PDA

View Full Version : A Troubling Development for Live Music?



luckyface
05-22-2008, 10:58 AM
Madonna is now being paid by ticket resellers (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121028659029779015.html?mod=blog).

What do you all think?

StubHub Enlisted in Resale
Of Madonna Concert Tickets
By ETHAN SMITH
May 9, 2008; Page B6

Madonna's coming concert tour is to feature what appears to be a first in the concert business: An official ticket reseller that will peddle seats at marked-up prices to fans who couldn't get them through normal channels.

In the U.S. and Canada, eBay Inc.'s StubHub will serve as the "official fan-to-fan ticket marketplace." In Europe, the role will be filled by Viagogo Ltd., a ticket reseller that also will sell "VIP packages" -- higher-priced tickets that include amenities like backstage passes and meetings with performers.

The endorsements highlight the growing popularity and influence of so-called secondary ticketing companies, which let both fans and brokers sell tickets to others at prices that often far exceed their face values. Concert promoters and artists have long complained that they are locked out of the secondary marketplace, putting money in the pockets of speculators and middlemen who aren't involved in staging or promoting concerts.

Sports teams and leagues have entered partnerships with secondary ticketing companies. But executives at Viagogo and StubHub called this the first time a major music artist has officially embraced the secondary market on this scale.

"It's the future of the ticketing business," said Chuck La Vallee, StubHub's head of business development for music. "Promoters have always complained that we don't have skin in the game."

Terms weren't disclosed, but people close to the deal said Viagogo is paying promoter Live Nation Inc. and Madonna a flat fee, while StubHub is offering a percentage of revenue on top of a fee. Despite the official status of the two companies, fans would still be able to buy and sell tickets on other online marketplaces, such as TicketsNow, RazorGator or Craigslist. But Viagogo and StubHub will be promoted in emails to fans and other marketing materials.

The tour is the first for Madonna since she announced a $120 million partnership with Live Nation in which the promoter is to participate financially in nearly every aspect of the pop star's career. The album she is promoting, "Hard Candy," is the last under her record contract with Warner Music Group Corp. The "Sticky and Sweet" tour is to start in August, with nine dates in Europe, followed by 18 U.S. shows in the fall. There will be several stadium shows in the U.S., including at Los Angeles' Dodger Stadium -- far larger venues than the arenas Madonna has historically performed in. Prices weren't announced.

Live Nation's contract in the U.S. with IAC/InterActiveCorp's Ticketmaster expires at the end of this year. At that point Live Nation will begin selling its own tickets for its concerts. Arrangements like the one with Viagogo -- in which Viagogo handles a portion of the so-called primary ticketing, in addition to resales -- could become more common on Live Nation tours once Ticketmaster is out of the picture.

kreutz2112
05-22-2008, 11:14 AM
what a cunt.

crazzz2007
05-22-2008, 11:17 AM
ya, but there is a silver lining here. anything to take business away from ticketmaster is a great thing. fuck ticketmaster.

paulb
05-22-2008, 11:28 AM
http://www.beastiemania.com/gigog/images/850410-ticket.jpg

thats how much tix should be...and you get Beastie Boys opening.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 11:28 AM
meh, at least there's a more legitimate supplier filling the gap. obviously people are willing to pay these prices, i know if i had the money i would be for certain artists and i'd much rather pay an established seller than some random dude off the internet.

luckyface
05-22-2008, 11:34 AM
In its current form, this is basically nothing more than a marketing deal. However, do you see this as the first step for large resellers to get a footing in the ticket selling business? The last thing I would want to have to deal with is one of these companies controlling the majority of tickets.

crazzz2007
05-22-2008, 11:47 AM
meh, at least there's a more legitimate supplier filling the gap. obviously people are willing to pay these prices, i know if i had the money i would be for certain artists and i'd much rather pay an established seller than some random dude off the internet.

why would you rather give your money to a big corporation rather than an individual? doesn't make sense at all.

JebusLives
05-22-2008, 12:15 PM
ya, but there is a silver lining here. anything to take business away from ticketmaster is a great thing. fuck ticketmaster.

I think ticketmaster still gets the original price, after these greedy oportunistic bastards have taken their ill-gotten share.

You know what? Fine. You people have alienated the CD-buying public, and now you're going to alienate your concert-going demographic too (the only way many artists are making money at this point). Good idea, asshats. I'll not be in attendence at any of these shows.

Thanks again, Trent, for the NIN presale.

hawkingvsreeve
05-22-2008, 12:23 PM
I think ticketmaster still gets the original price, after these greedy oportunistic bastards have taken their ill-gotten share.

Yeah, that is what it looks like. Or that is how I interpret it. Basically it's Madonna saying: "Yeah, I am cool with people who aren't necessarily my fans buying up all the good tickets, which could have gone to true fans, and selling them at incredibly inflated values. As long as I get a cut."

Fuck you Madonna. Hard Candy blows, btw.

betao
05-22-2008, 12:34 PM
i'd rather pay ticketbastard's service fees than pay for tickets at twice the price of their face value

and btw - the "service fees/convenience charges" for stubhub are just as bad. When I bought my radiohead pit ticket from stubhub, priced at 179, the total came to 212. Ridiculous.

luckyface
05-22-2008, 12:35 PM
As bad as TM is, Stubhub is about 10 times worse in my book.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 12:53 PM
why would you rather give your money to a big corporation rather than an individual? doesn't make sense at all.

big corporations pay the salary of many individuals, including me. i'm not saying the industry shouldn't be regulated, but i am more willing to pay my money to a reputable dealer (be it an established ebay seller i trust or a fortune 500 company) than to joe schmo on craig's list.

makes perfect sense to me.

i don't understand why this is SO offensive either. people have been scapling since tickets for concerts have been available for sale. the idea of legitimizing ticket resellers is a good idea to me. i don't know the history of this company in particular, but we can't pretend like scapling doesn't exist so why not regulate the market? let's actually learn something from the drug war here :)

TickleMeElmo
05-22-2008, 01:25 PM
i don't understand why this is SO offensive either. people have been scapling since tickets for concerts have been available for sale. the idea of legitimizing ticket resellers is a good idea to me. i don't know the history of this company in particular, but we can't pretend like scapling doesn't exist so why not regulate the market? let's actually learn something from the drug war here :)

Scalpers basically fuck over real fans just to make some profit off of someone else's show. It just seems like the big wigs want a piece of the pie too so they made this deal. Sure, the money may be going to someone else who deserves it more but the fans are still getting fucked over. Most people dislike scalping so big companies getting involved and doing the exact same thing isn't helping.

SoulDischarge
05-22-2008, 01:33 PM
C.R.E.A.M.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Scalpers basically fuck over real fans just to make some profit off of someone else's show. It just seems like the big wigs want a piece of the pie too so they made this deal. Sure, the money may be going to someone else who deserves it more but the fans are still getting fucked over. Most people dislike scalping so big companies getting involved and doing the exact same thing isn't helping.

what exactly constitues a fan? i'm genuinely curious.

should there be a discography test for every concert to test the ticket buyers on whether or not they are "true fans" and then, only then, can they buy tickets? are fans also people who only have high-speed internet access at the time tickets go on sale? it sounds like you also must be poor to be a fan.

that's not how it works. the music industry is an industry like any others. they have a product. some people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for the top quality product. so why shouldn't there be a way for them to to purchase this top quality product from a reputable dealer rather than an unregulated random seller?

music is a hard industry to regulate, because like religion, the industry has a "moral" element that doesn't come into play with as many other industries. so where do we draw the line? should you get in free to an artist's shows if you've bought all their albums and have memorized all the lyrics? or should have to pay more if you've never heard of the band? or what if you're there for just the opening act, should you not be allowed to buy tickets at ALL because you're not a "true fan" of the headlining act?

if concert tickets are selling out as quickly as they are for many of these artists, there is obviously a demand for the product and it's obvious that they could charge higher prices. but they're not, they're only charging higher prices to buy the tickets from a resale for special "perks", such as sitting in the front row or even meeting the artist. and they are still selling many other tickets at a "reasonable/normal" price. why is that so bad? so what if rich people get something "better" than the rest of us? ever heard of "first class"?

and i personally don't agree with scalping because i don't trust the "black market". i don't have a moral judgement on it other than i like that there are currently regulations on how many tickets you can buy for a lot of shows to prevent people from buying out the show, and it sounds like those regulations would still be in place for legitimized resellers.

perhaps the higher revenue from large, but fewer ticket sales such as these could go towards higher quality tours? or towards the band being able to tour more cities?

Astrid
05-22-2008, 01:59 PM
this disgusts me. its just a foul display of capitalism mutating something that is supposed to be a personal experience. i have to process this nonsense for awhile...

amyzzz
05-22-2008, 02:06 PM
So I guess I'm too poor to go to concerts.

Sexecutioner
05-22-2008, 02:38 PM
haha, i love how they market stubhub as an "official fan-to-fan ticket marketplace." more like scalper-to-fan.


Yeah, that is what it looks like. Or that is how I interpret it. Basically it's Madonna saying: "Yeah, I am cool with people who aren't necessarily my fans buying up all the good tickets, which could have gone to true fans, and selling them at incredibly inflated values. As long as I get a cut."


you pretty much hit the nail on the head. this is fucked. while some bands actually try to fight scalping and reserve the good seats for their true fans, there are some like madonna who dont give a fuck about their fans and just want to make even more money, cuz they obviously werent rich enough as it is. that deal she signed with live nation is another example of that...

that deal shows how little she cares about the actual music. same with jay-z, he just inked a similar deal. while there are artists out there trying to take the music and put it back in the hands of the actual musicians, there are these fuckin sell outs who are just in it for money, and dont care if they have any rights to the music they fucking wrote. they sign away EVERYTHING to these gigantic fucking companies and say bye bye to any control they might have had over the music they created. but it doesnt matter, cuz they just cashed in, so who fuckin cares.


i don't understand why this is SO offensive either. people have been scapling since tickets for concerts have been available for sale. the idea of legitimizing ticket resellers is a good idea to me. i don't know the history of this company in particular, but we can't pretend like scapling doesn't exist so why not regulate the market? let's actually learn something from the drug war here :)

please, dont ever compare scalping to the war on drugs. they are not the same at all.


what exactly constitues a fan? i'm genuinely curious.

should there be a discography test for every concert to test the ticket buyers on whether or not they are "true fans" and then, only then, can they buy tickets? are fans also people who only have high-speed internet access at the time tickets go on sale? it sounds like you also must be poor to be a fan.


ill tell you how you know a true fan...the true fans are the ones who get off their lazy asses to get tickets the minute they go onsale, instead of hearing about a show the week before and buying front row tickets at 3 times the value, just cuz they can. you dont need high speed access, and you dont need to be poor. you just need to put in effort. no internet? go to a ticketmaster outlet saturday morning and wait in line. if you will be out of town, have a friend get you one. if there werent all the scalpers buying up the tickets right away for the rich, lazy asses, there would be a lot more to go around for everybody in the general onsale.

crazzz2007
05-22-2008, 02:48 PM
the music industry is an industry like any others. they have a product. some people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for the top quality product. so why shouldn't there be a way for them to to purchase this top quality product from a reputable dealer rather than an unregulated random seller?


i don't see how concert tickets should be a regulated industry. this isn't law or medicine or a dangerous or harmful product. it's just a fukin concert ticket.

millions of people sell tens of thousands of products on sites like ebay and craigslist, yet you propose that concert tickets should be regulated so that only "reputable" sources sell them. what the hell are you talking about?

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 03:00 PM
please, dont ever compare scalping to the war on drugs. they are not the same at all.

they are similar. they are both offering products at a high markup on the black market because there is a demand. instead of ignoring the black market, why not make it legit? maybe this company isn't the best way to go about it, but if we ignore scapling like we ignore drug sales, they aren't just going to go away. the black market is there and has more risks than if there was a legal alternative. not to mention that the artists and the people who are putting on the tours probably want some of that money instead of random people who just happened to buy tickets quickly to resell. no, they're not the same, but they are similar.


ill tell you how you know a true fan...the true fans are the ones who get off their lazy asses to get tickets the minute they go onsale, instead of hearing about a show the week before and buying front row tickets at 3 times the value, just cuz they can. you dont need high speed access, and you dont need to be poor. you just need to put in effort. no internet? go to a ticketmaster outlet saturday morning and wait in line. if you will be out of town, have a friend get you one. if there werent all the scalpers buying up the tickets right away for the rich, lazy asses, there would be a lot more to go around for everybody in the general onsale.

no, if tickets were priced at the VALUE THE PUBLIC IS WILLING TO PAY, there would be a lot more available for general onsale. but it appears that tickets are LOWER than the public is willing to pay for many of these events because they sell out so quickly!

when nine inch nails did their small club tour, they came here. the tickets sold out online in less than a minute. anyone i talked to who tried to call or go to the box office did not get ticket. to try to say that you don't need high-speed internet the second a ticket goes onsale these days is naive. the big shows sell out quick. i sat online and refreshed my browser for five mintues before they went on sale to get my tickets and many other people did the same and didn't get tickets. those tickets were $50. then many people sold them on ebay for $500. why not instead realize that some people are willing to pay that price and offer a small portion at that price to the people who are willing to pay?

the big artists that this truly affect are in this for the money. was there ever any doubt before this that madonna was in it for the money? is this SHOCKING? if they weren't in it for the money, they would just give you their albums for free and not charge money for their tours. like you said above, madonna CHOSE this, jay-z CHOSE something similar. if an artist trying to make a living off of what they love is offensive to you, don't support that artist. don't buy the expensive tickets. that's all you can do.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 03:02 PM
i don't see how concert tickets should be a regulated industry. this isn't law or medicine or a dangerous or harmful product. it's just a fukin concert ticket.

millions of people sell tens of thousands of products on sites like ebay and craigslist, yet you propose that concert tickets should be regulated so that only "reputable" sources sell them. what the hell are you talking about?

i did not say only reputable sources should sell tickets. i'm saying that if you provide reputable options, then the artists and people throwing the concerts can benefit instead of just the scalpers. also, there are more options for dispute if the show cancels or your ticket never arrives. when i say "regulate", i don't mean there needs to be a government agency, i mean this industry needs to get it's act together and come up with some guidlines for scalping instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

jesus christ, this is a capitalist society and yet everyone is SHOCKED and APPALLED by general economic theory.

hawkingvsreeve
05-22-2008, 03:04 PM
what exactly constitues a fan? i'm genuinely curious.

should there be a discography test for every concert to test the ticket buyers on whether or not they are "true fans" and then, only then, can they buy tickets? are fans also people who only have high-speed internet access at the time tickets go on sale? it sounds like you also must be poor to be a fan.

that's not how it works. the music industry is an industry like any others. they have a product. some people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for the top quality product. so why shouldn't there be a way for them to to purchase this top quality product from a reputable dealer rather than an unregulated random seller?

music is a hard industry to regulate, because like religion, the industry has a "moral" element that doesn't come into play with as many other industries. so where do we draw the line? should you get in free to an artist's shows if you've bought all their albums and have memorized all the lyrics? or should have to pay more if you've never heard of the band? or what if you're there for just the opening act, should you not be allowed to buy tickets at ALL because you're not a "true fan" of the headlining act?

if concert tickets are selling out as quickly as they are for many of these artists, there is obviously a demand for the product and it's obvious that they could charge higher prices. but they're not, they're only charging higher prices to buy the tickets from a resale for special "perks", such as sitting in the front row or even meeting the artist. and they are still selling many other tickets at a "reasonable/normal" price. why is that so bad? so what if rich people get something "better" than the rest of us? ever heard of "first class"?

and i personally don't agree with scalping because i don't trust the "black market". i don't have a moral judgement on it other than i like that there are currently regulations on how many tickets you can buy for a lot of shows to prevent people from buying out the show, and it sounds like those regulations would still be in place for legitimized resellers.

perhaps the higher revenue from large, but fewer ticket sales such as these could go towards higher quality tours? or towards the band being able to tour more cities?


I understand what you are saying Ivy, but I think as a general fan of music you could appreciate the other point of view a bit more. If artists want to make more money by raising ALL of the ticket prices, well bummer. That's just how it's going to be. Now if I scored good tickets to a show that was going to sell out that I wasn't even going to go (i.e. buying tickets with the explicit intent to sell them for a higher value) and I sold my tickets for 3x what I paid for them, that would not be OK for two reasons. One, I am eliminating the chances of someone who wanted to go to the show to have a fair shot at tickets, and two, it is not my product to make a profit off of. I am all in favor of capitalism, but on a product you own or you can sell fairly. It's not your music and it's not your show, so it's not your money to be made from reselling tickets.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 03:09 PM
I understand what you are saying Ivy, but I think as a general fan of music you could appreciate the other point of view a bit more. If artists want to make more money by raising ALL of the ticket prices, well bummer. That's just how it's going to be. Now if I scored good tickets to a show that was going to sell out that I wasn't even going to go (i.e. buying tickets with the explicit intent to sell them for a higher value) and I sold my tickets for 3x what I paid for them, that would not be OK for two reasons. One, I am eliminating the chances of someone who wanted to go to the show to have a fair shot at tickets, and two, it is not my product to make a profit off of. I am all in favor of capitalism, but on a product you own or you can sell fairly. It's not your music and it's not your show, so it's not your money to be made from reselling tickets.

right, which is why scalping isn't right. but if the artist and production company CHOOSES to hire a company that they feel is reputable enough to resell a percentage of their tickets to people who are willing to pay top dollar, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? there is an OBVIOUS demand, tours are getting pricier (especially with gas prices), they have to make up the cost somewhere.

sure, they could raise tickets across the board, but then many people would be complaining about the overall high prices and not getting anything in return. at least with this service, it sounds like there are some perks for that higher price.

i'm not really seeing the problem. i am all for finding a way to merge the scalping market into the legal market because that black market ain't goin anywhere anytime soon and the people involved with the tour should be getting the profits and not random individuals. i don't go to madonna and jay-z shows though so i doubt this will have a huge impact on me anytime soon.

and i just now realized that the european market will be offereing the higher-priced tickets for people with VIP packages and not the US. sorry, i keep all my windows tiny when i surf at work and i got confused :)

so as far as fan-to-fan sales and allowing scalping there, i'm not really "for that" for the reasons i stated above, but at least there's a little more regulation and the artists are getting some percentage of the profits. if the artist is ok with it, again, i don't really see the problem. i agree more with the european model and would fully endorse that. sorry for the confusion!!!

PassiveTheory
05-22-2008, 03:10 PM
I kinda want to hear Randy, Tom and Ron's take on this before I say anything.

amyzzz
05-22-2008, 03:12 PM
I got tickets to the NIN club tour by waiting in line at the Marquee. I think I got there around 2 or 3 maybe, and people were allowed to line up starting at 12pm. (I can't remember when tickets actually went onsale--5pm maybe??) It sold out in the physical line a little after I got my ticket. It sold out online almost instantaneously. THAT would be case where you go to the box office because there was only ONE box office.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 03:16 PM
I got tickets to the NIN club tour by waiting in line at the Marquee. I think I got there around 2 or 3 maybe, and people were allowed to line up starting at 12pm. (I can't remember when tickets actually went onsale--5pm maybe??) It sold out in the physical line a little after I got my ticket. It sold out online almost instantaneously. THAT would be case where you go to the box office because there was only ONE box office.

WOW, lucky you! how many people were ahead of you? just curious :)

and did you go friday or saturday? i went to friday's show and got to see him knock down that sound guy, LOL.

amyzzz
05-22-2008, 03:20 PM
I'm pretty sure I went Friday. I don't remember a sound guy. I can't remember how many people were ahead of me although I got in line, and I was still on the sidewalk area. Maybe 50 people ahead of me? I thought about going Friday and Saturday, but I felt like that would be greedy. As it is, I called in sick so I could buy my ticket in person.

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 03:27 PM
I'm pretty sure I went Friday. I don't remember a sound guy. I can't remember how many people were ahead of me although I got in line, and I was still on the sidewalk area. Maybe 50 people ahead of me? I thought about going Friday and Saturday, but I felt like that would be greedy. As it is, I called in sick so I could buy my ticket in person.

trent was singing and there was something up with the mic. this sound guy kept coming on stage and trying to fix the problem while trent was singing, but then he'd have to come back and try again. finally trent just pushed him on the ground, got pissed off, they threw water bottles at the people in the sound booth. the music stopped and the lights went down. he gathered his composure and before starting up again, he said something about "and i was having fun too" or something before he finally started singing.

luckyface
05-22-2008, 03:36 PM
trent was singing and there was something up with the mic. this sound guy kept coming on stage and trying to fix the problem while trent was singing, but then he'd have to come back and try again. finally trent just pushed him on the ground, got pissed off, they threw water bottles at the people in the sound booth. the music stopped and the lights went down. he gathered his composure and before starting up again, he said something about "and i was having fun too" or something before he finally started singing.

Supposedly this was staged at many shows.

I don't care, it still ruled. And I got my tickets the old fashioned way: online. AWESOME show, and then got to go to Hawaii about 6 hours after it ended.

Sexecutioner
05-22-2008, 03:47 PM
well, i was going to get some work done, but i guess ill argue scalping instead. there is so much wrong here, its going to take me a while to respond...


they are similar. they are both offering products at a high markup on the black market because there is a demand. instead of ignoring the black market, why not make it legit? maybe this company isn't the best way to go about it, but if we ignore scapling like we ignore drug sales, they aren't just going to go away. the black market is there and has more risks than if there was a legal alternative. not to mention that the artists and the people who are putting on the tours probably want some of that money instead of random people who just happened to buy tickets quickly to resell. no, they're not the same, but they are similar.


they are not similar, because drugs are completely illegal. tickets are not. there is a legal avenue to buy tickets, but none for buying drugs, so the black market is your only choice. also, there is an unlimited supply of drugs, but a concert has a limited amount of tickets.

if drugs were like tickets, there would be a store you could buy drugs from at a reasonable price, but they would only have a limited amount of drugs. so all these "capitalists" would go to these stores and buy up all the drugs, even though they had no intention of actually getting high themselves. then, since they basically cut off the supply of these drugs, they have single handedly increased the demand so much that they can turn around and sell those same drugs to the drug users. except now, only the rich users can afford to get high, and your average joe cant, because now an 1/8 of weed costs $200 bucks. sure, a couple of people that really like their drugs got in line before the scalpers and got their reasonable priced bags, but the rest of the people who couldnt compete with the scalpers either dont get their fix or have to sell their car to get high.

oh, and also, ticket sales dont even compare to the amount of revenue that drugs do. you dont see scalper kingpins with mansions in central america, and you dont hear about people getting gunned down in TJ from a scalper cartel war. its just not the same in any way.



no, if tickets were priced at the VALUE THE PUBLIC IS WILLING TO PAY, there would be a lot more available for general onsale. but it appears that tickets are LOWER than the public is willing to pay for many of these events because they sell out so quickly!

yea, but by doing that, you are still limiting the concerts to only the richer people. the reason there would be more tickets is that a lot of people can't afford to pay that much for a concert. a lot of bands try to keep their ticket prices low so even people with less money can still see them. this IS art. its different than other commodities bought and sold. you are buying an experience. an experience that only happens once, and cant be re-sold. instead of making ticket prices higher, if somehow you could eliminate scalping, there would be more tickets at the general onsale, and everybody would have a fair shot, and pay the same amount.


when nine inch nails did their small club tour, they came here. the tickets sold out online in less than a minute. anyone i talked to who tried to call or go to the box office did not get ticket. to try to say that you don't need high-speed internet the second a ticket goes onsale these days is naive. the big shows sell out quick. i sat online and refreshed my browser for five mintues before they went on sale to get my tickets and many other people did the same and didn't get tickets. those tickets were $50. then many people sold them on ebay for $500.

yea, you know why you didnt get tickets, cuz the fuckin scalpers bought them all! the same capitalists you are defending ruined your chance to see a show. yet you think its NIN fault for pricing their tickets too low? yea, you are right, they should just make ticket prices higher so you and your rich friends can afford it, and fuck everybody else!

oh, and also, its not naive to think you need high speed access. sure, it helps, but ask supre, hes a ticket getting ninja, and he goes to outlets all the time. sometimes its better than doing it online. you just need to know the tricks, and thats what scalpers do, they know the tricks...so well, that most people cant compete with them for small shows like that and get screwed.


why not instead realize that some people are willing to pay that price and offer a small portion at that price to the people who are willing to pay?

this wouldnt fix shit! then there is even less tickets in the general pool, and of those, you would still have scalpers buying them up and reselling them, cuz there is nothing to stop them. unless you make reselling illegal and enforce it, there is no way to stop the anal rape that is scalping.

crazzz2007
05-22-2008, 03:48 PM
I kinda want to hear Randy, Tom and Ron's take on this before I say anything.

why? because you have no opinion of your own? or you need someone to validate your opinion before opening your mouth? or you don't have an opinion so you need steal the opinions of others?

it's one of the above. which is it?

Sexecutioner
05-22-2008, 03:50 PM
right, which is why scalping isn't right. but if the artist and production company CHOOSES to hire a company that they feel is reputable enough to resell a percentage of their tickets to people who are willing to pay top dollar, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? there is an OBVIOUS demand, tours are getting pricier (especially with gas prices), they have to make up the cost somewhere.

this wouldnt be so bad if they eliminated all scalping except this "regulated" form, but they arent. they are just becoming scalpers themselves, taking even more tickets from the general public.

amyzzz
05-22-2008, 03:58 PM
Maybe she means scalping is like illegally reselling prescription drugs like oxycontin for example. hehe.

PassiveTheory
05-22-2008, 04:03 PM
why? because you have no opinion of your own? or you need someone to validate your opinion before opening your mouth? or you don't have an opinion so you need steal the opinions of others?

it's one of the above. which is it?

I don't really have a concrete opinion yet. So the first one.

Also, is it a problem that I'd like to hear other people's take on a subject? Does it bother you that much?

SoulDischarge
05-22-2008, 04:06 PM
I think I found the topic for my final paper for Economics.

Also, it seems like this wouldn't decrease the number of scalpers, just take more of the original sale of tickets away from the public by adding corporate scalpers to the independent scalpers. This will be interesting (and depressing) to watch play out.

bartelby
05-22-2008, 04:09 PM
i think this idea is ridiculous.....

i realize they are simply adapting to a quasi-reality but why not try more anti-scalping techniques (like those used for Glastonbury for example) before sanctioning scalpers? oh right, cause she's a money grubbing whore, i forgot...

chairmenmeow47
05-22-2008, 04:10 PM
well, i was going to get some work done, but i guess ill argue scalping instead. there is so much wrong here, its going to take me a while to respond...



they are not similar, because drugs are completely illegal. tickets are not. there is a legal avenue to buy tickets, but none for buying drugs, so the black market is your only choice. also, there is an unlimited supply of drugs, but a concert has a limited amount of tickets.

if drugs were like tickets, there would be a store you could buy drugs from at a reasonable price, but they would only have a limited amount of drugs. so all these "capitalists" would go to these stores and buy up all the drugs, even though they had no intention of actually getting high themselves. then, since they basically cut off the supply of these drugs, they have single handedly increased the demand so much that they can turn around and sell those same drugs to the drug users. except now, only the rich users can afford to get high, and your average joe cant, because now an 1/8 of weed costs $200 bucks. sure, a couple of people that really like their drugs got in line before the scalpers and got their reasonable priced bags, but the rest of the people who couldnt compete with the scalpers either dont get their fix or have to sell their car to get high.

oh, and also, ticket sales dont even compare to the amount of revenue that drugs do. you dont see scalper kingpins with mansions in central america, and you dont hear about people getting gunned down in TJ from a scalper cartel war. its just not the same in any way.

all i'm going to say is they are SIMILAR. similar does not equal SAME! i'm not arguing they are the same so the rest of your point is moot. all i said was "let's learn from the drug war", implying they were similar. THAT'S IT. but you're so eager to prove me wrong for some reason that you found a point that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD and wrote out several paragraphs to argue the pointless side comment instead of the actual discussion. hope you feel all warm and fuzzy now.


yea, but by doing that, you are still limiting the concerts to only the richer people. the reason there would be more tickets is that a lot of people can't afford to pay that much for a concert. a lot of bands try to keep their ticket prices low so even people with less money can still see them. this IS art. its different than other commodities bought and sold. you are buying an experience. an experience that only happens once, and cant be re-sold. instead of making ticket prices higher, if somehow you could eliminate scalping, there would be more tickets at the general onsale, and everybody would have a fair shot, and pay the same amount.

but the bands ARE keeping most of their tickets low! i don't understand what you are arguing with me about because i pointed out above that most of these tickets are still going to be the same price. it's just that the scalpers will be scalping somewhere else now and in europe they'll be selling a few "vip" type tickets with special perks. how does that affect the rest of the tickets price? therefore your point that only richer people will be going to concerts isn't valid either because this article doesn't state that all ticket prices are being raised.

and yeah, it's art, but art sells for millions and millions of dollars too. some of that art is even sold at high prices at the consent of the artist! and where is this poor person's art market? i'm not understanding your point.



yea, you know why you didnt get tickets, cuz the fuckin scalpers bought them all! the same capitalists you are defending ruined your chance to see a show. yet you think its NIN fault for pricing their tickets too low? yea, you are right, they should just make ticket prices higher so you and your rich friends can afford it, and fuck everybody else!

ha ha ha ha, did you even read my post? i said i got tickets for buying them online. then i also described the show. and yet again, i NEVER said that ALL tickets should be expensive so that only the fat cats can buy up your tickets? jesus christ, if you are going to get this pissy with someone online, at least make sure you undersatnd what you're making fun of first. and guess what, by living in this country and supporting is government, you are supporting capitalism EVERY DAY!


oh, and also, its not naive to think you need high speed access. sure, it helps, but ask supre, hes a ticket getting ninja, and he goes to outlets all the time. sometimes its better than doing it online. you just need to know the tricks, and thats what scalpers do, they know the tricks...so well, that most people cant compete with them for small shows like that and get screwed.

this wouldnt fix shit! then there is even less tickets in the general pool, and of those, you would still have scalpers buying them up and reselling them, cuz there is nothing to stop them. unless you make reselling illegal and enforce it, there is no way to stop the anal rape that is scalping.

oh yeah, offering 10 high priced tickets up close with VIP perks is REALLY going to cut into the general pool significantly *rolls eyes*. you are missing the several times where i point out that it makes sense to sell a SMALL NUMBER of these tickets at a high price. SMALL NUMBER, SMALL PERCENTAGE.

the only thing that will significantly reduce illegal scalping is a legal market that TRULY meets the demand of the marketplace. of course you probably can't get rid of scalping entirely, but the market responds to money, not "feelings". welcome to the real world :)

ok, so go ahead and not read that and yell some more. i know how fun it is to be internet tough guy :)

Sexecutioner
05-22-2008, 04:15 PM
i think this idea is ridiculous.....

i realize they are simply adapting to a quasi-reality but why not try more anti-scalping techniques (like those used for Glastonbury for example) before sanctioning scalpers? oh right, cause she's a money grubbing whore, i forgot...

exactly, there are plenty of ways a band could fight scalping. some choose to pursue it more than others. madonna doesnt give a fuck that there is scalping, as long as she can cash in with them.

pearl jam does a decent job...they save the entire front sections of each show reserved for their fanclub, and you must pick up your tickets the day of the show with photo id to prove you are in the club. they also will ban any member caught trying to scalp fanclub tickets online. i think radiohead should do this. selling tickets through waste is a good start, but if you dont have some way to make sure waste isnt just a bunch of scalpers (which it is), then its not that much help...

Blinken
05-22-2008, 04:42 PM
Ivy is fucking right. It is all simple economics, If the prices of the concerts reflected the true market than we wouldn't have scalpers, problem solved. Oh wait then prices would too high for alot of people. So guess what an artist decides to price their tickets so the "real" fans can go. This creates the NEED for scalpers to balance the fucking market. So you have two choices high ticket prices or some scalpers, you choose. Frankly if it is a show i want to go to i get tickets right when they go on sale problem solved.

Oh and to whoever said they have no right to resell the tickets you're wrong. The ticket is a item they bought and can do whatever the fuck they please. They can use it to see a show, sell it for profit, or wipe their fucking ass with it. If corporations get into the act it will drive the most of the independents out of business. Their is only so much demand for inflated tickets, and the corporation would be much more efficent than the independent broker, so they can undercut a broker and still make more money.

Sexecutioner
05-22-2008, 04:49 PM
lol, im not trying to be internet tough guy, its just that this topic always gets me riled up, dont take it personal chairmen.


but the bands ARE keeping most of their tickets low! i don't understand what you are arguing with me about because i pointed out above that most of these tickets are still going to be the same price. it's just that the scalpers will be scalping somewhere else now and in europe they'll be selling a few "vip" type tickets with special perks. how does that affect the rest of the tickets price? therefore your point that only richer people will be going to concerts isn't valid either because this article doesn't state that all ticket prices are being raised.

i dont know what the hell you are trying to say there. first of all, my point about only the rich being able to get tickets was referring to your original comment when you said
no, if tickets were priced at the VALUE THE PUBLIC IS WILLING TO PAY, there would be a lot more available for general onsale. but it appears that tickets are LOWER than the public is willing to pay for many of these events because they sell out so quickly!

to me that sounds like you were suggesting bands raise the original ticket price so it doesnt sell out as fast. to me, that is an idea that only helps the rich, and fucks over the poor. if thats not what you meant in the first place, then never mind.

and instead of quoting every fuckin paragraph, i will just say this:

you seem to think that this thing with madonna and stub hub is somehow regulating the market, but its not at all. how is there any sort of regulation going on? its still scalpers buying tickets and reselling them to fans for outrageous amounts. they arent regulating the prices, are they? the only difference is that a cut is going to the artist now, who, by the way, already got a cut off the original sale from ticketmaster, so now is getting paid twice. this is not in any way stopping any other form of scalping. people will still be buying up all the tickets from the general onsale and putting their tickets on ebay, stub hub, craigslist, you name it, for way over face value.

and i think you are trying to say that it would be a good idea if they took a small percentage of good seats and sold them for more. and like i said in a previous post, this would only be a good idea if you made all other forms of scalping illegal, and actually enforced it, otherwise its just adding another scalper into the mix, and would actually make things worse.

and about capitalism...please. yes, i know we live in america, and there is nothing wrong with making money. but there is something wrong with taking advantage of people in the process. just cuz something is legal and makes money doesnt mean its the right thing to do. thats what separates good people from assholes, they use their judgment and morals, instead of living by the almighty dollar.