:06 PM
What was the class and who was the professor?

leo01g
05-29-2008, 09:23 PM
Her last name was Garcia-Bedolla and it was Chicano Studies 62. The books we had to read were interesting though

algunz
05-29-2008, 09:40 PM
That's a bummer. I haven't met her, but I believe she is one of the faculty members that my dad and I plan on interviewing for a documentary we are working on.

If the books were interesting what made the class bad - just a boring lecturer?

PineapplePete
05-30-2008, 04:45 PM
This year I read:

Macbeth, 1984, I Capture the Castle, Jane Eyre, Brave New World, The Importance of Being Earnest, Canterbury Tales, some Shaw for good measure, and an extensive poetry unit including Shakespeare, Marvell, Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Tennyson, Browning, Arnold, Yeats, and others.

thelastgreatman
05-30-2008, 04:49 PM
Sigh... fucking hate the books they assign. The only way to get a book written since 1945 is if it's fucking Animal Farm, or 1984, Farenheit 451 or Brave New World--less than 200 pages and a fucking allegory.

schoolofruckus
05-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Show of hands - who believes Pineapple Pete could read a stop sign, let alone a novel? Anybody? Anybody? Hands, please.

Oh, wow. Nobody. How about that.

Randy:

http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/upload/thumb/c/c2/200px-Atlas_shrugged_cover.jpg

PineapplePete
05-30-2008, 04:53 PM
Well, it is a British Literature course. What would you suggest Randy?

thelastgreatman
05-30-2008, 04:57 PM
Atlas Shrugged is fucking unreadable literature and intolerably shitty philosophy. Goddamn you, Gabe.

Among British Literature, Pete? Why the fuck are you taking a British Lit course in high school?

PassiveTheory
05-30-2008, 04:58 PM
Keats and Yeats are on your side...

PineapplePete
05-30-2008, 05:03 PM
That's the English II Honors course. This is at a private school, by the way.

thelastgreatman
05-30-2008, 05:09 PM
Well it's good to know private schools still suck cock like the other ones. Pete, answer my fucking question. Were you asking for just Brit suggestions or what? If so, I don't have any.

PineapplePete
05-30-2008, 05:12 PM
I was asking to see if you could make a better course outline. What would you add/remove to make it a better course.

schoolofruckus
05-30-2008, 05:14 PM
So you don't believe what "Atlas Shrugged" is selling, but you buy that Pineapple Pete actually read (and, more to the point, was physically capable of reading) all those books?

Hannahrain
05-30-2008, 05:16 PM
Well, he DID get an A+ on that report he did on Goodnight, Moon last year. So.